/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2010-07-21 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Jul 21 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  11. # [03:05] <dbaron> tabatkins, so... the apartment rental for the Oslo meeting: "Saturday through Thursday" means "arriving Saturday and leaving Thursday" rather than "all nights from Saturday night through Thursday night" ?
  12. # [03:06] <dbaron> I'm figuring out my flights, I think with the intent of staying a few extra days at the beginning but not at the end.
  13. # [03:07] <tabatkins> dbaron: Right. Saturday night to Wednesday night.
  14. # [03:07] <dbaron> tabatkins, ok, thanks
  15. # [03:07] * dbaron wonders when other people are arriving/leaving
  16. # [03:08] <tabatkins> I think several people are arriving saturday, and several are leaving thursday. Not everyone falls in both camps.
  17. # [03:09] <tabatkins> frex, i know fantasai is arriving saturday, but leaving monday the following week
  18. # [03:09] <dbaron> I added the two itineraries that were sent out to the group meeting page
  19. # [03:09] <tabatkins> Where's that page?
  20. # [03:10] <dbaron> http://www.w3.org/Style/Group/2010/Oslo
  21. # [03:11] <dbaron> I guess I should list Haakon since he lives there...
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  24. # [03:13] <tabatkins> Could you include mine? i'm arriving 10:40 Sat 21st, leaving 12:55 Thu 26th.
  25. # [03:14] <dbaron> tabatkins, done
  26. # [03:15] <tabatkins> danke
  27. # [03:15] <tabatkins> And I know Elika's in the apartment for its duration
  28. # [03:22] <fantasai> yep
  29. # [03:23] * dbaron is leaning towards Fri-Thu, perhaps
  30. # [03:27] * fantasai offers to cook dinner on Sunday, or thereafter
  31. # [03:27] <fantasai> will be getting in too late for that on Saturday
  32. # [03:29] <dbaron> hmmm, some people will be arriving from the webfonts meeting and typecon, looks like...
  33. # [03:29] <dbaron> oh, but that's in Los Angeles
  34. # [03:29] <dbaron> I guess it's only jdaggett who's putting them both on one trip :-)
  35. # [03:31] <fantasai> dsinger's arriving from elsewhere in Europe, I believe
  36. # [03:35] <jdaggett> dbaron: actually two trips
  37. # [03:36] <dbaron> jdaggett, ugh
  38. # [03:36] <jdaggett> mon-fri LA
  39. # [03:36] <jdaggett> sat tokyo
  40. # [03:36] <jdaggett> sun oslo
  41. # [03:36] <jdaggett> weeee
  42. # [03:37] <dbaron> jdaggett, so lax->nrt on fri/sat and nrt->osl on sun?
  43. # [03:38] <jdaggett> basically yeah, lax -> nrt is thurs/fri
  44. # [03:38] <jdaggett> then nrt->osl on sun
  45. # [03:38] <dbaron> so at least you have saturday not on an airplane :-)
  46. # [03:39] <jdaggett> yup
  47. # [03:39] <jdaggett> saturday will be filled with diapers instead
  48. # [03:40] <dbaron> jdaggett, Speaking of this, when are you leaving Oslo? I can add you to the meeting page...
  49. # [03:40] <jdaggett> lemme check
  50. # [03:40] <jdaggett> i fly out fri morn
  51. # [03:41] <jdaggett> everyone else is leaving thurs?
  52. # [03:41] <fantasai> I'm leaving friday
  53. # [03:41] <fantasai> so I'll be around on Thursday
  54. # [03:41] * dbaron is deciding
  55. # [03:41] <fantasai> and probably most of Friday
  56. # [03:41] * dbaron might do Friday-Friday
  57. # [03:41] <dbaron> though that would mean two hotel/apartment switches
  58. # [03:41] <fantasai> heh
  59. # [03:41] <jdaggett> oslo is absolutely lovely in summer
  60. # [03:42] <fantasai> we might be able to extend the apartment for a day, if that would help
  61. # [03:42] <fantasai> it'll just be more expensive that day, depending on who else stays longer
  62. # [03:42] <dbaron> jdaggett, yes, but summer ends around when we're there :-P
  63. # [03:42] <jdaggett> you mean it starts to get cold?
  64. # [03:43] <dbaron> jdaggett, it could, yes.
  65. # [03:43] <jdaggett> ah, will bring some extra clothes then
  66. # [03:43] <dbaron> jdaggett, last Oslo F2F was pretty much the same week, in 2003, and highs were in the low-50s F the last few days we were there
  67. # [03:43] <dbaron> (but in the 70s the day before the meeting)
  68. # [03:43] <jdaggett> ah but we have global warming to thank...
  69. # [03:44] <dbaron> also, http://www.weather.com/weather/tenday/NOXX0029 isn't exactly warm
  70. # [03:45] <jdaggett> dude, that's perfect!!!!!
  71. # [03:46] <jdaggett> it's supposed to get up to 95 tomorrow here in tokyo
  72. # [03:46] <fantasai> and humid, I imagine
  73. # [03:46] * fantasai was there in september, and it was quite humid
  74. # [03:46] <jdaggett> yup
  75. # [03:46] <jdaggett> at least there's no stinky trash that piles up like nyc
  76. # [03:47] <fantasai> hah
  77. # [03:47] * fantasai is getting sleepy
  78. # [03:47] <jdaggett> time for a walk, no?
  79. # [03:47] <jdaggett> an afternoon constitutional
  80. # [03:47] <fantasai> that might be a good idea
  81. # [03:47] <fantasai> shift from here to starbucks or something
  82. # [03:48] <fantasai> have a hot chocolate and try not to fall asleep there...
  83. # [03:48] <jdaggett> there's a park a couple blocks away...
  84. # [03:48] <fantasai> yeah, but I can't work from there :)
  85. # [03:48] <fantasai> also it's kinda cold and windy atm
  86. # [03:49] <jdaggett> mmm, cold and windy, mmmm
  87. # [03:49] * fantasai wants to finish her proposal for issue 120
  88. # [03:49] <fantasai> it's a long one
  89. # [03:50] * fantasai packs up, bbiab
  90. # [03:51] * jdaggett back to wandering through tryserver logs, looking for acorns
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  94. # [05:01] * fantasai changes topic to 'CSS Working Group discussion -- logs at http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/css/'
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  102. # [08:26] * Topic is 'CSS Working Group discussion -- logs at http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/css/'
  103. # [08:26] * Set by fantasai on Wed Jul 21 04:59:11
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  117. # [17:52] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/07/21-CSS-irc
  118. # [17:52] <plinss_> rrsagent make logs public
  119. # [17:52] <plinss_> rrsagent, make logs public
  120. # [17:52] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, plinss_
  121. # [17:52] <plinss_> zakim, this will be style
  122. # [17:52] <Zakim> ok, plinss_; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 10 minutes
  123. # [17:54] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@76.104.131.10)
  124. # [18:01] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  125. # [18:01] <Zakim> + +1.206.324.aaaa
  126. # [18:02] <Zakim> + +1.858.216.aabb
  127. # [18:02] <plinss_> zakim, aabb is me
  128. # [18:02] <Zakim> +plinss_; got it
  129. # [18:03] * Joins: bradk (bradk@67.188.133.45)
  130. # [18:04] * bradk will be here for the first part of the call only
  131. # [18:04] * Joins: smfr (smfr@17.203.14.12)
  132. # [18:04] <arronei> I will be on the call in about 10 minutes if you could hold a little for the test suite update till I am on that would be great.
  133. # [18:04] <Zakim> +David_Baron
  134. # [18:04] <Zakim> +Bert
  135. # [18:05] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  136. # [18:05] <Zakim> + +1.408.636.aacc
  137. # [18:05] <smfr> Zakim, aacc is me
  138. # [18:05] <Zakim> +smfr; got it
  139. # [18:05] <Zakim> + +1.408.536.aadd
  140. # [18:05] * Joins: szilles (chatzilla@192.150.10.200)
  141. # [18:05] <dbaron> Zakim, aadd is SteveZ
  142. # [18:05] <Zakim> +SteveZ; got it
  143. # [18:05] <dbaron> Zakim, who is on the phone?
  144. # [18:05] <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.206.324.aaaa, plinss_, David_Baron, Bert, [Microsoft], smfr, SteveZ
  145. # [18:06] <Zakim> +??P24
  146. # [18:06] <sylvaing> Zakim, aaa is sylvaing
  147. # [18:06] <Zakim> sorry, sylvaing, I do not recognize a party named 'aaa'
  148. # [18:06] <sylvaing> Zakim, aaaa is sylvaing
  149. # [18:06] <Zakim> +sylvaing; got it
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  151. # [18:07] <Zakim> + +1.650.275.aaee
  152. # [18:07] <bradk> Zakim, aaee is me
  153. # [18:07] <Zakim> +bradk; got it
  154. # [18:08] <dbaron> Zakim, who is on the phone?
  155. # [18:08] <Zakim> On the phone I see sylvaing, plinss_, David_Baron, Bert, [Microsoft], smfr, SteveZ, ??P24, bradk
  156. # [18:09] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
  157. # [18:09] <arronei> zakim, microsoft.a is me
  158. # [18:09] <Zakim> +arronei; got it
  159. # [18:09] * Joins: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.169)
  160. # [18:10] <Zakim> + +46.0.94.0.aaff
  161. # [18:10] <Zakim> +ChrisL
  162. # [18:14] <szilles> scribenick: szilles
  163. # [18:14] <szilles> <szilles> 1. Republish 2007 Snapshot, MQ CR
  164. # [18:14] <szilles> <szilles> BB: no objection to re-publishing
  165. # [18:14] <szilles> <szilles> Resolved: Publish http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/ED-css3-mediaqueries-20100714/
  166. # [18:15] <ChrisL> In media queries, is it still true that "HTML has not yet been normatively updated to use media queries in the media attribute."?
  167. # [18:15] <szilles> Review sections 2 and 3 of MQ
  168. # [18:15] <ChrisL> thought html5 had been updated to use media queries
  169. # [18:17] <szilles> Resolution above was for Snapshot not MQ, MQ is now topic of discussion
  170. # [18:17] <ChrisL> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/common-microsyntaxes.html#mq
  171. # [18:18] <szilles> PL: Everythng else in MQ refers to HTML4
  172. # [18:19] <szilles> CL: not much point in refering to HTML 4.01 at this point
  173. # [18:19] <dbaron> If the reference is explaining the history, it should probably refer to the spec that was there at the time.
  174. # [18:20] <szilles> EE: There is no reason to have a forward reference to HTML5
  175. # [18:20] <szilles> CL: Since the reference is non normative, there is no reason not to update the references to HTML5 to be more timely
  176. # [18:21] <szilles> DB: the references to HTML4 are mostly indicating the history of the development of the MQ spec
  177. # [18:22] <szilles> BB: HTML5 is only a draft so we cannot assert that it is done and will not change.
  178. # [18:22] <szilles> CL: we could say that "the current draft of HTML5 has added ..."
  179. # [18:23] <szilles> Action (Anna): fix the reference to HTML5 as above
  180. # [18:23] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  181. # [18:23] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - (Anna)
  182. # [18:23] <fantasai> s/Anna/Anne/
  183. # [18:23] * ChrisL Anne not Anna
  184. # [18:24] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Publish mediaqueries after updating note about media queries in HTML to point to HTMl5
  185. # [18:24] <szilles> Resolved: Publish MQ (URL above) with change suggested by CL
  186. # [18:26] <szilles> Resolved: Change "A minimum of another six months of the CR period must elapse" to the minimum CR period
  187. # [18:26] <szilles> EE: I believe the test suite exists it just needs to be posted
  188. # [18:27] * bradk has to leave the call now. Bye.
  189. # [18:28] <szilles> BB: Pub Rules require some date
  190. # [18:28] * Quits: bradk (bradk@67.188.133.45) (Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/ )
  191. # [18:28] <Zakim> -bradk
  192. # [18:28] <szilles> CL: four weeks is a reasonalbe time; it would not constrain us and the test cases still need to be posted
  193. # [18:29] <szilles> s/reasonalbe/reasonable/
  194. # [18:29] <szilles> Test Suite
  195. # [18:30] <szilles> AE: Sent one mail on the likely invalid tests; need people to look at to see if they agree
  196. # [18:30] <szilles> AE: About to send test that do not pass in any browser; need people to check the tests in their area of responsibility
  197. # [18:31] <szilles> s/test/tests/
  198. # [18:31] <szilles> AE: Would love to have responses ideally by next phone call, but at least by the call in two weeks.
  199. # [18:33] <szilles> PL: Has anyone been working on their implementation reports?
  200. # [18:34] <szilles> AE: is there a template for the report?
  201. # [18:34] <szilles> EE: not, but I could make one if we agree on what it should have
  202. # [18:34] <szilles> AE and EE: to talk offline to agree on the format for the report
  203. # [18:35] <szilles> PL: Is the test harness that was developed still functional?
  204. # [18:35] <szilles> EE: not at all sure; I have not looked at it.
  205. # [18:35] <szilles> PL: is it worth spending some time to get that running again; it was designed to gather statistic and be a start to an implementation report
  206. # [18:36] <szilles> EE to contact Tab for help on this; PL can help and contact Matt Bonner
  207. # [18:36] <szilles> Open Issues:
  208. # [18:37] <plinss_> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-110
  209. # [18:37] <szilles> Issue 110
  210. # [18:39] <szilles> DB: I believe Boris has objected (threatening formally) to this proposal
  211. # [18:39] <szilles> DB: The objection is that there is currently interoperable behavior
  212. # [18:40] <szilles> DB: The behavior is that abs pos'd elements generate cells
  213. # [18:40] <szilles> EE: the problem is that the number of cells generated is somewhat strange
  214. # [18:41] <szilles> EE: I cannot think of any other place where moving an abs pos element out of normal flow generates normal flow content
  215. # [18:42] <szilles> EE: the choices seems to be between defining the behavior the way authors would want it or the way that implementers would want it
  216. # [18:43] <szilles> SZ: How common is having an abs pos element as the sole content of a table cell?
  217. # [18:44] <szilles> s/sole content of a table cell/having a abs pos element as the direct content of a table cell or equivalent situations/
  218. # [18:46] <szilles> SZ: Is this enough of an edge case; is it sufficiently uncommon that leaving the existing behavior is OK if not really desirable
  219. # [18:46] <szilles> PL: That is my feeling
  220. # [18:47] <szilles> EE: There is nothing in the spec that would cause an abs pos element to have an affect on normal flow
  221. # [18:47] <szilles> EE: But, in this one case, the notion of a "placeholder" was introduced to describe the effect that was happening in tables
  222. # [18:48] <fantasai> But all the browser implementations implement abspos by introducing a "placeholder" in their formatting structure
  223. # [18:48] <fantasai> In most cases, this placeholder is not detectable
  224. # [18:48] <fantasai> but in table box generation it is detectable
  225. # [18:49] <fantasai> And so bz is saying to codify its existence, at least in this one case where it is detectable
  226. # [18:49] <fantasai> because all implementations chose to implement abspos this way and we have interop on it
  227. # [18:49] <fantasai> even though it makes no sense from the spec's point of view
  228. # [18:49] <Zakim> -Bert
  229. # [18:50] <Zakim> +Bert
  230. # [18:50] <szilles> PL: Does anyone have an objection to BZ's proposal
  231. # [18:50] <szilles> EE: I would like more input from the other implementers as to which way they would like to go
  232. # [18:52] <Bert> Is it the case that <tr><td psoition:absolute>a <td>b <td>c looks the same as <tr><td>b <td>c ?
  233. # [18:52] <szilles> CL: Other implementers, like Prince?
  234. # [18:53] <fantasai> Bert: <tr><td>a<td position:absolute>b<td>c</tr>
  235. # [18:53] <fantasai> Bert: looks the same as <tr><td>a<td><td>c</tr>
  236. # [18:53] <szilles> PL: Should this case in fact be codified or should it just be left undefined?
  237. # [18:54] <fantasai> Bert: Also, <tr><td>a<td position:absolute>b<td position:absolute>c<td>d</tr> looks the same as the above,too
  238. # [18:54] <szilles> CL: That depends on whether the other implemetations are willing to change; if not we would have to leave it undefined.
  239. # [18:54] <szilles> DB: It may be the case that other implementations do not even implement this part of the spec.
  240. # [18:56] <szilles> SZ: we need to send a note to the implementers we are aware of and ask which proposals they can live (and would be willing to change to)
  241. # [18:57] <fantasai> ACTION fantasai: Write proposal to deal with abspos in table box generation according to bz's proposal
  242. # [18:57] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  243. # [18:57] * RRSAgent records action 1
  244. # [18:57] <trackbot> Created ACTION-246 - Write proposal to deal with abspos in table box generation according to bz's proposal [on Elika Etemad - due 2010-07-28].
  245. # [18:57] <szilles> action (EE): Add BZ's abs pos proposal to the proposal that I have already published
  246. # [18:57] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  247. # [18:57] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - (EE)
  248. # [18:58] <plinss_> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-138
  249. # [18:58] <szilles> Issue 138
  250. # [18:58] <szilles> PL: this is awaiting feedback from Alex
  251. # [18:59] <szilles> SG: Alex thought the proposal was reasonable
  252. # [18:59] <dbaron> I don't see issue 138 on the issues list.
  253. # [19:00] <plinss_> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Jul/0329.html
  254. # [19:00] <szilles> EE: I recall the float should move with rel pos of the containing block
  255. # [19:00] <fantasai> dbaron, try force-reloading. For some reason the issues list is being weird
  256. # [19:00] <dbaron> fantasai, reload woked
  257. # [19:01] <szilles> DB: Tab has revised the proposal
  258. # [19:01] * Quits: arronei (arronei@131.107.0.75) (Ping timeout)
  259. # [19:02] <szilles> Question about the "contained in the block box" should not that be contained in the in-line block
  260. # [19:02] <dbaron> also http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Jul/0331.html
  261. # [19:02] <szilles> DB: there are two messages in the thread to that effect
  262. # [19:02] <dbaron> I'm happy with the revised proposal.
  263. # [19:02] <szilles> DB: I am happy with the revised proposal
  264. # [19:02] <smfr> me too
  265. # [19:02] <szilles> BB: it describes what I expect so I am happy to
  266. # [19:03] <szilles> Resoved: Proposal as modified by the two message is accepted
  267. # [19:03] <Bert> s/happy to/happy too/
  268. # [19:03] <szilles> s/Resoved/Resolved/
  269. # [19:04] <Zakim> -ChrisL
  270. # [19:04] <Zakim> -smfr
  271. # [19:04] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  272. # [19:04] <Zakim> -David_Baron
  273. # [19:04] <Zakim> - +46.0.94.0.aaff
  274. # [19:04] <Zakim> -arronei
  275. # [19:04] <Zakim> -sylvaing
  276. # [19:04] <szilles> Meeting adjourns at 10 PDT
  277. # [19:04] <Zakim> -Bert
  278. # [19:04] <Zakim> -plinss_
  279. # [19:04] <szilles> Zakim, make minutes
  280. # [19:04] <Zakim> I don't understand 'make minutes', szilles
  281. # [19:04] <Zakim> -??P24
  282. # [19:04] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@76.104.131.10) (Quit: sylvaing)
  283. # [19:04] <szilles> zakim, minutes
  284. # [19:04] <Zakim> I don't understand 'minutes', szilles
  285. # [19:05] <fantasai> RRSAgent: make minutes
  286. # [19:05] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/21-CSS-minutes.html fantasai
  287. # [19:05] <fantasai> RRSAgent: make logs public
  288. # [19:05] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, fantasai
  289. # [19:05] <szilles> zakim, attendees
  290. # [19:05] <Zakim> I don't understand 'attendees', szilles
  291. # [19:06] <fantasai> zakim will make that report once everyone's hung up
  292. # [19:06] <fantasai> usually
  293. # [19:06] <fantasai> I guess someone is still on the call?
  294. # [19:07] * Joins: arronei (arronei@131.107.0.74)
  295. # [19:07] * Parts: smfr (smfr@17.203.14.12)
  296. # [19:09] <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, SteveZ, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
  297. # [19:09] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  298. # [19:09] <Zakim> Attendees were +1.206.324.aaaa, +1.858.216.aabb, plinss_, David_Baron, Bert, [Microsoft], +1.408.636.aacc, smfr, +1.408.536.aadd, SteveZ, sylvaing, +1.650.275.aaee, bradk, arronei,
  299. # [19:09] <Zakim> ... +46.0.94.0.aaff, ChrisL
  300. # [19:10] * Quits: szilles (chatzilla@192.150.10.200) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.6/20100625231939])
  301. # [19:37] * Quits: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.169) (Quit: Fire on main board error, client combusted)
  302. # [19:42] * Quits: CesarAcebal (acebal@85.152.177.64) (Quit: CesarAcebal)
  303. # [20:18] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@98.234.51.190) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  304. # [20:50] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.240)
  305. # [21:19] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  306. # [21:19] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.169)
  307. # [21:51] * Joins: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.169)
  308. # [23:03] * Quits: miketaylr (miketaylr@38.117.156.163) (Client exited)
  309. # [23:11] * Quits: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.169) (Quit: Fire on main board error, client combusted)
  310. # Session Close: Thu Jul 22 00:00:00 2010

The end :)