/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2010-08-11 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Aug 11 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  21. # [10:59] <dbaron> Is there something wrong with me if I remember a CSS issue by number while I'm trying to fall asleep, and figure out a solution to it?
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  40. # [17:37] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.169)
  41. # [17:37] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/08/11-CSS-irc
  42. # [17:37] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
  43. # [17:37] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 25 minutes
  44. # [17:37] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
  45. # [17:37] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
  46. # [17:37] * glazou is now known as glazou_bbl
  47. # [17:38] * Quits: arronei (arronei@131.107.0.117) (Quit: arronei)
  48. # [17:48] * Joins: arronei (arronei@131.107.0.75)
  49. # [17:54] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  50. # [17:54] <Zakim> +dsinger
  51. # [17:55] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@67.218.106.167)
  52. # [17:56] <dsinger> Zakim, who is here?
  53. # [17:56] <Zakim> On the phone I see dsinger
  54. # [17:56] <Zakim> On IRC I see dsinger, arronei, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou_bbl, MoZ, dbaron, nimbupani, gsnedders, Curt`, szilles, miketaylr, krijnh, plinss, karl, lgombos, tabatkins, Hixie, Peter,
  55. # [17:56] <Zakim> ... lhnz, anne, fantasai, Bert, trackbot, jgraham
  56. # [17:56] <dsinger> zakim, mute dsinger
  57. # [17:56] <Zakim> sorry, dsinger, muting is not permitted when only one person is present
  58. # [17:56] * Quits: MoZ (chatzilla@82.230.92.154) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722150226])
  59. # [17:57] * Joins: oyvind (oyvinds@213.236.208.22)
  60. # [17:57] <Zakim> -dsinger
  61. # [17:57] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  62. # [17:57] <Zakim> Attendees were dsinger
  63. # [17:57] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@67.218.106.167) (Quit: Rooms • iPhone IRC Client • http://www.roomsapp.mobi)
  64. # [17:57] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  65. # [17:57] * Joins: dethbakin (dethbakin@67.180.129.108)
  66. # [17:58] <Zakim> +dsinger
  67. # [17:58] * glazou_bbl is now known as glazou
  68. # [17:58] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@67.218.106.167)
  69. # [17:58] <dsinger> zakim, who is here?
  70. # [17:58] <Zakim> On the phone I see dsinger
  71. # [17:58] <Zakim> On IRC I see dsinger, dethbakin, oyvind, arronei, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, dbaron, nimbupani, gsnedders, Curt`, szilles, miketaylr, krijnh, plinss, karl, lgombos, tabatkins, Hixie,
  72. # [17:58] <Zakim> ... Peter, lhnz, anne, fantasai, Bert, trackbot, jgraham
  73. # [18:01] <Zakim> + +1.617.650.aaaa
  74. # [18:01] <dethbakin> Zakim, aaaa is me
  75. # [18:01] <Zakim> +dethbakin; got it
  76. # [18:01] <dsinger> zakim, mute dsinger
  77. # [18:01] <Zakim> dsinger should now be muted
  78. # [18:02] <Zakim> +glazou
  79. # [18:02] <glazou> Zakim, who is here?
  80. # [18:02] <Zakim> On the phone I see dsinger (muted), dethbakin, glazou
  81. # [18:02] <Zakim> On IRC I see dsinger, dethbakin, oyvind, arronei, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, dbaron, nimbupani, gsnedders, Curt`, szilles, miketaylr, krijnh, plinss, karl, lgombos, tabatkins, Hixie,
  82. # [18:02] <Zakim> ... Peter, lhnz, anne, fantasai, Bert, trackbot, jgraham
  83. # [18:02] * dsinger morning all!
  84. # [18:02] <glazou> hi dsinger
  85. # [18:02] * Curt` monrin.
  86. # [18:02] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  87. # [18:02] <arronei> zakim, microsoft is me
  88. # [18:02] <Zakim> +arronei; got it
  89. # [18:03] <Zakim> +plinss_
  90. # [18:03] <Zakim> +??P20
  91. # [18:03] * dsinger s/is/has/ and then others are shown as from usoft as well
  92. # [18:04] <plinss> zakim, ?P20 is fantasai
  93. # [18:04] <Zakim> sorry, plinss, I do not recognize a party named '?P20'
  94. # [18:04] <Zakim> +David_Baron
  95. # [18:04] <dsinger> Zakim, ??p20 is fantasai
  96. # [18:04] <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
  97. # [18:05] * dsinger raining in Oslo today, I think
  98. # [18:05] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.169)
  99. # [18:05] <Zakim> + +47.21.65.aabb
  100. # [18:05] <glazou> dsinger: trying to make us avoid next ftf ?-)
  101. # [18:05] <Zakim> +sylvaing
  102. # [18:05] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.169) (Client exited)
  103. # [18:06] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.169)
  104. # [18:06] * dsinger hoping it gets rain out of the system by then...
  105. # [18:06] * dsinger +47?
  106. # [18:07] <glazou> dsinger: sun for the 22nd, probability 2/5
  107. # [18:07] * dsinger who us the masked man fr country 47?
  108. # [18:08] * dbaron Zakim, who is on the phone?
  109. # [18:08] * Zakim sees on the phone: dsinger (muted), dethbakin, glazou, arronei, plinss_, fantasai, David_Baron, +47.21.65.aabb, sylvaing
  110. # [18:09] <Zakim> +SteveZ
  111. # [18:10] * Joins: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.169)
  112. # [18:10] <dbaron> ScribeNick: dbaron
  113. # [18:10] <dbaron> Zakim, +47 is howcome
  114. # [18:10] <Zakim> +howcome; got it
  115. # [18:10] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  116. # [18:10] <dbaron> Topic: face-to-face meeting
  117. # [18:10] <dbaron> howcome: any questions about f2f?
  118. # [18:11] <Zakim> +SteveZ
  119. # [18:11] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@67.218.106.167) (Quit: Rooms • iPhone IRC Client • http://www.roomsapp.mobi)
  120. # [18:11] <Zakim> +Bert
  121. # [18:11] <Zakim> +ChrisL
  122. # [18:12] <dbaron> SteveZ: Wanted to add one thing to agenda; will send email.
  123. # [18:12] <dbaron> Topic: test suite
  124. # [18:12] <dbaron> fantasai: Arron and I went through issues list and identified which issues need tests.
  125. # [18:13] <dbaron> fantasai: want to do beta3 at end of week
  126. # [18:13] * Joins: howcome (howcome@80.203.20.237)
  127. # [18:13] <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
  128. # [18:13] <dbaron> Topic: CSS 2.1 issue 185
  129. # [18:13] * Joins: JohnJansen (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  130. # [18:13] <fantasai> fantasai: Please try to get in fixes by the end of the week
  131. # [18:13] <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-185
  132. # [18:14] <dbaron> I had a proposal: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Aug/0178.html
  133. # [18:14] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@76.104.131.10)
  134. # [18:14] <fantasai> fantasai: The mailing list also brought up the question of negative-height floats
  135. # [18:15] <fantasai> dbaron: I do prefer the idea that zero-height floats don't push line boxes, because it's easier to think about the range we're dealing with
  136. # [18:17] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.169) (Quit: Core Breach)
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  138. # [18:18] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@17.197.20.4)
  139. # [18:19] <fantasai> fantasai: And negative height floats would also be excluded because they can't satisfy both c and d at the same time
  140. # [18:19] <Zakim> +[Apple]
  141. # [18:19] <dsinger> zakim, [apple] has dsinger
  142. # [18:19] <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
  143. # [18:19] <Zakim> -dsinger
  144. # [18:19] <dbaron> ok, so maybe s/is a vertical position/exists a point/ and add Note: this means that floats with zero height or negative height do not move line boxes.
  145. # [18:19] <fantasai> fantasai: I would be okay with this if there was a note saying that zero-height floats don't affect line boxes (and maybe explain why that's the case wrt wording in the text)
  146. # [18:20] <ChrisL> maybe change "when there is" to "when there exists" and
  147. # [18:20] <fantasai> fantasai: Could we change "not above" to "below or at"? I think that would help
  148. # [18:20] <ChrisL> that is to "that satisfies all of these four conditions
  149. # [18:22] <fantasai> Bert: So this means the zero or negative height float won't affect line boxes next to it
  150. # [18:22] <fantasai> Bert: but if it has clear, it still can affect layout around it
  151. # [18:22] <fantasai> Bert: What about floats next to floats, are those rules clear?
  152. # [18:22] <fantasai> dbaron: I think they're clear, but it might be worth rereading
  153. # [18:23] <fantasai> Note: this means that floats with zero height or negative
  154. # [18:23] <fantasai> height do not move line boxes.
  155. # [18:23] <fantasai> oops
  156. # [18:23] <fantasai> In other words, we could add a sentence after (maybe immediately
  157. # [18:23] <fantasai> after, maybe a little later): # However, line boxes created next to the float are shortened to # make room for the margin box of the float.
  158. # [18:23] <fantasai> that says something like: | A line box is next to a float when there exists a vertical position | that satisfies all of these four conditions: | (a) at or below the top of the line box, (b) at or above the | bottom of the line box, (c) below the top margin edge of the | float, and (d) above the bottom margin edge of the float. | Note: this means that floats with zero height or negative
  159. # [18:23] <fantasai> | heght do not m ove line boxes.
  160. # [18:23] <fantasai> ....
  161. # [18:23] <fantasai> Arron: I have a testcase for zero-height floats in the middle of the line box.
  162. # [18:24] <fantasai> ...
  163. # [18:24] <fantasai> dbaron: Last I checked neither Opera nor Webkit handle positive height floats in the middle of the line anyway
  164. # [18:25] <dbaron> maybe Opera is ok; my memory is a little fuzzy
  165. # [18:26] <fantasai> dbaron and Arron discuss the testcase
  166. # [18:28] <arronei> http://test.csswg.org/source/contributors/microsoft/incoming/float-zero-height.htm
  167. # [18:28] <fantasai> http://pastebin.mozilla.org/766057
  168. # [18:29] <gsnedders> Opera indeed doesn't handle it
  169. # [18:32] <fantasai> Peter: Any other comments on the proposal?
  170. # [18:32] <fantasai> ChrisL: I'm hearing disagreement on which implementations need to change, but everyone seems to like the wording.
  171. # [18:32] <fantasai> RESOLVED: dbaron's proposal accepted as modified above
  172. # [18:33] <fantasai> Peter: CSS2.1 Issue 118
  173. # [18:33] <plinss> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-118
  174. # [18:34] * fantasai is happy with the proposal if Steve and Bert are happy with it
  175. # [18:35] <glazou> +1
  176. # [18:35] <fantasai> Steve: The existing text makes a reference to centering, but it's not clear what it centers or what it means.
  177. # [18:36] <fantasai> Steve: The text I suggested clarifies that, and Bert confirms that's what it means
  178. # [18:36] <glazou> Zakim, mute me
  179. # [18:36] <Zakim> glazou should now be muted
  180. # [18:36] <fantasai> Bert: I will try to avoid the word "centering"; your text describes what actually should be done.
  181. # [18:37] <glazou> Zakim, unmute me
  182. # [18:37] <Zakim> glazou should no longer be muted
  183. # [18:38] <fantasai> WG votes to resolve on this now and protest Bert's edits afterwards if necessary
  184. # [18:38] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Bert's proposal accepted with Steve's modifications as to be edited in by Bert
  185. # [18:39] <plinss> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-144
  186. # [18:42] <fantasai> dbaron: Given the new model for text decoration that we haven't implemented yet, I would follow Opera's lead on question one
  187. # [18:42] <fantasai> arronei: I'm running the tests and everyone shows the underline
  188. # [18:42] <fantasai> ChrisL: Is there a use case for showing the nderline under invisible text?
  189. # [18:43] <fantasai> fantasai: No, it's just something that falls out of the previous model.
  190. # [18:43] <fantasai> fantasai: It doesn't make much sense to show the underline if you're trying to hide something.
  191. # [18:44] <glazou> Gecko 2.0 underlines once the whole thing
  192. # [18:44] <fantasai> ChrisL: Then perhaps we should change it to be more useful, not as likely to break things.
  193. # [18:44] <fantasai> ChrisL: But if we don't have implementations, that will hold back PR.
  194. # [18:44] <fantasai> Steve: We could go with "it's undefined".
  195. # [18:45] <fantasai> dbaron: I think we're already at the place where most implementations disagree with the spec on text-decoration, and we're planning to fix it but we haven't gotten around to it yet
  196. # [18:45] <fantasai> Steve: So you're going to have to change it to match the current 2.1 text anyway
  197. # [18:45] <fantasai> Steve: If that's true, fine, we'll just make it another piece of the model change.
  198. # [18:46] <fantasai> fantasai: we could change it and mark it at-risk
  199. # [18:47] <fantasai> Seem to have agreement that if the text isn't there, the underline shouldn't be either.
  200. # [18:48] <fantasai> Bert: I would expect to see the blue line, but not the red one in that email
  201. # [18:51] <fantasai> fantasai summarizes Appendix E's contents
  202. # [18:51] <fantasai> fantasai: If you want the underline visible but not the text, you can make the text transparent.
  203. # [18:53] <fantasai> Bert and Peter discuss the underlining model -- specifically that the underline is continuous through the child elements, and if they have underlines they are additional (may paint over)
  204. # [18:54] <fantasai> Steve: I'm confused about what the current model is.
  205. # [18:54] <fantasai> Steve: There's two ways of thinking about it. One is, the property draws an underline
  206. # [18:54] <fantasai> Steve: The other way is that it turns on a mode so that each glyph draws its own piece of the underline
  207. # [18:54] <fantasai> Steve: I thought that the latter model is what the new one is doing
  208. # [18:56] <fantasai> fantasai explains the current model
  209. # [18:58] <fantasai> fantasai: The question is now whether the underline is drawn with the color *and* visibility of the underlining element, or it uses the visibility of the element with the text being underline
  210. # [18:58] <fantasai> dd
  211. # [18:58] <fantasai> Steve: Suppose that you're animating the text to disappear, so the underline is there. What should happen at the end of the animation?
  212. # [18:59] <fantasai> Steve: Does the underline now jump to the text around it?
  213. # [18:59] * fantasai is confused
  214. # [18:59] * dsinger oh ah ow
  215. # [18:59] * dsinger ??
  216. # [18:59] <fantasai> Bert: The underline's position can be adapted to the child elements; it doesn't have to but it may.
  217. # [18:59] <fantasai> (but it has to be a single line per linebox)
  218. # [19:00] * glazou digresses a bit and sees that if a hidden span still has underline from the parent, its area has a decoration but is not selectable
  219. # [19:03] <fantasai> fantasai: Consider also if I set text-decoration on a <div> with block-level children
  220. # [19:03] <fantasai> fantasai: If you set visibility hidden on one of them, would it disappear the text but not the underlining?
  221. # [19:05] * sylvaing must resist the urge to bring up underlines with text on a path
  222. # [19:05] <fantasai> Arron: Older versions of IE don't draw the underline, but they're just mostly broken
  223. # [19:05] <glazou> unicorn underlines
  224. # [19:05] <Zakim> -ChrisL
  225. # [19:05] <fantasai> Over time
  226. # [19:05] <fantasai> Meeting closed.
  227. # [19:05] <Zakim> -arronei
  228. # [19:05] <Zakim> -dethbakin
  229. # [19:05] <Zakim> -sylvaing
  230. # [19:05] <Zakim> -Bert
  231. # [19:05] <Zakim> -plinss_
  232. # [19:05] * dsinger bye
  233. # [19:05] <Zakim> -[Apple]
  234. # [19:05] <Zakim> -glazou
  235. # [19:05] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@17.197.20.4) (Quit: dsinger)
  236. # [19:05] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  237. # [19:05] <Zakim> -howcome
  238. # [19:06] <Zakim> -David_Baron
  239. # [19:07] * Quits: glazou (glazou@85.168.30.158) (Quit: glazou)
  240. # [19:10] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@76.104.131.10) (Quit: sylvaing)
  241. # [19:11] <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, fantasai, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
  242. # [19:11] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  243. # [19:11] <Zakim> Attendees were dsinger, +1.617.650.aaaa, dethbakin, glazou, arronei, plinss_, David_Baron, fantasai, +47.21.65.aabb, sylvaing, SteveZ, howcome, Bert, ChrisL
  244. # [19:11] * Quits: dethbakin (dethbakin@67.180.129.108) (Quit: dethbakin)
  245. # [19:14] * Quits: oyvind (oyvinds@213.236.208.22) (Quit: oyvind)
  246. # [19:30] * Quits: JohnJansen (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
  247. # [19:34] * Quits: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.169) (Quit: Fire on main board error, client combusted)
  248. # [20:09] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@17.197.20.4)
  249. # [20:43] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  250. # [20:43] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.169)
  251. # [21:39] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@17.197.20.4) (Quit: dsinger)
  252. # [21:54] <tabatkins> fantasai: You interested in staying in the Oslo apartment an extra day with dbaron and tantek?
  253. # [22:13] <fantasai> tabatkins: yes
  254. # [22:14] <tabatkins> k, I'll confirm with the rental dude.
  255. # [22:23] <dbaron> ooh, fantasai is around
  256. # [22:24] <dbaron> (do we know when the other people staying in the Apartment are leaving?)
  257. # [23:39] * Quits: karl (karlcow@128.30.54.58) (Client exited)
  258. # Session Close: Thu Aug 12 00:00:00 2010

The end :)