/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2010-08-18 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Aug 18 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  38. # [17:21] * Peter` is now known as Peter
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  41. # [17:35] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.169)
  42. # [17:35] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/08/18-CSS-irc
  43. # [17:35] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
  44. # [17:35] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 27 minutes
  45. # [17:35] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
  46. # [17:35] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
  47. # [17:52] * Joins: oyvind (oyvinds@213.236.208.22)
  48. # [17:55] <glazou> Zakim, code?
  49. # [17:55] <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), glazou
  50. # [17:59] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  51. # [17:59] <Zakim> +David_Baron
  52. # [18:00] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  53. # [18:01] * Joins: John (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  54. # [18:01] * glazou cannot join, zakim bridge disconnecting after 1st ring
  55. # [18:01] * Joins: dethbakin (dethbakin@67.180.129.108)
  56. # [18:01] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  57. # [18:01] <Zakim> + +1.858.216.aaaa
  58. # [18:01] <plinss_> zakim, aaaa is me
  59. # [18:01] <Zakim> +plinss_; got it
  60. # [18:01] <glazou> same thing with regular phone
  61. # [18:01] <glazou> plinss: zakim bridge horked here
  62. # [18:01] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  63. # [18:02] <arronei> zakim, microsoft is me
  64. # [18:02] <Zakim> +arronei; got it
  65. # [18:02] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  66. # [18:02] <Zakim> + +1.617.650.aabb
  67. # [18:02] <dethbakin> Zakim, aabb is me
  68. # [18:02] <Zakim> +dethbakin; got it
  69. # [18:04] <plinss_> zakim, plinss_ is [plinss]
  70. # [18:04] <Zakim> +[plinss]; got it
  71. # [18:04] <Zakim> + +1.408.636.aacc
  72. # [18:04] <plinss_> zakim, [plinss] has glazou
  73. # [18:04] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
  74. # [18:04] * Joins: smfr (smfr@72.25.91.23)
  75. # [18:05] <Zakim> +SteveZ
  76. # [18:06] <Zakim> + +47.21.65.aadd
  77. # [18:07] * dbaron found http://www.weather.com/weather/tenday/NOXX0029 but local information is probably better
  78. # [18:07] <Zakim> +Bert
  79. # [18:08] <glazou> Bert: dropped call after first ring
  80. # [18:08] * Joins: bradk (bradk@67.188.133.45)
  81. # [18:09] <Zakim> + +1.650.275.aaee
  82. # [18:09] <Zakim> + +1.415.920.aaff
  83. # [18:09] <bradk> Zakim, aaee is me
  84. # [18:09] <Zakim> +bradk; got it
  85. # [18:10] <dbaron> Zakim, aaff is fantasai
  86. # [18:10] <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
  87. # [18:10] <dbaron> Zakim, who is on the phone?
  88. # [18:10] <Zakim> On the phone I see David_Baron, [plinss], arronei, [Microsoft], dethbakin, +1.408.636.aacc, SteveZ, +47.21.65.aadd, Bert, bradk, fantasai
  89. # [18:10] <Zakim> [plinss] has glazou
  90. # [18:10] <dbaron> Zakim, aadd is howcome
  91. # [18:10] <Zakim> +howcome; got it
  92. # [18:11] <fantasai> Daniel: First topic, F2F
  93. # [18:11] <smfr> Zakim, aacc is me
  94. # [18:11] <Zakim> +smfr; got it
  95. # [18:11] <fantasai> Daniel: We have a bunch of items on the telecon F2F. I suggest we move items > #2 to the F2F
  96. # [18:11] <fantasai> nobody says anything
  97. # [18:11] <fantasai> Daniel: ok, so let's do that
  98. # [18:11] <fantasai> Daniel: Do we know who is going to be in Oslo on Sunday night?
  99. # [18:12] <fantasai> howcome: I asked for who is coming to the picnic
  100. # [18:12] <Bert> -> http://www.w3.org/Style/Group/2010/Oslo meeting page
  101. # [18:12] <fantasai> dbaron: there's also an itinerary page for the group
  102. # [18:12] <dbaron> fantasai, where?
  103. # [18:13] <fantasai> dbaron, I was scribing you
  104. # [18:13] <fantasai> howcome: I would suggest bringing a wind jacket and a bathing suit
  105. # [18:14] <fantasai> Bert: I added Template Layout to the agenda, since César is coming
  106. # [18:14] <fantasai> Daniel: Peter and I will work on a schedule
  107. # [18:14] <fantasai> dbaron: howcome, where are we going to meet on Sunday?
  108. # [18:15] <fantasai> howcome: I'll put an email out about that tomorrow when I know more about the weather
  109. # [18:16] <fantasai> Topic: CSS2.1 Test Suite
  110. # [18:16] <fantasai> fantasai: Beta 3 published
  111. # [18:16] <fantasai> fantasai: Changes listed in the email
  112. # [18:16] <fantasai> Arron: There are still more updates to go in. I have another list from Gérard as well as a couple other emails.
  113. # [18:17] <fantasai> fantasai: I can do another publish as soon as updates are in
  114. # [18:17] <fantasai> Topic: CSS2.1 Issues
  115. # [18:17] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-56
  116. # [18:20] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Aug/0334.html
  117. # [18:20] <fantasai> Daniel: what if an image is replaced by alternate text?
  118. # [18:20] <Zakim> -smfr
  119. # [18:20] <fantasai> fantasai: Then it will be underlined, because it is text
  120. # [18:20] <fantasai> dbaron: This sounds good to me
  121. # [18:20] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
  122. # [18:20] <fantasai> Bert: sounds fine
  123. # [18:20] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Bert (15%), [plinss] (48%), dethbakin (40%)
  124. # [18:20] <Zakim> +smfr
  125. # [18:21] <fantasai> RESOLVED: fantasai's new proposal accepted for CSS2.1 Issue 56
  126. # [18:22] <fantasai> Steve: So the EPUB group is proposing to use...
  127. # [18:22] <fantasai> STeve: There's a problem in Chinese and Japanese with place names
  128. # [18:22] <dbaron> Zakim, mute dethbakin
  129. # [18:22] <Zakim> dethbakin should now be muted
  130. # [18:22] <fantasai> Steve: Sometimes these are written differently than the standard Unicode characters.
  131. # [18:22] <dbaron> dethbakin, I muted you due to the noise from your end
  132. # [18:22] <fantasai> Steve: That means they would appear to be a graphic, but would actually be text.
  133. # [18:23] <fantasai> Steve: So I would like the minutes to note that there are times when people would use a graphic as a character.
  134. # [18:23] <fantasai> fantasai: I think we discussed this wrt css3-text
  135. # [18:23] <fantasai> Steve: I think we were discussing the possibility of addingan option to underline images
  136. # [18:23] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-text/#text-decoration-skip
  137. # [18:24] <fantasai> fantasai: Yep, we did that.
  138. # [18:24] <fantasai> Steve notes that he is not expressing disagreement with the current proposal.
  139. # [18:25] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-137
  140. # [18:25] * Joins: howcome (howcome@80.203.20.237)
  141. # [18:25] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Jul/0226.html
  142. # [18:26] <fantasai> fantasai: I talked to bzbarsky and he thought this was fine
  143. # [18:26] <fantasai> dbaron: The float positioning rules do depend on anonymous blocks being containing blocks, so we can't make them not containing blocks.
  144. # [18:26] <fantasai> dbaron: This is fine with me though.
  145. # [18:27] <szilles> +1 for Elika's soln
  146. # [18:28] <fantasai> RESOLVED: proposal accepted for CSS2.1 Issue 137
  147. # [18:29] <fantasai> dbaron: I believe that the visibility of text decorations should match the visibility of the text, since we've moved to a model where the decorations are drawn by the text.
  148. # [18:29] <fantasai> Daniel: It's predictable for authors
  149. # [18:29] <fantasai> Steve: And it fits the new description.
  150. # [18:29] <Zakim> -smfr
  151. # [18:30] <smfr> i meant to unmute and say it's fine with me
  152. # [18:30] <Zakim> +smfr
  153. # [18:30] <fantasai> Arron: Implementations are all consistent and draw the underline for invisible text.
  154. # [18:31] <fantasai> Steve: The other thing that got discussed last week was do those implementations need to change to not draw under other things they're not supposed to draw under
  155. # [18:32] <fantasai> dbaron: For Gecko, you might want to look at our Quirks mode now, since that's closer to what the standard now says than our Standards mode
  156. # [18:32] <fantasai> Daniel: I think drawing underlines under text that's not there and not selectable is confusing
  157. # [18:33] <fantasai> Steve: We're now just repeating the discussion from last week
  158. # [18:33] <fantasai> Steve: I suggest moving this to the F2F
  159. # [18:33] <dbaron> For the record, I could live with the model where the visibility of the decoration goes with the visibility of the element the decoration is on.
  160. # [18:34] <dbaron> But I'd like to avoid anything other than those two choices...
  161. # [18:34] <dbaron> (well, maybe I'd be ok with the idea that it's visibile only if *both* are visible)
  162. # [18:34] <fantasai> Daniel: Moved to F2F
  163. # [18:34] * fantasai notes we might want to run other text-decoration tests on implementations to see what else need changing
  164. # [18:35] * arronei i already have all the results for all the text-decoration tests. I will bring that info to the F2F
  165. # [18:35] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-159
  166. # [18:35] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Aug/0342.html
  167. # [18:35] <fantasai> fantasai: If people want more time to review that, that might make sense; I only posted it last night
  168. # [18:36] <fantasai> Topic: ...
  169. # [18:37] <glazou> issue 170
  170. # [18:37] <fantasai> Brad: Tab and I were saying that it should be undefined now, and that it should mean something in CSS3
  171. # [18:37] <fantasai> dbaron agrees with it being undefined
  172. # [18:37] <fantasai> Brad: I would love max-height to be a trigger for scrollable tbodys or trows
  173. # [18:37] <fantasai> Daniel: No objection to making it undefined for 2.1?
  174. # [18:38] <fantasai> RESOLED: min-height / max-height on table rows, cells, etc. undefined for CSS2.1
  175. # [18:39] <smfr> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-178
  176. # [18:39] <bradk> Will there be a note about min-height, etc. being unresolved for now?
  177. # [18:39] <bradk> undefined, I mean
  178. # [18:39] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-183
  179. # [18:39] <glazou> bradk: yes
  180. # [18:39] <fantasai> Brad: Yeah, but I think Bert can write the wording for that
  181. # [18:40] <fantasai> s/:/,/
  182. # [18:41] <fantasai> howcome to forward issue 183 to Anne
  183. # [18:43] <fantasai> Daniel: I don't think we can make Appendix G non-normative
  184. # [18:43] <fantasai> dbaron: Can we say what it means then?
  185. # [18:43] <fantasai> Bert: I don't think there's anything in that grammar anymore that isn't in the prose. So maybe it can be made informative.
  186. # [18:44] <fantasai> Bert: This is not very useful for anything except the validator, and maybe people wanting to generate CSS, though not many of those
  187. # [18:45] <fantasai> Daniel: It could be useful for editors doing syntax highlighting and things like that
  188. # [18:46] <fantasai> fantasai: We're not proposing to remove the grammar, only to make it informative.
  189. # [18:46] <fantasai> fantasai: It can still be used for all those uses, it just wouldn't have any weight against the normative prose.
  190. # [18:47] <fantasai> Daniel: I suggest we write the proposal to make Appendix G informative, dicuss and resolve during F2F meeting so people have time to review the issue
  191. # [18:47] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-187
  192. # [18:48] <fantasai> Steve: Why, if I put a bidi property on a table or inline, why wouldn't I want it honored?
  193. # [18:51] <fantasai> fantasai: You do. But you generally want it to be affecting the contents of the inline-block, not the contents around it
  194. # [18:52] <fantasai> Steve: ...
  195. # [18:53] <fantasai> STeve: so the i18n discussion concluded that they should be neutral?
  196. # [18:53] <fantasai> fantasai: pretty much. Although they did also expect images to always be neutral, and they're not.
  197. # [18:53] <fantasai> Steve: I think I understand why you're proposing what you do
  198. # [18:54] <fantasai> fantasai: I'm going for neutral because it's safer in general
  199. # [18:54] <fantasai> Steve: I can live with what you're proposing. I don't have enough use cases to know.
  200. # [18:54] <fantasai> Daniel: Steve, do you need more time?
  201. # [18:55] <fantasai> Steve: The only thing I would do is go ask my i18n guys, but I'm not sure that's going to help much
  202. # [18:55] <fantasai> s/help/change/
  203. # [18:55] <smfr> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-190
  204. # [18:55] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Accepted proposal for CSS2.1 Issue 187 to make atomic inlines other than 'inline' replaced as neutral wrt bidi
  205. # [18:56] <fantasai> http://test.csswg.org/suites/css2.1/20100815/xhtml1/clip-inherit-001.xht
  206. # [18:56] <fantasai> Daniel: It seems there is interop against the current spec
  207. # [18:57] <fantasai> fantasai: I think when we introduced used values, this was one of the areas we missed the computation
  208. # [18:58] <fantasai> Daniel asks around
  209. # [18:58] <dbaron> I don't understand what the spec means without the change :-)
  210. # [18:58] <fantasai> Apple and Opera support the proposal
  211. # [18:58] <fantasai> Arron: I ran the tests in all the browsers and we all do match
  212. # [18:58] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Proposal accepted for CSS2.1 Issue 190
  213. # [18:59] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  214. # [18:59] <fantasai> Daniel: I will note that the issues list keeps growing. We need to close down the issues list and push the rest to errata at some point.
  215. # [18:59] <szilles> +1 for setting a stop date
  216. # [18:59] <fantasai> Daniel: Otherwise we will never release CSS2.1
  217. # [18:59] <Bert> +1
  218. # [19:00] <Bert> (It's not forbidden to publish a REC with open issues, they just have to be noted in the announcement.)
  219. # [19:01] <fantasai> Daniel: We should set a firm date at the F2F
  220. # [19:01] <fantasai> fantasai: We should also going from LC to PR, if we can
  221. # [19:01] <Zakim> -dethbakin
  222. # [19:01] <Zakim> -David_Baron
  223. # [19:01] <Zakim> -howcome
  224. # [19:01] <Zakim> -smfr
  225. # [19:02] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  226. # [19:02] <Zakim> -[plinss]
  227. # [19:02] <Zakim> -Bert
  228. # [19:02] <fantasai> fantasai: There's an AC meeting at TPAC, ideally we have PR ready for it so that we can enter REC by the end of the year
  229. # [19:02] * Quits: bradk (bradk@67.188.133.45) (Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/ )
  230. # [19:02] <fantasai> Meeting closed.
  231. # [19:02] <Zakim> -bradk
  232. # [19:02] <Zakim> -fantasai
  233. # [19:02] <dbaron> fantasai, voting on PRs has zero to do with AC meetings
  234. # [19:03] <dbaron> fantasai, it's all by WBS surveys
  235. # [19:05] <fantasai> ah
  236. # [19:05] * fantasai didn't know that
  237. # [19:06] <Bert> Formally, yes. But AC reps do get more active around AC meetings (just like we get more active around ftfs :-) )
  238. # [19:07] <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, arronei, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
  239. # [19:07] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  240. # [19:07] <Zakim> Attendees were David_Baron, +1.858.216.aaaa, arronei, [Microsoft], +1.617.650.aabb, dethbakin, +1.408.636.aacc, glazou, SteveZ, +47.21.65.aadd, Bert, +1.650.275.aaee,
  241. # [19:07] * Parts: smfr (smfr@72.25.91.23)
  242. # [19:07] <Zakim> ... +1.415.920.aaff, bradk, fantasai, howcome, smfr
  243. # [19:09] <Bert> And if we need a Director's decision, either to enter or exit PR, at the AC meeting we have the required people all in one place, no need for a hard-to-schedule telcon.
  244. # [19:11] * Parts: dethbakin (dethbakin@67.180.129.108)
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  252. # [20:44] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
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  261. # [23:32] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.169)
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  263. # [23:48] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.169)
  264. # Session Close: Thu Aug 19 00:00:00 2010

The end :)