/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2010-09-08 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Wed Sep 08 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #css
  3. # [00:17] * Disconnected
  4. # [00:18] * Attempting to rejoin channel #css
  5. # [00:18] * Rejoined channel #css
  6. # [00:18] * Topic is 'CSS Working Group discussion'
  7. # [00:18] * Set by fantasai on Mon Aug 02 00:49:50
  8. # [01:48] * Joins: q (chatzilla@188.25.139.208)
  9. # [01:51] * Joins: nimbupani (nimbupani@24.22.131.46)
  10. # [01:53] * Quits: nimbupani (nimbupani@24.22.131.46) (Quit: nimbupani)
  11. # [01:58] * Joins: arronei (arronei@131.107.0.106)
  12. # [02:36] * Joins: jdaggett (jdaggett@202.221.217.73)
  13. # [02:46] * Joins: boblet (boblet@220.105.162.103)
  14. # [03:01] * Quits: q (chatzilla@188.25.139.208) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722155716])
  15. # [03:03] * Quits: jdaggett (jdaggett@202.221.217.73) (Quit: jdaggett)
  16. # [03:05] * Joins: miketaylr (miketaylr@24.42.95.108)
  17. # [03:14] * Joins: jdaggett (jdaggett@202.221.217.73)
  18. # [03:21] * Joins: nimbupani (nimbupani@24.22.131.46)
  19. # [04:34] * Quits: miketaylr (miketaylr@24.42.95.108) (Client exited)
  20. # [04:40] * Quits: nimbupani (nimbupani@24.22.131.46) (Quit: nimbupani)
  21. # [04:42] * Joins: miketaylr (miketaylr@24.42.95.108)
  22. # [04:56] * Joins: kennyluck (kennyluck@133.27.228.172)
  23. # [04:58] <kennyluck> Hmm, quite some amount of bugs in http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-lists/ regarding cjk numbering.
  24. # [05:05] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.240) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  25. # [05:34] * Joins: nimbupani (nimbupani@24.22.131.46)
  26. # [05:51] * Quits: Martijnc- (Martijnc@91.176.244.37) (Ping timeout)
  27. # [05:56] * Joins: Martijnc- (Martijnc@91.176.178.197)
  28. # [05:58] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@98.234.51.190)
  29. # [06:51] * Joins: Martijn (Martijnc@91.176.178.197)
  30. # [06:51] * Quits: miketaylr (miketaylr@24.42.95.108) (Client exited)
  31. # [06:52] * Quits: Martijnc- (Martijnc@91.176.178.197) (Ping timeout)
  32. # [07:42] * Joins: TabAtkins_ (chatzilla@76.253.3.102)
  33. # [08:00] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@98.234.51.190) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  34. # [08:25] <fantasai> kennyluck: yeah, that spec hasn't been maintained very closely
  35. # [08:26] <fantasai> kennyluck: I think some of that's been covered in emails from Murakami and someone else
  36. # [08:26] <fantasai> kennyluck: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0252.html
  37. # [08:27] <kennyluck> fantasai: Yeah, I've found that one. Thank you anyway.
  38. # [08:27] <fantasai> kennyluck: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Feb/0153.html
  39. # [08:27] <fantasai> kennyluck: If there's anything not covered by those emails, please send to www-style...
  40. # [08:27] <kennyluck> Sure.
  41. # [08:28] <fantasai> kennyluck: and if you're up for writing a patch against http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-lists/Overview.src.html I'd be happy to check it in :)
  42. # [08:29] <kennyluck> fantasai: Oh yeah, I thought the problem was we are lacking an active editor. :)
  43. # [08:29] <fantasai> kennyluck: right, but I do have write access to that module :)
  44. # [08:29] <kennyluck> I am trying to find one from the community of Chinese speakers.
  45. # [08:29] <fantasai> kennyluck: Cool.
  46. # [08:30] <kennyluck> Oh, I should introduce myself. Cause I think I might meet you soon.
  47. # [08:30] <fantasai> kennyluck: ohyeah?
  48. # [08:30] <kennyluck> My name is KangHao Lu, a Taiwaese, just call me Kenny.
  49. # [08:30] <kennyluck> I am now a W3C intern and I might work for the Japanese Layout Task Force in the future.
  50. # [08:30] <fantasai> nice
  51. # [08:30] <kennyluck> I have heard of your name a thousand times. :)
  52. # [08:31] <fantasai> I'm flattered =)
  53. # [08:31] <kennyluck> SO... you are now in Japan right?
  54. # [08:31] <fantasai> not yet
  55. # [08:31] <fantasai> in 2 weeks
  56. # [08:31] <fantasai> you're in Japan or Taiwan?
  57. # [08:31] <kennyluck> Oh, OK. I think Murata-san and I will bug you once you come here.
  58. # [08:31] <kennyluck> Japan, Keio.
  59. # [08:31] <fantasai> Nice.
  60. # [08:32] * fantasai looks that up on a map
  61. # [08:32] <kennyluck> Oh, it's W3C/Keio, Fujisawa
  62. # [08:34] <kennyluck> fantasai: I think Murata-san and I might visit Japan Microsoft to see if they have people who are interested in one of css3-text css3-text-layout css3-lists css3-ruby.
  63. # [08:35] <fantasai> kennyluck: It'd be great to get comments and suggestions on the drafts
  64. # [08:36] <fantasai> kennyluck: but for editors, we really need people who understand how CSS works
  65. # [08:36] <fantasai> kennyluck: That's one of the great things about Murakami-san --
  66. # [08:36] <fantasai> kennyluck: He understands all the requirements and what the results should be
  67. # [08:36] <fantasai> kennyluck: but he also understands how CSS works and how to fit that into the CSS model
  68. # [08:36] <kennyluck> fantasai: Yes, true. But I am afraid he might be too busy from this moment on.
  69. # [08:37] <kennyluck> ... you don't think people from the IE team would understand CSS?
  70. # [08:37] <fantasai> kennyluck: That's probably the best place to look. :)
  71. # [08:38] <fantasai> kennyluck: Thing is, those drafts have had editors who didn't understand CSS.
  72. # [08:38] <fantasai> kennyluck: well, not css3-lists so much
  73. # [08:38] <fantasai> kennyluck: but Ruby and Text
  74. # [08:38] <kennyluck> fantasai: Hmm...
  75. # [08:38] <fantasai> kennyluck: I've had to rip apart Text and put it back together because of that
  76. # [08:39] <fantasai> kennyluck: and for Ruby, I suspect the requirements are adequately handled by the spec at this point (I may be wrong)
  77. # [08:39] <fantasai> kennyluck: but the definition of how it actually works is lacking
  78. # [08:39] <kennyluck> I'll ask Richard. :)
  79. # [08:39] <fantasai> kennyluck: Ishida's already volunteered :)
  80. # [08:39] <fantasai> kennyluck: He's just crazy busy afaict
  81. # [08:40] <fantasai> kennyluck: If you can at least get him to figure out which features we need to strip to get to CR...
  82. # [08:41] <kennyluck> fantasai: Yeah, I am a Taiwnese. I might be able to do the bopomofo part.
  83. # [08:42] <kennyluck> fantasai: Anyway, see you around when you come here. Murata-san is pushing vertical text very actively and I hope we could have some nice results.
  84. # [08:42] <fantasai> kennyluck: Well, feel free to send comments to www-style
  85. # [08:42] <fantasai> kennyluck: If you tag them with [css3-ruby], whoever's editing next will be able to find them.
  86. # [08:42] <fantasai> kennyluck: If not... less luck there!
  87. # [08:43] <kennyluck> No problem, I know this part!
  88. # [08:43] <fantasai> kennyluck: Cool.
  89. # [08:43] <fantasai> kennyluck: I'm serious about the patch to css3-lists, btw. If you just send me a diff of the changes -- or even just edit them into a copy of the Overview.src.html file and send that to me
  90. # [08:43] <kennyluck> fantasai: once again, patches are good enough right?
  91. # [08:44] <fantasai> kennyluck: I can just check them in
  92. # [08:44] <kennyluck> OK, cool.
  93. # [08:44] <fantasai> kennyluck: Also...
  94. # [08:44] <kennyluck> I think I can ask our Chinese folks to work on that.
  95. # [08:44] <fantasai> kennyluck: If you can find me some documentation on line breaking rules in Chinese...
  96. # [08:44] <fantasai> kennyluck: Last time I was working on CSS3 Text, that was one area I was really stuck
  97. # [08:44] <kennyluck> Sure thing. :) Will try.
  98. # [08:45] <fantasai> kennyluck: Even asked at the National Library of China in Bejing. No luck.
  99. # [08:45] <kennyluck> Huh...
  100. # [08:45] <fantasai> kennyluck: The librarian told me it's all trade secrets
  101. # [08:45] <kennyluck> lol
  102. # [08:45] <fantasai> kennyluck: And the kind of documentation I was looking for didn't exist
  103. # [08:45] <kennyluck> must be some misunderstanding, I suppose.
  104. # [08:45] <fantasai> kennyluck: Contrast with Japan! They published the whole thing as JIS X 4051.
  105. # [08:46] <kennyluck> In Taiwan, those kinds of documentation would fall under the misnistry of education.
  106. # [08:46] <kennyluck> I think I would be able to find them. But maybe China ones are better. Anyway, we'll make this effort.
  107. # [08:46] <fantasai> cool
  108. # [08:47] <fantasai> I just want something to point people at...
  109. # [08:47] <fantasai> and a few examples to illustrate why they should go read it. :)
  110. # [08:47] <kennyluck> fantasai: FYI, we made this http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-ig-zh/ and I personally hope we can do some real job but not just discussing.
  111. # [08:47] <fantasai> ... and making sure we have the right controls in CSS
  112. # [09:00] <TabAtkins_> kennyluck: I'm kinda the active editor of Lists at the moment, and would be greatly interested in a correction to the cjk numbering systems.
  113. # [09:00] <TabAtkins_> "active"
  114. # [09:01] <kennyluck> TabAtkins: did you incorporate the changes from the attachment of http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Feb/0153.html already?
  115. # [09:01] <TabAtkins_> No, not yet.
  116. # [09:01] * kennyluck is looking at it
  117. # [09:01] * TabAtkins_ puts it on his list to do this week.
  118. # [09:02] <kennyluck> Wow, cool. We'll do a check to see if there are further errors.
  119. # [09:04] * Quits: nimbupani (nimbupani@24.22.131.46) (Quit: nimbupani)
  120. # [09:04] <TabAtkins_> Cool.
  121. # [09:08] * Joins: anne (annevk@84.208.74.81)
  122. # [09:09] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: You need some sleep. ^_^
  123. # [09:12] * Quits: TabAtkins_ (chatzilla@76.253.3.102) (Ping timeout)
  124. # [09:14] * Joins: TabAtkins_ (chatzilla@76.253.3.102)
  125. # [09:31] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.169)
  126. # [09:44] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.169) (Ping timeout)
  127. # [09:44] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.169)
  128. # [09:44] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: That is so true.
  129. # [09:47] <TabAtkins_> kennyluck: Thanks a lot for the pointer back to that document about cjk fixes! I had forgetten about it. Question for you guys when you review - is it intentional that hangul-legal doesn't have it's own version of the second digit marker? Right now only the second digit marker, and the digits themselves, are falling back to cjk-ideographic. That feels like a possible error.
  130. # [09:50] * Quits: TabAtkins_ (chatzilla@76.253.3.102) (Connection reset by peer)
  131. # [09:50] * Joins: TabAtkins__ (chatzilla@76.253.3.102)
  132. # [09:59] * Joins: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.169)
  133. # [10:01] * Quits: TabAtkins__ (chatzilla@76.253.3.102) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.13/2009073109])
  134. # [10:04] <kennyluck> TabAtkins: I am not a Korean, but I my guess is that Hangul-legal uses a tweak version of the cjk-ideographic algorithm.
  135. # [10:04] <kennyluck> 3. For each group, ignoring digits that have the value zero, append the second
  136. # [10:04] <kennyluck> digit marker to the second digit, the third digit marker to the third digit, and
  137. # [10:04] <kennyluck> the fourth digit marker to the fourth digit. These markers are defined in the
  138. # [10:04] <kennyluck> tables for the specific numbering systems. The first digit has no marker.
  139. # [10:05] <kennyluck> Perhaps "append the second digit marker to the second digit" does not apply to Hangul-legal, since it does not have it's version of the second digit marker.
  140. # [10:05] <kennyluck> so for example, if 40032 is to converted to Hangul-legal.
  141. # [10:07] <kennyluck> the "32" part became 3 2 and then 서른 둘
  142. # [10:07] <kennyluck> instead of 3 + the second digit marker + 2
  143. # [10:08] <kennyluck> 서른 and 둘 are from the table with the caption "For values between 1 and 99, appropriate digits are picked from the following list (at most one per column) and written in descending order by value. "
  144. # [10:25] * Joins: shepazu_ (schepers@128.30.52.169)
  145. # [10:27] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.169) (Ping timeout)
  146. # [11:21] * shepazu_ is now known as shepazu
  147. # [12:07] * Quits: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.169) (Client exited)
  148. # [12:12] * Quits: anne (annevk@84.208.74.81) (Quit: anne)
  149. # [13:22] * Joins: anne (annevk@213.236.208.22)
  150. # [13:37] * Joins: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.169)
  151. # [13:40] * Joins: Bot404 (Kamehame@90.2.13.12)
  152. # [13:51] * Quits: Bot404 (Kamehame@90.2.13.12) (Quit: Il y a 10 types de personnes dans la vie : ceux qui savent compter, et il y a les autres =P)
  153. # [14:04] * Joins: Bot404 (Kamehame@90.2.13.12)
  154. # [14:53] * Quits: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.169) (Client exited)
  155. # [15:24] * Quits: kennyluck (kennyluck@133.27.228.172) (Quit: kennyluck)
  156. # [16:09] * Joins: szilles (chatzilla@24.6.121.94)
  157. # [16:15] * Quits: plinss_ (plinss@192.6.114.30) (Ping timeout)
  158. # [16:29] * Joins: kennyluck (kennyluck@114.48.54.29)
  159. # [17:27] * Quits: kennyluck (kennyluck@114.48.54.29) (Quit: kennyluck)
  160. # [17:27] * Joins: kennyluck (kennyluck@114.48.54.29)
  161. # [17:36] <tabatkins> kennyluck: If that's true (about hangul-legal not having a second digit marker) I'd need that clarified. Right now my plan is to just treat it as all the other cjk systems, with a fallback to the specified additive system for numbers below 100.
  162. # [17:37] * Quits: Bot404 (Kamehame@90.2.13.12) (Quit: Il y a 10 types de personnes dans la vie : ceux qui savent compter, et il y a les autres =P)
  163. # [17:41] * Joins: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19)
  164. # [17:42] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.169)
  165. # [17:42] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.169)
  166. # [17:42] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/09/08-CSS-irc
  167. # [17:42] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
  168. # [17:42] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 21 minutes
  169. # [17:42] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
  170. # [17:42] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
  171. # [17:42] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.169) (Quit: shepazu)
  172. # [17:45] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.240)
  173. # [17:50] <glazou> dbaron: do you have plans to extend -moz-*-gradient() to the CSS 3 values of <position> ?
  174. # [17:51] <glazou> (as in CSS 3 Images spec...)
  175. # [17:52] <dbaron> you mean the new background-position syntax?
  176. # [17:52] <dbaron> glazou, ^
  177. # [17:52] <dbaron> I think we'd do that at the same point we implemented that new background-position syntax
  178. # [17:52] <dbaron> which we should probably do
  179. # [17:53] <dbaron> but don't have immediate plans for
  180. # [17:53] <dbaron> (I'm not even sure if there's a bug on it.)
  181. # [17:55] <glazou> ok thx
  182. # [17:55] * Joins: dsinger_ (dsinger@67.218.104.36)
  183. # [17:56] * Joins: oyvind (oyvinds@213.236.208.22)
  184. # [17:56] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  185. # [17:56] <Zakim> +dsinger
  186. # [17:58] * Joins: bradk (bradk@67.188.133.45)
  187. # [17:58] * Quits: anne (annevk@213.236.208.22) (Quit: anne)
  188. # [17:58] <glazou> european zakim bridge is down...
  189. # [17:59] <Zakim> + +1.858.216.aaaa
  190. # [17:59] * dsinger_ zakim, mute dsinger
  191. # [17:59] * Zakim dsinger should now be muted
  192. # [17:59] <plinss> zakim, aaaa is me
  193. # [17:59] <Zakim> +plinss; got it
  194. # [17:59] * dsinger_ good morning
  195. # [18:00] <glazou> plinss: do you think you can conference me in again ? zakim european bridge is down
  196. # [18:00] <plinss> sure, give me a minute
  197. # [18:01] <Zakim> + +1.415.920.aabb
  198. # [18:01] <Zakim> + +1.650.253.aacc
  199. # [18:01] * Joins: TabAtkins_ (tabatkins@216.239.45.19)
  200. # [18:02] <glazou> Zakim, aaaa has glazou
  201. # [18:02] <Zakim> sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
  202. # [18:02] <plinss> zakim, plinss is [plinss]
  203. # [18:02] <Zakim> +[plinss]; got it
  204. # [18:02] <plinss> zakim, [plinss] has glazou
  205. # [18:02] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
  206. # [18:02] * dsinger_ zakim, why is everyone incognito today?
  207. # [18:02] * Zakim I don't understand your question, dsinger_.
  208. # [18:02] <TabAtkins_> zakim, who is here?
  209. # [18:02] <Zakim> On the phone I see dsinger (muted), [plinss], +1.415.920.aabb, +1.650.253.aacc
  210. # [18:02] <Zakim> [plinss] has glazou
  211. # [18:02] <Zakim> On IRC I see TabAtkins_, bradk, oyvind, dsinger_, dbaron, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, kennyluck, szilles, Martijn, jdaggett, boblet, arronei, krijnh, lhnz, karl, tabatkins, Bert,
  212. # [18:02] <glazou> dsinger_: zakim's health is really poor...
  213. # [18:02] <Zakim> ... fantasai, plinss, gsnedders, jgraham, Hixie, trackbot
  214. # [18:02] <TabAtkins_> zakim, aacc is me
  215. # [18:02] * dsinger_ who are aabb and aacc?
  216. # [18:02] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  217. # [18:02] <Zakim> +TabAtkins_; got it
  218. # [18:03] <arronei> zakim, microsoft is me
  219. # [18:03] <Zakim> +arronei; got it
  220. # [18:03] * Joins: smfr (smfr@72.25.91.23)
  221. # [18:04] <dsinger_> Zakim, who is on the phone?
  222. # [18:04] <Zakim> On the phone I see dsinger (muted), [plinss], +1.415.920.aabb, TabAtkins_, arronei
  223. # [18:04] <Zakim> [plinss] has glazou
  224. # [18:04] <Zakim> + +1.408.636.aadd
  225. # [18:04] * dbaron Zakim, code?
  226. # [18:04] <smfr> Zakim, aadd is me
  227. # [18:04] * Zakim saw 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479) given for the conference code, dbaron
  228. # [18:04] * dbaron Zakim, passcode?
  229. # [18:04] <Zakim> +smfr; got it
  230. # [18:04] * Zakim saw 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479) given for the conference code, dbaron
  231. # [18:04] * dsinger_ 415.920 is...?
  232. # [18:04] <Zakim> + +1.206.324.aaee
  233. # [18:04] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@76.104.131.10)
  234. # [18:05] <Zakim> + +47.21.65.aaff
  235. # [18:05] * Joins: howcome (howcome@89.10.27.99)
  236. # [18:05] <Zakim> + +1.650.275.aagg
  237. # [18:05] * dsinger_ howcome found a euro bridge?
  238. # [18:06] <bradk> Zakim, aagg is me
  239. # [18:06] <Zakim> +bradk; got it
  240. # [18:06] <dbaron> I'm just getting "this passcode is not valid"
  241. # [18:06] <glazou> dsinger_: the UK one ?
  242. # [18:06] <dsinger_> Too many incogniti!
  243. # [18:06] * howcome is on US bridge
  244. # [18:06] * glazou can't ring the UK/US bridges from SIP
  245. # [18:06] * fantasai should be here soemwhere
  246. # [18:07] <plinss> zakim, who is on the phone?
  247. # [18:07] <Zakim> On the phone I see dsinger (muted), [plinss], +1.415.920.aabb, TabAtkins_, arronei, smfr, +1.206.324.aaee, +47.21.65.aaff, bradk
  248. # [18:07] <dbaron> ok, now Zakim isn't even prompting me for a passcode
  249. # [18:07] <Zakim> [plinss] has glazou
  250. # [18:07] <dbaron> it's just hanging up
  251. # [18:08] <TabAtkins_> Zakim just hates you, dbaron.
  252. # [18:08] <glazou> dbaron: happens to me all the time when zakim does not hang after 1st ring
  253. # [18:08] * dsinger_ zakim, who is on the phone?
  254. # [18:08] * Zakim sees on the phone: dsinger (muted), [plinss], +1.415.920.aabb, TabAtkins_, arronei, smfr, +1.206.324.aaee, +47.21.65.aaff, bradk
  255. # [18:08] * Zakim [plinss] has glazou
  256. # [18:08] <dbaron> and now it says the passcode is not valid again
  257. # [18:08] <plinss> zakim, aaff is howcome
  258. # [18:08] <Zakim> +howcome; got it
  259. # [18:08] * dsinger_ fantasia is 415.929?
  260. # [18:08] <glazou> maybe we should bring Zakim's health as a TPAC topic
  261. # [18:09] <boblet> oh hey fantasai I just pinged you on Twitter
  262. # [18:09] <dbaron> I didn't bring my headset for my cellphone to work, so there's not much point in my calling in with it
  263. # [18:09] <dbaron> So I'm just going to give up.
  264. # [18:09] <Zakim> +Bert
  265. # [18:09] <dbaron> I guess I'll try calling in from home next week.
  266. # [18:09] <plinss> zakim, aaee is sylvaing
  267. # [18:09] <Zakim> +sylvaing; got it
  268. # [18:10] * dsinger_ zakim, who is on the phone?
  269. # [18:10] * Zakim sees on the phone: dsinger (muted), [plinss], +1.415.920.aabb, TabAtkins_, arronei, smfr, sylvaing, howcome, bradk, Bert
  270. # [18:10] * Zakim [plinss] has glazou
  271. # [18:10] <dsinger_> Zakim, aabb is fantasai
  272. # [18:10] <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
  273. # [18:10] * dsinger_ I hope
  274. # [18:11] <glazou> Bert: no luck for me :(
  275. # [18:11] * dsinger_ dbaron, us bridge?
  276. # [18:11] * dbaron yes
  277. # [18:11] * sylvaing Zakim is making Twitter look reliable
  278. # [18:11] <glazou> lol
  279. # [18:11] <TabAtkins_> ScribeNick: TabAtkins_
  280. # [18:11] <boblet> nn all
  281. # [18:11] <TabAtkins_> plinss: Anything to add to the agenda?
  282. # [18:12] * Quits: boblet (boblet@220.105.162.103) (Quit: boblet)
  283. # [18:12] <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
  284. # [18:12] <TabAtkins_> Bert: I sent an email a few minutes ago about a workshop in Japan that I'd like to have on the agenda.
  285. # [18:12] * dbaron Zakim, [Mozilla] is dbaron
  286. # [18:12] * Zakim +dbaron; got it
  287. # [18:12] <dbaron> No idea why it worked the 30th time and not the first 29.
  288. # [18:13] <TabAtkins_> plinss: Open issues. First up, 101.
  289. # [18:13] <Zakim> +SteveZ
  290. # [18:13] <TabAtkins_> plinss: Says we were waiting for a testcase from Arron?
  291. # [18:13] <TabAtkins_> arronei: Test case was created.
  292. # [18:13] <TabAtkins_> plinss: Anyone had a chance to review the testcase yet?
  293. # [18:14] <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: I didn't know about it had been done yet.
  294. # [18:14] <TabAtkins_> arronei: I just created them in the last two days. I just sent an email about them to the list.
  295. # [18:15] <TabAtkins_> dbaron: There were testcases in the original email. Is this testcase for the rule 3, 5, or 7 case?
  296. # [18:17] <TabAtkins_> dbaron: There were already testcases, so I'm not sure why this issue had testcase creation assigned to it. I think what was needed was proposed text to adjust the spec.
  297. # [18:17] <TabAtkins_> plinss: From the minutes, all that was discussed was testcases.
  298. # [18:18] <TabAtkins_> dbaron: I had an action item to write text, but I said I couldn't get to it for a little while. Arron volunteered to write some test cases instead.
  299. # [18:18] <TabAtkins_> plinss: Will you or someone else be able to step in and write some text for this?
  300. # [18:18] <TabAtkins_> dbaron: Probably not in the next few weeks, so if someone else can do it that would be good.
  301. # [18:18] <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: I can try and write text for it.
  302. # [18:19] <TabAtkins_> plinss: Next issue, 121. Bert sent in a proposal on this one.
  303. # [18:19] <TabAtkins_> dbaron: I responded to this a few minutes ago. I'm fine with the changes, though I'm not sure the "Generally..." bit is true.
  304. # [18:20] * Quits: dsinger_ (dsinger@67.218.104.36) (Ping timeout)
  305. # [18:20] <dbaron> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Aug/0411.html
  306. # [18:20] <dbaron> is the proposal
  307. # [18:22] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@17.197.20.4)
  308. # [18:22] <Zakim> +[Apple]
  309. # [18:22] <TabAtkins_> dbaron: I'm not really objecting to the change, I just think some of the wording adjustments in the proposal I don't think are quite right.
  310. # [18:22] <dsinger> zakim, [apple] has dsinger
  311. # [18:22] <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
  312. # [18:22] * Joins: dethbakin (dethbakin@17.246.19.169)
  313. # [18:22] <Zakim> -dsinger
  314. # [18:22] <TabAtkins_> dbaron: I think it would help if it clarified that the paragraph in question had only one font; then I think it'd be true.
  315. # [18:22] <fantasai> Bert, that should be s/block-level box/block container/
  316. # [18:22] <TabAtkins_> Bert: That's what the "etc" was meant to cover, but I can make it explicit.
  317. # [18:23] <TabAtkins_> dbaron: That might be worth mentioning.
  318. # [18:23] <Bert> (Fantasai, isn't that already in the issues list?)
  319. # [18:24] <TabAtkins_> RESOLVED: Accept Bert's changes for issue 129, with the slight edit suggested by dbaron.
  320. # [18:24] <TabAtkins_> s/issue 129/issue 121/
  321. # [18:24] <TabAtkins_> plinss: Next up is issue 129.
  322. # [18:25] * fantasai notes that going through all Bert's edits here is not a good use of time. We should focus on issues assigned ot the WG
  323. # [18:25] <TabAtkins_> Bert: I need to merge 129 with 139. It's straightforward; there's an email from Yves.
  324. # [18:25] <TabAtkins_> plinss: issue 142.
  325. # [18:26] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: Could we talk about issues that need WG discussion, rather than overseeing Bert's edits?
  326. # [18:26] * dsinger yeah, I thought we were basically done with 2.1 at the ftf, and that's all that's on the agenda?
  327. # [18:27] <TabAtkins_> plinss: I'm trying to just go over the ones that looked like they needed work.
  328. # [18:27] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: But we only have half an hour, and have a bunch of issues to look at.
  329. # [18:27] <TabAtkins_> plinss: let's skip ahead then. 158?
  330. # [18:28] <dbaron> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Aug/0458.html
  331. # [18:28] <dbaron> I'm fine with the edits
  332. # [18:28] <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: I'm fine with this edit, though there's a seperate note about something later in this thread in issue 203.
  333. # [18:28] <TabAtkins_> Bert: I think it's fine.
  334. # [18:28] <TabAtkins_> RESOLVED: Accept fantasai's edits for issue 158.
  335. # [18:29] <TabAtkins_> plinss: Issue 159.
  336. # [18:29] * oyvind notes a typo... "the where"
  337. # [18:29] * Joins: alexmog (alexmog@131.107.0.71)
  338. # [18:30] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: This should be completely editorial. I've discussed it with Arron and Michael.
  339. # [18:30] <TabAtkins_> dbaron: What says that margins are non-adjoining due to min-height?
  340. # [18:30] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: "The top and bottom margins of a box with used height other than 0".
  341. # [18:31] <TabAtkins_> dbaron: This is a change to say that max-height has an effect. If max-height is 0 and height is non-0, the margins would collapse here, while that wasn't true before.
  342. # [18:31] <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: Any clue what impls actually *do* with that?
  343. # [18:31] <TabAtkins_> arronei: I don't have a testcase specifically for that.
  344. # [18:32] <fantasai> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cdiv%20style%3D%22border%3A%20solid%3B%22%3E%0A%20%20%3Cdiv%20style%3D%22margin%3A%202em%3B%20max-height%3A%200%3B%20height%3A%205em%22%3E%0A%20%20%3C%2Fdiv%3E%0A%3C%2Fdiv%3E
  345. # [18:33] <TabAtkins_> dbaron: I thin kit would be good to write a testcase to see what impls actually do.
  346. # [18:33] * Joins: nimbupani (nimbupani@24.22.131.46)
  347. # [18:34] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: Opera, Konqueror, Chrome, and Firefox do not collapse margins if max-height is 0 and height is non-0.
  348. # [18:34] * Quits: nimbupani (nimbupani@24.22.131.46) (Quit: nimbupani)
  349. # [18:34] <TabAtkins_> arronei: I see consistency across the board here.
  350. # [18:35] <TabAtkins_> dbaron: There's a bullet point about "bottom margin of element and botto margin of last in-flow child" and the one after that - the problem with those two is that they change the latter changes the conditions of the former in the situation where all the margins collapse with each other.
  351. # [18:35] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: I don't understand.
  352. # [18:35] <TabAtkins_> dbaron: The question is, does the bottom margin of a last child collapse with the bottom margin of its parent?
  353. # [18:36] <TabAtkins_> dbaron: In particular, the case where the parent has non-zero min-height, but auto height.
  354. # [18:36] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: The last condition requires no children.
  355. # [18:37] <TabAtkins_> dbaron: Then there's a discontinuity if you have children or not, which is odd and I think might be a change from the spec.
  356. # [18:37] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: The fourth bullet has to be changed to say 0 min-height and auto height, but I don't know how that'll interact with stuff from the CSS3 box model.
  357. # [18:38] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: I'll update the proposal to explicitly fix that part.
  358. # [18:38] <TabAtkins_> plinss: Anything else with this one?
  359. # [18:39] <TabAtkins_> plinss: Next, issue 172.
  360. # [18:41] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  361. # [18:41] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: I did make a normative change, about honoring explicit widths.
  362. # [18:41] <Zakim> + +33.9.50.89.aahh
  363. # [18:42] <glazou> Zakim, aahh is me
  364. # [18:42] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
  365. # [18:42] * glazou finally... thx plinss
  366. # [18:42] <TabAtkins_> dbaron: Seems fine.
  367. # [18:43] <TabAtkins_> RESOLVED: Accept fantasai's edits for issue 172.
  368. # [18:43] <Zakim> +SteveZ
  369. # [18:43] <TabAtkins_> plinss: Issue 173?
  370. # [18:43] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: I've worked on it, but it's a mess.
  371. # [18:44] <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: Also, Henri responded to it this morning, so there's still work to be done on it.
  372. # [18:44] <TabAtkins_> plinss: We'll come back to it. Issue 187?
  373. # [18:44] <TabAtkins_> I like the text now, though I have no clue about it matching reality or whatnot.
  374. # [18:45] <fantasai> Reality seems kind of confused when last I tested it :)
  375. # [18:46] * bradk has no idea about this one
  376. # [18:46] <TabAtkins_> Bert: I like it. Seems precise.
  377. # [18:46] <bradk> :)
  378. # [18:47] <TabAtkins_> RESOLVED: Accept fantasai's edits for issue 187.
  379. # [18:47] <TabAtkins_> plinss: Issue 191.
  380. # [18:48] <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: I agree with this.
  381. # [18:48] <TabAtkins_> arronei: Do we say anywhere that markers create a line box?
  382. # [18:48] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: We say they *may*.
  383. # [18:49] <TabAtkins_> plinss: Issue 192.
  384. # [18:49] <TabAtkins_> plinss: At the ftf we decided the 3rd issue was invalid, but there was some pushback on that?
  385. # [18:51] <TabAtkins_> dbaron: There's a *lot* of references in Anton's email, that you have to read in the right order to know what is being talked about.
  386. # [18:51] <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: I'll produce an "executive summary" of all the references, so we can know what's being referred to exactly.
  387. # [18:51] <TabAtkins_> plinss: Issue 197.
  388. # [18:51] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: Boris just replied to this and gave an example:
  389. # [18:51] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Sep/0198.html
  390. # [18:52] <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: That's why we don't hoist inline clearing up to its containing block normally. Can't recall why we did it in this case.
  391. # [18:52] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: Because we thought that's what the prose was trying to say.
  392. # [18:53] <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: Since IE is the only browser that implements run-in, can we get a quick test-case to see what it does here?
  393. # [18:54] <fantasai> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%0A%3Cdiv%20style%3D%22float%3A%20left%3B%20border%3A%201em%20solid%20fuchsia%3B%22%3E%3C%2Fdiv%3E%3Cdiv%20style%3D%22float%3A%20right%3B%20border%3A%201em%20solid%20aqua%3B%22%3E%3C%2Fdiv%3E%0A%20%20%20%3Cspan%20style%3D%22display%3A%20run-in%3B%20clear%3A%20right%3B%22%3ERun-in%3C%2Fspan%3E%0A%20%20%20%3Cdiv%20style%3D%22clear%3A%20left%22%3EParagraph%3C%2Fdiv%3E%0A
  394. # [18:54] <oyvind> we do too...
  395. # [18:54] <TabAtkins_> arronei: I think there's going to need to be a few testcases for this. I can put them together so we can see them next week.
  396. # [18:55] <fantasai> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%0A%3Cdiv%20style%3D%22float%3A%20left%3B%20border%3A%202em%20solid%20fuchsia%3B%22%3E%3C%2Fdiv%3E%3Cdiv%20style%3D%22float%3A%20right%3B%20border%3A%201em%20solid%20aqua%3B%22%3E%3C%2Fdiv%3E%0A%20%20%20%3Cspan%20style%3D%22display%3A%20run-in%3B%20clear%3A%20right%3B%22%3ERun-in%3C%2Fspan%3E%0A%20%20%20%3Cdiv%20style%3D%22clear%3A%20left%22%3EParagraph%3C%2Fdiv%3E%0A%0A%3Cdiv%20s
  397. # [18:58] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  398. # [18:58] <oyvind> (opera matches IE8 on those as far as I can see)
  399. # [18:58] <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: Can we do the rest of these tests off-call?
  400. # [18:58] <TabAtkins_> plinss: Issue 199.
  401. # [18:59] <fantasai> arronei: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%0A%3Cdiv%20style%3D%22float%3A%20left%3B%20border%3A%202em%20solid%20fuchsia%3B%22%3E%3C%2Fdiv%3E%3Cdiv%20style%3D%22float%3A%20right%3B%20border%3A%201em%20solid%20aqua%3B%22%3E%3C%2Fdiv%3E%0A%20%20%20%3Cspan%20style%3D%22display%3A%20run-in%3B%20clear%3A%20right%3B%22%3ERun-in%3C%2Fspan%3E%0A%20%20%20%3Cdiv%20style%3D%22clear%3A%20left%3B%20border%3A%20solid%20silver%3
  402. # [18:59] <fantasai> arronei: Question is, does clearance move the silver box in both cases?
  403. # [18:59] <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: I sent an email to the list yesterday to define that lineboxes are *not* created in the relevant situations, rather than the somewhat circular prose currently in the spec.
  404. # [18:59] <fantasai> arronei: Or the silver box in one case and the text in the other?
  405. # [19:00] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Sep/0190.html - Tab's proposal
  406. # [19:01] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Sep/0194.html may also be helpful
  407. # [19:02] * fantasai thinks we should mark run-in at risk
  408. # [19:02] * fantasai is ok with Tab's proposal
  409. # [19:02] * oyvind would like a definition of in-flow
  410. # [19:02] <smfr> groovy
  411. # [19:02] * dsinger cool. but useful?
  412. # [19:02] <glazou> uuuuuuh
  413. # [19:03] * sylvaing sounded like dsinger at the apple cafeteria !
  414. # [19:03] * dsinger waaay better
  415. # [19:03] * glazou lost an ear
  416. # [19:03] <fantasai> oyvind, not out-of-flow :)
  417. # [19:04] <TabAtkins_> dbaron: If a linebox isn't created, what are the positions of the things that would have otherwise been there?
  418. # [19:04] <Zakim> -smfr
  419. # [19:04] <smfr> sorry gtg
  420. # [19:04] * Parts: smfr (smfr@72.25.91.23)
  421. # [19:05] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: You could instead say that such lineboxes are only used to calculate the position of boxes that would be in the linebox, but not for any other purpose.
  422. # [19:05] * glazou ROFLs at Chris Heilmann's brilliant deduction http://twitter.com/codepo8/status/23929547725
  423. # [19:05] <oyvind> fantasai, I'm not sure if you're joking or if that's actually defined somewhere :)
  424. # [19:05] <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: I will send an updated proposal that says something to that effect today.
  425. # [19:06] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: Last thing was issue 203, which is a testable change in margin collapsing. Arron and I talked with Michael in Oslo and it seemed that implementations actually agreed on it.
  426. # [19:06] <Zakim> -dbaron
  427. # [19:06] <TabAtkins_> plinss: Okay, we'll talk about that next week.
  428. # [19:06] <Zakim> -sylvaing
  429. # [19:06] <Zakim> -arronei
  430. # [19:06] <Zakim> -glazou
  431. # [19:06] <Zakim> -fantasai
  432. # [19:06] <Zakim> -bradk
  433. # [19:06] <Zakim> -howcome
  434. # [19:06] <Zakim> -[Apple]
  435. # [19:06] <Zakim> -Bert
  436. # [19:06] * Quits: bradk (bradk@67.188.133.45) (Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/ )
  437. # [19:06] <Zakim> -[plinss]
  438. # [19:07] <fantasai> oyvind: that's actually the definition
  439. # [19:07] <Zakim> -TabAtkins_
  440. # [19:07] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  441. # [19:07] <Zakim> Attendees were dsinger, +1.858.216.aaaa, +1.415.920.aabb, +1.650.253.aacc, glazou, TabAtkins_, arronei, +1.408.636.aadd, smfr, +1.206.324.aaee, +47.21.65.aaff, +1.650.275.aagg,
  442. # [19:07] <Zakim> ... bradk, howcome, Bert, sylvaing, fantasai, dbaron, SteveZ, +33.9.50.89.aahh
  443. # [19:07] * Quits: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19) (Quit: glazou)
  444. # [19:08] <oyvind> but is it assumed to be obvious what counts as "out-of-flow"?
  445. # [19:12] <oyvind> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/visuren.html#img-floateg "non-positioned in-flow blocks"
  446. # [19:25] <fantasai> oyvind: if you want to file an issue, you must send an email
  447. # [19:35] <oyvind> yeah, I'll do that tomorrow or something
  448. # [19:49] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@76.104.131.10) (Quit: sylvaing)
  449. # [19:51] * Joins: nimbupani (nimbupani@24.22.131.46)
  450. # [20:00] * Parts: howcome (howcome@89.10.27.99)
  451. # [20:00] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@17.197.20.4) (Quit: dsinger)
  452. # [21:13] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  453. # [21:13] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.169)
  454. # [21:16] * Quits: lhnz (lhnz@188.223.83.48) (Ping timeout)
  455. # [21:17] * Joins: lhnz (lhnz@188.223.83.48)
  456. # [21:30] * Quits: lhnz (lhnz@188.223.83.48) (Ping timeout)
  457. # [21:30] * Joins: lhnz (lhnz@188.223.83.48)
  458. # [21:46] * Joins: miketaylr (miketaylr@24.42.95.108)
  459. # [22:12] * Quits: nimbupani (nimbupani@24.22.131.46) (Quit: nimbupani)
  460. # [22:19] * Quits: miketaylr (miketaylr@24.42.95.108) (Quit: Leaving...)
  461. # [22:28] * Joins: kennyluck_ (kennyluck@114.48.2.70)
  462. # [22:30] * Quits: kennyluck (kennyluck@114.48.54.29) (Ping timeout)
  463. # [22:30] * kennyluck_ is now known as kennyluck
  464. # [22:42] * Joins: anne (annevk@83.85.115.123)
  465. # [22:56] * Quits: TabAtkins_ (tabatkins@216.239.45.19) (Quit: Lost terminal)
  466. # Session Close: Thu Sep 09 00:00:00 2010

The end :)