/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2010-09-22 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Sep 22 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #css
  3. # [02:44] * Joins: jdaggett (jdaggett@202.221.217.73)
  4. # [03:05] * Joins: myakura (76160199@207.192.75.252)
  5. # [03:12] <myakura> so if I have something like <p style="background: -webkit-gradient(...) red"> it shouldn't paint anything in a non-WebKit browser right?
  6. # [04:11] * Quits: Martijnc (Martijnc@91.176.122.92) (Ping timeout)
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  8. # [04:47] <fantasai> jdaggett: if you wnat to meet for lunch, I can be at kojimachi around 12:30
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  11. # [05:25] <jdaggett> fantasai: rats, i was out grabbing a bento...
  12. # [05:25] <jdaggett> fantasai: friday?
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  16. # [08:58] <fantasai> jdaggett: I'll be in Shinjuku reviewing CSS3 Text issues with Ishii-san on Friday
  17. # [09:08] <fantasai> plinss_: Are .htaccess files enabled in test.csswg.org/suites ?
  18. # [09:09] <fantasai> plinss_: Because I can't seem to get redirects to work.
  19. # [09:11] <fantasai> Alternatively, I could be making a syntax error in suites/css2.1/.htaccess ...
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  25. # [14:33] <karl> http://csswizardry.com/997/
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  32. # [17:27] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/09/22-CSS-irc
  33. # [17:27] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
  34. # [17:27] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 36 minutes
  35. # [17:27] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
  36. # [17:27] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
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  40. # [17:57] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  41. # [17:57] <Zakim> +[plinss]
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  44. # [17:59] <Zakim> +dsinger
  45. # [18:00] <dsinger> zakim, mute dsinger
  46. # [18:00] <Zakim> dsinger should now be muted
  47. # [18:00] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  48. # [18:00] * dsinger hi
  49. # [18:00] * Joins: JohnJansen (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  50. # [18:01] <Zakim> +sylvaing
  51. # [18:02] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@98.234.51.190)
  52. # [18:02] * Joins: arronei (arronei@131.107.0.111)
  53. # [18:03] <glazou> Zakim, code?
  54. # [18:03] <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), glazou
  55. # [18:03] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
  56. # [18:03] <arronei> zakim, microsoft.a is me
  57. # [18:03] <Zakim> +arronei; got it
  58. # [18:04] <sylvaing> zakim, who's on the phone ?
  59. # [18:04] <Zakim> On the phone I see [plinss], dsinger (muted), [Microsoft], sylvaing, arronei
  60. # [18:04] * Joins: dethbakin (dethbakin@67.180.129.108)
  61. # [18:04] <Zakim> +glazou
  62. # [18:04] <sylvaing> zakim, [Microsoft] is arronei, johnjansen
  63. # [18:04] <Zakim> I don't understand '[Microsoft] is arronei, johnjansen', sylvaing
  64. # [18:04] <sylvaing> zakim, [Microsoft] is johnjansen
  65. # [18:04] <Zakim> +johnjansen; got it
  66. # [18:05] <dbaron> Zakim just rings rather than asking for a passcode
  67. # [18:05] * Joins: bradk (bradk@67.188.133.45)
  68. # [18:05] <dsinger> zakim, who is here?
  69. # [18:05] <Zakim> On the phone I see [plinss], dsinger (muted), johnjansen, sylvaing, arronei, glazou
  70. # [18:05] <Zakim> On IRC I see bradk, dethbakin, arronei, dbaron, JohnJansen, oyvind, dsinger, sylvaing, myakura, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, szilles, Hixie, Martijnc, lhnz, krijnh, kennyluck, karl,
  71. # [18:05] <Zakim> ... tabatkins, plinss_, fantasai, Bert, plinss, gsnedders, jgraham, trackbot
  72. # [18:05] <Zakim> +bradk
  73. # [18:06] <sylvaing> Zakim, are you submitting an implementation report ?
  74. # [18:06] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, sylvaing.
  75. # [18:06] <dsinger> zakim, what do you understand?
  76. # [18:06] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, dsinger.
  77. # [18:06] <Zakim> +SteveZ
  78. # [18:06] <sylvaing> Zakim, you're not the only one
  79. # [18:06] <Zakim> I don't understand 'you're not the only one', sylvaing
  80. # [18:07] * Joins: smfr (smfr@17.203.14.12)
  81. # [18:07] <dbaron> ok, I'm giving up on Zakim for today
  82. # [18:07] <Zakim> +smfr
  83. # [18:07] <dbaron> five minutes spent trying to dial in is enough
  84. # [18:10] * dsinger sylvain, you can also say "zakim, [microsoft] has arronei" when there is more than one at a location/number (rather than [microsoft] is ...)
  85. # [18:10] <bradk> Zakim, much
  86. # [18:10] <Zakim> I don't understand 'much', bradk
  87. # [18:11] * Joins: alexmog (alexmog@131.107.0.98)
  88. # [18:11] * sylvaing dsinger, thanks !
  89. # [18:11] * dsinger can hear u but scribing on a bus is tooo twicky, alas
  90. # [18:11] * bradk would make a terrible scribe. Really horrible
  91. # [18:12] <smfr> Zakim: scribenick smfr
  92. # [18:12] <smfr> no agenda additions
  93. # [18:12] <glazou> Zakim, who is on the phone?
  94. # [18:12] <Zakim> On the phone I see [plinss], dsinger (muted), johnjansen, sylvaing, arronei, glazou, bradk, SteveZ, smfr
  95. # [18:12] <smfr> staus of implementation reports
  96. # [18:12] * alexmog joins Arron on the phone
  97. # [18:12] <smfr> wanted to hear from mozilla and opera; no-one is on the call
  98. # [18:12] <glazou> dbaron: can you answer through IRC?
  99. # [18:13] <dbaron> what's the question?
  100. # [18:13] <smfr> sylvaing: want to hear from apple
  101. # [18:13] <dbaron> Over the weekend, before the template was up, I ran the tests for chapters 1-4
  102. # [18:13] <smfr> smfr: we have not have resources to go through the test suite, unless it gets automated
  103. # [18:13] <dbaron> but it turns out that isn't actually very useful for building the template, so I'll probably toss that work out
  104. # [18:13] <smfr> how do I tell zakim that i'm scribe?
  105. # [18:13] <sylvaing> scribenick:smfr
  106. # [18:13] <glazou> ScribeNick: smfr
  107. # [18:14] <dbaron> I'm hoping to run the noninteractive parts of the testsuite through the reftest harness to reduce the tests to unique images
  108. # [18:14] <dbaron> which Opera says should be about ~3000 instead of ~9000 or something like that
  109. # [18:14] <dbaron> I'm not exactly sure where that leaves me, though; it depends how much time I'll have.
  110. # [18:15] <smfr> smfr: we could try to crowdsource running the tests
  111. # [18:15] <smfr> sylvaing: so someone could fail every test
  112. # [18:15] <smfr> sylvaing: this is a vendor's report; should be run by the vendor
  113. # [18:16] <smfr> plinss: maybe we can trust the results if multiple people give the same answers
  114. # [18:16] <dbaron> Also, I'm probably going to add an additional state to my implementation report
  115. # [18:16] <dbaron> Since I'm unlikely to be able to figure out whether all the tests that fail are valid or not
  116. # [18:16] <smfr> sylvaing: impl. report should explain if the report is not produced directly by the vendor
  117. # [18:16] <dbaron> so I'll have three failing states instead of two: bug, fail, and invalid
  118. # [18:17] <smfr> smfr: maybe we can use the crowdsourced results to focus our testing
  119. # [18:17] <smfr> sylvaing: you still have to go through the results, so maybe you don't save that much
  120. # [18:18] <smfr> smfr: does the harness let you query results for a given user agent?
  121. # [18:19] <smfr> plinss: tabatkins is working on migrating the HP harness to the w3c server
  122. # [18:19] <plinss_> s/to/from/
  123. # [18:20] <smfr> sylvaing: apple probably won't make 10/15, nor google or mozilla
  124. # [18:20] <smfr> sylvaing: google WILL make it (according to tabatkins )
  125. # [18:20] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@67.218.109.173) (Quit: dsinger)
  126. # [18:20] <sylvaing> correction: microsoft+google indicated they'd make the date; apple,mozilla and opera not, it seems
  127. # [18:21] <smfr> sylvaing: we wont' have two implementations for each testcase
  128. # [18:22] <dbaron> BTW, shouldn't you be talking about 10/18 rather than 10/15 given when the test suite and implementation report template were available?
  129. # [18:22] <smfr> yes, should be 10/18
  130. # [18:22] <sylvaing> yes, 10/18; corrected
  131. # [18:23] <bradk> What about others, such as Prince?
  132. # [18:23] <smfr> plinss: don't have definite answer for mozilla and opera, iffy for apple
  133. # [18:24] <smfr> CSS 2.1 CR Exit Criteria
  134. # [18:24] <smfr> relaxed exit criteria to allow use of current betas
  135. # [18:25] <smfr> smfr: do webkit nightly builds count? not public betas, but are downloadable
  136. # [18:25] <smfr> bradk: opera have the same problem
  137. # [18:26] <smfr> plinss: nightlies too unstable
  138. # [18:27] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@17.197.20.4)
  139. # [18:27] <dsinger> zakim, unmute dsinger
  140. # [18:27] <Zakim> dsinger should no longer be muted
  141. # [18:27] * smfr explains how safari and webkit relate
  142. # [18:27] <smfr> plinss: nightlies are ok so long as they have been available for a min. of a month
  143. # [18:27] <dsinger> that's more it. we want that the *feature* is stable, not that the *build* is old
  144. # [18:28] <smfr> sylvaing: we have two vendors submitting reports by 10/18. can the other vendors estimate when they can submit?
  145. # [18:28] <smfr> smfr: can't for apple
  146. # [18:28] <bradk> Is it true that the feature is stable if it is not prefixed?
  147. # [18:28] <dsinger> so, ask that the test passes in a build at least two weeks old (and that it hasn't broken in the meantime)
  148. # [18:28] <smfr> plinss: do we want to relax exit criteria for 2.1?
  149. # [18:29] <Zakim> +[Apple]
  150. # [18:29] <Zakim> -dsinger
  151. # [18:29] <dsinger> zakim, [apple] has dsinger
  152. # [18:29] <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
  153. # [18:30] <smfr> glazou: if we relax the build criteria, will it help?
  154. # [18:30] <smfr> sylvaing: it's not the build, is the cost of running the tests
  155. # [18:30] <smfr> s/is/it is
  156. # [18:30] <smfr> glazou: we should be pragmatic. we should do whatever we need to make CSS 2.1 a Rec.
  157. # [18:31] <smfr> sylvaing: there are other issues
  158. # [18:32] <smfr> discussion at TPAC will ensure
  159. # [18:33] <smfr> s/ensure/ensue
  160. # [18:33] <smfr> sylvaing: maybe we can relax the rule for 2 passes on all tests
  161. # [18:34] <smfr> plinss: do we have to have complete report from each vendor, or just enough to show 2 impls passing each test
  162. # [18:35] <smfr> smfr: what happens if tests fail in all impls?
  163. # [18:35] <smfr> arronei: there are 126 failures in all browsers
  164. # [18:35] <dbaron> Does that 126 number include corrections from when that list was discussed on public-css-testsuite?
  165. # [18:36] <dbaron> (i.e., errors in some of the tests were pointed out)
  166. # [18:36] <smfr> sylvaing: how many tests fail in one or both of IE and chrome (the 2 impl. reports) we have
  167. # [18:36] <smfr> glazou: does arronei have reports for all browsers
  168. # [18:37] <smfr> sylvaing: yes, but MS will not submit reports for other vendors
  169. # [18:37] <smfr> but MS willing to help share to cross-check the results
  170. # [18:41] <smfr> test
  171. # [18:41] <smfr> smfr talked about lack of automation
  172. # [18:41] <smfr> dsinger: what's the real issue
  173. # [18:42] <smfr> glazou: it's a problem for tests that don't pass in 2 browsers
  174. # [18:42] <smfr> sylvaing: let's say MS and chrome submit, and other vendors focus on failing tests
  175. # [18:42] <smfr> sylvaing: can we still go with that?
  176. # [18:43] <smfr> glazou: we can take it to the letter. "we need 2 implementations for each feature"
  177. # [18:43] <smfr> dsinger: we've met the spirit of the law, if not necessarily the letter
  178. # [18:44] <sylvaing> (smfr, I think it's the reverse actually..)
  179. # [18:44] <dsinger> or rather, we met the letter of the law, but more importantly, we also can say we met the spirit
  180. # [18:44] <smfr> glazou: instead of submitting 4 columns of pass/fail, we list 2 browsers for each
  181. # [18:44] <JohnJansen> it looks like there are about 1800 tests that neither IE nor Chrome pass
  182. # [18:45] <JohnJansen> or rather about 7600 tests that we both pass
  183. # [18:45] <smfr> szilles: it's up to the browser vendors to control how they look
  184. # [18:45] <smfr> JohnJansen: 1800 tests that either IE or chrome fail
  185. # [18:45] <smfr> arronei: it's only 126
  186. # [18:46] <smfr> we have 1800 lacking two passes (from IE or chrome)
  187. # [18:46] <smfr> so other vendors should focus on those tests
  188. # [18:47] <smfr> sylvaing: if we had mozilla, what would the number be?
  189. # [18:47] <smfr> dsinger: how many fail because the test is wrong?
  190. # [18:48] <smfr> smfr / arronei: those tests are gradually being addressed
  191. # [18:48] <smfr> dsinger: what about two tests that can't both be passed?
  192. # [18:48] <smfr> arronei: haven't come across any of those
  193. # [18:49] <dbaron> I've come across two that can't both be passed
  194. # [18:49] <smfr> smfr: is the feature == test assumption for exit realistic?
  195. # [18:49] <dbaron> but it was due to an error in one of them
  196. # [18:49] <dbaron> feature == test was never the assumption
  197. # [18:50] <smfr> smfr: a "feature" is covered by a set of tests, maybe we shouldn't require passes of all tests for a given feature
  198. # [18:50] <smfr> plinss: we've done that before
  199. # [18:51] <smfr> sylvaing: question for opera. do they need to submit data for 3 platforms
  200. # [18:51] <smfr> plinss: it's not necessary, may be helpful if only one platform passes
  201. # [18:51] <smfr> plinss: cannot count different platforms as different implementations
  202. # [18:52] <smfr> sylvaing: re: feature vs. test: since we have 20% of tests failing, it doesn't matter much
  203. # [18:53] <smfr> plinss: to conclude
  204. # [18:53] <smfr> plinss: partial reports from some vendors are ok
  205. # [18:53] <sylvaing> any objections ?
  206. # [18:53] <smfr> no objections
  207. # [18:54] <smfr> plinss: can we get a list of the 1800 tests that we need reports for
  208. # [18:54] <smfr> JohnJansen: MS can submit its report on 9/29
  209. # [18:55] * Quits: dethbakin (dethbakin@67.180.129.108) (Connection reset by peer)
  210. # [18:55] <smfr> we don't know when chrome will submit
  211. # [18:55] <smfr> plinss: can MS publish an informal list of where other vendors need to focus?
  212. # [18:56] <smfr> JohnJansen: have to check
  213. # [18:56] <smfr> JohnJansen: if we have mozilla, that 1800 number goes way down
  214. # [18:57] <smfr> glazou: 7600 tests pass in both browsers, in both XHTML1 and HTML4, or just one?
  215. # [18:57] <smfr> sylvaing: both
  216. # [18:57] <smfr> s/ sylvaing / arronei
  217. # [18:57] <smfr> MS is testing IE9 beta
  218. # [18:57] <JohnJansen> s/ both / IE9 beta and Chrome
  219. # [18:58] <smfr> plinss: can we get resolution on exit criteria? IE9 beta is not good enough
  220. # [18:58] <smfr> exit criteria currently state "shipping builds"
  221. # [18:58] <smfr> JohnJansen: by the time of publishing, it will have been out for 30 days
  222. # [18:58] <dbaron> did we previously resolve to change the 2.1 exit criteria to match the ones we've recently been using for css3 modules?
  223. # [18:59] <smfr> RESOLUTION: will change exit criteria to 2 publicly available builds (including nightlies and betas), as long as they have been available to the general public for 1 month
  224. # [19:00] <smfr> plinss: should not include experimental builds, or builds made to just pass a test
  225. # [19:00] <smfr> plinss: intent should be that the feature should be present in nightlies for a month
  226. # [19:01] <dbaron> builds along a development line intended for a release?
  227. # [19:01] <dsinger> basically, we have to defend the results with a straight face. that's the bottom line.
  228. # [19:02] <smfr> plinss: this is adopting for 2.1 what we have been doing for CSS 3
  229. # [19:02] <smfr> RESOLVED: adopt current exit criteria for CSS 2.1
  230. # [19:03] <smfr> sylvaing: have an action to talk to tabatkins to see how chrome is doing, and share testcases that don't pass in both
  231. # [19:03] <smfr> sylvaing: any actions on other vendors?
  232. # [19:03] <smfr> action on other vendors: get implementation reports done; partial reports are acceptable
  233. # [19:03] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  234. # [19:03] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - on
  235. # [19:04] <smfr> plinss: no intention to slip the dates
  236. # [19:04] <smfr> glazou: arronei, did you run the tests manually at least once?
  237. # [19:04] <smfr> glazou: how many per day?
  238. # [19:04] <smfr> arronei: 600 tests in an hour, manually
  239. # [19:08] <smfr> smfr: i would like some kind of basic harness to come with the test suite
  240. # [19:08] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  241. # [19:08] <Zakim> -arronei
  242. # [19:08] <Zakim> -[Apple]
  243. # [19:08] <Zakim> -johnjansen
  244. # [19:08] <Zakim> -sylvaing
  245. # [19:08] * dsinger bye
  246. # [19:09] * Quits: bradk (bradk@67.188.133.45) (Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/ )
  247. # [19:09] <Zakim> -[plinss]
  248. # [19:09] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@17.197.20.4) (Quit: dsinger)
  249. # [19:09] <Zakim> -bradk
  250. # [19:09] * Quits: JohnJansen (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
  251. # [19:09] <smfr> plinss: do I have to do anything with the minutes?
  252. # [19:09] <Zakim> -smfr
  253. # [19:09] * Parts: dbaron (dbaron@98.234.51.190) (8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  254. # [19:12] <plinss_> smfr: there's a script to format them nicely and they get posted to www-style, fantasai can help...
  255. # [19:12] <Zakim> -glazou
  256. # [19:12] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  257. # [19:12] <Zakim> Attendees were [plinss], dsinger, sylvaing, arronei, glazou, johnjansen, bradk, SteveZ, smfr
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  266. # [19:52] * Joins: myakura (myakura@123.225.63.113)
  267. # [19:55] * Quits: myakura (myakura@123.225.63.113) (Client exited)
  268. # [19:56] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.240)
  269. # [20:08] * Joins: alexmog (alexmog@131.107.0.75)
  270. # [20:21] * Parts: smfr (smfr@17.203.14.12)
  271. # [20:41] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  272. # [20:41] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.169)
  273. # [20:58] * Joins: nimbupani (nimbupani@64.168.229.50)
  274. # [20:58] * Quits: nimbupani (nimbupani@64.168.229.50) (Quit: nimbupani)
  275. # [21:30] * Joins: anne (annevk@83.85.115.123)
  276. # [22:21] * Quits: kennyluck (kennyluck@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  277. # [22:25] * Joins: kennyluck (kennyluck@128.30.52.28)
  278. # [23:15] * Quits: alexmog (alexmog@131.107.0.75) (Quit: alexmog)
  279. # [23:30] * Quits: anne (annevk@83.85.115.123) (Quit: anne)
  280. # [23:43] * Joins: hyatt (hyatt@98.200.224.166)
  281. # Session Close: Thu Sep 23 00:00:00 2010

The end :)