/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2010-10-20 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Oct 20 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  32. # [17:11] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/10/20-CSS-irc
  33. # [17:11] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
  34. # [17:11] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 52 minutes
  35. # [17:11] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
  36. # [17:11] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
  37. # [17:18] * Joins: kennyluck (kennyluck@128.30.52.28)
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  46. # [17:58] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  47. # [17:58] <Zakim> +dsinger
  48. # [17:58] * Joins: smfr (smfr@17.203.14.12)
  49. # [17:58] * dsinger_ zakim, mute dsinger
  50. # [17:58] * Zakim sorry, dsinger_, muting is not permitted when only one person is present
  51. # [17:58] <smfr> ha ha
  52. # [17:59] * dsinger_ early birds get worms
  53. # [17:59] <Zakim> +jdaggett
  54. # [18:00] <jdaggett> zakim, mute me
  55. # [18:00] <Zakim> jdaggett should now be muted
  56. # [18:00] <dsinger_> Zakim, this is style
  57. # [18:00] <Zakim> dsinger_, this was already Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
  58. # [18:00] <Zakim> ok, dsinger_; that matches Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
  59. # [18:00] * dsinger_ zakim, mute dsinger
  60. # [18:00] * Zakim dsinger should now be muted
  61. # [18:00] <Zakim> +glazou
  62. # [18:00] <jdaggett> greetings
  63. # [18:00] <glazou> hi jdaggett
  64. # [18:00] * dsinger_ yo!
  65. # [18:00] <glazou> got your email just had no time to answer yet
  66. # [18:00] <glazou> hi dsinger_
  67. # [18:00] <jdaggett> enjoying your strikes?
  68. # [18:01] <Zakim> + +1.253.307.aaaa
  69. # [18:01] * jdaggett loves hearing stories of jet fuel shortages...
  70. # [18:01] <Zakim> +smfr
  71. # [18:01] <glazou> jdaggett: only 1/4th of tank in my car...
  72. # [18:01] <Zakim> +??P8
  73. # [18:01] <jdaggett> heh
  74. # [18:01] <Zakim> + +1.650.253.aabb
  75. # [18:01] <Zakim> +plinss
  76. # [18:01] <kojiishi> zakim, +??P8 is me
  77. # [18:01] <TabAtkins_> Zakim, aabb is me.
  78. # [18:01] <Zakim> sorry, kojiishi, I do not recognize a party named '+??P8'
  79. # [18:01] <Zakim> +TabAtkins_; got it
  80. # [18:02] <glazou> Zakim, aaaa is arronei
  81. # [18:02] <Zakim> +arronei; got it
  82. # [18:02] <Zakim> -??P8
  83. # [18:02] <jdaggett> yup
  84. # [18:02] * dsinger_ bye bye P8!
  85. # [18:03] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  86. # [18:03] <kojiishi> zakim, ipcaller is me
  87. # [18:03] <Zakim> +kojiishi; got it
  88. # [18:04] * dsinger_ will have to drop around 9:20, sorry
  89. # [18:04] <glazou> np dsinger_
  90. # [18:04] <Zakim> +Bert
  91. # [18:05] * glazou dies and will start conf call afterwards...
  92. # [18:06] * dsinger_ spectral chairing, huh?
  93. # [18:06] <glazou> probably my first cold this year...
  94. # [18:07] * glazou wonders if dsinger_ will leave for the Lion event
  95. # [18:07] <Zakim> +fantasai
  96. # [18:07] <jdaggett> zakim, who is noisy
  97. # [18:07] * dsinger_ huh?
  98. # [18:07] <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is noisy', jdaggett
  99. # [18:08] <Zakim> +sylvaing
  100. # [18:08] <jdaggett> zakim, who is noisy?
  101. # [18:08] <Zakim> jdaggett, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou (60%), Bert (5%), TabAtkins_ (35%), fantasai (69%)
  102. # [18:08] <TabAtkins_> ScribeNick: TabAtkins_
  103. # [18:08] <dsinger_> Zakim, who is noisy?
  104. # [18:08] <Zakim> dsinger_, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou (4%), TabAtkins_ (26%)
  105. # [18:08] * sylvaing this is the sound of transportation: can't be France
  106. # [18:08] <Zakim> +David_Baron
  107. # [18:08] * Joins: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.169)
  108. # [18:09] <TabAtkins_> glazou: First agenda item is CSS 2.1.
  109. # [18:09] <TabAtkins_> glazou: I see we ahve multiple implementation reports
  110. # [18:09] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  111. # [18:09] * Joins: dethbakin (dethbakin@17.246.17.233)
  112. # [18:09] <Zakim> -arronei
  113. # [18:09] <TabAtkins_> glazou: Peter is aggregating the results, but some are from RC1 and RC2.
  114. # [18:09] <Zakim> +[Apple]
  115. # [18:09] <dethbakin> Zakim, Apple has me
  116. # [18:09] <Zakim> +dethbakin; got it
  117. # [18:09] * dsinger_ speak up?
  118. # [18:09] <Zakim> +ChrisL
  119. # [18:09] <TabAtkins_> plinss: Most tests didn't change between, so I have a script that's grandfathering RC1 results that are still valid.
  120. # [18:10] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
  121. # [18:10] <TabAtkins_> glazou: Any idea of the number of tests passed by two impls?
  122. # [18:10] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou (90%), Bert (10%), TabAtkins_ (25%), plinss (9%)
  123. # [18:10] <TabAtkins_> plinss: No idea until I finish combining all of the IRs.
  124. # [18:10] <arronei> zakim, microsoft has me
  125. # [18:10] <Zakim> +arronei; got it
  126. # [18:10] <Zakim> -TabAtkins_
  127. # [18:10] <TabAtkins_> Craps, one sec.
  128. # [18:10] <glazou> waiting for you TabAtkins_
  129. # [18:11] <sylvaing> ScribeNick: sylvaing
  130. # [18:11] * Quits: fantasai (fantasai@69.162.163.148) (Quit: leaving)
  131. # [18:11] <Zakim> +TabAtkins_
  132. # [18:11] * Joins: fantasai (fantasai@69.162.163.148)
  133. # [18:11] <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
  134. # [18:11] <fantasai> arronei: I updated maybe 100 cases or so
  135. # [18:11] <sylvaing> arronei: a large set of updates came in; about 100 cases
  136. # [18:11] * sylvaing well ok then :)
  137. # [18:11] <fantasai> arronei: Now we have a lot of feedback from IR coming in
  138. # [18:11] <fantasai> dbaron: I reported 494 tests as invalid
  139. # [18:12] <fantasai> arronei: Not all of those are actually invalid. I have feedback on why they're not invalid
  140. # [18:12] <fantasai> arronei: But I'll send that feedback in as a group in a bit
  141. # [18:12] <fantasai> dbaron: 496
  142. # [18:12] <fantasai> glazou: So let's wait for Peter's results and arronei's updates
  143. # [18:12] * oyvind assumes most of these are FAILs, and wonders how many of the tests that pass all around are actually invalid
  144. # [18:12] <fantasai> arronei: I'm concerned about other updates, from boris and gerard and fantasai. No idea how those are tracking
  145. # [18:12] <fantasai> dbaron: Do we have a mechanism for tracking which errors are in which tests?
  146. # [18:13] <fantasai> arronei: that's kinda tricky
  147. # [18:13] <dbaron> s/are in which tests/are in whose tests/
  148. # [18:13] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: We do have a list that maps filenames to their location in the source tree.
  149. # [18:13] <oyvind> http://wiki.csswg.org/test/css2.1/issues has some sort of grouping
  150. # [18:13] <fantasai> http://test.csswg.org/source/filename-list
  151. # [18:13] * ChrisL zakim, mute me
  152. # [18:13] * Zakim ChrisL should now be muted
  153. # [18:13] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: That should show who is responsible for the tests.
  154. # [18:14] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: If it's in "approved", it's us as the WG's responsibility to maintain the tests. If it's in a contributor's directory, we can find out who's responsible.
  155. # [18:14] <fantasai> dbaron: The other thing is, when arron has responses, I'm probably going to have responses to his responses. So it's better to send them out sooner
  156. # [18:14] <fantasai> arronei: Well, there's a lot of duplicates. So I'm trying to group those together as much as possible.
  157. # [18:15] <fantasai> arronei: That's part of the reason I want to publish on Friday. Even if I'm not done with everything, at least I get all the edits in asap
  158. # [18:15] <fantasai> arronei: I think it's better to get releases out faster, even if not all edits are in. We'll have smaller updates instead of larger ones.
  159. # [18:15] * Quits: dsinger_ (dsinger@66.109.106.44) (Quit: Rooms • iPhone IRC Client • http://www.roomsapp.mobi)
  160. # [18:16] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: If I don't have to actually fix tests before I publish (because I don't know how long it'll take to finish mine), publishing takes a couple of hours, so it's deifnitely something we can do on Friday.
  161. # [18:16] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: If we do the publish with the understanding that some errors will still be standing in the test suite.
  162. # [18:16] <fantasai> arronei: How about we talk on Friday and see where we are, then either publish Friday or next Tuesday
  163. # [18:16] <fantasai> Topic: CSS2.1 edits
  164. # [18:16] <jdaggett> unmute me
  165. # [18:17] <jdaggett> zakim, unmute
  166. # [18:17] <Zakim> I don't understand 'unmute', jdaggett
  167. # [18:17] <fantasai> zakim, unmute jdaggett
  168. # [18:17] <Zakim> jdaggett should no longer be muted
  169. # [18:17] <glazou> Zakim, unmute jdaggett
  170. # [18:17] <Zakim> jdaggett was not muted, glazou
  171. # [18:17] <glazou> http://www.w3.org/mid/1692182533.109045.1287455881677.JavaMail.root@cm-mail03.mozilla.org
  172. # [18:17] <fantasai> jdaggett: There are a number of places where the spec has changed significantly, e.g. the table of bolder/lighter mappings
  173. # [18:17] <fantasai> jdaggett: And that information is not public.
  174. # [18:17] <fantasai> jdaggett: I wanted to know if we can take whatever edits we have so far and make a publication of that?
  175. # [18:18] <fantasai> Bert: We'll have a last call in 2 weeks, after TPAC. Why can't we wait a little bit more?
  176. # [18:18] <ChrisL> zakim, unmute me
  177. # [18:18] <Zakim> ChrisL should no longer be muted
  178. # [18:18] <fantasai> Bert: All the edits we have so far will be done by TPAC, so just after TPAC. If we decide on more edits at TPAC, then it will take longer
  179. # [18:18] <ChrisL> there is a lot of time in 'after'. 'soon after' is better
  180. # [18:18] <fantasai> jdaggett: It's hard to have discussions about things that are not in the public spec
  181. # [18:19] <fantasai> dbaron: I had to tell gtalbot that a test in the test suite was invalid because of edits that I could not describe because they were not anywhere public
  182. # [18:19] <fantasai> jdaggett: Why don't we say whatever edits we have in before TPAC, we try to put those out a few days after TPAC ends, and any extra edits will be dealt with later.
  183. # [18:20] <fantasai> Bert: It's possible. It takes a bit of time to publish.
  184. # [18:20] <fantasai> Bert: There's one other thing I don't like about that is that if we publish, it will be a normal WD, not even an LCWD.
  185. # [18:20] <fantasai> Bert: It's a bad signal to give to people wrt stability of the spec.
  186. # [18:20] <fantasai> jdaggett: But if we very quickly follow that with an LCWD, how is that different?
  187. # [18:21] <fantasai> glazou: Bert has a point. If we go back to normal WD, since we always said that we are almost ready to move along the REC track, it's a very bad signal.
  188. # [18:21] * Quits: alexmog (alexmog@71.231.123.22) (Ping timeout)
  189. # [18:21] <fantasai> dbaron: Can we have the editor's draft public? Which would solve this problem?
  190. # [18:21] <fantasai> sylvaing: Yes, all the CSS3 drafts are publicly accessible, so that makes sense.
  191. # [18:21] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@17.197.20.4)
  192. # [18:21] <fantasai> Bert: well, all the errata are public. Everything that has been edited is public.
  193. # [18:22] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: It's much much harder to diff the public CSS2.1 with the errata than it is to look at the edited draft.
  194. # [18:22] <ChrisL> CSS WG is supposed to work in public. CSS2.1 not being in public is a problem; at least its a short-lived problem.
  195. # [18:22] <fantasai> dbaron: The errata don't always have the exact text.
  196. # [18:22] <fantasai> glazou: Seems like everyone wants to have an updated public draft.
  197. # [18:22] <ChrisL> concur
  198. # [18:22] <fantasai> glazou: Is there consensus to make the editor's draft public?
  199. # [18:23] <fantasai> glazou: Ok, let's do the edits into an editor's draft and make it public asap
  200. # [18:23] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Publish CSS2.1 editor's draft publicly ASAP
  201. # [18:23] <fantasai> CSS2.1 Issues
  202. # [18:23] <fantasai> Topic: CSS2.1 Issues
  203. # [18:23] <jdaggett> zakim, mute me
  204. # [18:23] <Zakim> jdaggett should now be muted
  205. # [18:24] <TabAtkins_> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Oct/0428.html
  206. # [18:24] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: After reading the extra feedback on the thread, I believe my text is still correct, I just needed to change the reference from "parent" to "containing block"
  207. # [18:24] * Joins: karl (karlcow@128.30.54.58)
  208. # [18:24] <fantasai> glazou: I suppose we need some time to review and approve
  209. # [18:24] <fantasai> ACTION everyone: review 101 for next week
  210. # [18:24] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  211. # [18:24] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - everyone
  212. # [18:24] * RRSAgent records action 1
  213. # [18:25] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-101
  214. # [18:25] <fantasai> Issue 154
  215. # [18:25] <fantasai> arronei: Haven't worked on it, because focused on test suite
  216. # [18:25] * ChrisL domestic bliss, tab and elika. sweet.
  217. # [18:26] <fantasai> arronei: Should be ready for next week
  218. # [18:26] * TabAtkins_ Hey, I'm married, both to my job and another woman.
  219. # [18:26] <fantasai> glazou: Let's do that. Let's try to have all issues resolved before TPAC
  220. # [18:26] <Zakim> -dsinger
  221. # [18:26] <fantasai> Issue 159
  222. # [18:26] * dbaron did not have a chance to review the issue 159 proposal yet
  223. # [18:26] <TabAtkins_> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-159
  224. # [18:26] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-159
  225. # [18:27] <fantasai> arronei: MS has reviewed most of this, but haven't gotten all feedback from our margin collapsing dev yet
  226. # [18:28] <fantasai> dbaron: Haven't gotten to this since last week; pretty busy w/ implementation report
  227. # [18:28] <fantasai> glazou: Ok, deferred to next week. But please make sure you have reviewed the proposal for next conf call
  228. # [18:28] <fantasai> Issue 199
  229. # [18:28] * Joins: howcome (howcome@77.19.53.87)
  230. # [18:28] <fantasai> Tab sends an email
  231. # [18:29] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: There was one particular question on the previous wording, so this is an update on the previous proposal
  232. # [18:29] <fantasai> glazou: so let's give a week to review this proposal
  233. # [18:29] <glazou> http://www.w3.org/mid/20101016195038.GA17927@pickering.dbaron.org
  234. # [18:29] <fantasai> glazou: Last question is, should overflow apply to inline table elements?
  235. # [18:30] <fantasai> dbaron: Yeah, there was a test in the test suite, it semed odd to apply to inline-table but not table
  236. # [18:30] <fantasai> Bert: Looks like an editing error
  237. # [18:30] * TabAtkins_ put the 199 proposal on the wiki too.
  238. # [18:30] <fantasai> RESOLVED: overflow applies to inline-table just like tables
  239. # [18:30] <fantasai> Topic: TPAC
  240. # [18:31] <jdaggett> zakim, unmute me
  241. # [18:31] <Zakim> jdaggett should no longer be muted
  242. # [18:31] <ChrisL> q+ to talk about fx taskforce (joint css svg) on Thursday
  243. # [18:31] * Zakim sees ChrisL on the speaker queue
  244. # [18:31] <fantasai> glazou: Request from Janina to have a joint meeting to talk about accessibility
  245. # [18:31] <fantasai> ChrisL: We also discussed having an FX taskforce meeting.
  246. # [18:31] <fantasai> ChrisL: Turns out some people are arriving on Wed afternoon. So better to have it on Thursday
  247. # [18:31] <fantasai> sounds ok
  248. # [18:32] <fantasai> glazou will be away
  249. # [18:32] <fantasai> dbaron: Can we do it in the part of Thursday that doesn't overlap the AC meeting?
  250. # [18:32] <fantasai> ChrisL: Of course.
  251. # [18:32] <ChrisL> so thursday, not overlapping ac meeting.
  252. # [18:32] <fantasai> glazou: Let me give you a short report in France right now.
  253. # [18:32] <fantasai> glazou: Big big strikes
  254. # [18:33] <fantasai> glazou: I strongly recommend taking the train straight from CDG, not trying to go to the city
  255. # [18:33] <fantasai> glazou: Taxis may run out of fuel
  256. # [18:33] <fantasai> glazou: my own car is running out of fuel
  257. # [18:33] * ChrisL has no problems, because no car
  258. # [18:33] <fantasai> glazou: Some riots in Lyon, hopefully over by then
  259. # [18:33] * dbaron is flying to LYS (via ZRH)
  260. # [18:33] <fantasai> glazou: This morning I checked all the arrivals from the US and India, no problem at all
  261. # [18:33] * ChrisL has a daughter visiting lyon today though ....
  262. # [18:33] <fantasai> glazou: The trains were running normally, at least from Paris to Lyon
  263. # [18:33] <smfr> bring a donkey and cart
  264. # [18:34] <fantasai> glazou: I'm going to send reports to csswg mailing list when I have more information as we get closer to TPAC
  265. # [18:35] <fantasai> fantasai: Do we have a joint meeting scheduled with i18n?
  266. # [18:35] <fantasai> glazou: yes
  267. # [18:35] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/tpac-2010
  268. # [18:35] <fantasai> glazou: We should start prioritizing our work for CSS3
  269. # [18:36] <fantasai> sylvaing: Are we moving css3-background to CR?
  270. # [18:36] <fantasai> fantasai: yes, working on LC DoC this week
  271. # [18:36] <fantasai> sylvaing: MS would like to discuss layout topics
  272. # [18:36] <fantasai> dbaron: Conditional on how much time I have to look at stuff before TPAC, might want to discuss CSS3 Values
  273. # [18:37] <fantasai> sylvaing: dbaron, we also had some discussions about what happens to the test suite and the spec after CSS2.1 goes to REC
  274. # [18:37] <fantasai> glazou: Anything else?
  275. # [18:38] <fantasai> glazou: If you have any extra agenda items, either send to csswg mailing list or add to wiki or both
  276. # [18:38] <fantasai> Topic: @font-face
  277. # [18:38] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Oct/0161.html
  278. # [18:38] <fantasai> Beth: So, I think unfortunately we have not come up with any syntax that makes sense, but after thinking it over, if we think it's a real problem
  279. # [18:39] <fantasai> Beth: which I think we do, given the bug reports that have come in,
  280. # [18:39] <fantasai> Bether: We think there should be a way for authors to say what they would want to happen
  281. # [18:39] <ChrisL> having a descriptor puts all the capability with the author. a property would allow author control and user preference override
  282. # [18:39] <ChrisL> q+
  283. # [18:39] * Zakim sees ChrisL on the speaker queue
  284. # [18:39] <fantasai> Beth: A user preference also makes sense. Some users will hate the flash of unstyled content, and others will hate not seeing text
  285. # [18:39] <fantasai> Beth: I don't have any concrete suggestions
  286. # [18:40] <fantasai> glazou: Just to summarize, it's a fallback mechanism to say what happens if the font has not downloaded yet
  287. # [18:40] <fantasai> jdaggett: WebKit shows no content until the font loads
  288. # [18:40] <fantasai> jdaggett: Mozilla renders with the fallback font until the font loads
  289. # [18:40] <fantasai> jdaggett: Our current thinking is to put a timeout
  290. # [18:40] <fantasai> jdaggett: Initially you don't show anything, but after a certain time, you fall back to the fallback font
  291. # [18:40] <howcome> Opera has a user-setable timeout
  292. # [18:41] <fantasai> jdaggett: The question is what's the right timeout
  293. # [18:41] <fantasai> jdaggett: And in some cases this may cause a worse situation
  294. # [18:41] <fantasai> jdaggett: you get two flashes
  295. # [18:41] <fantasai> jdaggett: It's a tradeoff between readability and usability and not having these flashes
  296. # [18:41] <ChrisL> q?
  297. # [18:41] * Zakim sees ChrisL on the speaker queue
  298. # [18:41] <fantasai> glazou: howcome says they have a user-setable timeout
  299. # [18:41] <ChrisL> zakim, unmute me
  300. # [18:41] <Zakim> ChrisL was not muted, ChrisL
  301. # [18:42] <fantasai> jdaggett: My thought was to put it in a user-controllable setting
  302. # [18:42] <howcome> Indeed, it's a tradeoff. Complex equation with many variables.
  303. # [18:42] <fantasai> Beth: We would prefer an author control
  304. # [18:42] <fantasai> ChrisL: The problem is that the suggestion was a descriptor, which isn't author-overrideable
  305. # [18:42] <fantasai> ChrisL: There were two parts suggestion: you could say whether you wanted a blank or a fallback, and you could also set a timeout
  306. # [18:43] <fantasai> jdaggett: You could get fallback immediately by setting a zero timeout.
  307. # [18:43] <fantasai> jdaggett: The one thing about a property is that it doesn't make sense as something in the cascade.
  308. # [18:43] <fantasai> fantasai: Cascading it makes sense. Per-element doesn't make sense
  309. # [18:44] <fantasai> ?: could set it on the root
  310. # [18:44] <TabAtkins_> s/?/TabAtkins
  311. # [18:44] <fantasai> sylvain: I think it's weird to have that as a property
  312. # [18:45] <ChrisL> or you have a fast network, but are in Australia
  313. # [18:45] <fantasai> fantasai: The appropriate timeout will depend on the network
  314. # [18:45] <ChrisL> zakim, mute me
  315. # [18:45] <Zakim> ChrisL should now be muted
  316. # [18:45] <fantasai> fantasai: You'd want immediate fallback if you're on dialup
  317. # [18:45] <fantasai> sylvaing: It seems we don't have the implementation experience to design a property right now
  318. # [18:46] <fantasai> sylvaing: Do we need a property? Why not a UA setting?
  319. # [18:46] <fantasai> sylvaing: I don't think we've proved that we need a property instead of a UA setting.
  320. # [18:46] * Joins: dsinger_ (dsinger@17.244.75.82)
  321. # [18:46] <fantasai> jdaggett: You could make a rule that you have a timeout, but it's influenced whether there's any network activity happening at all
  322. # [18:46] * Bert thinks, no matter what the time-out, applying a font to the whole of the HTML5 draft will still take longer. :-)
  323. # [18:46] <fantasai> jdaggett: if there's no reply to your font download request, no packets, then you fallback immediately
  324. # [18:46] <howcome> I support Sylvain (on this :)
  325. # [18:46] <fantasai> jdaggett: you can't do that with a timeout propert
  326. # [18:46] <fantasai> y
  327. # [18:46] <ChrisL> @timeout(torrents-on, 5s)
  328. # [18:47] <fantasai> glazou: Do you want a normative note?
  329. # [18:47] * Joins: alexmog (alexmog@131.107.0.71)
  330. # [18:47] <fantasai> jdaggett: I think it makes sense to discuss this in the spec, but I'm not sure that it should be an author-controlled property
  331. # [18:47] <fantasai> Beth: I think we would still like an author-controlled property, but I recognize it's an odd thing
  332. # [18:47] <fantasai> Beth: We think that a user-controlled property isn't going to solve the problem for most users
  333. # [18:47] <fantasai> ...
  334. # [18:48] <fantasai> Beth: I can see the author wanting to note that this font is critical to the page, but this other one is a nice-to-have
  335. # [18:48] <dsinger_> Maybe a 'temporary substitute' font indication from the source?
  336. # [18:48] <fantasai> Smfr: Could also control this via JavaScript
  337. # [18:48] * Joins: bradk (bradk@166.205.139.62)
  338. # [18:49] <ChrisL> zakim, unmute me
  339. # [18:49] <Zakim> ChrisL should no longer be muted
  340. # [18:49] <fantasai> Smfr: Add an even tfor font download
  341. # [18:49] <fantasai> jdaggett: might be a good idea independent of this issue
  342. # [18:49] <dsinger_> S/even tfor/event for/
  343. # [18:49] <fantasai> ChrisL: drawing with canvas is tricky, since you currently don't know when the font is there
  344. # [18:50] <fantasai> glazou: You also need an event to know the font is not loaded, could not be loaded
  345. # [18:50] <fantasai> or UA is waiting
  346. # [18:50] <fantasai> smfr: we have the same problem for images
  347. # [18:50] <fantasai> glazou: I think the two approaches are really interesting.
  348. # [18:50] <fantasai> glazou: Probably not something we're going to solve now
  349. # [18:51] <Zakim> + +1.650.766.aacc
  350. # [18:51] <fantasai> glazou: Beth and ?, can you come up with something more concrete for tpac?
  351. # [18:51] <fantasai> yes
  352. # [18:51] <fantasai> Topic: writing-mode
  353. # [18:52] <fantasai> glazou: Lots of messages from hyatt
  354. # [18:52] <fantasai> fantasai: I just need to work those comments into the spec as I draft it; nothing to discuss here today.
  355. # [18:53] * Quits: bradk (bradk@166.205.139.62) (Ping timeout)
  356. # [18:54] <jdaggett> http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~eb2m-mrt/epub/rec2WG.html
  357. # [18:54] * glazou wonders what fantasai has for breakfast ;-)
  358. # [18:54] <glazou> s/has/had
  359. # [18:54] <fantasai> jdaggett has concerns about the fact that logical properties are in the draft
  360. # [18:54] <fantasai> and that people think it will be approved by the CSSWG
  361. # [18:54] * fantasai hasn't had breakfast
  362. # [18:54] <glazou> aaah :)
  363. # [18:55] <fantasai> jdaggett: We shouldn't be representing these as anything that is stable or approved by the CSSWG
  364. # [18:55] <howcome> I share John's concerns on this.
  365. # [18:55] <fantasai> jdaggett: People are going off and implementing this with the idea that this is going to work into the later stage
  366. # [18:55] <fantasai> fantasai: So what do you want me to do?
  367. # [18:56] <howcome> I suggest removing that part of the spec for now, or add the other credible proposals as well and ask for feedback
  368. # [18:56] <fantasai> jdaggett: These have a lot of side effects on all properties, and there is not enough detail in the spec about these interactions
  369. # [18:57] <fantasai> fantasai: I AM NOT DONE DRAFTING THIS YET.
  370. # [18:57] * Quits: Hixie (ianh@129.241.93.37) (Ping timeout)
  371. # [18:57] <fantasai> fantasai: obviously there are not enough details!
  372. # [18:57] * Joins: Hixie (ianh@129.241.93.37)
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  374. # [18:57] <jdaggett> jdaggett: we should not be talking about this spec as something that is ready to go to candidate recommendation
  375. # [18:58] <fantasai> who is talking about this spec as something that is ready for CR?
  376. # [18:58] <jdaggett> jdaggett: the notes from the EPUB discussion
  377. # [18:58] * dsinger_ a working draft is, um, a draft. If you write code against it you need to understand its stability and status
  378. # [18:58] <fantasai> Topic: multicol
  379. # [18:59] * Bert it's not even a working draft yet. But that is difficult to explain to people. :-(
  380. # [18:59] <fantasai> glazou: Discussion that if the columns are taller than the viewport, it is very awkward to read
  381. # [18:59] <kojiishi> notes from EPUB was updated since then
  382. # [18:59] <fantasai> glazou: The first proposal is to have a note saying that giving a higher height than the viewport to a multicol element provides accessibility/usability issues
  383. # [19:00] <fantasai> glazou: The second one is to add another control to have more control over the height of the multicol element
  384. # [19:00] <ChrisL> it would be nice to fix that for tables too
  385. # [19:00] <fantasai> sylvaing: We have the same issue with tables
  386. # [19:01] <fantasai> glazou: I would suggest a note, I will send to the mailing list, to make it clear
  387. # [19:01] * Joins: arronei (arronei@131.107.0.75)
  388. # [19:01] <fantasai> Bert: overflow on any element causes problems
  389. # [19:01] <fantasai> glazou: Tables and multicol are the ones where you have to scroll back and forth a lot
  390. # [19:01] * dbaron had a wacky idea in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Nov/0286.html
  391. # [19:01] <fantasai> glazou: Setting overflow is a decision from the author
  392. # [19:02] <fantasai> ACTION glazou: Propose note for multicol explaining the problem with column lengths longer than the viewport
  393. # [19:02] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  394. # [19:02] * RRSAgent records action 2
  395. # [19:02] <trackbot> Created ACTION-269 - Propose note for multicol explaining the problem with column lengths longer than the viewport [on Daniel Glazman - due 2010-10-27].
  396. # [19:03] <fantasai> Tab will prepare his proposal and flexbox topics for discussion at TPAC
  397. # [19:03] <Zakim> -David_Baron
  398. # [19:03] <fantasai> Meeting closed.
  399. # [19:03] <Zakim> -jdaggett
  400. # [19:03] <Zakim> -ChrisL
  401. # [19:03] <Zakim> -[Apple]
  402. # [19:03] <Zakim> -sylvaing
  403. # [19:03] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  404. # [19:03] <Zakim> - +1.650.766.aacc
  405. # [19:03] <Zakim> -plinss
  406. # [19:03] <Zakim> -Bert
  407. # [19:03] <Zakim> -glazou
  408. # [19:03] <Zakim> -kojiishi
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  410. # [19:04] <Zakim> -smfr
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  415. # [19:07] <Zakim> -fantasai
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  421. # [19:12] <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, TabAtkins_, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
  422. # [19:12] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  423. # [19:12] <Zakim> Attendees were dsinger, jdaggett, glazou, +1.253.307.aaaa, smfr, +1.650.253.aabb, plinss, TabAtkins_, arronei, kojiishi, Bert, fantasai, sylvaing, David_Baron, dethbakin, ChrisL,
  424. # [19:12] <Zakim> ... +1.650.766.aacc
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  440. # [21:34] <fantasai> RRSAgent: make minutes
  441. # [21:34] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/20-CSS-minutes.html fantasai
  442. # [21:34] <fantasai> RRSAgent: pointer
  443. # [21:34] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2010/10/20-CSS-irc#T19-31-48
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  457. # Session Close: Thu Oct 21 00:00:00 2010

The end :)