/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2010-11-17 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Nov 17 00:00:00 2010
# Session Ident: #css
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# [04:03] * Topic is 'CSS Working Group Discussion - Logged to http://log.csswg.org/irc.w3.org/css/'
# [04:03] * Set by plinss on Fri Nov 12 07:38:54
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# [17:17] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/11/17-CSS-irc
# [17:17] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
# [17:17] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 45 minutes
# [17:18] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [17:18] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
# [17:57] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
# [17:57] <Zakim> +glazou
# [17:58] * Joins: oyvind (oyvinds@213.236.208.22)
# [17:58] <Zakim> +plinss_
# [17:59] * Joins: bradk (bradk@99.7.175.117)
# [18:00] <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
# [18:01] <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou (9%)
# [18:01] <glazou> hmmm
# [18:01] <glazou> of course, white noise stops when Zakim listens
# [18:01] <Zakim> +Tal
# [18:02] <Zakim> + +1.781.266.aaaa - is perhaps Cathy_Chan?
# [18:02] <Zakim> -Cathy_Chan?
# [18:02] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
# [18:03] <jdaggett> zakim, +[IPcaller] is jdaggett
# [18:03] <Zakim> sorry, jdaggett, I do not recognize a party named '+[IPcaller]'
# [18:03] * Joins: kojiishi (kojiishi@222.158.227.129)
# [18:03] <jdaggett> zakim, IPcaller is jdaggett
# [18:03] <Zakim> +jdaggett; got it
# [18:03] <Zakim> + +1.415.920.aabb
# [18:03] <Zakim> + +1.650.275.aacc
# [18:03] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
# [18:03] <bradk> Zakim, aacc is me
# [18:04] <Zakim> +bradk; got it
# [18:04] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
# [18:04] <arronei> zakim, has alexmog and arronei
# [18:04] <Zakim> I don't understand 'has alexmog and arronei', arronei
# [18:04] <arronei> zakim, microsoft has alexmog and arronei
# [18:04] <Zakim> +alexmog, arronei; got it
# [18:04] * Joins: JohnJan (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [18:04] * Joins: tabatkin1 (tabatkins@216.239.45.4)
# [18:04] <JohnJan> zakim, microsoft is johnjan
# [18:04] <Zakim> +johnjan; got it
# [18:05] <Zakim> +??P18
# [18:05] <Zakim> + +1.650.214.aadd
# [18:05] <kojiishi> zakim, ??P18 is me
# [18:05] <Zakim> +kojiishi; got it
# [18:05] <tabatkin1> zakim, aadd is me
# [18:05] <Zakim> +tabatkin1; got it
# [18:05] <Zakim> + +1.781.266.aaee - is perhaps Cathy_Chan?
# [18:05] <Zakim> +Bert
# [18:05] <glazou> Zakim, aaee is Cathy_Chan
# [18:05] <Zakim> sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named 'aaee'
# [18:06] * Joins: smfr (smfr@17.203.14.12)
# [18:06] <glazou> Zakim, +aaee is Cathy_Chan
# [18:06] <Zakim> sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named '+aaee'
# [18:06] <plinss> zakim, who is on the phone?
# [18:06] <Zakim> On the phone I see glazou, plinss_, Tal, jdaggett, +1.415.920.aabb, bradk, johnjan, [Microsoft.a], kojiishi, tabatkin1, Cathy_Chan?, Bert
# [18:06] <tabatkin1> zakim, aaee is Cathy_Chan
# [18:06] <Zakim> johnjan has alexmog, arronei
# [18:06] <jdaggett> zakim, aaee is Cathy_Chan
# [18:06] <Zakim> sorry, tabatkin1, I do not recognize a party named 'aaee'
# [18:06] <Zakim> sorry, jdaggett, I do not recognize a party named 'aaee'
# [18:06] <Zakim> +ChrisL
# [18:06] <Zakim> +smfr
# [18:07] <jdaggett> zakim, you're a bugger sometime
# [18:07] <Zakim> I don't understand 'you're a bugger sometime', jdaggett
# [18:07] * Joins: alexmog (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [18:08] <tabatkin1> ScribeNick: tabatkin1
# [18:08] <tabatkin1> plinss: Any late agenda additions?
# [18:08] <tabatkin1> arronei: My email about the attr() function.
# [18:09] <tabatkin1> arronei: At the meeting I thought we discussed marking it at-risk, but I didn't see it in the at-risk list for Values & Units. Are there additional updates pending, or did we decide not to mark it at risk.
# [18:09] <Zakim> +dsinger
# [18:10] <tabatkin1> plinss: Doesn't seem that anyone really remembers...
# [18:10] * Joins: dsinger_ (dsinger@67.218.103.254)
# [18:10] <dsinger_> zakim, mute dsinger
# [18:10] <Zakim> dsinger should now be muted
# [18:10] <tabatkin1> arronei: I don't think anyone really implements it, except for a partial impl from us (and maybe FF).
# [18:10] <tabatkin1> fantasai: There's no harm in marking something at-risk.
# [18:11] <tabatkin1> RESOLVED: Mark the attr() function in Values & Units as at-risk.
# [18:11] <tabatkin1> Topic: Getting 2.1 done
# [18:11] * Joins: szilles (chatzilla@24.6.120.172)
# [18:11] <tabatkin1> plinss: How's work on RC4 coming?
# [18:11] <oyvind> I believe we (Opera) implement it too
# [18:12] * Joins: cathy (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [18:12] <tabatkin1> fantasai: I haven't worked on the testsuite since TPAC, so that's my plan today and the rest of the week.
# [18:12] <glazou> hmmmmm
# [18:12] <plinss> zakim, aabb is fantasai
# [18:12] <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
# [18:12] <tabatkin1> JohnJan: Does this friday still seem like a doable deadline?
# [18:12] * alexmog likes Daniel's proposal for named gridlines
# [18:12] <Zakim> -glazou
# [18:12] <tabatkin1> fantasai: Not Friday. I think Monday was the deadline? Maybe.
# [18:12] <szilles> I am getting, "the conference is full, no more parties can be added at this time" message
# [18:12] <tabatkin1> fantasai: I'm sure I can fix all my tests, but I'm not sure how many Hixie/Moz/etc. tests I'd need to update.
# [18:13] <glazou> I lost zakim
# [18:13] <tabatkin1> JohnJan: So the expectation is for vendors to review your changes by Dec 3rd...
# [18:13] <Zakim> +glazou
# [18:13] * glazou is back
# [18:13] <cathy> zakim, aaaa is me
# [18:13] <Zakim> sorry, cathy, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
# [18:13] <glazou> szilles: european bridge worked for me
# [18:13] <tabatkin1> JohnJan: If you could get them done before Thanksgiving, I could spend some time over thanksgiving weekend doing reviews.
# [18:13] <glazou> Zakim, aaee is cathy
# [18:13] <Zakim> sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named 'aaee'
# [18:13] <tabatkin1> plinss: is there anyone else who can help with that?
# [18:13] <glazou> grr Zakim you're painful
# [18:13] <tabatkin1> zakim, who is on the phone?
# [18:13] <Zakim> On the phone I see plinss_, Tal, jdaggett, fantasai, bradk, johnjan, [Microsoft.a], kojiishi, tabatkin1, Cathy_Chan?, Bert, ChrisL, smfr, dsinger (muted), glazou
# [18:13] <Zakim> johnjan has alexmog, arronei
# [18:13] <glazou> Zakim, Cathy_Chan? is cathy
# [18:13] <Zakim> +cathy; got it
# [18:14] <glazou> aaah
# [18:14] * dsinger_ I always thought glazou was front center
# [18:14] <cathy> glazou, thanks
# [18:14] <glazou> np
# [18:14] <tabatkin1> plinss: Any CSS2.1 issues?
# [18:15] <tabatkin1> fantasai: The white-space property says linebreaks are only caused by linefeed chars, but that doesn't include the lineseparator character, which isn't collapsed and which has bidi implications.
# [18:15] <fantasai> s/has/has different/
# [18:16] <tabatkin1> fantasai: So maybe we should change 2.1 to say that any noncollapsed characters that, per unicode, should force a linebreak, should force a linebreak.
# [18:16] * Bert thinks we may have to increase our zakim reservation from 15 slots to something higher, if the group keeps growing...
# [18:16] <tabatkin1> bradk: Any danger that people might accidentally have them in their source?
# [18:16] * ChrisL thinks so
# [18:17] <tabatkin1> fantasai: Probably not - they're pretty hard to type.
# [18:17] <szilles> Bert, I still cannot get on to the phone
# [18:17] <tabatkin1> tabatkin1: It feels like any breakage that would occur would be extremely minor.
# [18:18] <tabatkin1> tabatkin1: Changing this would mean we need new tests?
# [18:18] <Bert> szilles, we have 15 slots full. I think zakim won't allow any more :-(
# [18:18] <tabatkin1> fantasai: I'm already using them in a bidi testcase right now, so it's already there.
# [18:18] <fantasai> szilles, send me your phone number
# [18:18] * Quits: JohnJan (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
# [18:18] <tabatkin1> plinss: So are we willing to make that change?
# [18:19] * dsinger_ I will hang up in a sec and free a line
# [18:19] * Quits: dsinger_ (dsinger@67.218.103.254) (Quit: Rooms • iPhone IRC Client • http://www.roomsapp.mobi)
# [18:19] <Zakim> -dsinger
# [18:19] * szilles fantasai, my phone number is 408-356-7692
# [18:19] * Joins: dsinger_ (dsinger@67.218.103.254)
# [18:19] <tabatkin1> tabatkin1: I'm probably not in a good position to make the decision, but since we already are testing for it incidentally, I'm okay with it.
# [18:20] <tabatkin1> plinss: Do we have any passes on the relevant tests?
# [18:20] <tabatkin1> fantasai: No.
# [18:20] * Quits: dsinger_ (dsinger@67.218.103.254) (Quit: Rooms • iPhone IRC Client • http://www.roomsapp.mobi)
# [18:20] <Zakim> +SteveZ
# [18:21] <tabatkin1> fantasai: I think it's important to have going forward, because HTML5 needs the disctinction in linebreaking characters to handle some of its bidi bugs.
# [18:21] <tabatkin1> plinss: If nobody passes a relevant test yet for it I'm uncomfortable actually requiring it, but I'm okay with leaving it undefined.
# [18:22] <tabatkin1> tabatkin1: Elika, are you okay with changing the text to explicitly say that the linebreaking behavior of other unicode linebreaking characters is explicitly undefined?
# [18:22] <tabatkin1> fantasai: Yes. It makes it hard to test some bidi things, but oh well.
# [18:22] <tabatkin1> RESOLVED: Make it explicit in CSS2.1 that other unicode linebreaking characters have undefined linebreaking behavior.
# [18:23] <tabatkin1> plinss: With RC3 of our testsuite, we need 800 more passes. 700 or so them we just need more results for.
# [18:23] <tabatkin1> s/700/770/
# [18:24] <plinss> http://test.csswg.org/harness/results?s=CSS21_%HTML_RC3&f=29
# [18:24] <tabatkin1> tabatkin1: As soon as RC4 publishes I'll do another full IR for Chrome.
# [18:24] <tabatkin1> plinss: What bothers me is that we have about 100 tests that nobody passes right now.
# [18:24] <tabatkin1> plinss: So this worries me. We need to determine if the tests are wrong, or if impls are wrong, or change the spec, or argue that we can live with this failure and defend it somehow.
# [18:25] <tabatkin1> arronei: I know a fair number of the cases hinge on RC4 updates, and browsers pass after the tests are fixed.
# [18:25] <tabatkin1> JohnJan: I think we also need to look at ones that only 1 browser has passed.
# [18:26] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.240)
# [18:26] <tabatkin1> smfr: One criteria on impl is that the build must be at least a month old. Does this mean that if we make a change to fix a pass, we have to wait a month?
# [18:27] <tabatkin1> plinss: One of the IR requirements is that the feature must have been stable for at least a month, to guard against a custom nightly to pass a test that doesn't make it into main stream.
# [18:27] <tabatkin1> plinss: That doesn't affect whether or not we can use super-recent builds, it just means we'll have to wait a month to report the results.
# [18:28] * Joins: howcome (howcome@213.236.208.22)
# [18:28] <tabatkin1> plinss: It's really just a restriction meant to keep people from gaming the system.
# [18:28] <dbaron> Sorry for being late. Zakim won't let me in to the call.
# [18:28] * howcome tries to join, but zakim says the conference is full...
# [18:28] <dbaron> The first time it said the conference is full
# [18:28] <tabatkin1> plinss: arron, do you know how many blocking tests have been changed?
# [18:28] <dbaron> and the rest it said the passcode isn't valid.
# [18:28] <tabatkin1> arronei: Not off the top of my head.
# [18:28] * tabatkin1 dbaron, howcome, we're full. ;_;
# [18:29] <dbaron> Zakim, who is on the phone?
# [18:29] <Zakim> On the phone I see plinss_, Tal, jdaggett, fantasai, bradk, johnjan, [Microsoft.a], kojiishi, tabatkin1, cathy, Bert, ChrisL, smfr, glazou, SteveZ
# [18:29] <Zakim> johnjan has alexmog, arronei
# [18:29] <tabatkin1> plinss: I'd like to get this list on the wiki so people can start doing analysis.
# [18:29] <tabatkin1> JohnJan: Seems right to me.
# [18:29] <tabatkin1> plinss: So who can commit to making the page?
# [18:30] <tabatkin1> arronei: I was going to start working on that data anyway, so I can work on that page.
# [18:30] <dbaron> Elika conferenced me in to the call now
# [18:30] <tabatkin1> arronei: I can get at least halfway today - definitely all the tests listed, not necessarily all of them with details.
# [18:30] <tabatkin1> JohnJan: That would be a great start.
# [18:30] <fantasai> can someone conference in howcome?
# [18:30] <tabatkin1> plinss: Ideally by next week I'd like to have a list of testcases where we need to start discussing spec changes.
# [18:30] * fantasai can only connect two lines
# [18:31] <Bert> zakim, fantasai also has dbaron
# [18:31] <Zakim> +dbaron; got it
# [18:31] * tabatkin1 doesn't know his own number, so can't.
# [18:31] <arronei> http://wiki.csswg.org/test/css2.1/results
# [18:31] * howcome doesn't know his own number
# [18:31] * fantasai thinks the second one is the real problem :P
# [18:31] * glazou is going to report about Zakim failures to W3M
# [18:31] <tabatkin1> plinss: So everyone dig into this and start reporting status for these tests.
# [18:31] * Bert thinks so to :-) I could patch in howcome otherwise...
# [18:32] * fantasai glazou, the problem is we have a 15-person limit on our call. We need to increase the limit
# [18:32] <tabatkin1> TOPIC: Percentage intrinsic widths and heights
# [18:32] * Bert to Chris: I will send a request for more zakim slots, unless you have already done so...
# [18:32] <glazou> fantasai: UUUUH ?
# [18:32] <tabatkin1> plinss: Last week we wanted to remove percentage intrinsic widths and heights, but were waiting for feedback from Apple.
# [18:32] <glazou> Bert: seriously ??? 15 slots only on US bridge ?
# [18:32] <tabatkin1> plinss: We got that now, and they're okay with it. Any other objections before we resolve?
# [18:33] * fantasai glazou Zakim reserves a certain number of slots for each conf call. Our standing reservation has 15
# [18:33] * howcome is on +47 23 69 30 20
# [18:33] <glazou> d'oh
# [18:33] * Bert to glazou: yes, when we reserved that many years ago, that was all that we needed...
# [18:33] <tabatkin1> RESOLVED: Remove the concept of percentage widths and heights from CSS2.1.
# [18:33] <dbaron> s/percentage widths/percentage intrinsic widths/
# [18:33] * glazou Bert, i suggest upgrading a bit then...
# [18:33] * tabatkin1 dbaron, d'oh
# [18:33] * howcome will try calling the French bridge
# [18:33] <tabatkin1> Topic: clip() logical vs physical
# [18:33] * glazou howcome worked for me
# [18:34] * Bert sent off the request for more slots.
# [18:34] <tabatkin1> arronei: clip in the spec is defined logically, so in other writing modes it will rotate, but all impls instead do physical.
# [18:34] <Bert> zakim, mute me
# [18:34] <Zakim> Bert should now be muted
# [18:34] <tabatkin1> arronei: I think we just need to change the spec for it.
# [18:35] * Bert will try calling howcome
# [18:35] <tabatkin1> arronei: If we changed impls to be logical it would probably break spriting techniques.
# [18:35] <tabatkin1> dbaron: I think the original intention was to make it logical wrt overflow, or something like that.
# [18:35] <tabatkin1> dbaron: But there's been a ton of change in this section, so I'm not even sure anymore.
# [18:36] * howcome is in
# [18:36] <Bert> zakim, bert also has howcome
# [18:36] <Zakim> +howcome; got it
# [18:36] * Joins: Yves (ylafon@128.30.52.169)
# [18:36] <tabatkin1> smfr: I talked to Hyatt and he thinks it should by physical.
# [18:37] <Bert> zakim, unmute me
# [18:37] <Zakim> Bert should no longer be muted
# [18:37] <tabatkin1> RESOLVED: Update definition of clip to be physical in nature.
# [18:37] <tabatkin1> arronei: And now we'll have to think in CSS3 if we want to define a logical version. ^_^
# [18:37] <tabatkin1> plinss: Do we have tests currently testing for this behavior?
# [18:38] <tabatkin1> arronei: No. I created a test for the mail, but we don't actually have a test testing for logical/physical. I can convert the test I wrote into one for the testsuite.
# [18:38] * ChrisL adminreq has been sent, asking for 20 slots instead of 15 from now on
# [18:38] <tabatkin1> plinss: If it falls out of your work, do it; I was just wondering if there were any tests needing to be changed.
# [18:38] <tabatkin1> Topic: Double slash in border-image
# [18:39] <glazou> Yves: please
# [18:39] <Zakim> -ChrisL
# [18:39] * Yves will be there in 2 secs
# [18:39] <glazou> cool
# [18:39] * ChrisL drops off to let Yves join
# [18:39] * Yves zakim, code?
# [18:39] * Zakim saw 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479) given for the conference code, Yves
# [18:39] * tabatkin1 Thanks, ChrisL!
# [18:39] <glazou> thanks ChrisL
# [18:40] <Zakim> + +1.617.324.aaff
# [18:40] <tabatkin1> zakim, aaff is Yves
# [18:40] <Zakim> +Yves; got it
# [18:40] <Yves> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Nov/0078.html
# [18:41] <tabatkin1> Yves: The issue is the same as the previous one for background shorthand.
# [18:41] <tabatkin1> Yves: In background, it was possible previously to have a background starting with a /.
# [18:41] <tabatkin1> Yves: Now in border-image there is the possibility of having two /s in a row with no content between them.
# [18:42] <tabatkin1> Yves: Since / is used as a separator, it means that if you have a parser you'll get nothing in between, which causes a problem in the grammar.
# [18:42] <tabatkin1> tabatkin1: That's just an empty group, right?
# [18:43] <tabatkin1> Yves: It causes a loop in grammar-based parsers. I suggest a value to indicate that there is supposed to be nothing in the group.
# [18:43] <tabatkin1> dbaron: I don't understand the problem with the slashes. Is it a technical problem, or is just something you don't like to look at?
# [18:43] <tabatkin1> Yves: In CSS2.1 it says it's a separator.
# [18:43] <tabatkin1> dbaron: What part of CSS says it's a separator?
# [18:44] <tabatkin1> Bert: In the non-normative appendix only. In the normative grammar it's just a token.
# [18:44] <tabatkin1> dbaron: So I don't believe this is really a grammar issue.
# [18:44] <tabatkin1> Bert: Depends on how strongly you believe in Appendix G.
# [18:44] <tabatkin1> fantasai: We did mark it non-normative.
# [18:44] <dbaron> I think Appendix G was also intended to be for CSS 2 and not forward-compatible.
# [18:45] <tabatkin1> Bert: It might be easy to use a different separator.
# [18:45] <tabatkin1> fantasai: The current syntax has already hit CR.
# [18:45] <tabatkin1> Yves: I think that what you want is not really a separator, but rather something that indicates the next section is not what you would have expected, but a group higher up.
# [18:46] <tabatkin1> Yves: If it was not a separator, but some other character without that meaning in CSS2.1, it would be better.
# [18:46] * glazou notes that CR is NOT an excuse for a potentially problematic syntax
# [18:47] <tabatkin1> Yves: This issue was raised when we talked about background properties; it's been around for a while. It's just that only background was fixed at the time, not this one too.
# [18:47] * fantasai doesn't see this as problematic, though. It doesn't violate the core grammar, nobody else has raised an implementability concern. It only violates the non-normative appendix grammar that is specific to CSS Level 2
# [18:47] * glazou Yves does raise an implementability concern right now
# [18:48] <sylvaing> I'd rather not change background syntax now
# [18:48] * Yves it's not problemaic if you create a css3 parser or a css21 parser, but one that needs to read both... it's different :)
# [18:48] <tabatkin1> Bert: I agree it looks kind of ugly to have two slashes, but I don't think it's a fundamental problem.
# [18:48] <dbaron> I think the "implementability concern" would also mean we'd need to remove most of css3-selectors.
# [18:48] <Yves> not background, border-image
# [18:49] <tabatkin1> Yves: It's an issue if you want to pass both 2.1 and 3.
# [18:50] <tabatkin1> fantasai: Why can't you change the parser to parse the / per CSS3? What in 2 wouldn't you be able to parse by making that change?
# [18:50] <fantasai> s/pass/parse/
# [18:50] <tabatkin1> Yves: Basically it would mean changing most of it.
# [18:50] <tabatkin1> Bert: Only one place uses that right now, the font shorthand?
# [18:50] <tabatkin1> sylvaing: Why do we need one parser that can read both, as opposed to two parsers?
# [18:50] <jdaggett> howcome: maybe we should have double-slash comments?
# [18:51] <tabatkin1> Yves: That's the code I have right now, and there's no version indicator in CSS to switch off of.
# [18:51] <ChrisL> sylvaing - because there is no verson ihfo in css files, and they can contain a mix of syntaxes from different levels
# [18:51] <tabatkin1> bradk: You can't just parse "//" as "/initial/"?
# [18:52] <sylvaing> ChrisL, so what ? you can run it through 21 and do 3 if that fails.
# [18:53] * fantasai doesn't understand why Yves cannot change '/' to parse as a normal token instead of something special
# [18:53] <tabatkin1> tabatkin1: So what's the problem again? This is a CSS3 property, not a 2.1 property. Why does it matter?
# [18:54] <tabatkin1> Yves: The way the parser/grammar works, it doesn't know this is a CSS3 property yet and so just registers a general parse error.
# [18:54] <tabatkin1> dbaron: I think the problem is the parser using Appendix G.
# [18:55] * Quits: arronei (arronei@131.107.0.102) (Ping timeout)
# [18:55] * smfr has to duck out early; apologies
# [18:55] <Zakim> -smfr
# [18:55] <tabatkin1> Yves: If the / isn't used in CSS2.1 I can deal with this.
# [18:55] * glazou this is another proof we don't have levels but versions...
# [18:55] * Parts: smfr (smfr@17.203.14.12)
# [18:55] <tabatkin1> fantasai: it's used only in the font shorthand.
# [18:55] <tabatkin1> Yves: I can see about that, but I'd like it removed from the Appendix too.
# [18:55] <ChrisL> @version 2.1;
# [18:55] <Bert> :-)
# [18:55] * Yves if / was used as a separator in CSS3, then it won't be a different version ;)
# [18:56] <glazou> plinss: move to next topic ?
# [18:56] <tabatkin1> Bert: We talked about removing the appendix entirely, because it confuses people.
# [18:56] <tabatkin1> plinss: So any quick wrapup on this?
# [18:56] * fantasai suggests treating '/' as a unary operator
# [18:56] <fantasai> or something similar
# [18:57] <Bert> (Anybody has engineers with free time to help update the validator?...)
# [18:57] <tabatkin1> tabatkin1: The fix is just to change Appendix G, right? That doesn't affect anything else in CSS.
# [18:58] <glazou> ChrisL: this level/version thing plagues us
# [18:58] * fantasai thinks she should owe jdaggett a drink for staying so long on the call. Maybe a chammomile tea or something. :)
# [18:58] <ChrisL> glazou, i agree it does
# [18:59] * jdaggett eyes are rolling back in his head now
# [18:59] <tabatkin1> dbaron: The point of Appendix G is *just* for CSS2.1.
# [18:59] <glazou> plinss: let's move on for jdaggett 's sake :)
# [18:59] <ChrisL> and it would be lovely to tie the validator to css-beijing or snapshot or whatever
# [18:59] * jdaggett i will hate the backslash character till the end of my days
# [18:59] <tabatkin1> tabatkin1: [stuff about it only mattering for validating CSS2.1]
# [18:59] <glazou> jdaggett: slash
# [18:59] * ChrisL tired of removing orange or ::before from stylesheets to pass pubrules
# [18:59] <glazou> jdaggett: or your nights ?
# [18:59] <Zakim> -cathy
# [18:59] <tabatkin1> fantasai: I suggest *not* using the Appendix G grammar, and just changing the grammar the impl is using to match what you need.
# [19:00] * jdaggett those too...
# [19:00] * bradk likes the backslash, and thinks it is used elegantly in border-image
# [19:00] * Joins: arronei (arronei@131.107.0.75)
# [19:00] <tabatkin1> Yves: i can look at that, but I'd want appendix G grammar to b eupdated for forwards-compatibility.
# [19:00] * sylvaing now reminded of O.J. Simpson joke on his home page being slash-slash-backslash-escape
# [19:01] <glazou> ROFL
# [19:01] <glazou> TIME !!!
# [19:01] <tabatkin1> fantasai: What we're trying to tell you is the appendix G is *not* meant to be a forwards-compatible grammar, it's *only* for CSS2.1. The more restrictive and specialized for 2.1 it is, the better it is at its goal. That is not your goal, that's okay.
# [19:01] * Yves usure, thanks for your time!
# [19:01] <tabatkin1> plinss: let's take the rest of this discussion to email.
# [19:01] <Zakim> -Yves
# [19:01] <tabatkin1> Topic: Transition requests
# [19:02] * Yves left, chris, you can rejoin (thanks!)
# [19:02] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2010OctDec/0180.html
# [19:02] * ChrisL for one minute?
# [19:02] * tabatkin1 ChrisL, about transition requests.
# [19:02] <tabatkin1> plinss: Elika entered 4 requests. First was 2007 snapshot transition to CR.
# [19:03] * Quits: cathy (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
# [19:03] <tabatkin1> RESOLVED: Push 2007 snapshot to CR.
# [19:03] <ChrisL> conferenc eis restricted at this time
# [19:03] <tabatkin1> plinss: B&B
# [19:04] * Parts: Yves (ylafon@128.30.52.169)
# [19:04] <tabatkin1> plinss: Yves issue is the only one that was raised, apparently?
# [19:04] <tabatkin1> fantasai: There were others raised.
# [19:04] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-background/issues-lc-2010
# [19:04] <ChrisL> Can't rejoin. I support the publication requests
# [19:04] <tabatkin1> plinss: The others were all addressed?
# [19:04] <tabatkin1> fantasai: Yeah.
# [19:04] <tabatkin1> plinss: So for the // issue am I hearing that we aren't accepting it as an issue?
# [19:05] <tabatkin1> fantasai: It's past the deadline, but I can add it to the list.
# [19:05] <tabatkin1> RESOLVED: Don't change the border-image shorthand.
# [19:05] <dbaron> Is there a draft of the 2010 snapshot somewhere?
# [19:05] <tabatkin1> RESOLVED: Proceed with publishing B&B to CR.
# [19:05] * sylvaing yay CR !
# [19:05] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-2010/
# [19:05] <szilles> +1 to publish B&B
# [19:05] <fantasai> sorry, forgot to send it to the list
# [19:05] <tabatkin1> plinss: Now, 2010 snapshot as FPWD. Everyone okay with that?
# [19:06] <tabatkin1> RESOLVED: Publish 2010 snapshot as FPWD.
# [19:06] <tabatkin1> plinss: Now, Writing Modes.
# [19:06] * glazou needs to go ; bye people
# [19:06] <Zakim> -glazou
# [19:06] <tabatkin1> howcome: In Opera I'm seeing an end-of-comment marker before the end of section 7.
# [19:06] * Quits: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19) (Quit: glazou)
# [19:06] <tabatkin1> howcome: So I'm not certain if something is supposed to be commented and is not, or what?
# [19:07] <Zakim> -tabatkin1
# [19:07] <dbaron> I see end-of-comment markers both right before section 7 and in the middle of 6.1
# [19:08] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-writing-modes/Overview.src.html
# [19:08] <jdaggett> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Nov/0151.html
# [19:09] <dbaron> howcome: 6.2.5 (?) is different lengths in Opera and Firefox
# [19:09] <dbaron> jdaggett: <describes above email>
# [19:09] <Zakim> -Tal
# [19:09] <dbaron> jdaggett: section 4.1 (especially second bullet point), section 6.1
# [19:10] <dbaron> jdaggett: it would be good to say: In CSS 2.1 we have sections 10.3 (widths) and 10.6 (heights), and those algorithms are inverted.
# [19:10] <dbaron> jdaggett: I see a lot of things that are weird editorially. I see references to old writing-mode values (section 2 ex. 1, several in 6.1.1)
# [19:10] <dbaron> jdaggett: Also, I think list of references is needed.
# [19:10] * Quits: tabatkin1 (tabatkins@216.239.45.4) (Ping timeout)
# [19:11] <Zakim> -bradk
# [19:11] <dbaron> jdaggett: Also, this and grid alignment spec behave very strangely with wide screen; illustrations fall behind examples. Was default style sheet changed?
# [19:11] * bradk has to go.
# [19:11] * Quits: bradk (bradk@99.7.175.117) (Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/ )
# [19:11] <dbaron> fantasai: I just made it float.
# [19:11] <dbaron> jdaggett: Seems to be causing a problem.
# [19:11] <dbaron> jdaggett: I'd like to see more text that points people in the right direction of what calculations you're talking about.
# [19:12] * Quits: alexmog (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
# [19:12] <dbaron> fantasai: I can list those as examples but I can't be exhaustive.
# [19:12] <dbaron> jdaggett: I'm not looking for exhaustive list in FPWD.
# [19:12] <dbaron> jdaggett: But I think a lot of people have been confused about whether we're doing logical properties are not, and I think the current text is confusing about answering that confusion.
# [19:12] <dbaron> jdaggett: I think referring to CSS 2.1 spec and saying which algorithms are switched, etc., would help.
# [19:13] <dbaron> fantasai: Would adding ... ?
# [19:13] <fantasai> "For example, the rules in 10.x are used to calculate the height instead of the width, and the rule sin 10.y are used to calculate the width instead of the height"
# [19:13] <dbaron> jdaggett: There are places where things don't say how it relates to 2.1; I don't think it needs to be more than one sentence. But I think there are cases where the used value and computed value can be confused.
# [19:14] <dbaron> fantasai: (reads)
# [19:14] <dbaron> fantasai: I can give examples; can't say these are the only calculations needed to consider.
# [19:15] <dbaron> jdaggett: I think the spec isn't really capturing the background material. It would help if the first section (introduction or section 2) gave more real documentation on what it is we're trying to solve.
# [19:16] <dbaron> jdaggett: Are we trying to solve vertical text, or also solve cases of mixtures of scripts in various writing modes (which makes problem more compicated).
# [19:16] * Quits: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.169) (Quit: Fire on main board error, client combusted)
# [19:16] <dbaron> fantasai: I could copy examples from UTN22 into the spec if necessary.
# [19:16] <dbaron> jdaggett: That would be great... to copy enough examples to show the complexity.
# [19:17] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
# [19:17] <Zakim> -johnjan
# [19:17] <Zakim> -jdaggett
# [19:17] <Zakim> -kojiishi
# [19:17] <Zakim> -plinss_
# [19:17] * Quits: szilles (chatzilla@24.6.120.172) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.12/20101026210630])
# [19:17] <Zakim> -Bert
# [19:18] * Quits: kojiishi (kojiishi@222.158.227.129) (Quit: Leaving...)
# [19:18] <Zakim> -SteveZ
# [19:18] <fantasai> Bert, your preprocessor is causing problems here: http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fdev.w3.org%2Fcsswg%2Fcss3-writing-modes%2FOverview.html&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=Inline&group=0
# [19:18] <fantasai> The source document validates.
# [19:18] <Zakim> -fantasai
# [19:18] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
# [19:18] <Zakim> Attendees were glazou, plinss_, Tal, +1.781.266.aaaa, jdaggett, +1.415.920.aabb, +1.650.275.aacc, bradk, alexmog, arronei, johnjan, +1.650.214.aadd, kojiishi, tabatkin1,
# [19:18] <Zakim> ... +1.781.266.aaee, Bert, ChrisL, smfr, dsinger, fantasai, cathy, SteveZ, dbaron, howcome, +1.617.324.aaff, Yves
# [19:18] <Bert> (I added a workaround and re-generated.)
# [19:19] <Bert> (Actually... not yet. There are also bib entries missing.)
# [19:19] * Quits: jdaggett (jdaggett@118.243.79.250) (Quit: jdaggett)
# [19:21] <Bert> What is "UTN22"?
# [19:21] <fantasai> http://unicode.org/notes/tn22/
# [19:26] * Joins: tabatkin1 (tabatkins@216.239.45.4)
# [19:26] <Bert> OK, seems it was generated correctly now.
# [19:27] <Bert> I'll put handling of [[biblioref]] inside comments on the wishlist...
# [19:28] * Quits: oyvind (oyvinds@213.236.208.22) (Quit: oyvind)
# [19:30] <fantasai> Bert: can't you just ignore them?
# [19:30] * fantasai thinks things inside comments should be ignored
# [19:31] <Bert> I don't remember how that code works, but I guess not. Otherwise it would have been done.
# [19:33] <Bert> It seems the program doesn't actually parse HTML, it just looks for "[[".
# [19:34] <fantasai> ah
# [19:34] <Bert> But it does have an option to not create *extra* comments.
# [19:35] <Bert> I'll enable that.
# [19:35] <fantasai> heh
# [19:35] <fantasai> ok
# [19:36] <Bert> That option exists, because by default the program can be run again on its own output, thanks to those extra comments.
# [19:36] <Bert> But the output in this case doesn't have to be processed again.
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# [20:06] <dbaron> fantasai, Am I allowed to fix a bug in a test I wrote that's in approved/ ?
# [20:07] <dbaron> (see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-css-testsuite/2010Nov/0064.html )
# [20:09] <dbaron> Well, I'll update it and I guess if somebody says more process needs to happen, they can do so...
# [20:13] <fantasai> dbaron: yes
# [20:13] <fantasai> dbaron: just make sure someone reviews the change
# [20:13] <dbaron> fantasai, well, I just fixed it
# [20:14] <dbaron> fantasai, I think you're probably the most appropriate reviewer given the subject matter...
# [20:14] <fantasai> dbaron: just let me know which test then :)
# [20:14] <dbaron> fantasai, the two listed in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-css-testsuite/2010Nov/0064.html
# [20:14] <fantasai> ok
# [20:55] <fantasai> dbaron: r+
# [20:56] <dbaron> fantasai, should I note that somewhere?
# [20:57] <fantasai> it's fine
# [20:57] <fantasai> dbaron: I mainly just want to make sure any substantive changes to the approved testcases get looked over by someone other than the person making the change
# [21:07] <fantasai> dbaron: I guess you could write a reply to your mailing list message saying that you fixed the tests, and include r+ there
# [21:07] <fantasai> dbaron: Having the note that the problem was addressed helps me figure out what still needs fixing
# [21:07] <fantasai> tabatkin1: are you ready to go live with that system next week?
# [21:07] <fantasai> tabatkin1: It would be nice to switch to a proper tracking system for RC4
# [21:09] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
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# [23:31] * RRSAgent excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
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# Session Close: Thu Nov 18 00:00:00 2010

The end :)