/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2010-11-24 / end

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  5. # [00:55] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Could you send me your script that sends Overview.src.html up to Bert's formatter again?
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  18. # [06:20] <kojiishi> fantasai: are you there?
  19. # [06:24] <fantasai> kojiishi: just got back
  20. # [06:25] <fantasai> kojiishi, jdaggett: sorry; didn't realize how late it was and got lost in jersey city coming back :(
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  36. # [10:33] <Bert> tabatkins, one example of such a script is http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-background/Makefile
  37. # [10:33] <Bert> (Read the embedded comment for how to provide it with a password.)
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  48. # [12:24] * Topic is 'CSS Working Group Discussion - Logged to http://log.csswg.org/irc.w3.org/css/'
  49. # [12:24] * Set by plinss on Fri Nov 12 07:38:54
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  51. # [12:30] <myakura> fantasai: the last paragraph points to background-clip but it looks it should point to its own. http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-background/#the-background-origin
  52. # [12:31] <myakura> fantasai: so does background-size.
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  66. # [17:17] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/11/24-CSS-irc
  67. # [17:17] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
  68. # [17:17] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 45 minutes
  69. # [17:17] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
  70. # [17:17] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
  71. # [17:19] <TabAtkins> Bert: Thanks!
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  77. # [17:59] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  78. # [17:59] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  79. # [17:59] <Zakim> Attendees were
  80. # [18:01] * Joins: trackbot (trackbot@128.30.52.169)
  81. # [18:01] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  82. # [18:01] <Zakim> +glazou
  83. # [18:02] <Zakim> + +1.253.307.aaaa
  84. # [18:02] <arron> zakim, 253 is me
  85. # [18:02] <Zakim> sorry, arron, I do not recognize a party named '253'
  86. # [18:02] <glazou> Zakim, aaaa is arron
  87. # [18:02] <Zakim> +arron; got it
  88. # [18:02] <arron> zakim, aaaa is me
  89. # [18:02] <Zakim> sorry, arron, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
  90. # [18:04] <Zakim> +TabAtkins
  91. # [18:04] <Zakim> +Bert
  92. # [18:04] <Zakim> +plinss_
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  94. # [18:04] <Zakim> +??P9
  95. # [18:05] <kojiishi> zakim, ??P9 is me
  96. # [18:05] <Zakim> +kojiishi; got it
  97. # [18:05] <Zakim> -kojiishi
  98. # [18:05] <Zakim> +bradk
  99. # [18:05] <Zakim> +ChrisL
  100. # [18:05] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
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  102. # [18:06] <Zakim> +fantasai
  103. # [18:06] <Zakim> +David_Baron
  104. # [18:06] <kojiishi> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
  105. # [18:06] <Zakim> +kojiishi; got it
  106. # [18:06] <fantasai> Zakim, mute me
  107. # [18:06] <Zakim> fantasai should now be muted
  108. # [18:07] <TabAtkins> ScribeNick: TabAtkins
  109. # [18:07] <Zakim> + +44.131.208.aabb
  110. # [18:07] <gsnedders> zakim, aabb is me
  111. # [18:07] <Zakim> +gsnedders; got it
  112. # [18:07] <gsnedders> zakim, mute me
  113. # [18:07] <Zakim> gsnedders should now be muted
  114. # [18:07] <fantasai> zakim, unmute me
  115. # [18:07] <Zakim> fantasai should no longer be muted
  116. # [18:07] <TabAtkins> glazou: Before testsuite discussion, anything else?
  117. # [18:08] <TabAtkins> ChrisL: Brief item.
  118. # [18:08] <TabAtkins> ChrisL: Liaison with epub, and whether the group is willing to do it.
  119. # [18:08] <TabAtkins> fantasai: We already resolved to do it at the FtF.
  120. # [18:08] <TabAtkins> fantasai: I'd like to publish FPWD of Writing Modes.
  121. # [18:09] <gsnedders> Just to note, I've been busy with university stuff over the past few days, and am not entirely up-to-date on CSS 2.1 testsuite stuff.
  122. # [18:09] * ChrisL but please can I have a minuted resolution that the liaison is Elika, not just a generic 'liaison' with no named person
  123. # [18:09] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
  124. # [18:09] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou (49%), Bert (23%), TabAtkins (64%), David_Baron (4%)
  125. # [18:09] <TabAtkins> fantasai: jdaggett said he was okay with it.
  126. # [18:09] <fantasai> zakim, mute me
  127. # [18:09] <Zakim> fantasai should now be muted
  128. # [18:10] <fantasai> yes
  129. # [18:10] <TabAtkins> RESOLVED: Elika is the liaison with epub.
  130. # [18:10] * ChrisL thanks
  131. # [18:10] <TabAtkins> RESOLVED: Publish FPWD of Writing MOdes.
  132. # [18:10] <ChrisL> rrsagent, here
  133. # [18:10] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2010/11/24-CSS-irc#T17-08-12
  134. # [18:10] <TabAtkins> glazou: We have 107 tests that aren't passed by two impls.
  135. # [18:11] <TabAtkins> glazou: And over 9k tests that *are* passed by at least two.
  136. # [18:11] <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/test/css2.1/results
  137. # [18:11] <glazou> http://test.csswg.org/harness/results?s=CSS21_%25HTML_RC3&t=0&f[]=1&f[]=4&f[]=8&f[]=16
  138. # [18:11] <fantasai> http://test.csswg.org/source/filename-list
  139. # [18:11] <TabAtkins> glazou: At the last call, vendors were asked to review these tests.
  140. # [18:11] <fantasai> links to the latest by filename
  141. # [18:11] <TabAtkins> dbaron: There's a lot of activity on the wiki and on the list.
  142. # [18:12] <TabAtkins> glazou: Tab, you sent an email about not having time to review yet?
  143. # [18:13] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: Yeah, I'll review after I run the next RC in Chrome.
  144. # [18:13] <TabAtkins> glazou: What about tests that have no comments at all?
  145. # [18:13] <TabAtkins> dbaron: In some cases I didn't look at them because I don't really know about them.
  146. # [18:13] <Bert> zakim, mute me
  147. # [18:13] <Zakim> Bert should now be muted
  148. # [18:13] * Bert has a vacuum cleaner in front of his office :-)
  149. # [18:13] <TabAtkins> glazou: When is the next RC going to be published?
  150. # [18:14] <fantasai> zakim, unmute me
  151. # [18:14] <Zakim> fantasai should no longer be muted
  152. # [18:14] <gsnedders> zakim, unmute me
  153. # [18:14] <Zakim> gsnedders should no longer be muted
  154. # [18:14] <TabAtkins> fantasai: I'm still working through the backlog of reported problems - I'm in mid October for feedback, and I think I have about two days of work left to fix all the errors.
  155. # [18:14] <TabAtkins> fantasai: So probably next week, but possibly I can make it happen this weekend.
  156. # [18:15] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: From our point of view, Oyvind was looking through the tests and was asking if we're delaying the next RC of the testsuite, what we'll doa bout the results deadline for the RC.
  157. # [18:16] * dbaron notes Thanksgiving is tomorrow
  158. # [18:16] <TabAtkins> glazou: I'm somewhat disappointed that we're not yet ready with all the reviews by now.
  159. # [18:16] <gsnedders> Nah, I was asking what we're doing about the expected date for IRs for the next RC
  160. # [18:17] <gsnedders> Given that the RC is later than the date mentioned in the resolutions from the last F2F
  161. # [18:17] <ChrisL> puzzled by links to tests
  162. # [18:17] <ChrisL> http://test.csswg.org/harness/testcase?s=CSS21_%HTML_RC3&c=at-charset-013
  163. # [18:17] <Zakim> +howcome
  164. # [18:17] * Joins: howcome (howcome@80.203.20.94)
  165. # [18:17] <ChrisL> <b>Fatal error</b>: Call to a member function get_test_suite() on a non-object in <b>/sites/csswg.org/test/htdocs/harness/testcase.php</b> on line <b>237</b><br />
  166. # [18:17] <TabAtkins> arron: Tab, can you run the tests that are on the wiki for now?
  167. # [18:18] <glazou> yes ChrisL just saw that
  168. # [18:18] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: Yeah, I can do that.
  169. # [18:18] <Bert> (A number of tests is also marked invalid on the wiki, that also reduces the issues list considerably, doesn't it?)
  170. # [18:18] <TabAtkins> dbaron: Note that I wrote in a few places that Beta8 passes but not Beta6, because there are a few places where we fixed bugs.
  171. # [18:18] <TabAtkins> ChrisL: If you follow the link in the agenda to the test, you get an error message.
  172. # [18:18] <plinss_> http://test.csswg.org/harness/results?s=CSS21_HTML_RC3&t=0&f[]=1&f[]=4&f[]=8&f[]=16
  173. # [18:20] <TabAtkins> plinss_: If you're just running a few tests for a new browser, please do the test in the harness.
  174. # [18:20] <ChrisL> bug in at-charset-013 - pass criteria are ambiguous
  175. # [18:20] <fantasai> ChrisL: please report any errors to public-css-testsuite / wiki error page
  176. # [18:20] * fantasai cannot track errors via IRC
  177. # [18:20] * fantasai has a hard enough time tracking them through email
  178. # [18:20] <ChrisL> ok, thought we might fix some on the call
  179. # [18:21] <TabAtkins> arron: Peter, did you hook up the logic to display reftests correctly in the harness?
  180. # [18:21] <TabAtkins> glazou: I suggested in the agenda email to review some tests in the conf call.
  181. # [18:21] <TabAtkins> glazou: In the list of tests with 0 passes, we have a few with "invalid?" markers. Looking at these could be useful.
  182. # [18:22] <glazou> http://test.csswg.org/suites/css2.1/20101027/html4/background-intrinsic-004.htm
  183. # [18:22] <TabAtkins> dbaron: Looks like Oyvind marked it as invalid.
  184. # [18:22] <gsnedders> oyvind: ping?
  185. # [18:23] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Given that the other tests pass, I'm guessing this will pass as soon as it's fixed.
  186. # [18:23] <oyvind> first of all, the version in the RC has been updated by fantasai
  187. # [18:24] <oyvind> the "invalid" word links to the mail I sent about the remaining issue - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-css-testsuite/2010Nov/0119.html
  188. # [18:24] <oyvind> I don't have all the browsers listed (XP, not win7, for one), but IIRC Chrome still failed
  189. # [18:24] <TabAtkins> ChrisL: I dropped in a link to a particular test I thought might be quick to do.
  190. # [18:25] <ChrisL> http://test.csswg.org/harness/testcase?s=CSS21_HTML_RC3&c=at-charset-013
  191. # [18:26] <TabAtkins> ChrisL: The text is two lines with identical text, and the pass condition says it passed if "Filler Text" is green. One line of "Filler Text" is. I think the pass condition should just be that both lines should be red.
  192. # [18:26] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Some of the printing-related tests might pass on printers, for example.
  193. # [18:26] <TabAtkins> s/printers/Prince/
  194. # [18:27] <TabAtkins> howcome: I think you may be right, especially for cases where we know the test is valid and just need a pass.
  195. # [18:27] <TabAtkins> glazou: Print-related tests should also pass in Print Preview.
  196. # [18:27] <TabAtkins> ChrisL: There's some page-break-* tests that I suspect Prince will be more likely to pass.
  197. # [18:28] <TabAtkins> glazou: When could we get a Prince report?
  198. # [18:28] <TabAtkins> howcome: Dunno.
  199. # [18:29] <TabAtkins> glazou: You don't need the whole suite - just the 100 or less that don't have two passes yet.
  200. # [18:29] <ChrisL> here is the list of 100 tests
  201. # [18:29] <ChrisL> http://test.csswg.org/harness/results?s=CSS21_%25HTML_RC3&t=0&f[]=1&f[]=4&f[]=8&f[]=16
  202. # [18:29] <glazou> howcome: http://wiki.csswg.org/test/css2.1/results
  203. # [18:30] <TabAtkins> glazou: What other tests can we fix now?
  204. # [18:30] <glazou> http://test.csswg.org/suites/css2.1/20101027/html4/first-page-selectors-003.htm
  205. # [18:31] <TabAtkins> glazou: This is mentioned by Oyvind as probably invalid.
  206. # [18:31] <gsnedders> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-css-testsuite/2010Nov/0121.html is oyvind's email about it
  207. # [18:32] <TabAtkins> fantasai: The test is correct - that's the intention of the spec.
  208. # [18:32] <TabAtkins> arron: But is the spec clear enough to say that?
  209. # [18:32] <TabAtkins> howcome: I don't see :first-page as applying...
  210. # [18:32] * Joins: miketaylr (miketaylr@24.42.95.108)
  211. # [18:32] <TabAtkins> fantasai: If you force a break before the first page, it just puts the first page on a particular side. So the left page would be the first page, it's just on a different page than "normal".
  212. # [18:33] <oyvind> (this text was introduced as part of issue 160 btw)
  213. # [18:33] <Bert> zakim, unmute me
  214. # [18:34] <Zakim> Bert should no longer be muted
  215. # [18:34] <Bert> (I agree with Opera's interpretation: not the first page.)
  216. # [18:34] <TabAtkins> ACTION howcome to check first-page-selectors-003 to make sure it's valid.
  217. # [18:34] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  218. # [18:34] <trackbot> Created ACTION-277 - Check first-page-selectors-003 to make sure it's valid. [on Håkon Wium Lie - due 2010-12-01].
  219. # [18:35] <TabAtkins> plinss_: Some tests are somewhat ambiguous if someone isn't familiar with CSS's use of the term "box", because there's no visible box drawn on the page. Suggest updating to say "paragraph" or similar.
  220. # [18:35] <fantasai> plinss_: if you notice more such pages, please send a list to public-css-testsuite
  221. # [18:36] <TabAtkins> glazou: What about allowed-page-breaks-002?
  222. # [18:36] <fantasai> Wrt page-breaking, CSS3 Page is rather explicit about forcing a :left :first page
  223. # [18:36] <fantasai> "However, to force a ':left' or ':right' first page, authors MAY insert a page break before the first generated box (e.g., in HTML, specify this for the BODY element)."
  224. # [18:36] <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-page/
  225. # [18:37] <TabAtkins> glazou: Should we defer to next week after the review?
  226. # [18:37] <oyvind> allowed-page-breaks-002 assumes 4em is between three and four lines, but other than that I couldn't see anything obviously wrong (there's a negative margin whith trips us up a bit)
  227. # [18:38] <TabAtkins> glazou: I am *insisting* on these reviews.
  228. # [18:38] <TabAtkins> glazou: Hopefully this should further drastically reduce the number of <2 pass tests, so we can focus our attention on the handful of truly invalid ones.
  229. # [18:38] <TabAtkins> arron: I think there's another easy one to check.
  230. # [18:38] <Bert> (Yes, oyvind, that's what I thought, too. It needs a 'line-height' property to be sure.)
  231. # [18:38] <oyvind> fantasai: "page break" still suggests to me that there will actually be a page before it (though empty)
  232. # [18:39] <TabAtkins> arron: overflow-applies-to-010
  233. # [18:39] <arron> http://test.csswg.org/suites/css2.1/20101027/html4/overflow-applies-to-010.htm
  234. # [18:39] <dbaron> Well, I was against that decision in the first place.
  235. # [18:39] <TabAtkins> arron: The spec currently matches this test, but no impl does it. I think the spec was changed here about a year ago.
  236. # [18:39] <TabAtkins> arron: So do we want to just reverse the spec change?
  237. # [18:40] <TabAtkins> dbaron: I wanted the spec to go the other way when we discussed it the last time.
  238. # [18:40] <TabAtkins> arron: And all impls would pass if we went back to what we had before.
  239. # [18:41] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Could we just make it undefined in CSS2.1?
  240. # [18:41] <TabAtkins> glazou: If we make it undefined we just remove the test.
  241. # [18:43] <TabAtkins> fantasai: I think we need a coherent model for outside/parent/whatever bullets before we can determine what this *should* do.
  242. # [18:43] <TabAtkins> RESOLVED: Change text surrounding overflow and bullets to make it explicitly undefined in CSS2.1.
  243. # [18:45] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: text-transform-bicameral-008 is invalid and easy to fix - the test is explicitly stating that the same capital letter should downcase to two different lowercase letters.
  244. # [18:45] <dbaron> -004 has the same problem
  245. # [18:46] <dbaron> (but it's in the 0-pass list)
  246. # [18:46] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: We shoudl just remove the couple of final-form letters that it's trying to test.
  247. # [18:46] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Question on the run-in-contains tests.
  248. # [18:46] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Nobody's said they're invalid, so what are we gonna do about them?
  249. # [18:47] <TabAtkins> dbaron: I've always been in favor of removing run-in from the spec, but...
  250. # [18:47] <gsnedders> text-transform-bicameral-004 apparently passes in IE9, FWIW
  251. # [18:47] <fantasai> Basically, if we're reviewing tests today, we should review tests that are not known invalid :)
  252. # [18:47] <gsnedders> oh, wait, 008
  253. # [18:47] <gsnedders> I can't read :)
  254. # [18:47] <fantasai> Because that doesn't depend on RC4
  255. # [18:48] <dbaron> gsnedders, we were discussing both
  256. # [18:48] <ChrisL> zakim, who is noisy?
  257. # [18:48] <Zakim> ChrisL, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Bert (4%), TabAtkins (5%), David_Baron (77%)
  258. # [18:48] <dbaron> Zakim, mute David_Baron
  259. # [18:48] <Zakim> David_Baron should now be muted
  260. # [18:48] <dbaron> It's not noise from my end; probably bad cell connection.
  261. # [18:48] <TabAtkins> glazou: Do you have a suggestion for what do about the tests, elika?
  262. # [18:49] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Nope.
  263. # [18:49] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Let's assume the run-in-contains tests are valid. There's still only one pass.
  264. # [18:49] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Does Prince support run-ins?
  265. # [18:50] <TabAtkins> howcome: ^^^
  266. # [18:50] <TabAtkins> howcome: I'm not sure, but I can check.
  267. # [18:50] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Prince does support run-ins.
  268. # [18:50] * gsnedders just opened his mouth to say that when fantasai did
  269. # [18:51] <ChrisL> yes it does http://www.princexml.com/doc/7.0/properties/
  270. # [18:51] <TabAtkins> fantasai: So the way forward here would be to run these tests on Prince.
  271. # [18:51] * Joins: anne (annevk@83.85.115.123)
  272. # [18:51] <TabAtkins> ChrisL: I've got the testsuite SVN pulled down locally, so I'll run them in Prince 7.1.
  273. # [18:52] <gsnedders> Make sure they're run with the file encoding as utf-8, if running locally
  274. # [18:52] <TabAtkins> fantasai: I think I updated word-spacing-characters-001, and I don't recall getting many passes on it.
  275. # [18:52] <fantasai> http://test.csswg.org/source/contributors/fantasai/submitted/css2.1/word-spacing-characters-001.xht
  276. # [18:52] <fantasai> FF passes
  277. # [18:54] <TabAtkins> arron: I think IE9 passes all but the final one.
  278. # [18:54] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: That one is pre, and also includes three kinds of whitespace - spaces, nbsp, and tabs.
  279. # [18:56] <TabAtkins> glazou: white-space-control-characters-001 is passed by FFb and Opera 11b.
  280. # [18:57] <dbaron> That's one of the ones I never managed to check.
  281. # [18:57] * glazou tests http://test.csswg.org/suites/css2.1/20101027/html4/before-after-table-parts-001.htm and collapses :-)
  282. # [18:57] <dbaron> glazou, it's a reftest
  283. # [18:58] <TabAtkins> fantasai: The margin-collapse-clear tests were due to a spec change recently, since the earlier behavior made no sense (clear could sometimes make an element move up).
  284. # [18:58] <dbaron> glazou, just load 001-ref in another tab and switch between them
  285. # [18:58] <gsnedders> white-space-control-characters-001 seems to have been broken in RC2, so maybe coming up in the list due to lack of reported results?
  286. # [18:58] <TabAtkins> fantasai: The tests are valid, they're just not passed by anyone yet.
  287. # [18:59] <TabAtkins> fantasai: At this point we either need to change the spec (which I don't think is a good idea) or we need impls to make a fix, so we can evaluate the web compat impact.
  288. # [18:59] <TabAtkins> glazou: How long do people think it will take to fix implementations?
  289. # [19:00] <TabAtkins> arron: I doubt IE9 will take this change, at least right now.
  290. # [19:00] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: We're unlikely to make it for Opera 11.
  291. # [19:01] <TabAtkins> glazou: What happens if we don't get two passes? This could potentially take months.
  292. # [19:01] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: We attempt to justify why the current spec is good, despite the lack of passes?
  293. # [19:01] <TabAtkins> glazou: The feature isn't at-risk, so we need to pass.
  294. # [19:02] <TabAtkins> fantasai: I think if we get at least one impl so we can evaluate web compat, we can make a case as to why we don't have two passes for this case.
  295. # [19:02] <TabAtkins> glazou: When you say "make a case", do you mean when we discuss IRs with the director?
  296. # [19:02] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Yes.
  297. # [19:03] <dbaron> http://test.csswg.org/source/contributors/fantasai/submitted/css2.1/word-spacing-characters-001.xht passes in Firefox trunk but not in 4.0b6; I don't know why
  298. # [19:03] <bradk> Move to errata after REC?
  299. # [19:03] <TabAtkins> glazou: We have exit criteria decided *long* ago, and if we start to special-case things it's no good.
  300. # [19:03] <TabAtkins> fantasai: I don't think we'll have to do this for *any* other feature, just this one.
  301. # [19:04] <dbaron> er, never mind, I think it's related to the default font size requirement
  302. # [19:04] <dbaron> It passes with Firefox's default default font sizes, but not the default font sizes required by the test suite.
  303. # [19:04] <TabAtkins> glazou: Next week, *have reviews ready please*.
  304. # [19:04] <fantasai> dbaron: ???
  305. # [19:04] <Zakim> -TabAtkins
  306. # [19:04] <bradk> I mean, change the spec to match implementations, and then have an errata later on to change it back?
  307. # [19:05] <Zakim> -arron
  308. # [19:05] <Zakim> -ChrisL
  309. # [19:05] <Zakim> -howcome
  310. # [19:05] <Zakim> -fantasai
  311. # [19:05] <Zakim> -glazou
  312. # [19:05] <Zakim> -David_Baron
  313. # [19:05] <Zakim> -plinss_
  314. # [19:05] <Zakim> -gsnedders
  315. # [19:05] * Quits: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19) (Quit: glazou)
  316. # [19:05] <Zakim> -bradk
  317. # [19:05] <fantasai> dbaron: THe test should be font-size independent
  318. # [19:05] <TabAtkins> bradk: That's such disgusting politics-maneuvering. >_<
  319. # [19:05] <Zakim> -kojiishi
  320. # [19:05] <Zakim> -Bert
  321. # [19:05] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  322. # [19:05] <Zakim> Attendees were glazou, +1.253.307.aaaa, arron, TabAtkins, Bert, plinss_, kojiishi, bradk, ChrisL, fantasai, David_Baron, +44.131.208.aabb, gsnedders, howcome
  323. # [19:05] <dbaron> fantasai, well, it's somehow profile-dependent
  324. # [19:05] <fantasai> @_@
  325. # [19:05] <dbaron> fantasai, it passes in a freshly created profile and fails in the profile I used for the test suite that has the preference tweaks
  326. # [19:05] <bradk> Yeah, I know, but it is only this one test...
  327. # [19:06] <TabAtkins> If it's only one test, I agree with elika that we should just get at least one impl and then try to justify it on its merits.
  328. # [19:06] <fantasai> I think it's more honest to just say we don't have the passes
  329. # [19:06] <bradk> It would get us a pass, if we are not willing to overlook implementations not being ready in time.
  330. # [19:06] <fantasai> I'm kindof annoyed Microsoft doesn't pass those tests :)
  331. # [19:06] <fantasai> They wrote them.
  332. # [19:07] <fantasai> And submitted them.
  333. # [19:07] <fantasai> And brought up the issue
  334. # [19:07] <TabAtkins> Heh.
  335. # [19:07] * Quits: kojiishi (kojiishi@222.158.227.129) (Quit: Leaving...)
  336. # [19:07] <fantasai> That resulted in the edits to make them valid
  337. # [19:08] <fantasai> Which I agree with!
  338. # [19:08] <arron> Actually we never submitted those tests as official tests Ian added them to his suite and they got added that way.
  339. # [19:08] <fantasai> Ian added them to his suite, yes,
  340. # [19:08] <arron> the tests were created as a discussion point on Margin collapsing
  341. # [19:08] <fantasai> but they were also added directly to the test suite
  342. # [19:08] <arron> I didn't add them
  343. # [19:08] <fantasai> no, you didn't
  344. # [19:08] <fantasai> this was before your time
  345. # [19:09] <arron> Actually I wrote the tests for Markus and Alex to discuss
  346. # [19:10] <ChrisL> arron, fantasia - question about running from local svn checkout
  347. # [19:10] <ChrisL> should i be in approved\css2.1\src
  348. # [19:10] <ChrisL> and is it correct that there is no harness?
  349. # [19:10] <fantasai> ChrisL: depends on which tests you want to run
  350. # [19:10] <fantasai> ChrisL: Probably you want to build the test suite first
  351. # [19:10] <ChrisL> i want to run these
  352. # [19:10] <ChrisL> http://test.csswg.org/harness/results?s=CSS21_%25HTML_RC3&t=0&f[]=1&f[]=4&f[]=8&f[]=16
  353. # [19:11] <ChrisL> the links are flat though while the svn is structured into directories per chapter
  354. # [19:11] <ChrisL> ok. and build can be doneon windows, or needs linux?
  355. # [19:11] <fantasai> I think it can be done on windows
  356. # [19:11] <fantasai> you need Perl and Python
  357. # [19:12] * fantasai needs to do a bit of cleanup here first for you
  358. # [19:13] <ChrisL> i'm not seeing a makefile. i have cygwin (so bash shell, and perl, and python)
  359. # [19:13] <fantasai> give me one sec....
  360. # [19:13] <fantasai> ok
  361. # [19:13] <fantasai> svn update
  362. # [19:13] <fantasai> Then
  363. # [19:14] <fantasai> run ./tools/pub-css21.pl from the top-level directory
  364. # [19:14] <fantasai> arron: So we discussed them, resolved to make the edits that made them valid, and accepted the tests into the test suite
  365. # [19:15] <oyvind> hm, doesn't white-space-control-characters-001 depend on there either being no font on the system with U+0098, or only fonts where that glyph is exactly 1em wide
  366. # [19:15] <fantasai> arron: You weren't officially submitting tests yourself, but we were still taking submissions at that time, and adding tests from an issue was an obvious thing to add
  367. # [19:15] <fantasai> oyvind: ???
  368. # [19:16] <fantasai> oyvind: U+0098 is START OF STRING
  369. # [19:16] <fantasai> oyvind: where is it occuring in the test?
  370. # [19:17] <oyvind> in between two spaces inside #div1, as far as I can see
  371. # [19:17] * Quits: bradk (bradk@99.7.175.117) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep)
  372. # [19:17] <ChrisL> ah, build fails with "import html5lib # Warning: This uses a patched version of html5lib"
  373. # [19:17] <oyvind> fantasai, assert is "White space processing model does not affect non white space control characters, in this case the 'Start of string' character."
  374. # [19:17] <fantasai> oh, I was looking at the wrong test
  375. # [19:18] <fantasai> ChrisL: The patch is in tools/CSSTestLib
  376. # [19:18] * gsnedders should probably go back to trying to merge the patches into html5lib
  377. # [19:18] <fantasai> ChrisL: I forget what version it's against...
  378. # [19:18] <fantasai> :/
  379. # [19:18] * fantasai should update that against trunk
  380. # [19:19] <fantasai> ChrisL: It's against changeset 1588:334d59049eb7
  381. # [19:19] <fantasai> ChrisL: How about I just zip up a copy and send it to you
  382. # [19:19] <arron> fantasai: I think the problem is we weren't actually submitting the tests at all.
  383. # [19:20] <ChrisL> fantasai yes that might be easier
  384. # [19:20] <fantasai> arron: I'm pretty sure either Markus or Alex said it was ok to add them to the test suite
  385. # [19:20] <fantasai> arron: I could be wrong
  386. # [19:20] <fantasai> arron: but I don't see why you wouldn't have wanted them to do so
  387. # [19:22] <fantasai> ChrisL: Sending now. Should appear in your mailbox in a few minutes
  388. # [19:23] <fantasai> anyway, I should go...
  389. # [19:23] <arron> fantasai: we don't want them submitted because they are incorrect. Or we think they are incorrect.
  390. # [19:23] * fantasai will be back sometime later
  391. # [19:23] <fantasai> arron: a) they were *already* submitted
  392. # [19:23] <fantasai> arron: b) the spec was updated with the *intention of making those tests valid*
  393. # [19:24] <gsnedders> Should reviews for changes to approved tests be sent to the list?
  394. # [19:24] <arron> a) they were not officially submitted by us they were only for talking points
  395. # [19:24] <ChrisL> fantasai, thanks
  396. # [19:24] <fantasai> gsnedders: yes
  397. # [19:24] <fantasai> arron: you're being too official
  398. # [19:24] <arron> b) teh spec was changed but it still does not clearly explain this case from what I read a couple of weeks ago.
  399. # [19:25] <fantasai> arron: "officially submitted" wasn't anything back then
  400. # [19:25] <arron> fantasai: I have to be on this
  401. # [19:26] <fantasai> arron: well, whether you think they were "officially submitted" or not, they're in the test suite
  402. # [19:27] <fantasai> arron: if you want to argue copyright violation, I'll argue they're covered under the Membership agreement which gives W3C right to use them
  403. # [19:28] <fantasai> arron: As for whether they're invalid, I'll have to write that up later
  404. # [19:28] * Quits: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.169) (Quit: Fire on main board error, client combusted)
  405. # [19:29] <arron> fantasai: I wanted to remove them. You then re-added them. When I removed them they were invalid per the spec.
  406. # [19:30] <arron> fantasai: you may have re-added them but the problem is the tests do not match any implementation and probably won't because of interoperability on the web.
  407. # [19:31] <fantasai> arron: I re-added them because I don't think they're invalid
  408. # [19:31] <fantasai> arron: you can't unilaterally remove tests because *you* think they're invalid
  409. # [19:31] <fantasai> arron: if dbaron reviewed them and said they were invalid, then you could remove them
  410. # [19:32] <arron> Sure I can if they are owned by MS
  411. # [19:32] <fantasai> No, you can't
  412. # [19:32] <fantasai> Because they're not owned by MS
  413. # [19:32] <fantasai> MS has joint ownership with W3C
  414. # [19:32] <fantasai> Also, once the tests are released under BSD, you may own them, but everyone else has license to use whether you like it or not
  415. # [19:32] <arron> And they were invalid when I removed them.
  416. # [19:33] <fantasai> Again, that's your evaluation
  417. # [19:33] <fantasai> but only your evaluation
  418. # [19:33] <fantasai> Nobody else agreed they were invalid
  419. # [19:33] <arron> The spec was defined that way. It may not be now but it was
  420. # [19:33] <fantasai> which means your removal was not reviewed
  421. # [19:34] <fantasai> which means you were not allowed to remove them
  422. # [19:34] <arron> So you are saying I can never remove cases without approval.
  423. # [19:34] <fantasai> Right
  424. # [19:35] <fantasai> Which means at least somebody else has to agree they should be removed
  425. # [19:35] <fantasai> and nobody else disagrees
  426. # [19:36] <arron> every implementation agrees with me
  427. # [19:36] <fantasai> (somebody else has to be a valid reviewer, i.e. not someone else at Microsoft but pretty much anybody else)
  428. # [19:36] <fantasai> implementation is a something, not a somebody
  429. # [19:36] <arron> true but this just means the spec is wrong
  430. # [19:37] <fantasai> Bugwards compat is not a design principle here.
  431. # [19:37] <fantasai> Web compat is.
  432. # [19:37] <arron> it will have to be if we break major sites and companies.
  433. # [19:37] <fantasai> if it breaks major sites and companies, it's web compat issue
  434. # [19:37] <fantasai> but nobody's argued that
  435. # [19:38] <arron> Yes but a company can't be expected to spend a million dollars changin all of their infrastructure just to match a CSS spec change
  436. # [19:38] <fantasai> Arron, I am not arguing this with you.
  437. # [19:38] <TabAtkins> I don't think you're listening to fantasai, arron.
  438. # [19:40] <arron> tabatkins, I am listening, We cannot remove cases without approval. We all agreed on the spec changes.
  439. # [19:40] <TabAtkins> I'm talkinga bout immediately above, where elika's saying that we *do* make changes for web compat, and you're saying "no, we have to make changes for web compat".
  440. # [19:40] <arron> I just don't think we correctly cover this case yet in the updates. And if we did then we will break sites which is something we just figuring out from current evaluation
  441. # [19:42] <arron> Well moving the element up is correct fro some sites though currently incorrect per the spec. The spec says you don't move the element up but this breaks sites too.
  442. # [19:43] <arron> and all implementations match. So it seems like the least resistance is to leave the implementations and change the tests and spec to match.
  443. # [19:44] <arron> This way we affect only a small number of sites that actually follow the current public spec and not the editors draft with the latest edits.
  444. # [19:45] <arron> that should have been editors draft and then current spec. I had those backwards
  445. # [19:47] <dbaron> fantasai, do you have a pointer to the spec change that the test in question is testing?
  446. # [19:47] <dbaron> fantasai, if you do, I could at least file a bug about it
  447. # [19:47] <TabAtkins> I'm not getting into an argument about margins anymore. I was just trying to interject and stop what I saw was some crosstalk.
  448. # [19:49] * Quits: arron (Arron@24.17.123.244) (Quit: arron)
  449. # [19:49] <dbaron> (those were 2 of the 3 tests that I never figured out)
  450. # [19:54] * Joins: danielweck (danielweck@86.172.35.49)
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  468. # Session Close: Thu Nov 25 00:00:00 2010

The end :)