/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2010-11-30 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Nov 30 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  50. # [20:02] <hyatt> fantasai: ping
  51. # [20:02] <fantasai> plinss_: Bert's reporting a server problem on csswg.org http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-css-testsuite/2010Nov/0142.html
  52. # [20:02] <fantasai> hyatt: pong
  53. # [20:02] <hyatt> fantasai: should this work...
  54. # [20:02] <hyatt> <span style="text-combine: horizontal 2">
  55. # [20:02] <hyatt> <span style="color:red">2</span><span style="color:blue">0</span>
  56. # [20:02] <hyatt> </span>
  57. # [20:02] <fantasai> no
  58. # [20:02] <hyatt> so basically only raw text is allowed inside the span or you discard the text-combine?
  59. # [20:02] <fantasai> yes
  60. # [20:02] <fantasai> otherwise it gets complicated
  61. # [20:02] <hyatt> ok
  62. # [20:02] <fantasai> I'm happy to reconsider if you think otherwise :)
  63. # [20:02] <hyatt> no i don't think otherwise
  64. # [20:03] <fantasai> hehe
  65. # [20:03] <hyatt> just working on implementing it
  66. # [20:03] <hyatt> and the approach can be simpler if it's one text
  67. # [20:03] <fantasai> that's what I figured
  68. # [20:03] <fantasai> if someone wants to do something fancy, he can fake it with display: inline-block; writing-mode: horizontal-tb
  69. # [20:04] <hyatt> i'm trying to figure out if i should do that
  70. # [20:04] <hyatt> turn the span into an inline block with horizontal-tb
  71. # [20:04] <hyatt> or if i should just hack the text painting
  72. # [20:05] <hyatt> and keep the span with the same writing mode etc
  73. # [20:05] <fantasai> jdaggett said the behavior is different than with display: inline-block; writing-mode: horizontal-tbl;
  74. # [20:06] <hyatt> well there's choosing a compressed font and fitting it to 1em etc
  75. # [20:06] <fantasai> I'm not sure what all the issues are -- probably I should get a list of considerations
  76. # [20:06] <fantasai> there's that, yes
  77. # [20:06] <hyatt> i'm mainly thinking of how to get it to be upright
  78. # [20:06] <hyatt> do i hack the writing mode on the span or just hack the painting of the text
  79. # [20:06] <fantasai> the painting of the text
  80. # [20:06] <fantasai> it's going to have to behave as one grapheme cluster
  81. # [20:07] <fantasai> for various purposes
  82. # [20:07] <fantasai> letter-spacing
  83. # [20:07] <fantasai> text-emphasis
  84. # [20:07] <fantasai> etc
  85. # [20:07] <fantasai> underlining
  86. # [20:07] <hyatt> yeah
  87. # [20:19] <hyatt> fantasai: btw i implemented some really smart baseline adjustment... it is working really really well
  88. # [20:20] <hyatt> fantasai: the heuristic i used was that if any used font on a line contains vertical forms
  89. # [20:20] <hyatt> then it taints the whole line
  90. # [20:20] <hyatt> and all the non-vertical fonts move to using centered baselines
  91. # [20:20] <hyatt> fantasai: pretty simple to implement and works really well
  92. # [20:21] <hyatt> fantasai: this way the line just does the right thing based off what's on it without having to resort to language detection
  93. # [20:21] <hyatt> interesting mixes end up working like you'd expect, e.g., mongolian with some mixed-in ideograph content
  94. # [20:21] <hyatt> normal english text with no ideographs will baseline-align like it does in horizontal too
  95. # [20:21] <hyatt> etc.
  96. # [20:22] <fantasai> Mongolian with ideographic is pretty common :)
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  98. # [20:23] <fantasai> hyatt: Can you email your ideas to www-style?
  99. # [20:23] <hyatt> fantasai: sure
  100. # [20:23] <fantasai> hyatt: It's easier for me to track that way
  101. # [20:23] <hyatt> fantasai: i basically did that already... i outlined 3 approaches
  102. # [20:23] <hyatt> fantasai: so basically i implemented one of those 3
  103. # [20:23] <hyatt> but i can elaborate if it's helpful
  104. # [20:23] <hyatt> i really don't want to see language-based decisions
  105. # [20:24] <hyatt> since it's all about ideographs
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  108. # [20:24] <hyatt> which are easily detectable
  109. # [20:24] <fantasai> hyatt: no, definitely not language-based
  110. # [20:24] * fantasai pulls up your email
  111. # [20:25] <hyatt> basically think of a line as having a "baseline type", e.g., alphabetic or ideographic
  112. # [20:25] <hyatt> if any ideographs occur on the line, the "baseline type" of the line becomes ideographic
  113. # [20:25] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Nov/0081.html
  114. # [20:25] <fantasai> option 3?
  115. # [20:25] <hyatt> yeah
  116. # [20:25] <hyatt> with "or alternatively just synthesize a baseline that is halfway through the text while still keeping the vertical-align value the same"
  117. # [20:26] <hyatt> i did the synthesis
  118. # [20:26] <hyatt> so that vertical-align:baseline does the right thing
  119. # [20:26] <fantasai> I don't like making it font-dependent
  120. # [20:26] <fantasai> means if I use Arial Unicode MS vs. Arial, I get different results
  121. # [20:26] <hyatt> it can be either font-dependent or ideograph-dependent
  122. # [20:26] <hyatt> i can't speak to other operating systems
  123. # [20:26] <hyatt> but every single font on the mac is correct
  124. # [20:27] <hyatt> there is no such thing as rendering japanese without having the font have vertical tables
  125. # [20:27] <fantasai> right, but rendering English?
  126. # [20:28] <fantasai> If you use a font that supports vertical rendering vs. one that doesn't, you'd get different results
  127. # [20:28] <fantasai> for no apparent reason
  128. # [20:28] <fantasai> hyatt: btw, wrt text-combine, there have been some requests for a sort of auto-text-combine feature
  129. # [20:28] <fantasai> hyatt: in which case, you wouldn't be manipulating an actual element
  130. # [20:29] <hyatt> well, the fonts that support vertical rendering on the mac at least are just the ideographic ones
  131. # [20:29] <hyatt> note i'm talking about used fonts not specified fonts
  132. # [20:29] <hyatt> if you say <span style="font-family:Times">... japanese ideographs here... </span>
  133. # [20:29] <hyatt> those are going to render in Hiragino
  134. # [20:29] <hyatt> etc
  135. # [20:30] <fantasai> If you say <span style="font-family: Arial">...English text here...</span>
  136. # [20:30] <fantasai> those will render in a font without vertical tables
  137. # [20:30] <hyatt> exactly
  138. # [20:30] <hyatt> and so will do the right thing and not center baseline
  139. # [20:30] <fantasai> If you say <span style="font-family: Arial Unicode MS">... English text here...</span> ?
  140. # [20:30] <hyatt> the idea is you get smart baseline behavior based off what fonts you use
  141. # [20:31] <hyatt> fantasai: but making it ideograph based would probably be even better than font based
  142. # [20:32] <hyatt> i did font based since for all practical intents and purposes it works great, but the whole "universal font that does both english and japanese" is not what japanese authors typically want to use
  143. # [20:32] <hyatt> on os x at least
  144. # [20:33] <hyatt> ideograph-based would probably be better though
  145. # [20:34] <hyatt> but yeah i agree if you only use english text and you use a font with vertical tables that also happens to do english
  146. # [20:34] <fantasai> There are some very nice English+Japanese fonts out there.
  147. # [20:34] <hyatt> that it should not center baseline align
  148. # [20:34] <fantasai> but anyway, this is something I need to work on
  149. # [20:34] <hyatt> fantasai: yeah, there are also degenerate japanese fonts
  150. # [20:34] <hyatt> fantasai: although none installed by default on os x
  151. # [20:34] <hyatt> but third party ones like Makiba
  152. # [20:34] <hyatt> don't have vertical tables
  153. # [20:35] <hyatt> i synthesized vertical rendering for broken fonts like that
  154. # [20:35] <hyatt> (the punctuation looks wrong obviously)
  155. # [20:35] <hyatt> but the ideographs are at least upright
  156. # [20:35] <hyatt> but with a font-based choice, i would not baseline align
  157. # [20:35] <hyatt> using the center
  158. # [20:35] <hyatt> like i should
  159. # [20:36] <hyatt> so i guess ideograph usage would be a better heuristic
  160. # [20:36] <hyatt> browsers already have to have an isCJKIdeograph method for a character anyway
  161. # [20:36] <hyatt> in order to do text-orientation
  162. # [20:36] <hyatt> this is something you already have to know heh
  163. # [20:37] <hyatt> fantasai: so i guess i'd suggest ideograph-based rather than font-based.
  164. # [20:37] <hyatt> but the concept of a "baseline type" per line seems good... just pick it based off whether ideographs got used on the line.
  165. # [20:43] <hyatt> fantasai: anyway, things are looking really nice now... only major subsystems left to convert are scrolling/overflow and multicol/pagination
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  168. # [22:33] <plinss> fantasai: fixed. If you see any other issues, please let me know.
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The end :)