/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2010-12-15 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Dec 15 00:00:01 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #css
  3. # [00:24] <fantasai> plinss_: Can you enable redirects in test.csswg.org/suites?
  4. # [00:24] * fantasai hopes that other things like charset and lang tweaking is also enabled, since those are required for tests
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  36. # [17:45] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.169)
  37. # [17:45] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/12/15-CSS-irc
  38. # [17:45] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
  39. # [17:45] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 19 minutes
  40. # [17:45] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
  41. # [17:45] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
  42. # [17:54] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@98.234.51.190)
  43. # [17:55] * Joins: dsinger_ (dsinger@66.109.106.171)
  44. # [17:56] * dsinger_ is now known as Fred_Furlong
  45. # [17:56] <Fred_Furlong> zakim, who is here?
  46. # [17:56] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has not yet started, Fred_Furlong
  47. # [17:56] <Zakim> On IRC I see Fred_Furlong, dbaron, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, bradk, sylvaing, nimbupani, lhnz, kennyluck, dsinger, arronei, karl, plinss_, shepazu, TabAtkins, CSSWG_LogBot, krijnh,
  48. # [17:56] <Zakim> ... plinss, jgraham, fantasai, gsnedders, trackbot, Bert, Hixie
  49. # [17:57] * Joins: kojiishi (kojiishi@222.158.227.129)
  50. # [17:57] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  51. # [17:57] <Zakim> +dsinger
  52. # [17:58] * Joins: danielweck (dweck2@86.155.167.138)
  53. # [17:58] <Fred_Furlong> Zakim, dsinger is Fred_Furlong
  54. # [17:58] <Zakim> +Fred_Furlong; got it
  55. # [17:58] <danielweck> Zakim, danielweck is Daniel WEc
  56. # [17:58] <Zakim> I don't understand 'danielweck is Daniel WEc', danielweck
  57. # [17:59] * Fred_Furlong zakim, who is on the phone?
  58. # [17:59] * Zakim sees on the phone: Fred_Furlong
  59. # [17:59] <Zakim> + +33.9.50.89.aaaa
  60. # [17:59] <glazou> Zakim, aaaa is me
  61. # [17:59] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
  62. # [17:59] * Fred_Furlong good measure to you...
  63. # [18:00] * Quits: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19) (Connection reset by peer)
  64. # [18:00] * Joins: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19)
  65. # [18:00] * Joins: oyvind (oyvinds@213.236.208.22)
  66. # [18:00] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  67. # [18:01] <arronei> zakim, microsoft has me
  68. # [18:01] <Zakim> +arronei; got it
  69. # [18:01] <Zakim> + +1.415.920.aabb
  70. # [18:01] <Zakim> + +1.858.216.aacc
  71. # [18:01] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
  72. # [18:01] <plinss_> zakim, aacc is me
  73. # [18:01] <Zakim> +plinss_; got it
  74. # [18:02] <Zakim> -glazou
  75. # [18:02] <plinss_> zakim, aabb is fantasai
  76. # [18:02] <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
  77. # [18:02] <Fred_Furlong> Zakim, mute me
  78. # [18:02] <Zakim> Fred_Furlong should now be muted
  79. # [18:03] <Zakim> + +200000aadd
  80. # [18:03] <Zakim> +glazou
  81. # [18:03] * Joins: smfr (smfr@17.203.14.12)
  82. # [18:03] <glazou> the european bridge is under severe influence
  83. # [18:03] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.aa]
  84. # [18:04] <Zakim> - +200000aadd
  85. # [18:04] * Joins: johnjan (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  86. # [18:04] <Zakim> +David_Baron
  87. # [18:04] <johnjan> Zakim, Microsoft is johnjan
  88. # [18:04] * Fred_Furlong the bridge uses CSS_capacity not actual capacity?
  89. # [18:04] <Zakim> +johnjan; got it
  90. # [18:04] * Joins: cesar (acebal@85.152.178.159)
  91. # [18:04] <Zakim> +??P21
  92. # [18:04] <Zakim> + +1.408.636.aaee
  93. # [18:05] <smfr> Zakim, aaee is me
  94. # [18:05] <Zakim> +smfr; got it
  95. # [18:05] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  96. # [18:05] <Fred_Furlong> zakim, who is here?
  97. # [18:05] <Zakim> On the phone I see Fred_Furlong (muted), johnjan, fantasai, plinss_, [Microsoft.a], glazou, [Microsoft.aa], David_Baron, ??P21, smfr, [IPcaller]
  98. # [18:05] <Zakim> johnjan has arronei
  99. # [18:05] <Zakim> On IRC I see cesar, johnjan, smfr, oyvind, glazou, danielweck, kojiishi, Fred_Furlong, dbaron, RRSAgent, Zakim, bradk, sylvaing, nimbupani, lhnz, kennyluck, dsinger, arronei, karl,
  100. # [18:05] <Zakim> ... plinss_, shepazu, TabAtkins, CSSWG_LogBot, krijnh, plinss, jgraham, fantasai, gsnedders, trackbot, Bert, Hixie
  101. # [18:05] <kojiishi> zakim, ipcaller is me
  102. # [18:05] <Zakim> +kojiishi; got it
  103. # [18:06] * Joins: szilles (chatzilla@24.6.120.172)
  104. # [18:06] * Fred_Furlong anyone got the measure of ?p21?
  105. # [18:06] <danielweck> Zakim, ??P21 is danielweck
  106. # [18:06] <Zakim> +danielweck; got it
  107. # [18:06] <szilles> Can we add CSS-Beijing-2007 to the agenda
  108. # [18:06] <danielweck> zakim, who is here?
  109. # [18:06] <Zakim> On the phone I see Fred_Furlong (muted), johnjan, fantasai, plinss_, [Microsoft.a], glazou, [Microsoft.aa], David_Baron, danielweck, smfr, kojiishi
  110. # [18:06] <Zakim> johnjan has arronei
  111. # [18:06] <Zakim> On IRC I see szilles, cesar, johnjan, smfr, oyvind, glazou, danielweck, kojiishi, Fred_Furlong, dbaron, RRSAgent, Zakim, bradk, sylvaing, nimbupani, lhnz, kennyluck, dsinger,
  112. # [18:06] <Zakim> ... arronei, karl, plinss_, shepazu, TabAtkins, CSSWG_LogBot, krijnh, plinss, jgraham, fantasai, gsnedders, trackbot, Bert, Hixie
  113. # [18:06] <Fred_Furlong> Zakim, Fred_Furlong is dsinger
  114. # [18:06] <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
  115. # [18:07] * Fred_Furlong is now known as dsinger_
  116. # [18:08] <Zakim> + +47.23.69.aaff
  117. # [18:08] <Zakim> + +1.650.275.aagg
  118. # [18:08] <bradk> Zakim, aagg is me
  119. # [18:08] <Zakim> +bradk; got it
  120. # [18:08] <plinss_> zakim, aaff is howcome
  121. # [18:08] <Zakim> +howcome; got it
  122. # [18:09] <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
  123. # [18:09] <Zakim> + +34.60.940.aahh
  124. # [18:09] <fantasai> Peter: Any other agenda items?
  125. # [18:09] <fantasai> Arron: I have one about tracking Bert's edits
  126. # [18:10] <cesar> Zakim, aahh is me.
  127. # [18:10] <Zakim> +cesar; got it
  128. # [18:10] <fantasai> Sylvain: PFWG?
  129. # [18:10] <fantasai> Topic: PFWG comment on css3-background
  130. # [18:10] <fantasai> glazou: Did my action item to send official response to PFWG.
  131. # [18:11] <fantasai> glazou: We should hear back from them
  132. # [18:11] <Zakim> +Bert
  133. # [18:12] <Zakim> +SteveZ
  134. # [18:12] <fantasai> glazou: A year ago we discussed whethers editors should bring everything back to the WG concall
  135. # [18:12] <fantasai> glazou: or can the editors handle some things themselves
  136. # [18:12] <fantasai> glazou: Apparently this is an issue for some other working groups.
  137. # [18:13] <fantasai> glazou: When a comment comes official from a WG, it should go back to the conference call.
  138. # [18:13] <fantasai> glazou: Otherwise we have no means to say the answer of a given member is the position of the WG.
  139. # [18:13] * Quits: arronei (arronei@131.107.0.106) (Ping timeout)
  140. # [18:13] <fantasai> glazou: It's a little change from what we decided awhile ago, but it seems necessary.
  141. # [18:14] <szilles> Please add css-beijing-2007 to the agenda
  142. # [18:14] <fantasai> Bert: I don't think it means the answer has to come from the chair, but it has to be clear that it comes from the WG.
  143. # [18:14] * Joins: howcome (howcome@213.236.208.22)
  144. # [18:15] <fantasai> Steve: Would it suffice ...
  145. # [18:15] <fantasai> glazou: There's a thread, and lots of responses.
  146. # [18:15] * Joins: dsinger__ (dsinger@166.205.136.204)
  147. # [18:15] <fantasai> glazou: Somehow have to designate that one of them is the official position of the WG.
  148. # [18:15] <dsinger__> Zakim, unmute dsinger
  149. # [18:15] <Zakim> dsinger should no longer be muted
  150. # [18:15] <fantasai> Steve: Sometimes we have a conclusion, but don't have exact wording.
  151. # [18:16] <fantasai> Steve: Sometimes it's useful to designate an existing response as official.
  152. # [18:16] * Quits: dsinger__ (dsinger@166.205.136.204) (Quit: Rooms • iPhone IRC Client • http://www.roomsapp.mobi)
  153. # [18:16] <fantasai> glazou: We'll have to decide on a case-by-case basis.
  154. # [18:18] * Quits: dsinger_ (dsinger@66.109.106.171) (Ping timeout)
  155. # [18:19] <plinss_> zakim, who is noisy?
  156. # [18:19] <Zakim> +[Apple]
  157. # [18:19] <Zakim> plinss_, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: SteveZ (8%), dsinger (29%), glazou (69%)
  158. # [18:19] <Zakim> -dsinger
  159. # [18:19] * Joins: arronei (arronei@131.107.0.91)
  160. # [18:19] * dsinger that was weird, sorry, think it was me somehow
  161. # [18:20] <fantasai> fantasai: I think if we're dealing with PFWG, we have to have every single email response be an official WG response, whether it's asking a question or suggesting an edit or what. But with i18n or SVG, we might not to be quite as formal.
  162. # [18:20] * glazou dsinger owes us a beer
  163. # [18:20] * dsinger d'accord
  164. # [18:20] <fantasai> glazou: We need to have a WG position on each cross-WG issue, in case another WG has the same comment.
  165. # [18:20] <fantasai> Topic: CSS Beijing / Snapshot 2007
  166. # [18:20] <fantasai> Peter: Question is whether should be REC track or WG Note
  167. # [18:21] <fantasai> Steve: It's important to be REC track, because this is how we have defined rolling out CSS as a series of modules.
  168. # [18:21] <fantasai> Steve: We need to establish when we're establishing a new conformance level
  169. # [18:22] <fantasai> Steve: The doc does define conformance criteria.
  170. # [18:22] <fantasai> Steve: It doesn't work as a note, because that isn't something you can conform to.
  171. # [18:22] <fantasai> Steve: There are certainly other groups, e.g. SVG and.. Timed Text's group.. that develop profiles of their specifications as conformance levels.
  172. # [18:22] <fantasai> Steve: Bert, you were on the phone call. Why did Ralph not think it was a REC-track document?
  173. # [18:23] <fantasai> Bert: It doesn't have any conformance requirements, and it's an informative document.
  174. # [18:24] <fantasai> fantasai: It's not a profile, so much as defining all of CSS.
  175. # [18:24] <fantasai> as of a particular point in time.
  176. # [18:24] <fantasai> ...
  177. # [18:24] <fantasai> Steve: What defines conformance to CSS?
  178. # [18:24] <fantasai> Peter: The test suite for that spec
  179. # [18:25] <fantasai> fantasai: No, that doesn't define conformance, it helps measure it.
  180. # [18:26] <fantasai> glazou: Does anyone care about this set of specs as a conformance target?
  181. # [18:26] <fantasai> glazou: Would anyone say "We implement Snapshot 2007"?
  182. # [18:27] <fantasai> Sylvain: I wouldn't
  183. # [18:28] <fantasai> ...
  184. # [18:28] <fantasai> Peter: The document reads like a Note.
  185. # [18:28] <dsinger> I guess I can see some point to being able to say "We implement CSS3 2010" (and have 2011 include more modules)...
  186. # [18:28] <fantasai> Steve: My question is, should there be a REC-track document, and how should that be written.
  187. # [18:29] <fantasai> Steve: Some people are making tools for this.
  188. # [18:29] <fantasai> Steve: Such people want to know what is going to be the next level for browsers.
  189. # [18:29] <fantasai> Steve: What is the next 2.1
  190. # [18:29] <fantasai> Steve: Tool vendors need to be able to expect what comes next.
  191. # [18:30] <fantasai> Steve: Notes are not as authoritive
  192. # [18:31] <fantasai> fantasai: There are a couple things that are normative and should be captured somewhere.
  193. # [18:31] <fantasai> fantasai: The first thing, it defines in what order the specs modify each other
  194. # [18:31] <fantasai> fantasai: Since that was an issue someone raised.
  195. # [18:31] <fantasai> fantasai: the ordering in section 3 is normative
  196. # [18:31] <fantasai> fantasai: Second, it defines what to do with a partial implementation
  197. # [18:32] <fantasai> fantasai: how to ignore values and things like that
  198. # [18:33] <fantasai> fantasai: The the third thing is, it gives recommendations for prefixing -- when your'e supposed to prefix, when you're not supposed to prefix.
  199. # [18:33] <fantasai> fantasai: Those are the three things that are normative in this spec, and are not captured elsewhere.
  200. # [18:34] <fantasai> fantasai: We can split the spec into a normative spec and an informative note
  201. # [18:35] <fantasai> fantasai: But I don't think we should drop these on the floor because it reads as a note.
  202. # [18:35] <fantasai> Sylvain: Who uses this?
  203. # [18:36] <fantasai> fantasai: Validator people use it to guide their implementation
  204. # [18:36] <fantasai> fantasai: Anyone trying to figure out what the state of all these CSS3 modules is would find this useful.
  205. # [18:36] <fantasai> fantasai: It would replace the CSS3 Roadmap, which presents a different view of modularization.
  206. # [18:37] <fantasai> glazou: Does anyone in our group use this document?
  207. # [18:37] <fantasai> Steve: We are not the target audience. It's the people outside our group.
  208. # [18:37] <fantasai> dbaron: We all know what it says.
  209. # [18:38] <fantasai> fantasai: This is the replacement for CSS2.1
  210. # [18:38] <bradk> http://www.google.com/search?q=linkto:%20http://www.w3.org/TR/css-beijing/&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8#sclient=psy&hl=en&safe=off&source=hp&q=link%3A+http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FTR%2Fcss-beijing%2F&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=1bde53b2ade8e603
  211. # [18:38] <fantasai> dsinger: A lot of people talk about CSS3
  212. # [18:38] <fantasai> dsinger: This document would define CSS3
  213. # [18:40] <dsinger> would it not be most helpful to publish snapshots that include only modules that are 'done'?
  214. # [18:40] <fantasai> Sylvain: Nobody cares about 2007 Snapshot
  215. # [18:40] <fantasai> Steve: Do you see value in the 2010 Snapshot?
  216. # [18:40] <fantasai> Sylvain: I don't see the value of it.
  217. # [18:40] <fantasai> Steve: It's the replacement of 2.1 for what the next "version" of CSS is.
  218. # [18:41] <fantasai> Steve: It's attempting to define a set of things that are intended as where the CSS group sees the next collection of things coming together.
  219. # [18:41] <bradk> who is linking to the snapshop: http://www.google.com/search?q=linkto:%20http://www.w3.org/TR/css-beijing/
  220. # [18:41] <dsinger> s/snapshop/snapshot/
  221. # [18:42] <fantasai> ...
  222. # [18:42] <fantasai> fantasai: The state of our modules is a mess. Nobody knows what is stable from its status.
  223. # [18:42] <fantasai> Sylvain: Then that's the problem we should solve
  224. # [18:42] * fantasai could sombeody take over minutes so I can join PFWG call?
  225. # [18:43] <fantasai> Steve: Changing the status tracking method is not giving us a target
  226. # [18:43] <dbaron> ScribeNick: dbaron
  227. # [18:43] <fantasai> ...
  228. # [18:43] <dbaron> sylvaing: Just make it a note and move on with the 2010 snapshot.
  229. # [18:43] * fantasai thanks
  230. # [18:43] <Zakim> -fantasai
  231. # [18:43] <dbaron> SteveZ: OK with me. I agree with the comment that says we shouldn't use that name, but...
  232. # [18:44] <dsinger> defining snapshots that include stable modules that are implemented ('widely') to give people a meaning behind 'CSS3 2010' makes sense
  233. # [18:44] <dbaron> sylvain: I don't see why the WG should be arguing about taking a snapshot from 2007 to CR.
  234. # [18:44] <dbaron> peterl: There is also pushback that this is a 2007 document that should be immediately replaced by a 2010 document.
  235. # [18:44] <dsinger> defining snapshots that include modules that might be done in the future or modules that, though done, are not (yet) 'mainstream' makes much less sense
  236. # [18:44] <dbaron> peterl: As a note, it can just be published on its own and we don't have to wait 3 years.
  237. # [18:45] <dbaron> peterl: There's also a mistaken impression of css3, which is a meaningless term. We should be defining what is CSS today. This can be a note.
  238. # [18:45] <glazou> +1
  239. # [18:45] <dbaron> peterl: I think the normative parts of this document can be folded into a different rec-track document.
  240. # [18:45] <dbaron> SteveZ: which rec-track document?
  241. # [18:45] <dbaron> peterl: CSS 2.1 or a CSS core module
  242. # [18:45] <dbaron> SteveZ: That's what, to me, the snapshots were to do.
  243. # [18:46] <dbaron> peterl: I'm not talking about putting the list of modules in 2.1; that should just be a note.
  244. # [18:46] <dbaron> SteveZ: There are conformance requirements in there; the order of that list is important.
  245. # [18:46] <dbaron> glazou: Steve, the conformance requirements for css3 are going to change over time?
  246. # [18:46] <dsinger> there is no 'css3
  247. # [18:46] <dsinger> '
  248. # [18:46] <dsinger> there is 'css3 2010', 'css3 2012'
  249. # [18:46] <dbaron> dbaron: We're not doing a single CSS3.
  250. # [18:47] <dbaron> glazou: That's something we can understand, not users.
  251. # [18:47] <dsinger> the alternative is css3.0, css3.1, and so on...
  252. # [18:47] <dbaron> dbaron: The point of this document was to explain that.
  253. # [18:47] <dbaron> glazou: Given that this document is unknown in the designer community, I think it's a failure.
  254. # [18:48] <dbaron> sylvaing, "css3" is a mess; any time anyone submits a draft, it's css3-something. We could make it css-something until we agree it's part of css3.
  255. # [18:48] <dbaron> s/sylvaing,/sylvaing:/
  256. # [18:48] <dbaron> sylvaing: Nobody cares about a document that describes the state of the world in 2007.
  257. # [18:49] <dbaron> SteveZ: It's also the state in 2009.
  258. # [18:49] <dbaron> SteveZ: I'm not arguing that we should do 2007 and not 2010. I really don't care which is the first doc that comes out. We do need a document that says "this is what css3 is today and this is what conformance to css3 would mean today".
  259. # [18:49] <dbaron> SteveZ: And this document, once published, doesn't change.
  260. # [18:49] <dbaron> sylvaing: Do we as a WG need to spend another half hour moving to CR the 2007 version of that snapshot?
  261. # [18:50] <dbaron> SteveZ: No, as long as we do it for 2010?
  262. # [18:50] <dbaron> peterl: I think there's a valid question whether the 2010 snapshot should be a rec-track document.
  263. # [18:50] <dbaron> SteveZ: Where would you put the order of conformance?
  264. # [18:50] <dbaron> arron: css3-mediaqueries depends on CSS21, so its conformance requires support for the others
  265. # [18:51] <dbaron> dbaron: I think part of the issue with the ordering is that we need to say what overrides things in other specs, not just what is required.
  266. # [18:51] <dbaron> glazou: I don't think we need a REC. I think an unofficial Web page from this WG is enough.
  267. # [18:51] <dbaron> SteveZ: I don't think it's good enough for claiming conformance. And there's an issue of other groups defining conformance to CSS.
  268. # [18:52] <dbaron> glazou: css3 itself is not a spec. So conformance to css3 means nothing.
  269. # [18:52] <dbaron> peterl: If this is a REC-track doc, where is its test suite?
  270. # [18:52] <dbaron> SteveZ: Test suites of individual modules.
  271. # [18:52] <dbaron> dsinger: Seems all it needs to say is "you need to be conformant to the following modules"
  272. # [18:52] <dbaron> SteveZ: And that's what it says.
  273. # [18:53] <dbaron> peterl: Do we need to take that through the REC track?
  274. # [18:53] <dbaron> SteveZ: yes
  275. # [18:53] <dsinger> s/you need to be/you must be/
  276. # [18:53] <dbaron> peterl: CSS is a moving target until this WG stops publishing docs
  277. # [18:53] <dbaron> SteveZ: not acceptable
  278. # [18:53] <dbaron> dsinger: And the point of the snapshots is that CSS 2010 is a stable target.
  279. # [18:54] <dbaron> peterl: Can't that just be a note?
  280. # [18:54] <dbaron> SteveZ: Not if you're going to define conformance.
  281. # [18:54] <dbaron> SteveZ: ... I think they have to be targets for a given market. The snapshot might define multiple sets for different markets.
  282. # [18:54] <dbaron> SteveZ: Without that, you have no guarantee that different products will behave the same way.
  283. # [18:55] <dbaron> SteveZ: And we're back in the "good old days" of competing implementations.
  284. # [18:55] <dbaron> SteveZ: And part of the process of what goes in the snapshot is that there's agreement that the people who are doing this thing to be working towards.
  285. # [18:55] <dbaron> SteveZ: Most implementations don't work very well with changing conformance in midstream.
  286. # [18:55] <dbaron> sylvaing: Which company today decides what they're going to do in CSS based on a snapshot from the WG?
  287. # [18:56] <dbaron> SteveZ: None that I know of, but I hope that they would.
  288. # [18:56] <dbaron> dbaron: Snapshot can also be following the implementors rather than leading.
  289. # [18:56] * glazou to be clear, I still think this document is useless, I said it many times in the past ; I find it a waste of time and energy, disturbing us from MUCH more important things on our radar ; if you count the fact that just nobody ever refers to it, I think we should dump it for good
  290. # [18:57] <dbaron> SteveZ: A tool provider can make a statement that this tool produces code that works with css3 part 1; it's much simpler than a list of products and versions.
  291. # [18:57] <dbaron> sylvaing: Does Adobe refer to snapshots in documentation of their products?
  292. # [18:57] <dbaron> SteveZ: We don't trust CSS3.
  293. # [18:58] <dbaron> peterl: This is a three year old document, and it had to be because of the levels of the modules it's referring to. And if it's a REC-track document, we'll always have that problem.
  294. # [18:58] <dbaron> SteveZ: That's fine.
  295. # [18:58] <glazou> szilles: can you please explain "don't trust" ?
  296. # [18:58] <dbaron> ...
  297. # [18:58] <dbaron> peterl: And that means we'll be publishing snapshots out of date.
  298. # [18:59] <dbaron> dsinger: But that's exactly right.
  299. # [18:59] <dbaron> dsinger: You can always implement the modules ahead of the snapshot.
  300. # [19:00] <dbaron> sylvaing: Do we need a snapshot document to do this? Every time somebody writes a module it gets tagged "css3". Maybe we could not add "css3" until it's done?
  301. # [19:00] <dbaron> dsinger: I think putting "css3" in the module names is confusing.
  302. # [19:00] <dbaron> dbaron: I think we did agree to drop that about 4 years ago, but we never did...
  303. # [19:00] <dbaron> glazou: Even if we drop it, Web authors will still use it.
  304. # [19:01] <dbaron> glazou: For them, it's the next version of CSS, called CSS3, whether you like it or not.
  305. # [19:01] <dbaron> SteveZ: But they can't go look at the set of specs called "css3".
  306. # [19:01] <dbaron> dsinger: The rest of the world is talking about CSS3, and I think we need to give that a definition.
  307. # [19:02] <dbaron> glazou: We have one document, "Selectors", without CSS3 in the title, and everyone calls it CSS3 selectors.
  308. # [19:02] <dbaron> dsinger: Someone should look through the module names and come up with recommendations for changes, and whether we should do this bundling.
  309. # [19:02] <Bert> (Selectors does have level 3, namespaces doesn't)
  310. # [19:03] <dbaron> SteveZ: You'll get lack of agreement about which of the modules constitutes a reasonable set for interoperability. I don't care whether it's documenting semi-future or the past. I think it's useful to have a set of things that are frozen in time, and you can have more than one of these sets (over time).
  311. # [19:03] * Quits: kojiishi (kojiishi@222.158.227.129) (Quit: Leaving...)
  312. # [19:03] <dbaron> SteveZ: What I find surprising is that I thought we had this discussion when we created the snapshots, but we seem to be bringing up the same things that caused us to create snapshots in the first place.
  313. # [19:03] * Joins: kojiishi (kojiishi@222.158.227.129)
  314. # [19:04] <dbaron> sylvaing: Can we agree that ... ? I don't see the utility of debating moving 2007 to CR.
  315. # [19:04] <Zakim> -glazou
  316. # [19:04] <dbaron> SteveZ: I don't care about 2007, but I care about 2010.
  317. # [19:05] <dbaron> SteveZ: I believe the text for 2010 is going to be basically the same as the text for 2007, except the module list.
  318. # [19:05] <glazou> grrr cannot rejoin
  319. # [19:05] <dbaron> peterl: Out of time, not sure I'm hearing consensus.
  320. # [19:05] <dbaron> SteveZ: I don't think we have consensus yet.
  321. # [19:05] <glazou> "the conference is restricted at this time" !!!
  322. # [19:05] <dbaron> SteveZ: I think a number of us believe a snapshot that documents a stake in the ground is useful, and another group believe that ...
  323. # [19:05] <glazou> sorry guys, cannot rejoin the call
  324. # [19:05] <dbaron> glazou, it's past the end time
  325. # [19:05] <glazou> painful Zakim
  326. # [19:06] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.101) (Connection reset by peer)
  327. # [19:06] <dbaron> SteveZ: We're ducking the issue of that we need to work at publicizing it.
  328. # [19:06] <dbaron> SteveZ: So if we do this we need to make sure people understand what it is and how to use it.
  329. # [19:06] <dbaron> sylvaing: I don't think it has to be a REC. But it needs to be useful and known.
  330. # [19:06] <dbaron> sylvaing: If nobody finds it there's no point.
  331. # [19:06] <dbaron> SteveZ: I think the intent was it would show up under /TR/CSS3
  332. # [19:07] <dsinger> I guess "CSS3.2 is defined as containing the following moduies" is OK, not as good as a conformance statement
  333. # [19:07] <dbaron> peterl: /TR/CSS
  334. # [19:07] <dbaron> peterl: Suggestions on how to move forward?
  335. # [19:07] <dbaron> sylvaing: Not move 2007 through the whole transition request until we figure this out?
  336. # [19:07] <dbaron> dsinger: ... and remove "css3" from names of modules.
  337. # [19:07] * glazou hopes you all understand that releasing a CSS 3.X every time we have a new stable module is crazy from a user's perspective
  338. # [19:07] <dbaron> peterl: I believe we have agreement there. Question is whether /TR/CSS needs to be REC-track or can be a NOTE.
  339. # [19:08] <dbaron> peterl: Maybe discuss over email?
  340. # [19:08] <dbaron> dsinger: Also ask people at W3C who objected to it being a REC-track document?
  341. # [19:08] <dbaron> Topic: test suite
  342. # [19:08] <glazou> Ralph ?
  343. # [19:08] <dbaron> peterl: We have RC4 online, and now need more data
  344. # [19:08] * bradk has to go. Buh bye.
  345. # [19:08] <dbaron> peterl: Harness will go to the tests we need the data the most for.
  346. # [19:09] <dbaron> peterl: We need more results to get good blocking data.
  347. # [19:09] * Quits: bradk (bradk@99.7.175.117) (Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/ )
  348. # [19:09] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.aa]
  349. # [19:09] <dbaron> peterl: So work on that for next week?
  350. # [19:09] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
  351. # [19:09] <Zakim> -johnjan
  352. # [19:09] <Zakim> -cesar
  353. # [19:09] <Zakim> -kojiishi
  354. # [19:09] <Zakim> -[Apple]
  355. # [19:09] <Zakim> -smfr
  356. # [19:09] <Zakim> -plinss_
  357. # [19:09] <Zakim> -bradk
  358. # [19:09] <dbaron> peterl: There's a teleconference next week but not the week after.
  359. # [19:09] * Quits: johnjan (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
  360. # [19:09] <Zakim> -David_Baron
  361. # [19:09] * Quits: kojiishi (kojiishi@222.158.227.129) (Quit: Leaving...)
  362. # [19:09] <Zakim> -Bert
  363. # [19:09] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  364. # [19:10] <Zakim> -danielweck
  365. # [19:10] * dbaron Zakim, who is on the phone?
  366. # [19:10] * Zakim sees on the phone: howcome
  367. # [19:10] * Parts: smfr (smfr@17.203.14.12)
  368. # [19:12] * Quits: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19) (Quit: glazou)
  369. # [19:13] * dbaron Zakim, disconnect howcome
  370. # [19:13] * Zakim howcome is being disconnected
  371. # [19:13] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  372. # [19:13] <Zakim> Attendees were +33.9.50.89.aaaa, glazou, arronei, +1.415.920.aabb, +1.858.216.aacc, plinss_, fantasai, +200000aadd, David_Baron, johnjan, +1.408.636.aaee, smfr, kojiishi,
  373. # [19:13] <Zakim> ... danielweck, dsinger, +47.23.69.aaff, +1.650.275.aagg, bradk, howcome, +34.60.940.aahh, cesar, Bert, SteveZ, [Apple]
  374. # [19:13] * Quits: cesar (acebal@85.152.178.159) (Quit: cesar)
  375. # [19:14] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@17.197.20.4) (Quit: dsinger)
  376. # [19:14] <fantasai> dbaron: thanks for taking over the minutes
  377. # [19:14] * Quits: danielweck (dweck2@86.155.167.138) (Quit: danielweck)
  378. # [19:14] <fantasai> dbaron: We got agreement at PFWG; they'll be checking over the resolution with their WG over the next 24 hours.
  379. # [19:15] <fantasai> and then send their official response
  380. # [19:20] <oyvind> have they signed Kiefer Sutherland? :)
  381. # [19:21] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.80)
  382. # [19:37] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@98.234.51.190) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  383. # [19:49] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.80) (Connection reset by peer)
  384. # [19:52] * Quits: howcome (howcome@213.236.208.22) (Ping timeout)
  385. # [20:08] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.240)
  386. # [20:14] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.240) (Ping timeout)
  387. # [20:30] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.240)
  388. # [21:02] <gsnedders> When is F2F in April planned to be?
  389. # [21:30] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.240) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  390. # [21:41] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  391. # [21:41] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.169)
  392. # [22:39] * Quits: nimbupani (Adium@24.22.131.46) (Quit: Leaving.)
  393. # [22:54] <fantasai> gsnedders: http://www.w3.org/blog/CSS/2010/09/02/resolutions_123 March 7-9, tentative
  394. # [22:56] * Joins: nimbupani (Adium@24.22.131.46)
  395. # Session Close: Thu Dec 16 00:00:01 2010

The end :)