/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2011-01-05 / end

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  69. # [17:52] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/01/05-CSS-irc
  70. # [17:52] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
  71. # [17:52] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 12 minutes
  72. # [17:52] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
  73. # [17:52] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
  74. # [17:53] * glazou may have to leave the call early today
  75. # [17:59] <glazou> Zakim, code?
  76. # [17:59] <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), glazou
  77. # [18:00] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  78. # [18:00] <Zakim> +plinss
  79. # [18:00] <Zakim> +??P15
  80. # [18:01] <glazou> european bridge totally down for me
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  83. # [18:02] <glazou> ahhhh
  84. # [18:02] <Zakim> +David_Baron
  85. # [18:04] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  86. # [18:04] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
  87. # [18:04] * Joins: johnjan (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  88. # [18:04] * glazou called the US bridge
  89. # [18:04] <Zakim> +glazou
  90. # [18:04] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.aa]
  91. # [18:04] <johnjan> zakim, microsoft is johnjan
  92. # [18:05] <arronei> zakim, microsoft has me
  93. # [18:05] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.80)
  94. # [18:05] <Zakim> +johnjan; got it
  95. # [18:05] <Zakim> sorry, arronei, I do not recognize a party named 'microsoft'
  96. # [18:05] <arronei> zakim, microsoft.aa has me
  97. # [18:05] <Zakim> +arronei; got it
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  99. # [18:05] <Zakim> +[Apple]
  100. # [18:05] * dbaron would have expected Microsoft.b to be next, not Microsoft.aa
  101. # [18:05] * dsinger zakim, [apple] has dsinger
  102. # [18:05] * Zakim +dsinger; got it
  103. # [18:05] <Zakim> +fantasai
  104. # [18:06] <Zakim> +SteveZ
  105. # [18:06] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  106. # [18:06] <dsinger> ./me depth-first numbering. or golomb codes :-)
  107. # [18:06] <kojiishi> zakim, ipcaller is me
  108. # [18:06] <Zakim> +kojiishi; got it
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  111. # [18:08] <Zakim> +cathy
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  113. # [18:09] * glazou will leave the call in 30mns from now ; important meeting sorry
  114. # [18:09] <Zakim> +bradk
  115. # [18:10] <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
  116. # [18:10] <fantasai> plinss: Anything to add to the agenda?
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  119. # [18:10] <fantasai> Topic: Comments on WOFF
  120. # [18:11] <johnjan> zakim, microsoft is johnjan
  121. # [18:11] <Zakim> sorry, johnjan, I do not recognize a party named 'microsoft'
  122. # [18:11] * dsinger steve you are very faint
  123. # [18:11] <fantasai> SteveZilles says something quietly
  124. # [18:11] * Joins: smfr (smfr@68.183.26.244)
  125. # [18:11] <dsinger> zakim, [microsoft] has johnjan
  126. # [18:11] <Zakim> sorry, dsinger, I do not recognize a party named '[microsoft]'
  127. # [18:11] <Zakim> +smfr
  128. # [18:11] * dsinger zakimn, who is here?
  129. # [18:11] <fantasai> Something about feedback that didn't make it to the public list
  130. # [18:12] <arronei> zakim, microsoft.aa has johnjan
  131. # [18:12] <Zakim> +johnjan; got it
  132. # [18:12] <fantasai> sylvaing: Bert sent feedback about WOFF to the WG list, but it never made it to www-style
  133. # [18:12] <szilles> i sent comments on WOFF http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Jan/0020.html
  134. # [18:13] <fantasai> plinss notes we are already late on comments for WOFF
  135. # [18:13] <Zakim> -bradk
  136. # [18:13] <fantasai> SteveZ: Most of my comments were editorial. The other seemed to be a conflict in their spec, possibly nontrivial to fix.
  137. # [18:14] * bradk call dropped
  138. # [18:14] <fantasai> SteveZ: They have a note about not following the XML ID syntax when putting an ID in the font, since elsewhere they say it must be well-formed XML in the metadata
  139. # [18:14] <dsinger> seems like it's either an XML ID or it needs a different name
  140. # [18:14] <Zakim> -cathy
  141. # [18:15] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
  142. # [18:15] <Zakim> +cathy
  143. # [18:15] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 12 seconds I heard sound from the following: plinss (1%), [Apple] (19%)
  144. # [18:15] <fantasai> plinss: How do we want to proceed on this?
  145. # [18:15] <fantasai> SteveZ: Do wehave a URL for Bert's comments?
  146. # [18:16] <fantasai> sylvaing: Should ask Bert if he could either make his comments public, or if we can forward it.
  147. # [18:16] <fantasai> sylvaing: He's on both working groups
  148. # [18:16] <fantasai> plinss: Are these official comments from the WG? Do we need discussion on these?
  149. # [18:16] <fantasai> plinss: We have a history of unofficial comments...
  150. # [18:17] <fantasai> dbaron: A bunch of these comments seem like comments on WOFF, not on how it relates to the work of the CSSWG.
  151. # [18:17] <Zakim> + +47.21.65.aaaa
  152. # [18:17] <fantasai> dbaron: It seems like official comments from the group ought to be things in the latter category.
  153. # [18:17] <Zakim> + +1.650.766.aabb
  154. # [18:17] <fantasai> sylvaing: That's true.
  155. # [18:17] * Joins: howcome (howcome@80.203.19.2)
  156. # [18:17] <bradk> zakim, aabb is me
  157. # [18:17] <Zakim> +bradk; got it
  158. # [18:17] <fantasai> SteveZ: The only thing I'd say is that some of the comments are from experience developing specs that they might not have.
  159. # [18:17] * dsinger apologies for forgetting the mute button
  160. # [18:18] <fantasai> SteveZ: Unfortunately ChrisL isn't here, to explain why some of those were done
  161. # [18:19] <shan> Zakim, list conferences
  162. # [18:19] <Zakim> I see WAI_PF()12:00PM, VB_VBWG(SCXML)12:00PM, Style_CSS FP()12:00PM, RWC_web-per(WPWG)12:00PM active
  163. # [18:19] <Zakim> also scheduled at this time are Team_(wf)17:00Z, XML_EXI()12:30PM, T&S_EGOV(UseWebTech)12:00PM, INC_SWXG()11:00AM
  164. # [18:20] <fantasai> Sylvaing: Well, the ID thing was because there are a number of existing WOFF fonts out there that were using malformed XML
  165. # [18:20] <fantasai> fantasai: ..
  166. # [18:21] <fantasai> SteveZ: Maybe they should change the note to say that although the ID must be well-formed XML, but that some currently-existing existing fonts might not adhere to this syntax.
  167. # [18:22] <fantasai> SteveZ: I would prefer to have my comments sent as formal comments by the WG, but I'm happy to send over unofficially.
  168. # [18:22] <fantasai> Sylvaing: This is good feedback. It has to be clear what to do
  169. # [18:22] <fantasai> plinss not hearing any objections
  170. # [18:22] <fantasai> plinss: We also have Bert's comments. Do we want to send those as formal comments?
  171. # [18:23] <fantasai> plinss: There was still some discussion on some of Bert's comments.
  172. # [18:24] <fantasai> fantasai: There are good comments, but I don't see a reason to send them as WG comments.
  173. # [18:24] <fantasai> fantasai: They're not CSS comments, just good comments.
  174. # [18:25] <fantasai> fantasai: LC requires addressing all comments, not just WG comments, so I don't see a reason to send them on behalf of the WG.
  175. # [18:25] <fantasai> howcome: ...
  176. # [18:25] <fantasai> dsinger: Do we need to send a message from the WG that we have no comments?
  177. # [18:26] <fantasai> howcome: We can do better than that. Say there were no CSS-specific comments, but there were other comments that will be submitted individually.
  178. # [18:26] <fantasai> sylvaing expresses concern that jdaggett hasn't sent any direct feedback.
  179. # [18:27] <fantasai> plinss: I don't think we can delay a week. I will send him an email asking if he has any feedback, and if not, send the WG message.
  180. # [18:27] <fantasai> plinss: Anything else on this topic?
  181. # [18:27] <fantasai> Topic: CSS2.1
  182. # [18:27] <fantasai> plinss: We still have a bunch of blocking tests and a bunch of invalid tests.
  183. # [18:28] <fantasai> arronei: With the 32-bit issue we talked about last time, I think I've addressed them all.
  184. # [18:28] <fantasai> arronei: I will send email about it. Would be great if people could review them.
  185. # [18:28] <fantasai> arronei: All I need is a review from anybody to look at them.
  186. # [18:29] <fantasai> dbaron: I can have a look when he sends out the URL.
  187. # [18:29] <fantasai> arronei: Ok, will do that in the next half-hour
  188. # [18:30] <fantasai> arronei: I've flagged the tests as 32bit and as may so you know they're optional
  189. # [18:31] <fantasai> plinss: My biggest concern at this point are the tests that have blocking failures
  190. # [18:31] <fantasai> plinss: We need to either modify the test or modify the spec
  191. # [18:31] <plinss> http://wiki.csswg.org/test/css2.1/blocking
  192. # [18:32] <fantasai> plinss: Do we want to discuss these one by one on a telecon? If not how do we move forward?
  193. # [18:33] <fantasai> fantasai: active-selector-002 was updated for RC5
  194. # [18:33] * glazou has to leave the call, sorry
  195. # [18:33] <fantasai> fantasai: I thought background-intrinsic was fixed. If it's still not passing, it's likely a test bug...
  196. # [18:34] <Zakim> -glazou
  197. # [18:34] * Quits: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19) (Quit: glazou)
  198. # [18:36] <fantasai> arronei: I think discussing them on the conference call is difficult, especially some of the margin and page breaking ones
  199. # [18:36] <fantasai> arronei: It's unfortunate we don't have an F2F soon
  200. # [18:36] <oyvind> I think neither webkit nor opera follow the spec on background-intrinsic
  201. # [18:36] <oyvind> and the others don't support svg backgrounds
  202. # [18:36] <fantasai> arronei: ....
  203. # [18:37] <fantasai> smfr: How about each test author creates a wiki page for that specific test
  204. # [18:37] <fantasai> smfr: Right now we have no way to collaboratively dump information on why we think that test is failing
  205. # [18:38] <fantasai> arronei: I'm handling mine. In most cases the case just need to be updated.
  206. # [18:38] <oyvind> http://wiki.csswg.org/test/css2.1/issues or http://wiki.csswg.org/test/css2.1/invalid (which seems to duplicate the former)?
  207. # [18:38] <fantasai> smfr: You might know, but the vendors don't
  208. # [18:39] <fantasai> fantasai: It doesn't make sense to me to do that for the invalid tests, but for the blocking tests, that might be a good idea.
  209. # [18:40] <fantasai> plinss: Arron, were you talking about the blocking tests or the invalid tests?
  210. # [18:40] <fantasai> arronei: both.. I have some updates for the blocking tests
  211. # [18:40] <fantasai> dbaron: The previous wiki page that listed blocking tests had notes on some of those
  212. # [18:41] <oyvind> http://wiki.csswg.org/test/css2.1/results
  213. # [18:41] * dbaron lost the race with oyvind
  214. # [18:41] <fantasai> plinss: I don't want to lose the notes, but I didn't want to move them over since they're on a much older release
  215. # [18:41] * oyvind :)
  216. # [18:41] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/test/css2.1
  217. # [18:42] <fantasai> some discussion of all the different pages that are being created to track problems
  218. # [18:42] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/test/css2.1/issues
  219. # [18:42] <fantasai> I think the pages are just that one and the ones peter listed
  220. # [18:42] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/test/css2.1/results
  221. # [18:42] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/test/css2.1/invalid
  222. # [18:42] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/test/css2.1/blocking
  223. # [18:43] <fantasai> fantasai: Unless Peter created more pages, that should be all of them.
  224. # [18:44] <fantasai> arronei volunteers to consolidate everything into the invalid/blocking pages
  225. # [18:45] <fantasai> arronei: I'll create subpages for the blocking issue
  226. # [18:45] <fantasai> fantasai suggests grouping tests that have the same issue into the same wiki page
  227. # [18:46] <fantasai> plinss: We need to have other people take responsibility for analyzing the test failures, not just arron.
  228. # [18:46] <fantasai> arronei: I'll do enough to get us started
  229. # [18:47] <smfr> z-index-abspos-009 is a hixie test
  230. # [18:47] <dbaron> A bunch of them (e.g., abspos-*, float-wrap-*), we've already discussed in telecons and discussed next steps for implementors.
  231. # [18:48] <fantasai> plinss: I want to get a commitment from the owners to review these tests and describe their status by next week
  232. # [18:48] <fantasai> dbaron: The ones that are mine we already had a telecon discussion about
  233. # [18:48] <fantasai> plinss: Did we get to a resolution?
  234. # [18:49] <fantasai> dbaron: I think in both cases we came to a resolution of who was going to fix their implementations
  235. # [18:49] <fantasai> dbaron: But I couldn't find minutes
  236. # [18:49] <fantasai> dbaron: For the abspos one it was a small bug in Gecko and one in Opera
  237. # [18:49] <fantasai> dbaron: For the float-wrap ones we had passes from MS, and I said I would flip our behavior after FF4 and see what happens.
  238. # [18:49] <dbaron> I think it was Opera, but not sure
  239. # [18:49] <dbaron> (this is all from memory)
  240. # [18:51] <fantasai> dbaron: Actually float-wrap-top might be different from the ones I think... I'd need to go back and look
  241. # [18:51] <fantasai> plinss: active-selector-002 has been updated
  242. # [18:51] <fantasai> plinss: active-page-breaks?
  243. # [18:51] <fantasai> fantasai: rewritten
  244. # [18:52] <fantasai> dbaron: bidi-004 is tricky. There are a bunch of implementations that are close, but not very close.
  245. # [18:52] <fantasai> dbaron: The remaining bug for us is very hairy
  246. # [18:52] <fantasai> plinss: Can you write up the comments?
  247. # [18:52] <fantasai> dbaron: Prefer if fantasai did
  248. # [18:53] <fantasai> fantasai: I can do the ones I understand, and the ones I'm not sure of would like you to review and add comments.
  249. # [18:53] <fantasai> fantasai: Can't do floats-wrap though
  250. # [18:53] <fantasai> dbaron: I'll do those
  251. # [18:53] <fantasai> fantasai: Here's the assignments:
  252. # [18:53] <fantasai> fantasai: Arron does MS tests
  253. # [18:53] <fantasai> fantasai: dbaron does floats-wrap and abspos
  254. # [18:54] <fantasai> fantasai: Arron does margin-collapse
  255. # [18:54] <fantasai> fantasai: I do anything under my folder, HP's folder, Mozilla's folder (other than the above), and Hixie's folder
  256. # [18:54] <fantasai> fantasai: and approved/
  257. # [18:54] <fantasai> fantasai: I think that should cover all of the tests
  258. # [18:55] <dbaron> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-css-testsuite/2010Nov/0124.html may be relevant data for the margin-* tests
  259. # [18:55] <fantasai> fantasai: I think the first step is for Arron to create a template for subpages and put a few up so that dbaron and I can copy
  260. # [18:55] <fantasai> arronei: Sure, I'll do that today
  261. # [18:55] <fantasai> plinss: We also have a bunch of tests that we're lacking data for
  262. # [18:55] <fantasai> plinss: Got a bunch of results from Apple this morning
  263. # [18:56] <fantasai> plinss: Still need data from the other browsers
  264. # [18:56] <fantasai> plinss: Big gap here is Prince, which may save us in some cases
  265. # [18:56] <fantasai> fantasai: Another implementation we can test is Antenna House. That may be especially useful for the page-breaking tests
  266. # [18:57] <fantasai> fantasai: Although we'd want to test against the updated tests, since a bunch have been fixed.
  267. # [18:57] <fantasai> fantasai: I'll see if I can set up a nightly build on the server
  268. # [18:58] <fantasai> fantasai: Now that we have a server with somewhat up-to-date software...
  269. # [18:58] <fantasai> plinss: I can help with that if you need any help
  270. # [18:58] <fantasai> plinss: Ok, let's get a nightly build set up and then we'll ping Antenna House
  271. # [18:58] <fantasai> plinss: any other topics?
  272. # [18:59] <dbaron> Topic: module template
  273. # [18:59] <fantasai> fantasai: I updated the module template and put it on dev.w3.org
  274. # [18:59] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-module/
  275. # [18:59] <fantasai> fantasai: You'll notice there's a lot more boilerplate text. This is partly because there was a lot of normative text in the Snapshot
  276. # [19:00] <fantasai> fantasai: Which if we don't have a normative Snapshot, needs to be moved someplace else.
  277. # [19:00] * sylvaing has resolved to say nothing about snapshots...
  278. # [19:00] <fantasai> fantasai: This means that all of our existing modules need to be updated with the relative normative bits.
  279. # [19:01] <fantasai> fantasai: That would be, Selectors, Namespaces, Background and Borders, UI, MultiCol, Color, Media Queries, etc.
  280. # [19:01] <Zakim> -bradk
  281. # [19:02] <fantasai> fantasai: So I would suggest everyone review the template, since this has to go in all our specs...
  282. # [19:03] <fantasai> SteveZ: We haven't resolved the Snapshot issue.
  283. # [19:03] <fantasai> SteveZ: My concern is that by copying this stuff all over the place, it will get inconsistent.
  284. # [19:03] <fantasai> SteveZ: But I think we agreed to postpone the Snapshot
  285. # [19:04] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-module/#partial
  286. # [19:04] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-module/#experimental
  287. # [19:04] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-module/#placement
  288. # [19:04] <fantasai> These are the bits that were taken from the Snapshot
  289. # [19:04] <Zakim> -David_Baron
  290. # [19:05] <fantasai> plinss: So meanwhile, the editors should review these.
  291. # [19:05] <fantasai> plinss: That's it for today.
  292. # [19:05] <Zakim> - +47.21.65.aaaa
  293. # [19:05] <Zakim> -johnjan
  294. # [19:05] <fantasai> Meeting closed.
  295. # [19:05] <Zakim> -smfr
  296. # [19:05] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
  297. # [19:05] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.aa]
  298. # [19:05] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  299. # [19:05] <Zakim> -kojiishi
  300. # [19:05] * Quits: johnjan (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
  301. # [19:05] <Zakim> -plinss
  302. # [19:05] <Zakim> -cathy
  303. # [19:05] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.80) (Quit: sylvaing)
  304. # [19:05] <Zakim> -[Apple]
  305. # [19:05] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@17.197.20.4) (Quit: dsinger)
  306. # [19:05] * Parts: cathy (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  307. # [19:05] <Zakim> -??P15
  308. # [19:06] <Zakim> -fantasai
  309. # [19:06] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  310. # [19:06] <Zakim> Attendees were plinss, David_Baron, glazou, johnjan, arronei, dsinger, fantasai, SteveZ, kojiishi, cathy, bradk, smfr, +47.21.65.aaaa, +1.650.766.aabb
  311. # [19:06] * Parts: smfr (smfr@68.183.26.244)
  312. # [19:06] * Quits: kojiishi (kojiishi@222.158.227.129) (Quit: Leaving...)
  313. # [19:06] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@98.234.51.190) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  314. # [19:15] * Quits: bradk (bradk@99.7.175.117) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep)
  315. # [19:25] * Quits: oyvind (oyvinds@213.236.208.22) (Quit: oyvind)
  316. # [19:28] * Parts: shan (soonbo.han@111.118.53.146)
  317. # [20:07] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.240)
  318. # [20:13] * Quits: howcome (howcome@80.203.19.2) (Ping timeout)
  319. # [20:25] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  320. # [20:25] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.169)
  321. # [20:29] * Quits: anne (annevk@83.85.115.123) (Quit: anne)
  322. # [20:41] <arronei> Simple template for the blocking testcases http://wiki.csswg.org/test/css2.1/blocking/margin-collapse
  323. # [20:42] <arronei> please review the template and apply it to your testcase failures on the blocking page
  324. # [21:38] * Joins: mollydotcom (mollyh@68.225.52.230)
  325. # [22:40] * Joins: nimbupani (Adium@24.22.131.46)
  326. # Session Close: Thu Jan 06 00:00:00 2011

The end :)