/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2011-02-02 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Feb 02 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  52. # [17:57] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/02/02-css-irc
  53. # [17:58] <plinss> rrsagent, make logs public
  54. # [17:58] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, plinss
  55. # [17:58] <plinss> zakim, this will be style
  56. # [17:58] <Zakim> ok, plinss; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
  57. # [17:59] * Joins: kojiishi (kojiishi@222.158.227.129)
  58. # [18:02] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@128.31.35.219)
  59. # [18:03] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  60. # [18:03] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  61. # [18:03] * Joins: bradk (bradk@166.205.137.41)
  62. # [18:03] <Zakim> +plinss
  63. # [18:03] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  64. # [18:03] * Joins: oyvind (oyvinds@213.236.208.22)
  65. # [18:04] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  66. # [18:04] <arronei> zakim, microsoft has me
  67. # [18:04] * Joins: dsinger_ (dsinger@66.109.105.116)
  68. # [18:04] <Zakim> +arronei; got it
  69. # [18:04] <Zakim> +??P20
  70. # [18:04] * Joins: cesar (acebal@85.152.178.140)
  71. # [18:04] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
  72. # [18:04] * bradk is only partially here (no phone, and not full attention).
  73. # [18:05] <Zakim> +??P1
  74. # [18:05] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.aa]
  75. # [18:05] <Zakim> +fantasai
  76. # [18:05] <Zakim> -??P20
  77. # [18:05] * Joins: johnjan (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  78. # [18:05] <Zakim> +dsinger
  79. # [18:05] <johnjan> zakim, microsoft is johnjan
  80. # [18:05] <Zakim> +johnjan; got it
  81. # [18:05] <danielweck> zakim, +??P1 is me
  82. # [18:05] <Zakim> sorry, danielweck, I do not recognize a party named '+??P1'
  83. # [18:05] * TabAtkins is coming.
  84. # [18:05] <Zakim> +??P16
  85. # [18:05] * dsinger_ zakim, mute dsinger
  86. # [18:05] * Zakim dsinger should now be muted
  87. # [18:05] <danielweck> zakim, ??P1 is me
  88. # [18:05] <Zakim> +danielweck; got it
  89. # [18:05] <kojiishi> zakim, ??P16 is me
  90. # [18:05] <Zakim> +kojiishi; got it
  91. # [18:06] <dsinger_> zakim, who is here?
  92. # [18:06] <Zakim> On the phone I see plinss, johnjan, [Microsoft.a], danielweck, [Microsoft.aa], fantasai, dsinger (muted), kojiishi
  93. # [18:06] <Zakim> johnjan has arronei
  94. # [18:06] <Zakim> On IRC I see johnjan, cesar, dsinger_, oyvind, bradk, MikeSmith, kojiishi, RRSAgent, Zakim, danielweck, dbaron, Martijnc, kennyluck, miketaylr, lhnz, karl, Ms2ger, anne, arronei,
  95. # [18:06] <Zakim> ... CSSWG_LogBot, Bert, krijnh, fantasai, jgraham, gsnedders, plinss, Hixie, TabAtkins, trackbot
  96. # [18:06] <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
  97. # [18:06] * dbaron Zakim, [Mozilla] is dbaron
  98. # [18:06] * Zakim +dbaron; got it
  99. # [18:07] * Quits: Ms2ger (Ms2ger@91.181.209.122) (Ping timeout)
  100. # [18:07] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.80)
  101. # [18:08] * Joins: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.169)
  102. # [18:08] <cesar> I'm having problems with Skype and the conference code (through Nice number; I'll try another one...)
  103. # [18:08] <Zakim> +Bert
  104. # [18:08] * Joins: howcome (howcome@80.203.19.2)
  105. # [18:08] <Zakim> +howcome
  106. # [18:09] * Bert needed five tries to connect. :-(
  107. # [18:09] <Zakim> +SteveZ
  108. # [18:09] <sylvaing> scribenick: sylvaing
  109. # [18:10] * Joins: szilles (chatzilla@71.83.118.221)
  110. # [18:10] * Joins: smfr (smfr@68.183.195.83)
  111. # [18:10] <sylvaing> Topic: CSS2.1 status
  112. # [18:10] <Zakim> + +34.60.940.aaaa
  113. # [18:10] <Zakim> +smfr
  114. # [18:10] <cesar> Zakim, aaa is me.
  115. # [18:10] <Zakim> sorry, cesar, I do not recognize a party named 'aaa'
  116. # [18:11] <sylvaing> arronei: my updates are done. emails on changes will follow today
  117. # [18:11] <sylvaing> dbaron: I've checked in all my updates as well
  118. # [18:11] <cesar> member:Zakim, aaaa is me
  119. # [18:11] <Zakim> + +39.524.9.aabb
  120. # [18:11] <sylvaing> plinss: any other updates ?
  121. # [18:11] <sylvaing> fantasai: I have some bidi and outline test updates coming
  122. # [18:11] <smfr> Zakim, aaaa is cesar
  123. # [18:11] <Zakim> +cesar; got it
  124. # [18:13] <sylvaing> fantasai: I should be able to fix these today.
  125. # [18:13] * Joins: alexmog (alexmog@24.16.133.35)
  126. # [18:13] <sylvaing> plinss: someone needs to remove run-in. who does that ?
  127. # [18:13] <sylvaing> arronei: testcases or spec prose ?
  128. # [18:14] <sylvaing> plinss: both
  129. # [18:14] <sylvaing> arronei: I can remove the run-in testcases
  130. # [18:14] * Joins: TabAtkins_ (tabatkins@216.239.45.4)
  131. # [18:15] <Zakim> + +1.650.214.aacc
  132. # [18:15] <TabAtkins_> zakim, aacc is TabAtkins
  133. # [18:15] <Zakim> +TabAtkins; got it
  134. # [18:15] <Zakim> +??P32
  135. # [18:16] <Zakim> -??P32
  136. # [18:16] * Quits: arronei (arronei@131.107.0.78) (Ping timeout)
  137. # [18:16] <dbaron> Zakim, who is on the phone?
  138. # [18:16] <Zakim> On the phone I see plinss, johnjan, [Microsoft.a], danielweck, [Microsoft.aa], fantasai, dsinger (muted), kojiishi, dbaron, Bert, howcome, SteveZ, cesar, smfr, +39.524.9.aabb,
  139. # [18:16] <Zakim> ... TabAtkins
  140. # [18:16] <Zakim> johnjan has arronei
  141. # [18:17] <sylvaing> plinss, fantasai: run-in needs to move to CSS3 Box
  142. # [18:17] * dsinger_ someone shuffling in the background? Mute please?
  143. # [18:17] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
  144. # [18:17] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: danielweck (9%), [Microsoft.a] (17%), [Microsoft.aa] (48%)
  145. # [18:17] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
  146. # [18:17] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [Microsoft.a] (30%), [Microsoft.aa] (45%)
  147. # [18:18] <Bert> I can hardly hear what Elika says, but I could probably propose an edit for CSS 2.1.
  148. # [18:18] <Bert> (And move the def to Box, of course.)
  149. # [18:18] <fantasai> yes
  150. # [18:18] <sylvaing> ACTION: Bert to propose CSS2.1 edit to remove run-in and move to CSS3 Box
  151. # [18:18] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  152. # [18:18] * RRSAgent records action 1
  153. # [18:18] <trackbot> Created ACTION-291 - Propose CSS2.1 edit to remove run-in and move to CSS3 Box [on Bert Bos - due 2011-02-09].
  154. # [18:18] <johnjan> bert, what's your ETA on that?
  155. # [18:19] * Joins: arronei (arronei@131.107.0.106)
  156. # [18:19] * gsnedders remembers he was meant to call in now, but he's now been the student he is and drunk a pint :P
  157. # [18:19] <sylvaing> plinss: the test harness runs on top of nightlies
  158. # [18:20] <sylvaing> fantasai: we still have open issues on the issues list
  159. # [18:20] <sylvaing> arronei: I haven't added anything to the CSS21 issues list
  160. # [18:21] <sylvaing> ACTION: fantasai to review and update the CSS21 open issues list
  161. # [18:21] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  162. # [18:21] * RRSAgent records action 2
  163. # [18:21] <trackbot> Created ACTION-292 - Review and update the CSS21 open issues list [on Elika Etemad - due 2011-02-09].
  164. # [18:21] * Quits: alexmog (alexmog@24.16.133.35) (Ping timeout)
  165. # [18:21] * Joins: alexmog (alexmog@24.16.133.35)
  166. # [18:23] <johnjan> sounds like Bert's edit and the list of open issues are the only things blocking PR.
  167. # [18:23] <sylvaing> Topic: publication request for CSS3 Speech
  168. # [18:23] <johnjan> as long as the test harness shows passes correctly.
  169. # [18:23] <danielweck> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-speech/
  170. # [18:24] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  171. # [18:24] <sylvaing> danielweck: the current draft is being updated as we speak. I think it is ready for LC
  172. # [18:24] <sylvaing> danielweck: three issues at this point
  173. # [18:24] <sylvaing> danielweck: in order for the document to reach LC, do I have to remove all issues currently in document as well as editor's comments ?
  174. # [18:24] <alexmog> zakim, ipcaller is alex
  175. # [18:25] <Zakim> +alex; got it
  176. # [18:25] <sylvaing> chrisl: you can keep editor's comments but you must deal with all open issues to reach LC
  177. # [18:25] * Quits: dsinger_ (dsinger@66.109.105.116) (Ping timeout)
  178. # [18:25] <sylvaing> danielweck: there is no consensus to remove the phonemes property so I would keep it in there. there are strong views both ways
  179. # [18:26] <sylvaing> fantasai: we should attempt to discuss and resolve the issue in the WG
  180. # [18:27] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@17.197.20.4)
  181. # [18:27] <Zakim> -alex
  182. # [18:27] <smfr> gee, that almost sounds like hyphenation-resource
  183. # [18:27] <Zakim> +[Apple]
  184. # [18:27] <Zakim> -dsinger
  185. # [18:27] <dsinger> zakim, [apple] has dsinger
  186. # [18:27] <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
  187. # [18:28] * alexmog can't get through to the phone, will try another number...
  188. # [18:28] <sylvaing> danielweck: objections we had included the inability to bind a w3c PLS to an HTML document and this was the only way to do it. others thought this did not constitute styling.
  189. # [18:28] <dbaron> Is it possible to replace "(the actual arithmetics involved are beyond the scope of this specification, please refer to existing literature on that subject)" with "(the twelfth root of two)"? :-)
  190. # [18:28] <sylvaing> danielweck: as this is well-defined, I would rather go to LC with the feature
  191. # [18:29] <Bert> q+ to ask if the list of editors is still correct, or are they rather "former editors."
  192. # [18:29] * Zakim sees Bert on the speaker queue
  193. # [18:30] <dbaron> Also, I wonder if the 'st' unit should be described in a separate section rather than defined only within the definition of a property's value.
  194. # [18:30] <sylvaing> next issue: the mark element. I feel specifying this is out of scope for CSS. It is also not implemented
  195. # [18:30] <sylvaing> last issue: speak:none
  196. # [18:30] * Joins: Ms2ger (Ms2ger@91.181.209.122)
  197. # [18:31] <sylvaing> danielweck: I think we should remove the none value from the speak property. whether something is spoken or not would be controlled elsewhere
  198. # [18:31] <dbaron> speak:none is more like visibility:hidden than like display:none
  199. # [18:31] <ChrisL> so, an audio equivalent of 'display', then?
  200. # [18:31] <Ms2ger> display:none should apply to audio IIRC
  201. # [18:32] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Jan/0483.html
  202. # [18:32] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Jan/0204.html
  203. # [18:33] <sylvaing> danielweck: semantically visibility:hidden is similar to opacity:0. whereas speak:none does not imply silence for that particular content
  204. # [18:33] <sylvaing> danielweck: we are really pruning the 'spoken tree'
  205. # [18:33] <sylvaing> dbaron: ok, but why do you need an additional property ?
  206. # [18:34] <sylvaing> dbaron: does display apply to speech ?
  207. # [18:34] <sylvaing> danielweck: it does but I don't think it's appropriate
  208. # [18:34] <Zakim> -danielweck
  209. # [18:35] <sylvaing> danielweck: I would rather have the ability to decide whether display affects speech
  210. # [18:36] * bradk thinks that things which ate not displayed should also not be spoken.
  211. # [18:36] <plinss> daniel, are you trying to call back in?
  212. # [18:36] * fantasai is that true for skip links, bradk?
  213. # [18:36] <bradk> S/ate/are
  214. # [18:36] * sylvaing brad, that may be a reasonable default but there are likely use-cases where that doesn't work
  215. # [18:36] <Bert> (You can always change the 'display' back in an @media rule, if they *do* need to be spoken.)
  216. # [18:37] <dbaron> yeah, so the proposal in 0483.html seems ok (though I'm not crazy about the names).
  217. # [18:37] <danielweck> no audio here
  218. # [18:37] <dbaron> danielweck, you dropped off the call
  219. # [18:37] <dbaron> danielweck, call in again?
  220. # [18:38] <Zakim> +??P36
  221. # [18:38] <danielweck> zakim, ??P36 is me
  222. # [18:38] <Zakim> +danielweck; got it
  223. # [18:38] * Quits: alexmog (alexmog@24.16.133.35) (Ping timeout)
  224. # [18:38] * Joins: alexmog (alexmog@24.16.133.35)
  225. # [18:38] <bradk> I can't tab to links when they are in something with display:none.
  226. # [18:40] <sylvaing> fantasai: display hides an entire subtree. visibility can be overriden. there is no parallel for the latter in the speech module if it depends on display. if this scenario is important for speech then you would need another property similar to visibility
  227. # [18:41] <sylvaing> fantasai: and I don't think it should happen with speak:none
  228. # [18:42] <sylvaing> danielweck: one can achieve that using voice volume but you then have the aural equivalent of visibility:hidden where the quiet content still takes space
  229. # [18:43] <sylvaing> danielweck: so the first problem with speak:none is that it could be replaced with display:none. but there remains a need to allow speech even if the content is not displayed
  230. # [18:44] * bradk is reading about skip links.
  231. # [18:45] <Bert> (I'm reminded of <details> in HTML5: how to hide the element but show/speak its <summary> child.)
  232. # [18:45] <fantasai> (That's a good example.)
  233. # [18:46] <bradk> Volume = opacity?
  234. # [18:47] <sylvaing> szilles: the concern that hidden content would result in long pauses could be addressed with other markers such as a beep indicating missing content
  235. # [18:48] <sylvaing> danielweck: today we don't have any relationship between visibility:hidden and the aural rendering. but I'm in favor of indicating whether sometihng should be expected there
  236. # [18:48] <sylvaing> szilles: I think visibility:hidden should have implications in the aural space as well
  237. # [18:48] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  238. # [18:49] <alexmog> zakim, ipcaller is alex
  239. # [18:49] <Zakim> +alex; got it
  240. # [18:50] <smfr> maybe we should take this discussion to the list
  241. # [18:50] <bradk> We want Skip links that render aurally, but are display:none visually, eh?
  242. # [18:50] <fantasai> right
  243. # [18:51] <sylvaing> szilles: the use-case I understand is that the underlying HTML includes nodes that are solely intended for speech only and I need a mechanism to allow them to be spoken even though they will never be displayed
  244. # [18:51] <bradk> Yeah, @media for that, I would think.
  245. # [18:51] <Zakim> - +39.524.9.aabb
  246. # [18:51] <fantasai> That doesn't solve the <details> case Bert was talking about
  247. # [18:51] <fantasai> display: none removes the entire subtree. If you want to override part of that, you can't
  248. # [18:52] <bradk> Hmm.
  249. # [18:53] <Zakim> + +39.524.9.aadd
  250. # [18:53] <sylvaing> (speak:none discussion to be continued in the mailing list)
  251. # [18:53] <sylvaing> danielweck: any objections to removing the mark properties ?
  252. # [18:53] <ChrisL> I wonder if, instead of a single 'hidden' we need two values, 'silent' and 'skipped'
  253. # [18:54] <bradk> Can you post a Link to mark props?
  254. # [18:55] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-speech/#mark-props
  255. # [18:55] <ChrisL> skipped is not possible currently except with display none whichalso prevents children overridding it
  256. # [18:56] <bradk> Thnx
  257. # [18:56] <sylvaing> danielweck: I think mark duplicates an HTML feature and it is meant to generate events which should be out of scope here
  258. # [18:57] * sylvaing garbage collection placeholder module
  259. # [18:57] <smfr> heh
  260. # [18:58] <szilles> +1 to remove
  261. # [18:58] <sylvaing> RESOLUTION: remove mark properties from CSS3 Speech
  262. # [18:59] <sylvaing> danielweck: as for phonemes, the arguments in favor of keeping it are good and the feature is well defined so I am happy to keep it
  263. # [19:01] <sylvaing> fantasai: I'd like to see an issue raised on the HTML side
  264. # [19:01] <sylvaing> bert: could you use the content property ?
  265. # [19:01] <sylvaing> danielweck: you would need intimate knowledge of your speech system to get the right value
  266. # [19:02] <fantasai> content: phonemes(...)
  267. # [19:02] <sylvaing> danielweck: but then you would replace content in the visual rendering as well
  268. # [19:03] * Quits: anne (annevk@83.85.115.123) (Quit: anne)
  269. # [19:04] <Bert> (Might be useful to distinguish Ian (eye-un) from Ian (ee-un) :-) )
  270. # [19:04] <Zakim> -dbaron
  271. # [19:04] <fantasai> <span id="tomato">tomato</span>
  272. # [19:05] <smfr> gtg
  273. # [19:05] * Quits: smfr (smfr@68.183.195.83) (Quit: smfr)
  274. # [19:05] <Zakim> -smfr
  275. # [19:05] <sylvaing> szilles: so this is aural styling
  276. # [19:06] <sylvaing> danielweck: yes, you can bind a particular pronunciation - aural styling - to an element
  277. # [19:06] <sylvaing> danielweck: as opposed to choosing a general speech dictionary for the entire document
  278. # [19:07] <ChrisL> link rel="lexicon" would see to fix that for html
  279. # [19:07] <fantasai> danielweck explains that if you want to associate a pronunciation lexicon to the document, you use PLS. It will affect all words in the document. This allows changing one particular instance to be different from what's in the dictionary.
  280. # [19:07] <Zakim> -danielweck
  281. # [19:08] <Bert> (I guess we're out of time, but how about a *conditional* phonemes property: 'phonemes: "tomato" -> "...", "patato" -> "..."')
  282. # [19:08] <sylvaing> chrisl: there is a possible maintenance problem here where the stylesheet is out of synch with the content
  283. # [19:08] <Zakim> -alex
  284. # [19:08] <sylvaing> szilles: this issue already exists with the content property
  285. # [19:09] <bradk> Aural style sheet: #toe { content: "t\0252" }
  286. # [19:09] <sylvaing> plinss: we should take this issue back to the mailing list
  287. # [19:09] <danielweck> "the conference is restricted at this time"
  288. # [19:09] <sylvaing> szilles: I think we need to agree whether this is a styling feature; then what's the best way to assign the phonemes to the content
  289. # [19:09] <danielweck> damn !
  290. # [19:10] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
  291. # [19:10] <Zakim> - +39.524.9.aadd
  292. # [19:10] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.aa]
  293. # [19:10] <Zakim> -johnjan
  294. # [19:10] <Zakim> -cesar
  295. # [19:10] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  296. # [19:10] <Zakim> -[Apple]
  297. # [19:10] <Zakim> -plinss
  298. # [19:10] <Zakim> -Bert
  299. # [19:10] <dsinger> tootle-ooh
  300. # [19:10] <Zakim> -howcome
  301. # [19:10] <fantasai> Meeting closed.
  302. # [19:10] <Zakim> -kojiishi
  303. # [19:10] <Zakim> -TabAtkins
  304. # [19:11] <fantasai> (Bert, that's handled by PLS)
  305. # [19:11] * Quits: bradk (bradk@166.205.137.41) (Quit: Signing Off. Buh-bye. )
  306. # [19:11] <fantasai> (Although if you want to change the mapping per-element, you might need something else ...)
  307. # [19:11] <Zakim> -fantasai
  308. # [19:11] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  309. # [19:11] <Zakim> Attendees were plinss, arronei, fantasai, dsinger, johnjan, danielweck, kojiishi, dbaron, Bert, howcome, SteveZ, +34.60.940.aaaa, smfr, +39.524.9.aabb, cesar, +1.650.214.aacc,
  310. # [19:11] <Zakim> ... TabAtkins, alex, +39.524.9.aadd
  311. # [19:11] * Quits: johnjan (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
  312. # [19:11] * Quits: alexmog (alexmog@24.16.133.35) (Ping timeout)
  313. # [19:12] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@17.197.20.4) (Quit: dsinger)
  314. # [19:12] <fantasai> danielweck: btw, did you catch ChrisL's comment about associating a lexicon in HTML?
  315. # [19:13] <fantasai> danielweck: you would use <link> with a particular 'rel' value. You just need to agree on and standardize the rel value.
  316. # [19:13] <danielweck> right, this would be useful, but doesn't address the per-element use-case
  317. # [19:13] <fantasai> right
  318. # [19:13] <danielweck> ("element" in the broad sense)
  319. # [19:14] <danielweck> authors need a way to customize whatever the default pronounciation rule is
  320. # [19:14] * Quits: TabAtkins_ (tabatkins@216.239.45.4) (Ping timeout)
  321. # [19:14] <fantasai> danielweck: I think that should be handled in HTML
  322. # [19:14] <fantasai> danielweck: Just because there's an existing draft of a feature to handle this in CSS doesn't mean it has to be done in CSS
  323. # [19:14] <danielweck> (regardless of whether it comes from a PLS lexicon attached to the HTML document, or from the default TTS engine phonetics)
  324. # [19:14] <fantasai> danielweck: Has there been an issue raised against HTML for this?
  325. # [19:15] <danielweck> for PLS, yes
  326. # [19:15] <danielweck> (long time ago)
  327. # [19:15] <fantasai> danielweck: but not for this
  328. # [19:15] <fantasai> ?
  329. # [19:15] <danielweck> no
  330. # [19:15] <fantasai> danielweck: I think that's the right way forward.
  331. # [19:15] <danielweck> why do you think it is not related to styling ? (what about the 'speak' property then ?)
  332. # [19:16] <danielweck> after all, it "styles" the audio output
  333. # [19:16] <fantasai> it's very specific to the content being styled
  334. # [19:17] <fantasai> I don't think it belongs in the style sheet
  335. # [19:17] <ChrisL> its not clear that an issue needs to be raised against html5. the list of rel values for the link element is open ended
  336. # [19:17] <danielweck> right, just like "speak" then. No ?
  337. # [19:17] * Quits: szilles (chatzilla@71.83.118.221) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.13/20101203075014])
  338. # [19:17] <fantasai> ChrisL: For the lexicon, no
  339. # [19:17] <fantasai> ChrisL: but for phonemes, probably
  340. # [19:17] <ChrisL> right
  341. # [19:18] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.169)
  342. # [19:18] <fantasai> danielweck: You're right that speak is close to that fuzzy boundary of style and content. If I change a word with its synonym, I don't need to update speak
  343. # [19:18] <fantasai> danielweck: s/If/Bug/
  344. # [19:18] <fantasai> s/Bug/But
  345. # [19:19] <fantasai> I see 'speak' being used like
  346. # [19:19] <fantasai> .productnum { speak: digits; }
  347. # [19:19] <danielweck> Fantasai: "it's very specific to the content being styled"---- I am trying to understand what you mean: the 'speak' property defines "how text should be spoken out" (spelling, etc), which is semantically equivalent to "styling in the aural dimension"
  348. # [19:19] <fantasai> .code { speak: literal-punctuation }
  349. # [19:19] <danielweck> I see phonemes pretty much in the same ballpark
  350. # [19:20] <fantasai> "how text should be spoken out" is "rendering in the aural dimension" not necessarily "styling in the aural dimension"
  351. # [19:20] <fantasai> speak keys off of the structure of the document and the semantics of the tagging
  352. # [19:20] <fantasai> not the actual content
  353. # [19:20] <fantasai> that's the key distinction here, to me
  354. # [19:20] <danielweck> ok
  355. # [19:23] <danielweck> I'll revive the public discussion, hopefully we can articulate this issue to remove the "fuziness" of its definition. ;)
  356. # [19:26] <fantasai> wrt PLS
  357. # [19:26] <fantasai> I would suggest using "pronunciation-lexicon" or somesuch as a <link rel=".."> value
  358. # [19:27] * Quits: cesar (acebal@85.152.178.140) (Quit: cesar)
  359. # [19:31] <danielweck> PLS:
  360. # [19:31] <danielweck> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7601
  361. # [19:31] <danielweck> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/RelExtensions
  362. # [19:32] <danielweck> Ian Hickson says the keyword should be deployed first, then taken into consideration
  363. # [19:32] <danielweck> chicken and egg...
  364. # [19:34] <Ms2ger> Just add it to the wiki as a proposal
  365. # [19:36] <fantasai> danielweck: no, not really. Rel values do not need to be standardized through W3C in order to be used
  366. # [19:36] <fantasai> danielweck: They are defined as an extension mechanism
  367. # [19:38] <fantasai> danielweck: as Ms2ger says, just add it to the wiki as a proposal
  368. # [19:38] <danielweck> Hixie:
  369. # [19:38] <danielweck> Proposals should go here:
  370. # [19:38] <danielweck> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/RelExtensions
  371. # [19:38] <danielweck> You'll need to write a spec first, and demonstrate that people are using the
  372. # [19:38] <danielweck> keyword.
  373. # [19:38] <danielweck> Please let us know once this keyword is deployed, for reconsideration.
  374. # [19:39] <fantasai> Right
  375. # [19:39] <fantasai> so you write the proposal and the spec for the proposal there
  376. # [19:39] <fantasai> and then people can use it
  377. # [19:39] <fantasai> no problem
  378. # [19:39] <fantasai> if it becomes popular enough, it might get added to the list in the HTML spec
  379. # [19:39] <fantasai> but it doesn't need to be there
  380. # [19:40] <Ms2ger> Or at IANA
  381. # [19:40] <fantasai> quite a few of the rel values in the official list started at microformats.org
  382. # [19:41] <danielweck> I wonder how Nick Levinson (see bug comments) ended-up with a 177 pages specification, and yet failed to reach acceptance of the "pronunciation" keyword ??
  383. # [19:41] <fantasai> I have no idea
  384. # [19:42] <fantasai> given most values only have a one or two-sentence description...
  385. # [19:42] <Ms2ger> Maybe because of the length?
  386. # [19:42] <danielweck> :)
  387. # [19:43] <fantasai> "Links to a pronunciation lexicon or other pronunciation resource for the current document. The resource type should be given by the type attribute" or somesuch seems mostly adequate to me...
  388. # [19:43] <fantasai> danielweck: what is EPUB doing wrt associating PLS files?
  389. # [19:43] <Ms2ger> The missing value default and invalid value default for the type attribute are ...
  390. # [19:43] <Ms2ger> ;)
  391. # [19:43] <fantasai> there aren't any
  392. # [19:44] <fantasai> you use the HTTP-returned type
  393. # [19:44] <fantasai> just like for every other link ;)
  394. # [19:48] * Quits: oyvind (oyvinds@213.236.208.22) (Quit: oyvind)
  395. # [19:52] * Quits: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.169) (Quit: Fire on main board error, client combusted)
  396. # [20:04] <danielweck> @Fantasai EPUB3 allows authors to include a PLS file within the publication, which then applies to all the XHTML documents that the publication contains.
  397. # [20:04] <danielweck> http://epub-revision.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/build/spec/epub30-overview.html#sec-tts
  398. # [20:05] <danielweck> So we only reference a MIME-type
  399. # [20:05] <danielweck> not "rel" keyword is needed
  400. # [20:05] <danielweck> (association PLS-HTML is not on a per-document basis, but at the level of the publication as a whole)
  401. # [20:06] <danielweck> MIME type = application/pls+xml
  402. # [20:08] <danielweck> EPUB has a concept of "manifest", which lists all the files that belong to the publication
  403. # [20:08] <danielweck> <manifest>
  404. # [20:08] <danielweck> <item id="c1" href="chap1.xhtml"
  405. # [20:08] <danielweck> media-type="application/xhtml+xml"/>
  406. # [20:08] <danielweck> <item id="f1" href="./images/cover.svg"
  407. # [20:08] <danielweck> media-type="image/svg+xml" properties="cover-image"/>
  408. # [20:08] <danielweck> <item id="f2" href="./images/fig2.jpg"
  409. # [20:08] <danielweck> media-type="image/jpeg"/>
  410. # [20:09] <danielweck> <item id="css" href="./style/book.css"
  411. # [20:09] <danielweck> media-type="text/css"/>
  412. # [20:09] <danielweck> <item id="pls" href="./speech/dict.pls"
  413. # [20:09] <danielweck> media-type="application/pls+xml"/>
  414. # [20:09] <danielweck> </manifest>
  415. # [20:09] <danielweck> (PLS file at the bottom, in this example)
  416. # [20:36] <fantasai> danielweck: are CSS files typically included that way instead of via <link> ?
  417. # [20:36] <danielweck> no, just PLS :)
  418. # [20:37] <fantasai> k :)
  419. # [20:37] <danielweck> (CSS apply to specific HTML files only)
  420. # [20:37] <fantasai> i see
  421. # [20:37] <danielweck> for example, an XHTML file for the TOC, one for each chapter, one for the bibliography, etc.
  422. # [20:37] <danielweck> PLS is global
  423. # [20:37] * Joins: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.169)
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  426. # [20:55] <danielweck> @fantasai: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/RelExtensions
  427. # [20:55] <danielweck> (at top of list)
  428. # [21:00] * Quits: Martijnc (Martijnc@91.176.23.208) (Quit: Martijnc)
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  430. # [21:06] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  431. # [21:06] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.169)
  432. # [21:13] <danielweck> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7601#c6
  433. # [21:13] <danielweck> bug re-activated
  434. # [21:13] <danielweck> (contacting the PLS folks now)
  435. # [21:13] <danielweck> (Daniel Burnett, also involved in SSML and Speech incubator group)
  436. # [21:16] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@128.31.35.219) (Ping timeout)
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  439. # [21:36] <danielweck> For those interested in the whole HTML+PLS thing, see here:
  440. # [21:36] <danielweck> http://groups.google.com/group/epub-21-working-group/browse_thread/thread/6492e45772293ecc
  441. # [21:36] <danielweck> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-voice/2011JanMar/0021.html
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  456. # Session Close: Thu Feb 03 00:00:00 2011

The end :)