/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2011-02-23 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Feb 23 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  13. # [05:03] <dydz> With regards to <http://www.w3.org/TR/cssom-view/#offset-attributes> for <col> and <colgroup>, should the offset{Left, Top, Width, Height} be 0
  14. # [05:03] <dydz> ?
  15. # [05:07] <dydz> Notice, "CSS layout box" isn't explicitly defined.
  16. # [05:08] <dydz> 17.2.1 of the CSS 2.1 spec. <http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/tables.html#anonymous-boxes> implies that a table column and table column group have boxes
  17. # [05:09] <dydz> Moreover, by 17.2 <http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/tables.html#table-display>, elements with display:table-column or display:table-column-group are said to be rendered as if they had display:none
  18. # [05:12] <dydz> Another question, what should offset{Left, Top, Width, Height} be for for row-groups
  19. # [05:12] <dydz> ?
  20. # [05:21] <dydz> Using the example page <http://tersk.intudata.com/~dbates/ie-bug/table-offsets-example.html> as a basis. Mac Opera 11.01 and IE 8 and IE 9 in standards mode returns 0 for all offset properties for <col> and <colgroup>.
  21. # [05:21] <dydz> Mac Firefox 3.6.13, and IE8 and IE9 in quirks-mode returns values non-zero values for offsetWidth and offsetHeight. Firefox returns non-zero values for offsetLeft and offsetTop
  22. # [05:22] <dydz> IE 8 and IE 9 in quirks-mode always return 0 for offsetLeft and offsetTop for <col> and <colgroup>
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  57. # [17:56] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/02/23-css-irc
  58. # [17:57] <plinss> rrsagent, make logs public
  59. # [17:57] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, plinss
  60. # [17:57] <plinss> zakim, this will be style
  61. # [17:57] <Zakim> ok, plinss; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
  62. # [17:57] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.80)
  63. # [18:00] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@17.80.152.133)
  64. # [18:00] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  65. # [18:00] <Zakim> +dsinger
  66. # [18:00] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  67. # [18:01] <dsinger> zakim, mute dsinger
  68. # [18:01] <Zakim> dsinger should now be muted
  69. # [18:01] <Zakim> +plinss
  70. # [18:01] * dsinger good morning
  71. # [18:01] <sylvaing> Zakim, [Microsoft] has sylvaing
  72. # [18:01] <Zakim> +sylvaing; got it
  73. # [18:01] * dsinger is thinking of a wiLLfuLL vioLation of capitaLization ruLes
  74. # [18:02] * Joins: oyvind (oyvinds@213.236.208.22)
  75. # [18:03] * Joins: JohnJan (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  76. # [18:03] * sylvaing lol
  77. # [18:03] * dsinger I confess I knew what small caps, uppercase, initial caps, were, but thought 'capitalization' was a generic term covering all of them, and that I'd have to look up titlecaps :-(
  78. # [18:03] <Zakim> +David_Baron
  79. # [18:03] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
  80. # [18:03] * Joins: bradk (bradk@99.7.175.117)
  81. # [18:03] <JohnJan> zakim, microsoft is johnjan
  82. # [18:04] <Zakim> +johnjan; got it
  83. # [18:04] <Zakim> +fantasai
  84. # [18:04] <Zakim> + +1.650.275.aaaa
  85. # [18:04] * Joins: smfr (smfr@17.203.14.12)
  86. # [18:04] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  87. # [18:04] <arronei> zakim, microsoft is me
  88. # [18:04] <Zakim> +arronei; got it
  89. # [18:04] <bradk> zakim, aaaa is me
  90. # [18:04] <Zakim> +bradk; got it
  91. # [18:05] * sylvaing no wonder bank re-capitalization is so hard
  92. # [18:05] * JohnJan slaps arronei around a bit with a large fishbot
  93. # [18:05] <Zakim> +smfr
  94. # [18:05] * sylvaing JohnJan-> management material
  95. # [18:06] <Zakim> +??P44
  96. # [18:06] <kojiishi> zakim, ??p44 is me
  97. # [18:06] <Zakim> +kojiishi; got it
  98. # [18:06] * bradk shouldn't that be "Re-Capitalization"?
  99. # [18:07] <Zakim> +Bert
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  101. # [18:07] <Zakim> -fantasai
  102. # [18:07] * sylvaing bradk your column-width is too narrow to answer
  103. # [18:07] <Zakim> +[Apple]
  104. # [18:08] * Joins: r12a (rishida@128.30.52.169)
  105. # [18:08] <Zakim> +fantasai
  106. # [18:08] * Bert wodners what happened to the fashion to UppercasE all FirsT and LasT letters.
  107. # [18:09] * sylvaing Bert it probably moved to GCPM
  108. # [18:09] * Bert :-)
  109. # [18:09] <Bert> Scribe: bert
  110. # [18:10] <Bert> Scribenick: bert
  111. # [18:10] <Bert> Chair: Peter
  112. # [18:10] <Bert> Topic: 1. CSS2.1 Issues / Test Status Update
  113. # [18:10] * Joins: johnjan_ (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  114. # [18:10] * Joins: hober (ted@174.143.153.77)
  115. # [18:10] <johnjan_> zakim, microsoft is johnjan
  116. # [18:10] <Zakim> sorry, johnjan_, I do not recognize a party named 'microsoft'
  117. # [18:11] <Bert> PL: Looking for data on block tests. Nothing happened there?
  118. # [18:11] <Bert> ... We need to get this finished. My deadline is the ftf.
  119. # [18:11] <Bert> SG: Can we talk at the ftf?
  120. # [18:12] * Quits: johnjan_ (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
  121. # [18:12] <Bert> PL: Wrap-up beforehand would be perfect, otherwise at ftf.
  122. # [18:13] <hober> zakim, [Apple] has hober
  123. # [18:13] <Zakim> +hober; got it
  124. # [18:13] <Bert> PL: Issue 205?
  125. # [18:14] <plinss> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Sep/0074.html
  126. # [18:14] * sylvaing 's pea brain just takes a while to load up issue-60 context
  127. # [18:14] <Bert> EE: Can we postpone for a few minutes? Need my computer...
  128. # [18:15] * dsinger zakim, who is on the phone?
  129. # [18:15] * Zakim sees on the phone: dsinger (muted), johnjan, plinss, David_Baron, [Microsoft.a], bradk, arronei, smfr, kojiishi, Bert, [Apple], fantasai
  130. # [18:15] * Zakim johnjan has sylvaing
  131. # [18:15] * Zakim [Apple] has hober
  132. # [18:15] <Bert> PL: Issue 207?
  133. # [18:15] * Joins: dsinger_ (dsinger@67.218.107.136)
  134. # [18:15] <Bert> EE: Not looked at margin collapsing yet. Sent a proposal on some other issue.
  135. # [18:16] <Bert> PL: Issue 214?
  136. # [18:16] <Bert> ... There is a proposed edit.
  137. # [18:17] <Bert> SG: Would any of the edits require test changes?
  138. # [18:17] <Bert> PL: I think the tests already changed.
  139. # [18:17] <Bert> EE: Don't think rthere is anything open anymore agaist the issues list.
  140. # [18:18] <plinss> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Feb/0528.html
  141. # [18:18] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@17.80.152.133) (Ping timeout)
  142. # [18:18] <Bert> AE: Didn't find any to change.
  143. # [18:18] * Quits: dsinger_ (dsinger@67.218.107.136) (Ping timeout)
  144. # [18:19] <Bert> PL: Accept edits for 214?
  145. # [18:19] <dbaron> (which is the URL plinss pasted above)
  146. # [18:19] <Zakim> -fantasai
  147. # [18:20] <Zakim> +fantasai
  148. # [18:20] <Bert> RESOLVED: edit for 214 accepted.
  149. # [18:22] <Bert> BB: I have made a raw list of comments sent to www-style. Anybody interested in it?
  150. # [18:22] <Bert> EE: Can you add them to the wiki?
  151. # [18:23] <Bert> PL: The other issues on CSS 2.1 are also on the wiki.
  152. # [18:23] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@17.197.32.11)
  153. # [18:23] <Bert> BB: I find the wiki not really handy. hard to edit and not easy to see which issues are open and closed.
  154. # [18:24] <Bert> PL: Let's not switch tools for now.
  155. # [18:24] <Bert> SG: What needs to be done for next week in the tests?
  156. # [18:24] <Zakim> +[Apple.a]
  157. # [18:24] <dsinger> zakim, [apple.a] has dsinger
  158. # [18:24] <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
  159. # [18:25] * TabAtkins Argh, jeez, dunno what I was doing. I'm coming to the meeting now.
  160. # [18:25] <Zakim> -dsinger
  161. # [18:25] <Bert> ... is there page that lists what remains to be done?
  162. # [18:25] <Bert> JJ: Should be on the two links given in the agenda.
  163. # [18:25] <Bert> SG: A single wiki page would be handy.
  164. # [18:26] <Bert> PL: It seems a few issues are complex enough that we need the ftf for them.
  165. # [18:26] <Bert> ... But mostly we are waiting for enough implementations.
  166. # [18:27] <Bert> JJ: What does that mean for CSS 2.1? Will CSS 2.1 just sit there until a suitable beta is published?
  167. # [18:27] <Bert> PL: In theory, yes.
  168. # [18:27] <Bert> ... We can change the spec if necessary.
  169. # [18:28] <Bert> SG: Are we planning to add any test cases for currently open issues?
  170. # [18:28] <Bert> PL: That was not my intention. I thimk we decided to close the test suite some time ago.
  171. # [18:28] <Bert> ... We will have errata, a snapshot of the testsuite, and keep editing it. No additional tests.
  172. # [18:29] <Bert> ... Maybe just if we have a substantive change with absolutely not coverage in the test suite...
  173. # [18:29] * Joins: TabAtkins_ (tabatkins@216.239.45.4)
  174. # [18:29] <Bert> Topic: 2. March F2F
  175. # [18:30] <Zakim> +TabAtkins_
  176. # [18:30] <Bert> PL: There is a wiki page for the agenda.
  177. # [18:30] <dbaron> http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/mountain-view-2011
  178. # [18:30] <dbaron> http://www.w3.org/Style/Group/2011/MountainView
  179. # [18:30] <Bert> SG: We have some extra MS people coming for layout/grid stuff.
  180. # [18:30] <Bert> PL: A new member from Adobe as well. Interested in "regions" and flowing text between them.
  181. # [18:31] <Bert> ... I'm hoping they can attend.
  182. # [18:31] <Bert> TA: Google Chrome also will have a meeting on layout.
  183. # [18:31] <Bert> ... They may not be at the ftf itself, but I will be at both meetings.
  184. # [18:33] <Bert> SF: We're also interested in flow regions from Adobe.
  185. # [18:33] <Bert> PL: Overlap with templates and other things. Good opp. for synergy.
  186. # [18:33] <Bert> ... Please post other agenda items on wiki.
  187. # [18:34] <Bert> EE: Some css3-text issues. Please raise any other issues soon. Before April.
  188. # [18:35] <Bert> ... With Koji trying to resolve all known issues. But expecting more than one Last Call anyway.
  189. # [18:36] <Bert> ... There are still open issues we know about. But please mention any others soon.
  190. # [18:36] <Bert> SG: Tuesday would be good for layout, regions and related. So the extra MS people can come that day.
  191. # [18:36] <Bert> PL: Can you mention on the wiki what issues you like grouped?
  192. # [18:37] <Bert> ... Then we can do agenda planning.
  193. # [18:37] <Bert> Topic: 3. Tokyo F2F / Workshop
  194. # [18:37] <Bert> PL: Some discussion about a workhop.
  195. # [18:37] <Bert> TA: Good idea, as said on the thread. Some sort of impromptu meeting.
  196. # [18:38] <Bert> KI: Some informal forum is preferred.
  197. # [18:38] * dsinger zakim, who is making noise?
  198. # [18:38] * Zakim dsinger, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: kojiishi (47%), Bert (35%)
  199. # [18:39] <Bert> BB: Agreed. We don't have a sponsor for a costly event.
  200. # [18:39] <Bert> PL: Where would this be?
  201. # [18:39] <Bert> KI: So should I respond that we prefer some sort of informal forum?
  202. # [18:40] <Bert> PL: yes, that sounds good.
  203. # [18:40] <Bert> ... I'm only available *before* our ftf, not after.
  204. # [18:40] <Bert> ... May 30 or 31 is possible.
  205. # [18:40] <Bert> KI: Maybe I can ask for vote?
  206. # [18:40] <Bert> ... I think EE preferred after the ftf?
  207. # [18:41] <Bert> BB: Slight pref for before, but can probably make after as well.
  208. # [18:41] <Bert> DB: It depends on what flights I can find.
  209. # [18:42] <Bert> TA: I already have my flights and can be there after. Otherwise have to rebook.
  210. # [18:42] <Bert> SG: Prefer before.
  211. # [18:42] * dsinger deeply regrets that I have a meeting conflict (next f2f) and vacation conflict (tokyo), will miss you guys...
  212. # [18:42] * fantasai is unavailable to depart the US until May 29 afternoon
  213. # [18:42] <Bert> PL: Seems it's about 50-50...
  214. # [18:43] <Bert> ... Our ftf dates are firm. I guess.
  215. # [18:43] <Bert> TA: yes, as I said, I already booked my flight...
  216. # [18:43] <Bert> PL: Koji, any idea when we can know when and where?
  217. # [18:44] <Bert> KI: Date is up to us. The place I can ask around. Probably Keio, maybe also NTT. I'm not so worried about that.
  218. # [18:44] <Bert> ... How do we decide the date as soon as possible?
  219. # [18:44] <Bert> EE: Wiki?
  220. # [18:45] <Bert> PL: We can at leats start a wiki to collect ideas for the contents.
  221. # [18:45] <Bert> PL: We can give peopel a week and decide the date next week .
  222. # [18:46] <Bert> ... who would be attenbding, apart from us?
  223. # [18:46] <Bert> KI: Some people who want to meet us. And it depends on the topics.
  224. # [18:46] <Bert> ... EPUB people also.
  225. # [18:46] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/tokyo-workshop-2011
  226. # [18:46] <Bert> ... We can put that on the wiki, too.
  227. # [18:47] <Bert> SG: Yes, I'm interested in the constrants of japanese designers.
  228. # [18:47] <Bert> s/constrants/constraints/
  229. # [18:47] * bradk probably can't afford to go (all personal expense).
  230. # [18:47] <Bert> Topic: 4. List-style-image
  231. # [18:47] <plinss> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2011JanMar/0193.html
  232. # [18:48] <dbaron> I think there's a slight wording issue: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Feb/0674.html ... but otherwise it seems fine
  233. # [18:49] <Bert> TA: If you have an image with no ratio but a width and no height, the rules force the ratio to 1:1.
  234. # [18:49] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-224
  235. # [18:49] <Bert> ... Such an image is difficult to make, so I don't expect anything to break if list style images use the rules for images instead.
  236. # [18:50] <Bert> ... We also don't have tests for it.
  237. # [18:50] <Bert> ... Some browsers are quite close to my suggested rule.
  238. # [18:50] <Bert> ... Another issue is making the wording easier.
  239. # [18:50] <Bert> ... DB had some suggestions.
  240. # [18:51] <Bert> DB: There is something else: you leave some undefined cases, where no rules apply.
  241. # [18:51] <Bert> TA: Ah, you're right.
  242. # [18:51] <Bert> ... Will fix that.
  243. # [18:52] <Bert> ... Chrome and Opera handle such images, Opera does it like I propose. Chrome not exaxtly but close.
  244. # [18:52] <Bert> SG: Do you have the test case?
  245. # [18:53] <Bert> TA: looking...
  246. # [18:53] <TabAtkins_> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Feb/0364.html
  247. # [18:53] <Bert> s/exaxtly/exactly/
  248. # [18:54] <Bert> TA: IE9 does what the spec says now.
  249. # [18:54] <Bert> ... So I'm asking IE to change.
  250. # [18:54] <Bert> SG: So apparently the spec can be implemented.
  251. # [18:54] <Bert> TA: Yes, but it is inconsistent with images in other places.
  252. # [18:55] <Bert> SG: Do you know of a use case?
  253. # [18:55] <Bert> TA: Such images seem weird to me.
  254. # [18:55] <Bert> EE: Yes, I think we just spec'ed that for completeness.
  255. # [18:55] <Bert> SG: Are there any testcases for this now?
  256. # [18:56] <Bert> TA: Now, there aren't.
  257. # [18:56] * Quits: karl (karlcow@128.30.54.58) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  258. # [18:56] <Bert> SG: Do we need to add some?
  259. # [18:56] <Bert> TA: We have one impl., Opera, that does it. So we don't have two impls. yet.
  260. # [18:57] <Bert> SG: We have one impl. for the current spec, too.
  261. # [18:57] <Bert> ... Should we add a test case at all?
  262. # [18:57] <Bert> ... Should the edit be in CSS3 instead?
  263. # [18:58] <Bert> EE: CSS2 and 3 cannot contradict each other, 3 can only be more precise.
  264. # [18:59] <Bert> DB: I think we can make the change and add the tests to the pool of tests to add *after* the PR test snapshot.
  265. # [18:59] <JohnJan> * agree with DB
  266. # [19:00] <Bert> BK: Do we make it undefined, or make your change?
  267. # [19:00] <Bert> TA: I propose to make the actual change.
  268. # [19:01] <Bert> DB: We can add tests after PR, they improve interop, but do not invalidate the PR.
  269. # [19:01] <Bert> PL: I think we can accept the edit for the CSS 2.1 errata.
  270. # [19:02] <Bert> BB: But we don't have errata, we have a WD currently.
  271. # [19:02] <Bert> PL: yes, but we will have errata later.
  272. # [19:02] <Bert> EE: I don't think we should postpone the edit.
  273. # [19:03] <Bert> PL: Conditionally accept?
  274. # [19:03] <Bert> EE: Yes, but want to review proposed tests first.
  275. # [19:03] <Bert> BB: OK with me.
  276. # [19:03] <Bert> BK: OK
  277. # [19:03] <Bert> SF: OK
  278. # [19:04] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
  279. # [19:04] <Zakim> -smfr
  280. # [19:04] <Zakim> -David_Baron
  281. # [19:04] <Zakim> -TabAtkins_
  282. # [19:04] <Zakim> -johnjan
  283. # [19:04] <Zakim> -arronei
  284. # [19:04] <Zakim> -plinss
  285. # [19:04] * Quits: bradk (bradk@99.7.175.117) (Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/ )
  286. # [19:04] <Zakim> -kojiishi
  287. # [19:04] <Zakim> -fantasai
  288. # [19:04] * dsinger says bYe
  289. # [19:04] <Zakim> -[Apple]
  290. # [19:04] <Bert> RESOLVED: conditinally accept Tab's edit on list-style-image size, pending review of tests by Elika.
  291. # [19:04] <Zakim> -[Apple.a]
  292. # [19:04] <Zakim> -bradk
  293. # [19:04] <Zakim> -Bert
  294. # [19:04] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  295. # [19:04] <Zakim> Attendees were dsinger, plinss, sylvaing, David_Baron, johnjan, fantasai, +1.650.275.aaaa, arronei, bradk, smfr, kojiishi, Bert, hober, [Apple], TabAtkins_
  296. # [19:06] * Quits: oyvind (oyvinds@213.236.208.22) (Quit: oyvind)
  297. # [19:06] * Quits: JohnJan (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
  298. # [19:08] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.80) (Quit: sylvaing)
  299. # [19:12] * Quits: kojiishi (kojiishi@222.158.227.129) (Quit: Leaving...)
  300. # [19:13] * Parts: smfr (smfr@17.203.14.12)
  301. # [20:11] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@98.234.51.190) (Ping timeout)
  302. # [20:16] * Quits: arronei (arronei@131.107.0.103) (Quit: arronei)
  303. # [20:36] * Joins: arronei (arronei@131.107.0.106)
  304. # [20:39] * Quits: arronei (arronei@131.107.0.106) (Quit: arronei)
  305. # [20:45] * Joins: arronei (arronei@131.107.0.85)
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  307. # [20:49] * Quits: arronei (arronei@131.107.0.85) (Quit: arronei)
  308. # [20:53] * Joins: arronei (arronei@131.107.0.69)
  309. # [21:03] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  310. # [21:03] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.169)
  311. # [21:04] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.240) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  312. # [21:08] * Quits: ZeoGen (zeogen@70.184.152.155) (Ping timeout)
  313. # [21:11] * Quits: TabAtkins_ (tabatkins@216.239.45.4) (Ping timeout)
  314. # [21:11] * Joins: ZeoGen (zeogen@70.184.152.155)
  315. # [21:44] * Quits: ZeoGen (zeogen@70.184.152.155) (Ping timeout)
  316. # [22:10] * Quits: arronei (arronei@131.107.0.69) (Quit: arronei)
  317. # [22:14] * Joins: arronei (arronei@131.107.0.98)
  318. # [22:15] * Joins: ZeoGen (zeogen@70.165.16.5)
  319. # [22:45] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.240)
  320. # [22:52] * Quits: Ms2ger (Ms2ger@91.181.206.53) (Quit: nn)
  321. # [22:52] * Quits: hober (ted@174.143.153.77) (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs))
  322. # [23:05] * Quits: miketaylr (miketaylr@206.217.92.186) (Quit: miketaylr)
  323. # [23:30] * Joins: TabAtkins_ (tabatkins@216.239.45.4)
  324. # [23:38] * Quits: r12a (rishida@128.30.52.169) (Quit: r12a)
  325. # [23:43] * Quits: szilles (chatzilla@128.31.33.121) (Ping timeout)
  326. # [23:46] * Quits: Martijnc (Martijnc@91.176.19.134) (Quit: Martijnc)
  327. # Session Close: Thu Feb 24 00:00:00 2011

The end :)