/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2011-02-25 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Feb 25 00:00:00 2011
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  60. # [22:54] <TabAtkins> SVG! shepazu! I SUMMON THEE!
  61. # [22:55] <shepazu> You have 3 wishes, O Master.
  62. # [22:55] <shepazu> But choose... wisely...
  63. # [22:55] <TabAtkins> Dammit, just accidentally killed what I was writing. Starting again...
  64. # [22:55] <TabAtkins> In http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/master/coords.html#IntrinsicSizing...
  65. # [22:55] <TabAtkins> It says that percentage values on width/height "indicate the portion of the viewport that is actually covered by image data."
  66. # [22:56] <TabAtkins> What does that mean? I need to know if any of the browsers are doing the correct thing on a testcase.
  67. # [22:57] <TabAtkins> I understand that percentage values don't produce an intrinsic value, so you just negotiate with the embedding context for that, but then SVG uses the percentage somehow to draw itself.
  68. # [22:57] <shepazu> right
  69. # [22:57] <shepazu> let me rephrase that bit, to see if it helps
  70. # [22:58] <shepazu> [[
  71. # [22:58] <shepazu> Specifically, percentage values do not provide an intrinsic width or height, and do not indicate a percentage of the containing block. Rather, once the viewport is established, they indicate the portion of the viewport that is actually covered by image data.
  72. # [22:58] <shepazu> ]]
  73. # [22:58] <shepazu> oops
  74. # [22:58] <shepazu> [[
  75. # [22:58] <TabAtkins> Yes, so, what does that mean for, say, this document:
  76. # [22:59] <TabAtkins> http://css-class.com/test/svg/ellipse/intrinsic75p.svg
  77. # [22:59] <TabAtkins> Should the ellipse be drawn smaller than it would be without width/height specified?
  78. # [23:00] <shepazu> does "Specifically, percentage values do not provide an intrinsic width or height, and do not indicate a percentage of the containing block, but instead, percentage values indicate the portion of the established viewport that is covered by image data." help?
  79. # [23:00] <TabAtkins> No. "Covered by image data" could mean clipping or scaling or I dunno.
  80. # [23:00] <TabAtkins> What's the effect on the coordinate space, is what I'm asking.
  81. # [23:00] <TabAtkins> I guess.
  82. # [23:01] <TabAtkins> This is in the context of http://css-class.com/test/svg/list-marker2.htm
  83. # [23:02] * shepazu looks at example
  84. # [23:02] <TabAtkins> Where the size negotiation gives the <svg> a size of 1em by 1em.
  85. # [23:02] <TabAtkins> But then I dunno how big the ellipse should be drawn inside that box.
  86. # [23:04] <shepazu> ok, in that case, the SVG image should be 75% of 1em (so, 0.75em), and the ellipse should be 45% of that (so, ~0.34em)
  87. # [23:05] <TabAtkins> Okay, so the <svg> itself is 1em by 1em, per the size negotiation rules, but then there's some (underspecified) transformation of the viewport such that an ellipse filling 90% instead fills 75%*90%?
  88. # [23:06] <shepazu> and its position within that area is determined by the minmaxmeet stuff
  89. # [23:06] <shepazu> sorry, my math was bad
  90. # [23:07] * Quits: miketaylr (miketaylr@206.217.92.186) (Quit: miketaylr)
  91. # [23:07] <shepazu> yes, it's 90%, not 45%
  92. # [23:07] <shepazu> what's the "underspecified" part?
  93. # [23:07] <TabAtkins> There's just that one sentence talking about "covered by image data", but apparently this is actually a transformation fo the viewport's coordinate system.
  94. # [23:11] <shepazu> that's an interesting way of looking at it
  95. # [23:11] <TabAtkins> Isn't it the only way to look at it? How were you looking at it?
  96. # [23:12] <shepazu> we could rephase it that way
  97. # [23:12] <shepazu> well, it's not actually a transform, per se
  98. # [23:12] <shepazu> but maybe it should be defined that way if it makes it clearer
  99. # [23:12] <shepazu> and maybe the distinction isnt worth making
  100. # [23:12] <TabAtkins> Given that the current definition doesn't actually say what they do, yeah, it would be clearer. ^_^
  101. # [23:13] <shepazu> I can raise this at the SVG WG f2f next week
  102. # [23:13] <TabAtkins> Should I send an email?
  103. # [23:13] <shepazu> TabAtkins: that would be very helpful
  104. # [23:14] <TabAtkins> K, will do so in a few minutes.
  105. # [23:14] <shepazu> thanks very much
  106. # [23:14] <shepazu> I'll make sure we address that in SVG 1.1 SE
  107. # [23:14] <TabAtkins> Hm, does viewBox have a lacuna value?
  108. # [23:15] <shepazu> not really
  109. # [23:15] <shepazu> I don't think
  110. # [23:15] <TabAtkins> When it's omitted, the base coordinate system is pixels, right?
  111. # [23:15] <TabAtkins> (with percentages relative to the width/height of the viewport)
  112. # [23:16] <shepazu> right
  113. # [23:16] <TabAtkins> K, just making sure.
  114. # [23:17] <shepazu> TabAtkins: you might look at this issue I raised for SVG 2, which I think would be more straightforward, but which the SVG WG in general doesn't like http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2378
  115. # [23:18] <TabAtkins> If I use an percentage value for width/height, like the 75% one above, can I still draw outside of the .75em square? Or are things clipped outside the square?
  116. # [23:18] <TabAtkins> I presume the former.
  117. # [23:19] <shepazu> TabAtkins: you have to make sure that overflow is visible, but yes
  118. # [23:20] <TabAtkins> Hm, can you elaborate? Only the coordinate system is shrunk, not the <svg> element itself.
  119. # [23:20] <TabAtkins> So overflow shouldn't have any effect on things drawing outside of the .75em square but within the 1em square.
  120. # [23:22] <shepazu> TabAtkins: you could still clip to the established area of the SVG root, which is .75em
  121. # [23:22] <shepazu> (I think overflow=visible by default)
  122. # [23:22] <TabAtkins> What is the "established area"? The actual size of the <svg> is 1em.
  123. # [23:23] <shepazu> no, the actual size of the SVG image is 1 em, the <svg> container is .75em
  124. # [23:23] <TabAtkins> Hm, okay. I didn't realize there was a concept of a higher-level box.
  125. # [23:24] <shepazu> it's an infinite canvas extending beyond the immediate viewport
  126. # [23:24] <shepazu> in all directions
  127. # [23:24] <TabAtkins> Okay, makes sense. That makes your previous comments more sensical, then.
  128. # [23:24] <shepazu> how gracious of you :)
  129. # [23:25] <TabAtkins> So, absolute sizes on the <svg> give the image some intrinsic dimensions, *and* size the <svg> inside of the image. Percentage values only do the latter.
  130. # [23:25] <TabAtkins> This is sensical, it just needs to be explained better.
  131. # [23:26] <shepazu> s/sensical/sensible/ :)
  132. # [23:26] <TabAtkins> sensical as in it makes sense.
  133. # [23:26] <TabAtkins> Though I guess sensible means that, too...
  134. # [23:26] <TabAtkins> Well, no, sensible means that it's a good idea.
  135. # [23:26] <shepazu> yup... and sensical is not a word
  136. # [23:26] <TabAtkins> Anyway! Got another thing I wanna run by you real quick.
  137. # [23:27] <shepazu> you have 2 more wishes
  138. # [23:27] <TabAtkins> Sure it is. It's well-formed by English production rules.
  139. # [23:27] <shepazu> true enough
  140. # [23:27] <TabAtkins> So, SVG when used in <img> and similar contexts is crippled in incompatible ways by different browsers in order to make it act something like a static image, not a full-blown application.
  141. # [23:28] <TabAtkins> I think it would be nice (and want to start later this year) to define an Image Profile for SVG, which defines precisely what abilities to shut off when using SVG in an image context rather than a full embedding context.
  142. # [23:28] <TabAtkins> Things like turning off script, cross-doc <use>, etc.
  143. # [23:29] <shepazu> TabAtkins: http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/integration/SVGIntegration.html
  144. # [23:29] <shepazu> that's a big priority over the next 6 months
  145. # [23:30] <TabAtkins> Ah, looks great.
  146. # [23:30] <shepazu> you have one more wish
  147. # [23:30] <TabAtkins> "secure animating mode" seems like what I was planning to define.
  148. # [23:30] <TabAtkins> That's all I have for now. ^_^
  149. # [23:32] <shepazu> "That's all I have for now." is your final wish... *poof* you are dead, and removed from existence
  150. # [23:33] <TabAtkins> Ah, wait, you don't have a switch to turn off foreignObject.
  151. # [23:36] <TabAtkins> I'd like to be able to avoid rendering HTML at all.
  152. # [23:38] <hober> how does one go about registering for the f2f?
  153. # [23:38] <TabAtkins> You don't, if you're a member. Just indicate that you're coming so meal planning goes right.
  154. # [23:38] <TabAtkins> Since dbaron's organizing, tell him.
  155. # [23:38] <hober> dbaron: ^^^
  156. # [23:38] <hober> :)
  157. # [23:39] <dbaron> hober, http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/32061/css-ftf-mar-2011/
  158. # [23:40] <TabAtkins> Oh, I lied.
  159. # [23:40] <TabAtkins> NEVER MIND ME
  160. # [23:40] <hober> Any objection to me adding a link to that on http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/mountain-view-2011 ?
  161. # [23:41] <dbaron> hober, yes
  162. # [23:41] <hober> ok then
  163. # [23:41] <dbaron> hober, main page for the meeting is http://www.w3.org/Style/Group/2011/MountainView
  164. # [23:41] <dbaron> hober, if anything, mountain-view-2011 should link back to that
  165. # [23:45] <TabAtkins> Urgh, where is the 2.1 WD located?
  166. # [23:46] <TabAtkins> Can't find it anywhere on the group page.
  167. # [23:47] <dbaron> hober, link added
  168. # [23:49] <hober> thanks
  169. # [23:57] <shepazu> TabAtkins: so, you want a mode where only SVG content renders, no HTML or foreignObject content? We could do that, but we are actually thinking of removing the need for <foreignContent>, so we'd need to frame the mode differently
  170. # [23:57] <shepazu> you should send an email to www-svg about it, with your use cases
  171. # [23:58] <TabAtkins> shepazu: kk, will do.
  172. # Session Close: Sat Feb 26 00:00:00 2011

The end :)