/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2011-04-13 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Apr 13 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  15. # [02:50] <szilles> Hi!
  16. # [02:52] <szilles> Zakim, who is talking?
  17. # [02:59] <TabAtkins> szilles: ?_? Zakim's not in the room?
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  84. # [17:45] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/04/13-css-irc
  85. # [17:45] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
  86. # [17:45] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 18 minutes
  87. # [17:45] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
  88. # [17:45] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
  89. # [17:46] * glazou waves at vhardy
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  92. # [17:59] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  93. # [17:59] <Zakim> + +1.858.216.aaaa
  94. # [17:59] <plinss> zakim, aaaa is me
  95. # [17:59] <Zakim> +plinss; got it
  96. # [18:00] * Ms2ger congratulates the CSSWG on releasing CSS2.1
  97. # [18:02] * plinss thank you
  98. # [18:02] * Joins: TabAtkins_ (tabatkins@216.239.45.4)
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  103. # [18:02] <Zakim> +??P18
  104. # [18:02] <glazou> Zakim, ??P18 isme
  105. # [18:02] <Zakim> I don't understand '??P18 isme', glazou
  106. # [18:02] <Zakim> + +1.650.214.aabb
  107. # [18:02] <glazou> Zakim, ??P18 is me
  108. # [18:03] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
  109. # [18:03] * Joins: johnjan (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  110. # [18:03] <glazou> thanks Ms2ger
  111. # [18:03] <TabAtkins_> Zakim, aabb is me
  112. # [18:03] <Zakim> +TabAtkins_; got it
  113. # [18:03] * Joins: bradk (bradk@99.7.175.117)
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  116. # [18:03] <Zakim> + +1.619.846.aacc
  117. # [18:03] <Zakim> + +1.425.707.aadd
  118. # [18:03] <johnjan> Zakim, Microsoft is johnjan
  119. # [18:03] <Zakim> sorry, johnjan, I do not recognize a party named 'Microsoft'
  120. # [18:04] <Zakim> +Bert
  121. # [18:04] <hober> Zakim, +1.619.846.aacc is me
  122. # [18:04] <Zakim> +hober; got it
  123. # [18:04] <gsnedders> Regrets, am about to run away now.
  124. # [18:04] <Zakim> + +1.650.275.aaee
  125. # [18:04] <Zakim> +David_Baron
  126. # [18:04] <gsnedders> (Sorry for being so last minute, but I was expecting to make it)
  127. # [18:04] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  128. # [18:04] <arronei_> zakim, microsoft has me
  129. # [18:04] <Zakim> +arronei_; got it
  130. # [18:04] <glazou> Zakim, why don't you recognize old friends of the spec?
  131. # [18:04] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, glazou.
  132. # [18:04] <johnjan> zakim, microsoft has me
  133. # [18:04] <Zakim> +johnjan; got it
  134. # [18:04] <Zakim> +??P36
  135. # [18:05] <bradk> zakim, aaee is me
  136. # [18:05] <Zakim> +bradk; got it
  137. # [18:05] <kojiishi> zakim, ??P36 is me
  138. # [18:05] <Zakim> +kojiishi; got it
  139. # [18:05] * Joins: Cathy (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  140. # [18:05] <Zakim> +??P35
  141. # [18:05] * Joins: smfr (smfr@173.228.90.67)
  142. # [18:05] <Zakim> -kojiishi
  143. # [18:05] <bradk> zalim has altzheimers
  144. # [18:06] <Zakim> +??P30
  145. # [18:06] <jdaggett> zakim, ??P35 is me
  146. # [18:06] <Zakim> +jdaggett; got it
  147. # [18:06] <kojiishi> zakim, ??P30 is me
  148. # [18:06] <Zakim> +kojiishi; got it
  149. # [18:06] <Zakim> + +1.206.675.aaff
  150. # [18:06] <Zakim> + +1.408.636.aagg
  151. # [18:06] <Zakim> +??P43
  152. # [18:06] <smfr> Zakim, aagg is me
  153. # [18:06] <glazou> Zakim, who is on the phone ?
  154. # [18:06] <plinss> zakim, aadd is johnjan
  155. # [18:06] <Zakim> +smfr; got it
  156. # [18:06] * hober will have to drop off the call in 30 minutes, but will remain on IRC
  157. # [18:06] <Zakim> On the phone I see plinss, glazou, TabAtkins_, hober, +1.425.707.aadd, Bert, bradk, David_Baron, [Microsoft], jdaggett, kojiishi, +1.206.675.aaff, smfr, ??P43
  158. # [18:06] <danielweck> Zakim, ??P43 is me
  159. # [18:06] <stearns> Zakim, aaff is me
  160. # [18:06] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has johnjan
  161. # [18:07] <Zakim> +johnjan; got it
  162. # [18:07] <Zakim> +danielweck; got it
  163. # [18:07] <Zakim> +stearns; got it
  164. # [18:07] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  165. # [18:07] <glazou> Zakim, aaff is stearns
  166. # [18:07] <Zakim> sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named 'aaff'
  167. # [18:07] <dbaron> Zakim, who is on the phone?
  168. # [18:07] <Zakim> On the phone I see plinss, glazou, TabAtkins_, hober, johnjan, Bert, bradk, David_Baron, [Microsoft], jdaggett, kojiishi, stearns, smfr, danielweck, [IPcaller]
  169. # [18:07] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has johnjan
  170. # [18:07] <Bert> infobot, area code 206?
  171. # [18:07] <Zakim> +??P13
  172. # [18:07] <vhardy> IPCaller is vhardy
  173. # [18:08] <dbaron> Zakim, ??P13 is fantasai
  174. # [18:08] <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
  175. # [18:08] * Bert wrong window
  176. # [18:08] <glazou> Zakim, [IPcaller] has vhardy
  177. # [18:08] <Zakim> +vhardy; got it
  178. # [18:08] <Zakim> +SteveZ
  179. # [18:08] <TabAtkins_> ScribeNick: TabAtkins_
  180. # [18:08] <TabAtkins_> plinss: Any last-minute additions?
  181. # [18:08] <TabAtkins_> kojiishi: Can I talk about epub response?
  182. # [18:09] <TabAtkins_> plinss: Sure.
  183. # [18:09] <Zakim> + +1.206.324.aahh
  184. # [18:09] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@98.232.9.174)
  185. # [18:09] <TabAtkins_> plinss: There's nothing to discuss about 2.1 this week!
  186. # [18:09] <TabAtkins_> arronei_: Hey, we moved to PR.
  187. # [18:09] <TabAtkins_> plinss: Yes, the PR transition call went very well.
  188. # [18:10] <TabAtkins_> glazou: We'll probably make a tshirt for the occasion.
  189. # [18:10] <Bert> (Excellent work by Peter on PR telcon, especially explaining the tests!)
  190. # [18:10] * dbaron suspects the last caller to join was sylvaing
  191. # [18:10] * sylvaing dbaron, yes
  192. # [18:10] * dbaron Zakim, aahh is sylvaing
  193. # [18:10] * Zakim +sylvaing; got it
  194. # [18:10] <TabAtkins_> plinss: Elika wanted to talk about the website.
  195. # [18:10] <fantasai> http://csswg.inkedblade.net/staging/redesign/index-divya.html
  196. # [18:10] <Zakim> +cathy_
  197. # [18:11] * sylvaing thanks, couldn't see the bridge shorthand
  198. # [18:11] * Zakim sylvaing, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
  199. # [18:11] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
  200. # [18:11] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: fantasai (18%), glazou (5%)
  201. # [18:11] <bradk> If Elika is talking, we can't hear
  202. # [18:11] <fantasai> New website design
  203. # [18:12] <fantasai> from Divya Manian
  204. # [18:12] <fantasai> Based on structure from old design by Jason Cranford Teague and myself
  205. # [18:12] <Bert> I'd like to use the design, but it will take some work, because it was made for different mark-up.
  206. # [18:12] <fantasai> Do we want to adopt this design?
  207. # [18:12] <smfr> there's a missing image after "News"
  208. # [18:12] <fantasai> I fixed the markup
  209. # [18:12] <Bert> I saw Elika already did some adaptation.
  210. # [18:13] <Zakim> + +1.415.832.aaii
  211. # [18:13] <TabAtkins_> glazou: My concern is still the legibility of the blue links in the blue header.
  212. # [18:13] <TabAtkins_> glazou: Other than that I think it's wonderful.
  213. # [18:13] <TabAtkins_> bradk: Same concern from me.
  214. # [18:13] <jdaggett> yeah, the dark blue links have poor legibility
  215. # [18:13] <fantasai> easy to fix, just suggest a color code :)
  216. # [18:13] <nimbupani> oh hai.
  217. # [18:13] <arno> zakim aaii is arno
  218. # [18:13] <fantasai> Overview and Current Work both list modules
  219. # [18:13] <TabAtkins_> glazou: Are we listing the modules somewhere, or is that under "current work"?
  220. # [18:14] <TabAtkins_> Bert: The structure isn't changing, just the markup/style.
  221. # [18:14] <fantasai> It's done
  222. # [18:14] <nimbupani> we could use aliceblue for the dark banner
  223. # [18:14] <fantasai> It only uses <time> element, which is ignorable
  224. # [18:14] <bradk> I sent a mockup suggestion picture, fantasai. Did you get it?
  225. # [18:14] <bradk> for the blue on blue issue
  226. # [18:14] <glazou> BUT IS IT NATIVE HTML5 ????
  227. # [18:14] * Joins: howcome (howcome@80.203.19.137)
  228. # [18:14] <TabAtkins_> plinss: So, consensus on adopting this for the site?
  229. # [18:14] <nimbupani> :)
  230. # [18:14] * Bert lol
  231. # [18:14] <TabAtkins_> RESOLVED: Accept the new site design.
  232. # [18:15] <TabAtkins_> plinss: Next topic, f2f.
  233. # [18:15] <kojiishi> http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/japan-2011-venues
  234. # [18:15] <TabAtkins_> kojiishi: I have a few candidates at this link.
  235. # [18:15] <TabAtkins_> kojiishi: The only good candidate is the Kyoto Research Park.
  236. # [18:15] * howcome can't join -- full?
  237. # [18:15] <TabAtkins_> kojiishi: Fujisawa-san from the SVGWG seems to be fine to do it there too.
  238. # [18:16] <TabAtkins_> jdaggett: That sounds good to me.
  239. # [18:16] <stearns> howcome - I will drop again for you :)
  240. # [18:16] <Zakim> -stearns
  241. # [18:16] * Joins: alexmog (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  242. # [18:16] <glazou> full again???
  243. # [18:17] <Zakim> + +47.21.65.aajj
  244. # [18:17] <glazou> Zakim, who is on the phone ?
  245. # [18:17] <Zakim> On the phone I see plinss, glazou, TabAtkins_, hober, johnjan, Bert, bradk, David_Baron, [Microsoft], jdaggett, kojiishi, smfr, danielweck, [IPcaller], fantasai, SteveZ, sylvaing,
  246. # [18:17] <Zakim> ... cathy_, +1.415.832.aaii, +47.21.65.aajj
  247. # [18:17] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has johnjan
  248. # [18:17] <Zakim> [IPcaller] has vhardy
  249. # [18:17] * howcome got it -- thanks sterans
  250. # [18:17] * dbaron Zakim, aajj is howcome
  251. # [18:17] * Zakim +howcome; got it
  252. # [18:17] <glazou> hmmm, we should already have more slots than that
  253. # [18:17] <glazou> thanks stearns
  254. # [18:17] <TabAtkins_> kojiishi: The kyoto reserach park currently has som econditions for the place.
  255. # [18:17] <glazou> stearns: can you try to rejoin, just to check if another slot is available ?
  256. # [18:17] <stearns> ok
  257. # [18:18] * alexmog is listening in @ Arron's office
  258. # [18:18] <TabAtkins_> kojiishi: The place has internet, but not wifi - we can bring a router.
  259. # [18:18] <TabAtkins_> kojiishi: Lunch delivery is available but there are other lunch options close by.
  260. # [18:18] <TabAtkins_> szilles: 5 mins walking distance from kyoto station, or the subway station?
  261. # [18:18] <sylvaing> not sure that was clear as the sound is bad on my end; Microsoft Japan can sponsor lunches and dinner if necessary. Google being the original host, it's up to them though
  262. # [18:18] <TabAtkins_> kojiishi: from the subway station - 1 stop from kyoto
  263. # [18:18] <stearns> "the conference is full"
  264. # [18:19] <glazou> stearns: sigh, sorry for that
  265. # [18:19] <TabAtkins_> plinss: This is where SVG will meet the following week?
  266. # [18:19] <TabAtkins_> kojiishi: Yeah, and they're considering having a joint meeting.
  267. # [18:19] <glazou> Bert: I thought Chris asked for more slots..
  268. # [18:19] * Quits: davve (davve@83.218.67.122) (Client exited)
  269. # [18:19] <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: Not sure what the progress is on that yet.
  270. # [18:19] * Bert knows chris asked, let me see if it was handled...
  271. # [18:20] <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: SVG is planning June 6-9, so starting on Monday.
  272. # [18:20] <TabAtkins_> jdaggett: I think they were maybe talking about coming on Saturday.
  273. # [18:20] * fantasai doesn't mind staying extra to Monday
  274. # [18:20] * Bert sees telcon has 25 slots now.
  275. # [18:21] * fantasai bert, it's full
  276. # [18:21] * dbaron http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2011AprJun/0068.html says telecon has 25 slots, but it's clearly still filling up at 20
  277. # [18:21] * Joins: boblet (boblet@125.174.9.153)
  278. # [18:21] <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: Google can still do dinner, but I'll have to check about lunches.
  279. # [18:21] <TabAtkins_> jdaggett: Who's coordinating the router?
  280. # [18:22] <TabAtkins_> kojiishi: ??? (I missed the name.)
  281. # [18:22] <TabAtkins_> jdaggett: So you'll coordinate with him?
  282. # [18:22] * Bert hmm... reserved for 25, only 20 on call, some bug somewhere. :-( I'll ask.
  283. # [18:22] <TabAtkins_> kojiishi: Yes.
  284. # [18:22] <kojiishi> http://buffalo.jp/products/catalog/network/wzr-hp-ag300h/
  285. # [18:22] <mihara> NTT will bring the router and projector.
  286. # [18:23] <TabAtkins_> kojiishi: So are we all fine with kyoto research park, or are we sticking with tokyo?
  287. # [18:23] <TabAtkins_> jdaggett: I think we should resolve on kyoto research park.
  288. # [18:24] <dbaron> KRP sounds good
  289. # [18:24] <TabAtkins_> [several] seems fine
  290. # [18:24] <TabAtkins_> plinss: Any issues with relocating the other workshop to Tokyo?
  291. # [18:24] <TabAtkins_> kojiishi: That's fine - we already have the place in KRP reserved on june 1st.
  292. # [18:25] <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: So wednesday for the workshop, and thu-fri-sat for the meeting, + sat for joint svg meeting.
  293. # [18:25] <Zakim> -cathy_
  294. # [18:26] <Zakim> +cathy_
  295. # [18:26] <TabAtkins_> RESOLVED: Relocate f2f to Kyoto.
  296. # [18:26] <kojiishi> http://epub-revision.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/build/spec/epub30-contentdocs.html#sec-css-profile
  297. # [18:27] <TabAtkins_> kojiishi: epub is curious is we're recommending that they use a prefix for properties that aren't in CR state.
  298. # [18:28] <TabAtkins_> smfr: From an impl perspective, *not* using prefixes is potentially dangerous. A browser may want to use the same rendering engine for both epub and webpages. If there are differences between an unprefixed epub property and a final unprefixed CSS property, this would cause a problem.
  299. # [18:28] <TabAtkins_> kojiishi: epub is willing to respond to changes in working drafts.
  300. # [18:28] <kojiishi> http://epub-revision.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/build/spec/epub30-contentdocs.html#sec-css
  301. # [18:28] <TabAtkins_> kojiishi: In section 3, there's a note...
  302. # [18:29] <TabAtkins_> kojiishi: ...about how this is still a work in progress and may change in incompatible ways.
  303. # [18:29] * sylvaing has a nagging suspicion smfr's scenario is not totally hypothetical...
  304. # [18:29] <TabAtkins_> smfr: Right, so that says that if an epub user uses an unprefixed property, the page may break when the reader is implemented.
  305. # [18:29] <TabAtkins_> smfr: It also means that the unprefixed property is exposed to arbitrary web content too.
  306. # [18:30] <fantasai> If you use prefixes, you are versioning anyway.
  307. # [18:30] <fantasai> Just a different trigger for versioning
  308. # [18:30] <fantasai> Having to support two different behaviors is a problem.
  309. # [18:30] <TabAtkins_> kojiishi: epubs have a version number, so you can key off that for the differing behavior if necessary.
  310. # [18:31] <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: Versioning has never worked on the web, unfortunately.
  311. # [18:31] <TabAtkins_> smfr: It would mean we have to support two version of the same thing, which we don't do right now. This becomes a huge implementation reader as time goes on.
  312. # [18:32] <TabAtkins_> kojiishi: Isn't the criteria the same, though? epub readers would have to support both prefixed and unprefixed properties.
  313. # [18:32] <TabAtkins_> smfr: We already have the situation where we'll have to support prefixed properties indefinitely. That's easier than having to handle two version of the property with different syntax/meaning.
  314. # [18:32] <Zakim> -fantasai
  315. # [18:33] <Zakim> +fantasai
  316. # [18:33] <TabAtkins_> plinss: I agree in general with the arguments for having a prefix.
  317. # [18:33] <TabAtkins_> smfr: Something with an epub prefix may have different behaviors between epub UAs.
  318. # [18:34] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: If epub spec tracks what we're doing, what behavior is being associated with the prefixed property? Behavior now, behavior a month from now, ...?
  319. # [18:34] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@98.232.9.174) (Quit: sylvaing)
  320. # [18:34] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: There's no clear description of what the behavior would be, so it just forks the spec.
  321. # [18:34] <TabAtkins_> smfr: It'll be whatever they expect.
  322. # [18:34] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@98.232.9.174)
  323. # [18:34] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  324. # [18:34] <TabAtkins_> smfr: They'll author in whatever UA they have around.
  325. # [18:35] <Zakim> -jdaggett
  326. # [18:35] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: It's not analogous - the author can have multiple UAs which have different behaviors under the same "-epub-" prefix.
  327. # [18:35] <Zakim> -hober
  328. # [18:36] * TabAtkins_ is slightly lost in the minutes. @_@
  329. # [18:36] <Zakim> -danielweck
  330. # [18:36] <Zakim> +??P0
  331. # [18:36] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: Any impl that wants to read epub will have to read epub syntax. That's just forking the spec, even if they have the same behavior between the two.
  332. # [18:36] <jdaggett> zakim, ??P0 is me
  333. # [18:36] <Zakim> +jdaggett; got it
  334. # [18:36] <Zakim> +hober
  335. # [18:36] <Zakim> +??P4
  336. # [18:37] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: I think we should just subset the properties we think are stable and finish the spec.
  337. # [18:37] <danielweck> Zakim, ??P4 is me
  338. # [18:37] <Zakim> +danielweck; got it
  339. # [18:37] <danielweck> (SIP drop)
  340. # [18:37] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: There's not much in the way of epub content out there when they release the spec.
  341. # [18:37] * Bert wonders what's going on with all the leave/join
  342. # [18:37] <TabAtkins_> jdaggett: The problem here is that authors will be using properties that aren't in CR.
  343. # [18:37] <TabAtkins_> jdaggett: If we use unprefixed properties, we're assuming that no differences in behavior will occur.
  344. # [18:38] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: let's suppose that moz decides to support epub content in 2 years.
  345. # [18:38] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: They'll have to parse all the epub properties, but they won't want two codepaths.
  346. # [18:38] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: So, for the most part, they can get away with this.
  347. # [18:38] <TabAtkins_> jdaggett: After a while, epub can publish a revised spec that includes unprefixed props once the specs are stable.
  348. # [18:39] <danielweck> Bert: I use the "Telephone" SIP app on Mac OS X, I use the free Ekiga VoIP service...I get dropped every 30 minutes.
  349. # [18:39] <TabAtkins_> smfr: Authors should use both vendor and unprefixed properties, like they do right now.
  350. # [18:39] <TabAtkins_> plinss: Assuming it hasn't changed.
  351. # [18:40] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: I don't understand how that's different from using unprefixed properties.
  352. # [18:40] <TabAtkins_> smfr: We won't be exposing the unprefixed property to the web at large.
  353. # [18:41] <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: So the compat problems are the same, but the overall web can't play with it and make it worse, just epub.
  354. # [18:41] <TabAtkins_> jdaggett: So the problem is that epub is trying to lock down things that aren't finished yet in the spec.
  355. # [18:42] * Quits: boblet (boblet@125.174.9.153) (Quit: boblet)
  356. # [18:42] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: Given the explanations, recommending that authors use both -epub- and unprefixed would work.
  357. # [18:43] <TabAtkins_> bradk: That still has compat problems, though.
  358. # [18:44] <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: A prefix lets you at least reference one version of a property.
  359. # [18:44] <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: Generally, we're not going to want multiple versions of a property. We want only one codepath.
  360. # [18:45] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: Some may be okay with different codepaths, but others aren't.
  361. # [18:46] <TabAtkins_> plinss: I think we should have epub reference a specific version, and guarantee that epub readers implement that specific version.
  362. # [18:46] * Joins: Martijnc (Martijnc@91.176.78.77)
  363. # [18:47] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: webkit won't want to specifically implement different versions of vertical text, for example.
  364. # [18:48] <fantasai> +1 to Tab
  365. # [18:48] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: Epub has decided that they want to track the spec, not freeze on a particular version.
  366. # [18:49] <TabAtkins_> plinss: That's fine. I think we should recommend they do the opposite.
  367. # [18:50] <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: I disagree. If we want to treat epub as part of the web, it's bad to have them snapshot, and it's a bad precedent for other new web-type technologies.
  368. # [18:50] <jdaggett> the bad precedent is basing new technologies on *WD* versions of specs
  369. # [18:50] <TabAtkins_> plinss: I think epub should fix on a revision, and set it with a version on themselves.
  370. # [18:51] <TabAtkins_> I agree, jdaggett, but it's an unfortunate consequence of the fact that we are *just now* addressing the typographic conventions of a significant percentage of the world.
  371. # [18:51] <TabAtkins_> plinss: How often is epub revving?
  372. # [18:51] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: I don't know.
  373. # [18:51] <kojiishi> http://epub-revision.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/build/spec/epub30-contentdocs.html#sec-overview-versioning
  374. # [18:52] <TabAtkins_> dbaron: I don't think they should snapshot if they want to track.
  375. # [18:52] <TabAtkins_> dbaron: Then we're just encouraging epub and web content to diverge.
  376. # [18:52] <fantasai> +1 to dbaron
  377. # [18:52] <TabAtkins_> dbaron: If the impls converge slowly enough that they don't have tons of interop before we reach CR, we're okay.
  378. # [18:54] <fantasai> dbaron: If they create testcases and drive interop to a snapshot, then they're encouraging a fork
  379. # [18:55] <jdaggett> "addressing the typographic conventions of a significant percentage of the world" == vertical text?
  380. # [18:55] <TabAtkins_> plinss: Things about the properties will change. They shouldn't be basing their impl on non-CR stuff.
  381. # [18:55] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: I think we should keep it fuzzy until we either decide that there's no need to fork, or a fork is imminent.
  382. # [18:56] <TabAtkins_> plinss: It would be ideal if nobody forked the spec.
  383. # [18:56] <Ms2ger> It would be ideal if these specs were in CR
  384. # [18:56] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: The solution you're advocating is more likely to lead to a fork.
  385. # [18:56] <TabAtkins_> plinss: yes, but we aren't forking, they are.
  386. # [18:57] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: By advocating they fork the spec, it's our responsibility. We're the ones forking things as well.
  387. # [18:57] <TabAtkins_> plinss: I'm saying that if epub wants to add a property that's not yet part of CSS, they should own the property themselves, so that when CSS defines the property it can be unprefixed across everyone.
  388. # [18:58] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: Then we have multiple implementations that have to support multiple behaviors, when it might not even be necessary.
  389. # [18:58] <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: We already do that, like webkit's stuff.
  390. # [18:58] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: And they want to avoid doing it more.
  391. # [18:59] <TabAtkins_> smfr: We are okay with maintaining multiple versions of simple things like gradients, but not core layout primities like vertical text.
  392. # [18:59] <fantasai> We have four minutes remaining.
  393. # [18:59] <TabAtkins_> smfr: We never want forked behavior for unprefixed properties.
  394. # [18:59] <TabAtkins_> plinss: I think I'm hearing consensus that they should prefix their properties.
  395. # [18:59] <TabAtkins_> [several]: yes
  396. # [19:00] <Bert> (Best might be to encourage them to make a version 3.0 without vertical, send their engineers to CSS to work on vertical, and make 3.1 half a year later.)
  397. # [19:00] <TabAtkins_> plinss: What I'm hearing dissent on is what the unprefixed version means.
  398. # [19:00] <fantasai> (Bert, that won't help anyone. What are their engineers going to do to help?)
  399. # [19:00] <fantasai> (We have to write the spec. It's unlikely that they can do that for us.)
  400. # [19:00] * TabAtkins_ missed what plinss just said.
  401. # [19:01] <TabAtkins_> plinss: Anything else on this topic?
  402. # [19:01] <Bert> (Elika, help you with tests and impl. reports?)
  403. # [19:01] <fantasai> plinss: They're their own working group. We can make recommendations. If they decide not to prefix, they don't prefix and the only thing we can do is get mad about it.
  404. # [19:01] <fantasai> (Yes, that would be great :)
  405. # [19:01] <TabAtkins_> jdaggett: Any resolution here?
  406. # [19:02] <dbaron> didn't plinss say "prefixed version" rather than "unprefixed version"? ("what the ... means", above)
  407. # [19:02] <TabAtkins_> plinss: No formal resolution yet. We're just in agreement that they should prefix properties that aren't in CR.
  408. # [19:02] <TabAtkins_> jdaggett: Is that our formal recommendation.
  409. # [19:02] <TabAtkins_> Yes, dbaron, typo on my part.
  410. # [19:03] <TabAtkins_> bradk: We could provide them with examples of spec that have changed drastically between WD and CR.
  411. # [19:03] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: They know that already.
  412. # [19:03] * Quits: johnjan (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
  413. # [19:04] <TabAtkins_> RESOLVED: Epub should use prefixed versions of properties that aren't yet in CR. What this prefixed property means is undecided.
  414. # [19:04] <Zakim> -jdaggett
  415. # [19:04] <Zakim> -johnjan
  416. # [19:04] <Zakim> -glazou
  417. # [19:04] <Zakim> -smfr
  418. # [19:04] <Zakim> -hober
  419. # [19:04] <Zakim> -howcome
  420. # [19:04] <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
  421. # [19:04] <Zakim> -sylvaing
  422. # [19:04] * Quits: glazou (glazou@85.168.30.158) (Quit: glazou)
  423. # [19:04] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  424. # [19:04] <Zakim> -David_Baron
  425. # [19:04] <Zakim> -TabAtkins_
  426. # [19:04] <Zakim> -kojiishi
  427. # [19:04] <Zakim> -danielweck
  428. # [19:04] <Zakim> -cathy_
  429. # [19:04] <Zakim> -bradk
  430. # [19:04] <Zakim> -Bert
  431. # [19:04] <Zakim> -plinss
  432. # [19:04] <Zakim> - +1.415.832.aaii
  433. # [19:04] <Zakim> -fantasai
  434. # [19:04] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  435. # [19:04] <Zakim> Attendees were +1.858.216.aaaa, plinss, +1.650.214.aabb, glazou, TabAtkins_, +1.425.707.aadd, Bert, hober, +1.650.275.aaee, David_Baron, arronei_, johnjan, bradk, kojiishi,
  436. # [19:04] <Zakim> ... jdaggett, +1.206.675.aaff, +1.408.636.aagg, smfr, danielweck, stearns, fantasai, vhardy, SteveZ, +1.206.324.aahh, sylvaing, cathy_, +1.415.832.aaii, +47.21.65.aajj, howcome
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  466. # [20:42] <fantasai> away
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  468. # [21:12] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
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  480. # Session Close: Thu Apr 14 00:00:01 2011

The end :)