/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2011-04-27 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Apr 27 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  58. # [17:41] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/04/27-css-irc
  59. # [17:42] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
  60. # [17:42] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 22 minutes
  61. # [17:42] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
  62. # [17:42] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
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  65. # [17:53] <glazou> salut arno
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  69. # [18:01] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  70. # [18:01] <Zakim> +plinss
  71. # [18:01] <Zakim> +??P20
  72. # [18:01] <glazou> Zakim, ??P20 is me
  73. # [18:01] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
  74. # [18:03] <Zakim> + +1.415.832.aaaa
  75. # [18:03] * Joins: bradk (bradk@99.7.175.117)
  76. # [18:04] <Zakim> +stearns
  77. # [18:04] * Joins: vhardy (vhardy@192.150.10.201)
  78. # [18:04] <glazou> Zakim, aaaa is vhardy
  79. # [18:04] <Zakim> +vhardy; got it
  80. # [18:04] * Joins: mihara (mihara@121.119.232.1)
  81. # [18:05] <Zakim> +bradk
  82. # [18:05] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  83. # [18:05] <arronei_> zakim, microsoft has me
  84. # [18:05] <Zakim> +arronei_; got it
  85. # [18:05] * Joins: johnjan (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  86. # [18:05] <Zakim> -bradk
  87. # [18:05] <Zakim> +??P6
  88. # [18:05] <kojiishi> zakim, ??p6 is me
  89. # [18:05] <johnjan> zakim, microsoft has johnjan
  90. # [18:06] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@173.228.28.197)
  91. # [18:06] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
  92. # [18:06] <Zakim> +kojiishi; got it
  93. # [18:06] <Zakim> + +1.415.920.aabb
  94. # [18:06] <Zakim> +johnjan; got it
  95. # [18:06] <Zakim> +bradk
  96. # [18:06] <Zakim> +David_Baron
  97. # [18:06] * Joins: danielweck (dweck2@81.154.226.17)
  98. # [18:06] * dbaron notes Zakim has become quite laggy lately
  99. # [18:07] <Zakim> +??P36
  100. # [18:08] <Zakim> -bradk
  101. # [18:08] * Joins: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.169)
  102. # [18:08] <danielweck> Zakim, ??P36 has me
  103. # [18:08] <Zakim> +danielweck; got it
  104. # [18:08] <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
  105. # [18:08] <Zakim> +ChrisL
  106. # [18:08] <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: vhardy (20%), ??P36 (17%)
  107. # [18:09] * bradk dropped again???
  108. # [18:09] <glazou> member:Zakim, who is noisy?
  109. # [18:09] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
  110. # [18:09] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P36 (46%)
  111. # [18:09] <Zakim> +bradk
  112. # [18:09] * Joins: smfr (smfr@173.228.90.67)
  113. # [18:10] <glazou> Zakim, mute ??P36
  114. # [18:10] <Zakim> ??P36 should now be muted
  115. # [18:10] <glazou> Zakim, ??P36 is danielweck
  116. # [18:10] <Zakim> +danielweck; got it
  117. # [18:10] <danielweck> thanks !
  118. # [18:10] <Zakim> +smfr
  119. # [18:10] * Joins: arno1 (arno@192.150.10.200)
  120. # [18:10] <glazou> danielweck: np, we had a lot of noise and echo coming from your phone
  121. # [18:10] * Quits: arno (arno@192.150.10.200) (Ping timeout)
  122. # [18:10] <danielweck> crash....
  123. # [18:10] <danielweck> :)
  124. # [18:10] <danielweck> brb
  125. # [18:11] <Zakim> +SteveZ
  126. # [18:11] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.aa]
  127. # [18:11] * Joins: szilles (chatzilla@24.6.120.172)
  128. # [18:11] <Zakim> +[Sophia]
  129. # [18:11] <Zakim> +howcome
  130. # [18:11] <dbaron> Zakim, who is noisy?
  131. # [18:11] <ChrisL> zakim, mute howcome
  132. # [18:11] <Zakim> howcome should now be muted
  133. # [18:11] * Bert zakim, sophia is me
  134. # [18:12] * Zakim +Bert; got it
  135. # [18:12] * Joins: Cathy (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  136. # [18:12] <Zakim> dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [Sophia] (39%), glazou (48%)
  137. # [18:12] * Joins: howcome (howcome@80.203.19.137)
  138. # [18:12] <ChrisL> zakim, unmute howcome
  139. # [18:12] <Zakim> howcome should no longer be muted
  140. # [18:12] <dbaron> Zakim, mute Bert
  141. # [18:12] <Zakim> Bert should now be muted
  142. # [18:12] <glazou> wow
  143. # [18:12] <glazou> I just lost one ear
  144. # [18:12] <Zakim> +[Apple]
  145. # [18:12] <hober> Zakim, Apple has me
  146. # [18:12] <Zakim> +hober; got it
  147. # [18:12] <TabAtkins> ...I am retarded. Be there for a sec.
  148. # [18:12] <TabAtkins> s/for/in/
  149. # [18:13] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.80)
  150. # [18:13] <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
  151. # [18:13] * dbaron Zakim, who is on the phone?
  152. # [18:13] * Zakim sees on the phone: plinss, glazou, vhardy, stearns, [Microsoft], kojiishi, [Microsoft.a], +1.415.920.aabb, David_Baron, danielweck (muted), ChrisL, bradk, smfr, SteveZ,
  153. # [18:13] * Zakim ... [Microsoft.aa], Bert (muted), howcome, [Apple]
  154. # [18:13] * Zakim danielweck has danielweck
  155. # [18:13] * Zakim [Microsoft] has johnjan
  156. # [18:13] * Zakim [Apple] has hober
  157. # [18:13] <sylvaing> Zakim, [Microsoft] has sylvaing
  158. # [18:13] <Zakim> +sylvaing; got it
  159. # [18:14] <fantasai> plinss: Reminder that meeting starts at 9am, not 9:10. Please call in before 9am so things move quicker.
  160. # [18:14] <fantasai> plinss: Last week we talked about Namespaces. Daniel, you were going to i18n?
  161. # [18:14] <Zakim> +??P44
  162. # [18:14] <danielweck> Zakim, ??P44 has me
  163. # [18:14] <Zakim> +danielweck; got it
  164. # [18:14] <fantasai> glazou: Did not do that yet, will do that today.
  165. # [18:14] * dbaron danielweck, you should use "is me" rather than "has me" unless it's a phone that's going to be multiple people
  166. # [18:14] <fantasai> Topic: Charter
  167. # [18:14] <Zakim> +TabAtkins_
  168. # [18:15] <fantasai> ChrisL: Incorporated most feedback so far.
  169. # [18:15] <fantasai> ChrisL: Would like to alphabetize them within sections.
  170. # [18:15] * Joins: TabAtkins_ (tabatkins@216.239.45.4)
  171. # [18:15] <fantasai> ChrisL: Going through from dbaron's comments from April 19th
  172. # [18:15] <danielweck> Zakim, ??P44 is me
  173. # [18:15] <Zakim> +danielweck; got it
  174. # [18:16] <fantasai> ChrisL: Did have a question, since modules no longer say CSS3 Blah, wasn't sure how to word CSS4 UI
  175. # [18:16] <fantasai> CSS UI, Level 3
  176. # [18:16] <fantasai> CSS UI, Level 4
  177. # [18:17] <glazou> can we get here on IRC a URL to the last visible version of the charter with those edits?
  178. # [18:17] <fantasai> ChrisL: Could put it in the charter as CSS UI, then both are in scope
  179. # [18:17] <fantasai> ChrisL: Other question about fullscreen. Some suggest part of UI, some part of separate module
  180. # [18:18] <ChrisL> http://www.w3.org/2010/09/CSSWG/charter.html
  181. # [18:18] <Bert> Did we agree to create UI level 4 already? I'm not sure I want a level 4. Rather a "Fullscreen level 3."
  182. # [18:18] <fantasai> fantasai: CSS3 UI is aiming for PR soon, so can't put it in there.
  183. # [18:19] <fantasai> fantasai: Tantek wants it as a separate module because it's very high priority for Mozilla
  184. # [18:19] <fantasai> fantasai: Also it's not quite related to the other UI things
  185. # [18:19] <fantasai> ChrisL: What about Selectors 4?
  186. # [18:20] <fantasai> glazou, fantasai: low priority
  187. # [18:20] <fantasai> ChrisL: Priority?
  188. # [18:20] <fantasai> fantasai: depends on who writes tests how fast :)
  189. # [18:20] <fantasai> ChrisL: ok, I'll list fullscreen as medium
  190. # [18:21] <fantasai> plinss: I like the idea of leaving the levels out of the Charter
  191. # [18:21] <fantasai> ChrisL: Allows us to split modules as we see fit.
  192. # [18:21] <szilles> +1 for leaving off level #
  193. # [18:21] <fantasai> glazou: sounds good
  194. # [18:22] <gsnedders> Zakim, what's the code?
  195. # [18:22] <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), gsnedders
  196. # [18:22] <fantasai> plinss: Grid Positioning should be medium, not low
  197. # [18:22] <fantasai> fantasai: Grid Layout, yo umean
  198. # [18:22] <Zakim> + +44.131.208.aacc
  199. # [18:22] <fantasai> some discussion of various modules with 'grid' in the title
  200. # [18:22] <Zakim> -danielweck
  201. # [18:22] * glazou will try writing a Test Suite for CSS Styling Attribute so we could move to PR
  202. # [18:23] <fantasai> :)
  203. # [18:23] <gsnedders> zakim, aacc is me
  204. # [18:23] <Zakim> +gsnedders; got it
  205. # [18:23] * dbaron glazou, <p style="color: green">This should be green.</p> ?
  206. # [18:23] <danielweck> Zakim, who am I ?
  207. # [18:23] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, danielweck.
  208. # [18:23] <fantasai> plinss: Media Queries OM?
  209. # [18:23] <fantasai> glazou: Only an editor's draft atm, but Mozilla and ? are starting to implement parts of it
  210. # [18:24] <danielweck> Zakim, who is on the phone?
  211. # [18:24] <Zakim> On the phone I see plinss, glazou, vhardy, stearns, [Microsoft], kojiishi, [Microsoft.a], +1.415.920.aabb, David_Baron, ChrisL, bradk, smfr, SteveZ, [Microsoft.aa], Bert (muted),
  212. # [18:24] <fantasai> ChrisL: Should I add that as low priority
  213. # [18:24] <Zakim> ... howcome, [Apple], danielweck.a, TabAtkins_, gsnedders
  214. # [18:24] <Zakim> danielweck.a has danielweck
  215. # [18:24] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has sylvaing
  216. # [18:24] <fantasai> glazou: yes
  217. # [18:24] <Zakim> [Apple] has hober
  218. # [18:24] <fantasai> dbaron: This was part of the CSSOM View spec
  219. # [18:24] <fantasai> ChrisL: CSSOM Views is there already
  220. # [18:24] <fantasai> dbaron: Splitting it out probably isn't crazy, but it's a bit small for its own spec
  221. # [18:24] * Quits: arno1 (arno@192.150.10.200) (Quit: Leaving.)
  222. # [18:25] <fantasai> ChrisL: Can do either.
  223. # [18:25] <dbaron> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom-view/#extensions-to-the-window-interface
  224. # [18:25] <fantasai> fantasai: If it's in CSSOM View, then splitting it out later might make sense
  225. # [18:25] <fantasai> if needed
  226. # [18:25] <fantasai> sylvaing: What's the priority of CSSOM View?
  227. # [18:25] <fantasai> glazou: From WG perspective, or authors perspective?
  228. # [18:25] <fantasai> glazou: From author's perspective it's pretty high
  229. # [18:25] <dbaron> Actually, I think most of cssom-view is pretty stable.
  230. # [18:26] <fantasai> sylvaing: And we've been talking it more and more.
  231. # [18:26] <dbaron> cssom, not so much
  232. # [18:26] * Joins: arno (arno@192.150.10.201)
  233. # [18:26] <fantasai> fantasai: Problem is lack of an editor. Spec moves as fast as Anne has time.
  234. # [18:26] <ChrisL> we need a ghood, active editor for that spec
  235. # [18:27] <fantasai> dbaron: Are we talking about CSSOM or CSSOM View
  236. # [18:27] <fantasai> dbaron: I skimmed through CSSOM View, and most of it is pretty stable
  237. # [18:27] <fantasai> dbaron: Most of it is old features implemented for a long time, and thne there are new features.
  238. # [18:27] <fantasai> sylvaing: CSSOM View is separate document, very focused. Can move to CR and beyond on its own.
  239. # [18:27] <fantasai> sylvaing: Thinking of CSSOM as a whole.
  240. # [18:28] <fantasai> sylvaing: It's very important.
  241. # [18:28] <fantasai> ...
  242. # [18:28] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: I can help out. Can't take over the spec, but would like to help out.
  243. # [18:29] <fantasai> ChrisL: You're also sliced pretty thin.
  244. # [18:29] <fantasai> glazou: We need someone with a strong commitment to one spec and not doing many things outside that field. Both Anne and you do that.
  245. # [18:29] <fantasai> glazou: It's not a bad thing, it's just factual.
  246. # [18:29] <fantasai> sylvaing: Don't want to rathole discussion on charter on this point, but still concerned about CSSOM being at the end of the train.
  247. # [18:29] <ChrisL> We need more Tabs
  248. # [18:30] * plinss Tab expansion property?
  249. # [18:30] <fantasai> sylvaing: It's a lot of work, including for implementers
  250. # [18:30] <fantasai> fantasai: bottom line, need more spec-editing capacity
  251. # [18:30] <fantasai> sylvaing: I'll see what I can do on our end
  252. # [18:30] <fantasai> plinss: Any other charter comments?
  253. # [18:30] <glazou> #tab { expanded: super-expanded} ?
  254. # [18:31] * Ms2ger glazou, fwiw, I wrote a couple of simple tests for css-style-attr at http://www.w3c-test.org/html/tests/submission/Ms2ger/global-attributes/style-01.html
  255. # [18:31] <glazou> Ms2ger: thanks !
  256. # [18:31] <fantasai> SteveZ: medium priority has template layout but not grid layout, they're kindof combined now
  257. # [18:32] <glazou> Ms2ger: do you want to help me on that test suite ?
  258. # [18:32] <fantasai> fantasai: Think we should list them both, then see what happens
  259. # [18:32] <fantasai> glazou, http://test.csswg.org/source/contributors/fantasai/submitted/css-style-attr/
  260. # [18:32] <glazou> fantasai: coool
  261. # [18:33] <fantasai> ChrisL: Last time we wanted to recharter, W3C told us we need to get CSS2.1 to PR first.
  262. # [18:33] <fantasai> ChrisL: Now that's done, this could go to AC within a week or two, after CSSWG is done with it.
  263. # [18:33] * Quits: Cathy (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  264. # [18:33] <fantasai> SteveZ: What does AC look at?
  265. # [18:33] <fantasai> ChrisL: Mostly managerial issues. FTEs vs. work, etc.
  266. # [18:34] <fantasai> ChrisL: For CSSWG, there were concerns about too much work, you'll never get it done, etc.
  267. # [18:34] <glazou> fantasai: http://test.csswg.org/source/contributors/fantasai/submitted/css-style-attr/style-attr-braces-003.htm is probably wrong...
  268. # [18:34] <fantasai> ChrisL: But that's less of an issue now.
  269. # [18:34] <fantasai> glazou, no it's not; you have to match braces when parsing CSS.
  270. # [18:34] <fantasai> Topic: Snapshots
  271. # [18:34] <fantasai> plinss: fantasai posted some updates
  272. # [18:34] <glazou> fantasai: prose says "green on green bg"...
  273. # [18:34] * Joins: Cathy (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  274. # [18:35] <ChrisL> Still not sure of the relevance of more than one dated snapshot
  275. # [18:35] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-2010/#testing
  276. # [18:36] <glazou> fantasai: last |color: red| in source should be |color: green|
  277. # [18:36] <fantasai> fantasai: Just to update the spec so it's not WD, it's done
  278. # [18:36] <fantasai> glazou: nope
  279. # [18:36] <fantasai> glazou: that's invalid due to the braces
  280. # [18:36] <glazou> fantasai: then it's BLACK on green bg...
  281. # [18:36] <glazou> fantasai: prose is wrong or source is wrong
  282. # [18:36] <fantasai> glazou, yeah, that needs fixing :) will fix
  283. # [18:37] <glazou> ah :-)
  284. # [18:37] * glazou ...what I said, test is currently wrong :-)
  285. # [18:37] <fantasai> ChrisL: Why is it 2010 not 2011?
  286. # [18:37] <fantasai> fantasai: First published in 2010
  287. # [18:37] <fantasai> ChrisL: Will there be 2011?
  288. # [18:37] <fantasai> fantasai: If we have anything to add, yes
  289. # [18:38] <fantasai> plinss: Should publish as often as necessary, even if twice a year
  290. # [18:38] <fantasai> fantasai doesn't disagree
  291. # [18:38] <fantasai> fantasai: Back to 3.4
  292. # [18:38] <fantasai> sylvaing: Where do we define experimental vs. non-experimental?
  293. # [18:39] <fantasai> fantasai: hm... nowhere, need to do that
  294. # [18:39] <fantasai> fantasai: Can steal definition in CR exit criteria
  295. # [18:39] <fantasai> sylvaing: Should also make a case for *enough* test coverage, as determined by WG.
  296. # [18:40] <fantasai> some discussion of how to wording this
  297. # [18:41] <fantasai> plinss: s/they consider/they can demonstrate/
  298. # [18:41] <szilles> +1 for "demonstrated"
  299. # [18:41] <bradk> demonstrated to the satisfaction of the WG
  300. # [18:42] <fantasai> SteveZ: why would I do an experimental implementation
  301. # [18:42] <fantasai> plinss: Implementation before CR is experimental
  302. # [18:43] <fantasai> SteveZ: maybe reverse order of paragraphs
  303. # [18:43] <Zakim> -danielweck.a
  304. # [18:44] <fantasai> "The test cases used for the implementation report must be sufficient to demonstrate something to the satisfaction of the CSS WG"
  305. # [18:44] <Zakim> +??P17
  306. # [18:44] <danielweck> Zakim, ??P17 is me
  307. # [18:44] <Zakim> +danielweck; got it
  308. # [18:44] <glazou> Zakim, mute danielweck
  309. # [18:44] <Zakim> danielweck should now be muted
  310. # [18:44] <fantasai> "and are subject to review by the CSSWG"
  311. # [18:45] <fantasai> "The testcases used for the implementation report must be sufficient to demonstrate interoperability and are subject to review by the CSSWG"
  312. # [18:45] * glazou thinks we should reserve the last 15 minutes to Variables
  313. # [18:46] <fantasai> plinss: Anything else on snapshot? Happy with it modulo prefix edits?
  314. # [18:46] * bradk has to leave. bye.
  315. # [18:46] <fantasai> SteveZ: No, but I'll send out response to sylvain's comment
  316. # [18:46] * Quits: bradk (bradk@99.7.175.117) (Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/ )
  317. # [18:46] <fantasai> fantasai: moved to mailing list
  318. # [18:46] <fantasai> Topic: writing modes
  319. # [18:46] <Zakim> -bradk
  320. # [18:46] <fantasai> plinss: anyone reviewed it?
  321. # [18:47] <fantasai> Added http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-writing-modes/#appendix-b-intrinsic-sizing
  322. # [18:47] <fantasai> to have some definitions, but otherwise no changes since 3 weeks ago
  323. # [18:48] <glazou> let's not diverge please, Variables !
  324. # [18:48] <fantasai> howcome: The multicol things in there, is that related to the other proposal ?
  325. # [18:49] <fantasai> fantasai: related, but not the same. 7.3.2 takes an element that is not multicol and turns it into a multicol element
  326. # [18:50] <glazou> +1
  327. # [18:50] <fantasai> howcome: So you tell some content that is not multicol content to behave as a multicol element
  328. # [18:50] <fantasai> plinss: You just want to publish WD, right?
  329. # [18:50] <fantasai> plinss: Can we just resolve to publish that and take detailed discusison offline? Is there a reason not to publish?
  330. # [18:50] <fantasai> SteveZ: If it's a WD, no, there is no reason not to publish.
  331. # [18:50] <fantasai> plinss: No objections?
  332. # [18:51] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Publish WD of CSS3 Writing Modes
  333. # [18:51] <fantasai> Topic: Variables/Mixins/Constants
  334. # [18:51] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Everybody knows what they are and what they do.
  335. # [18:51] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I want to take editorship of one or two drafts and work on those officially.
  336. # [18:51] <fantasai> fantasai: What else is on your list?
  337. # [18:51] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Lists and Flexbox. Later this summer, position-layout, then variables and mixins
  338. # [18:52] <fantasai> dbaron: Variables are CSS values, mixins are CSS declaration blocks
  339. # [18:52] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Distinction isn't important in simplistic case
  340. # [18:52] <fantasai> TabAtkins: We think it's needed to have parametrized mixins
  341. # [18:52] <fantasai> TabAtkins: At that point they become distinct enough that you want different concepts
  342. # [18:52] <fantasai> SteveZ: And variables still have all of their problems
  343. # [18:52] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Depends on what you mean by problems.
  344. # [18:53] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Variables I have are global in scope
  345. # [18:53] <fantasai> TabAtkins: All various syntax issues, I believe I have reasonable answers to these.
  346. # [18:53] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Discussion stalled at "want to write something out officially"
  347. # [18:53] <fantasai> TabAtkins: We're working on this experimentally, but want to discuss working in WG
  348. # [18:54] <fantasai> glazou: When hyatt and I proposed variables, there was a strong discussion of what do we really need. Do we ned variables, constants, mutable constants?
  349. # [18:54] <dbaron> s/dbaron:/TabAtkins: dbaron,/
  350. # [18:54] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I believe what is useful ro authors is true variables, changing them via script
  351. # [18:54] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Seems to open a lot of interesting applications
  352. # [18:55] <fantasai> glazou: That was the original proposal, and members of the group objected to that.
  353. # [18:55] <fantasai> glazou: I think it makes sense to have consensus on what we want to accomplish before we start working on it.
  354. # [18:55] <fantasai> SteveZ: I agree sortof with what you're saying, but our discussion always sem to laps into details to have a discussion.
  355. # [18:56] <fantasai> SteveZ: Might make more progress with a concrete proposal
  356. # [18:56] <fantasai> glazou: That's what we did with our proposal
  357. # [18:56] <fantasai> glazou: What I'm afraid of is Google going really really fast and implementing as soon as it is written
  358. # [18:56] <fantasai> glazou: Same problem as with apple, they had to remove their implementation because of lack of agreement from the WG
  359. # [18:57] <fantasai> glazou: I really want variables. But I don't want to end up in a vicious circle.
  360. # [18:57] <fantasai> TabAtkins: How do I make progress?
  361. # [18:57] <fantasai> fantasai: Write a requirements document.
  362. # [18:58] <fantasai> fantasai: Say "we need script-mutable variables and this is why and here are the use cases and here is why the other ways of addressing this are insufficient"
  363. # [18:58] <fantasai> fantasai: And say "we need mixins and this is why and here are the use cases we need to solve and here is why the other ways of addressing similar concepts is insufficient"
  364. # [18:59] <fantasai> some discussion on why we should address this issue at all
  365. # [18:59] <fantasai> howcome: we already have JavaScript
  366. # [18:59] <fantasai> TabAtkins: That's not an actual argument
  367. # [18:59] <fantasai> TabAtkins: This is not making CSS a programming language. This is taking the massive repetition in a style sheet and reducing it
  368. # [19:00] <fantasai> TabAtkins: It's taking a color and naming it so you can change it later
  369. # [19:00] <fantasai> ChrisL: You can do that with search and replace only if you only use the color for one thing
  370. # [19:00] <fantasai> howcome: I encourage everyone to read Bert's essay
  371. # [19:00] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I encourage everyone to read ???'s rebuttal to that essay
  372. # [19:00] <fantasai> sylvaing talks about six-or seven style sheets and managing them being painful
  373. # [19:01] <ChrisL> s/replace only/replace, but only/
  374. # [19:01] <fantasai> lots of argument
  375. # [19:01] <dbaron> s/???'s/Alex Russell's/
  376. # [19:02] <fantasai> sylvaing: If something's in JQuery, it should be interesting for us
  377. # [19:02] * ChrisL Tab asserts that JQuery is not magic! I thought it ran on unicorns ....
  378. # [19:02] <fantasai> howcome: This isn't going to be useful in the near term.
  379. # [19:02] <fantasai> howcome: It will take many years
  380. # [19:02] <fantasai> glazou: Variables was user feedback number one from 1998
  381. # [19:02] <Zakim> -ChrisL
  382. # [19:02] <fantasai> sylvaing: Nevermind timeline, it may be easy to do in JavaScript you have an API that makes it easy to deal with.
  383. # [19:02] <fantasai> sylvaing: We won't have that for years.
  384. # [19:03] <fantasai> sylvaing: We don't have APIs that make it easy to navigate style rules and change colors
  385. # [19:03] * ChrisL freebox seems to cut off after 55 minutes now
  386. # [19:03] <fantasai> sylvaing: Don't want to parse CSS in JavaScript
  387. # [19:04] <Bert> (Can't we create a Web Macro Language WG, to create something that works for also for HTML, SVG, scripts, etc.?)
  388. # [19:04] * Quits: szilles (chatzilla@24.6.120.172) (Ping timeout)
  389. # [19:04] <dbaron> I think most of the use cases presented in the discussion didn't require variables as distinguished from constants.
  390. # [19:05] <sylvaing> dbaron, true. my own need is mostly constants
  391. # [19:05] <fantasai> My concern is that people will use variables when they only need constants.
  392. # [19:05] <fantasai> variables are heavyweight, they require a lot of maintenance in the OM
  393. # [19:05] * Joins: arno1 (arno@192.150.10.200)
  394. # [19:06] * sylvaing is otherwise puzzled Opera would rather run script-based parsing on phones or Opera Mini servers
  395. # [19:06] <fantasai> I don't want people to be using variables when they don't need script interactions
  396. # [19:06] <fantasai> dbaron: I think we need the stuff that is interchanged across the web to be simpler, not complicated
  397. # [19:07] * Quits: arno (arno@192.150.10.201) (Ping timeout)
  398. # [19:07] <fantasai> dbaron: Because that's the stuff that needs to be reimplemented when you create a new layout engine
  399. # [19:07] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Yes, we shouldn't throw tons of complexity at the client.
  400. # [19:07] <fantasai> TabAtkins: but I think this is important enough
  401. # [19:07] <fantasai> dbaron: I thinks some of it is and some of it isn't
  402. # [19:08] * fantasai shares dbaron's concern
  403. # [19:08] <fantasai> ...
  404. # [19:09] <sylvaing> strongly agrees this should be carefully scoped. Start very simple.
  405. # [19:09] <glazou> +1
  406. # [19:09] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
  407. # [19:13] <fantasai> fantasai is not minuting this
  408. # [19:14] <fantasai> Someone suggests going over this at the F2F
  409. # [19:14] <Zakim> -danielweck
  410. # [19:14] <dbaron> Daniel probably wants later in the day Japan time
  411. # [19:14] <glazou> TabAtkins: see /query
  412. # [19:14] <fantasai> plinss: So Tab, you'll produce some requirements documents and this heated debate will continue another time
  413. # [19:14] <Zakim> -smfr
  414. # [19:14] <Zakim> -glazou
  415. # [19:14] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  416. # [19:14] <Zakim> -howcome
  417. # [19:14] <Zakim> -gsnedders
  418. # [19:14] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.aa]
  419. # [19:14] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  420. # [19:14] <Zakim> -vhardy
  421. # [19:14] <Zakim> -TabAtkins_
  422. # [19:14] <Zakim> -stearns
  423. # [19:14] <Zakim> -kojiishi
  424. # [19:14] <Bert> (B.t.w, results of 1998 survey were (1) transparency, (2) columns, (3) leaders. Symbolic constants was 16th, out of 67.)
  425. # [19:14] <Zakim> -plinss
  426. # [19:14] <glazou> TabAtkins_: ping
  427. # [19:14] <Zakim> -[Apple]
  428. # [19:14] <Zakim> -David_Baron
  429. # [19:14] <Zakim> - +1.415.920.aabb
  430. # [19:14] <Zakim> -Bert
  431. # [19:14] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  432. # [19:14] <Zakim> Attendees were plinss, glazou, +1.415.832.aaaa, stearns, vhardy, bradk, arronei_, [Microsoft], kojiishi, +1.415.920.aabb, johnjan, David_Baron, danielweck, ChrisL, smfr, SteveZ,
  433. # [19:14] <Zakim> ... howcome, Bert, hober, sylvaing, TabAtkins_, +44.131.208.aacc, gsnedders
  434. # [19:15] * Quits: kojiishi (kojiishi@222.158.227.129) (Quit: Leaving...)
  435. # [19:15] <glazou> TabAtkins, TabAtkins_ : still here ?
  436. # [19:15] <dbaron> 9am-5pm Japan is 2am-10am France
  437. # [19:15] * Quits: danielweck (dweck2@81.154.226.17) (Quit: danielweck)
  438. # [19:16] <glazou> dbaron: yeah, end of day in japan better for me
  439. # [19:16] * Quits: TabAtkins_ (tabatkins@216.239.45.4) (Ping timeout)
  440. # [19:16] <glazou> sigh
  441. # [19:17] * Quits: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19) (Quit: glazou)
  442. # [19:17] * Joins: funktion (5a0f7368@64.62.228.82)
  443. # [19:17] * Quits: funktion (5a0f7368@64.62.228.82) (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
  444. # [19:18] * Quits: johnjan (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
  445. # [19:18] <fantasai> glazou: you can still come :)
  446. # [19:18] * Quits: mihara (mihara@121.119.232.1) (Quit: Leaving)
  447. # [19:19] <dbaron> Meeting start time is:
  448. # [19:19] <dbaron> Wed 2011-06-01 17:00 PDT (California, USA)
  449. # [19:19] <dbaron> Wed 2011-06-01 20:00 EDT (New York, USA)
  450. # [19:19] <dbaron> Thu 2011-06-02 02:00 CEST (France)
  451. # [19:19] <dbaron> Thu 2011-06-02 09:00 JST (Japan)
  452. # [19:19] <fantasai> 750ish euros to Japan doesn't seem too bad
  453. # [19:19] <dbaron> Meeting end time is:
  454. # [19:19] * Quits: stearns (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
  455. # [19:19] <dbaron> Thu 2011-06-02 01:00 PDT (California, USA)
  456. # [19:19] <dbaron> Thu 2011-06-02 04:00 EDT (New York, USA)
  457. # [19:19] <dbaron> Thu 2011-06-02 10:00 CEST (France)
  458. # [19:19] <dbaron> Thu 2011-06-02 17:00 JST (Japan)
  459. # [19:19] <dbaron> (first day)
  460. # [19:19] <dbaron> assuming we do 9-5, that is
  461. # [19:20] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@173.228.28.197) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  462. # [19:21] * Joins: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19)
  463. # [19:21] <glazou> TabAtkins: I'm here
  464. # [19:22] * Joins: szilles (chatzilla@24.6.120.172)
  465. # [19:22] <TabAtkins> glazou: kk
  466. # [19:22] <Ms2ger> glazou, I'd be interested in writing tests, but I know barely anything about CSS syntax ;)
  467. # [19:22] <glazou> Ms2ger: oh ok :-)
  468. # [19:22] <glazou> nm then
  469. # [19:23] * Quits: myakura (myakura@49.129.50.226) (Client exited)
  470. # [19:23] <glazou> TabAtkins: see /query
  471. # [19:29] <fantasai> glazou: test fixed
  472. # [19:30] <glazou> thx
  473. # [19:30] <glazou> :)
  474. # [19:30] * glazou was right ;-)
  475. # [19:30] * fantasai missed the color issue
  476. # [19:31] <glazou> eheh
  477. # [19:31] <fantasai> I think the other series of tests that would be needed is CSS escapes and SGML escapes (mixed up nicely)
  478. # [19:32] <glazou> hmmm
  479. # [19:32] <fantasai> and maybe tossing in a few control characters to see how they parse
  480. # [19:32] <fantasai> other than that, I'm not coming up with anything else to test here, you?
  481. # [19:32] * Quits: Cathy (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  482. # [19:33] * fantasai thinks the braces thing is the main one that implementations are likely to get wrong
  483. # [19:33] <glazou> had not time to check yet
  484. # [19:33] <Ms2ger> Oh, \f, probably
  485. # [19:34] <glazou> fantasai: we may need to that at-rules are not honoured
  486. # [19:34] <glazou> test
  487. # [19:34] <fantasai> ahhh
  488. # [19:34] <fantasai> yes :)
  489. # [19:34] <fantasai> Ms2ger: form feed? yes that's a good one
  490. # [19:35] <glazou> yep
  491. # [19:36] <hober> tests for the style attr spec?
  492. # [19:37] <glazou> yes
  493. # [19:37] <glazou> do you have some to contribute ?
  494. # [19:38] <Ms2ger> Oh, that is a space in CSS too
  495. # [19:39] * Ms2ger thought there was a mismatch
  496. # [19:39] * fantasai thought so too
  497. # [19:39] * Parts: smfr (smfr@173.228.90.67)
  498. # [19:40] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Sep/0330.html
  499. # [19:41] <Ms2ger> Oh, XML
  500. # [19:42] * Quits: szilles (chatzilla@24.6.120.172) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 4.0/20110318052756])
  501. # [19:42] * Quits: howcome (howcome@80.203.19.137) (Ping timeout)
  502. # [19:43] <glazou> dinner time here
  503. # [19:43] <glazou> bye people
  504. # [19:43] * Quits: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19) (Quit: glazou)
  505. # [19:52] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.240)
  506. # [20:07] * Quits: oyvind (oyvinds@213.236.208.22) (Quit: oyvind)
  507. # [20:13] * Joins: karl (karlcow@128.30.54.58)
  508. # [20:18] <fantasai> Bert?
  509. # [20:27] * Quits: arno1 (arno@192.150.10.200) (Quit: Leaving.)
  510. # [20:28] <fantasai> Bert: Can you set up css3-writing-modes for publication?
  511. # [20:29] <fantasai> Bert: I sent a message to webreq... but they probably want it set up or something
  512. # [20:29] * fantasai doesn't know the new process
  513. # [20:30] * Joins: arno (arno@192.150.10.201)
  514. # [20:31] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.80) (Connection reset by peer)
  515. # [20:35] * Quits: karl (karlcow@128.30.54.58) (Ping timeout)
  516. # [20:35] * Quits: arronei_ (arronei@131.107.0.84) (Quit: arronei_)
  517. # [20:35] * Joins: arronei (arronei@131.107.0.84)
  518. # [20:42] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.169)
  519. # [20:45] <fantasai> arronei: does data:text/html;charset=utf-8;base64,PHVsIHN0eWxlPSJsaXN0LXN0eWxlLXR5cGU6IGNqay1pZGVvZ3JhcGhpYzsgbWFyZ2luOiA1ZW0iPg0KICA8bGkgdmFsdWU9IjEwMDAwMSI%2BSXRlbSAxMDAwMDENCjwvdWw%2B give anything interesting in IE9?
  520. # [20:46] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  521. # [20:46] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.169)
  522. # [20:49] * Quits: vhardy (vhardy@192.150.10.201) (Ping timeout)
  523. # [21:08] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.169) (Quit: shepazu)
  524. # [21:09] * fantasai wonders what happens if you give list-style-image a sound URL
  525. # [21:51] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.80)
  526. # [22:01] * Quits: arno (arno@192.150.10.201) (Connection reset by peer)
  527. # [22:09] <Bert> OK, fantasai, I'll install css3-writing-modes.
  528. # [22:17] * Quits: Ms2ger (Ms2ger@91.181.24.185) (Connection reset by peer)
  529. # [22:23] <fantasai> Bert: Thanks!
  530. # [22:29] <Bert> Fantasai, the file seems to refer to diagrams/glyph-right.svg and diagrams/glyph-upright.svg
  531. # [22:29] <Bert> I don't see those in CVS.
  532. # [22:32] * fantasai looks
  533. # [22:33] * Joins: Ms2ger (Ms2ger@91.181.58.132)
  534. # [22:34] <fantasai> Bert: Checked in
  535. # [22:34] <fantasai> Bert: sorry
  536. # [22:39] <Bert> The internal style sheet also centers the W3C logo. :-)
  537. # [22:39] <Bert> I guess that style rule for IMG needs to be more specific, or needs an override.
  538. # [22:40] <fantasai> hmmmm
  539. # [22:41] <fantasai> I think I can fix that :)
  540. # [22:43] <fantasai> Done
  541. # [22:43] <fantasai> writing modes has so many awkwardly placed diagrams :/
  542. # [22:44] <fantasai> and I should be adding /more/
  543. # [22:48] <Bert> There is a broken fragment, #isolate, on line 491.
  544. # [22:51] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.80) (Quit: sylvaing)
  545. # [22:52] <Bert> Fantasai, any idea what #isolate should point to?
  546. # [22:53] <fantasai> Bert: yeah. Fixed.
  547. # [22:53] <fantasai> Bert: The problem was I didn't use <dfn> in some of the value definition lists
  548. # [22:58] <Bert> One more error (the last one, it seems): the "previous version" is not correct.
  549. # [22:58] <Bert> Should be http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-css3-writing-modes-20110201/
  550. # [23:02] <fantasai> Bert: fixed
  551. # [23:02] <fantasai> Bert: Thanks for your review :)
  552. # [23:04] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Wrt discussions on ranges, the principle that underlies the resolutions is that CSS might want to define a minimum range
  553. # [23:04] <fantasai> TabAtkins: But not a maximum one
  554. # [23:05] <fantasai> TabAtkins: in other words, we might require that z-index values between -10,000 and 10,000 be supported
  555. # [23:05] <Ms2ger> We should only define exact ranges
  556. # [23:05] <fantasai> TabAtkins: but won't require clipping to that range if an implementation is capable of supporting 10,000,000
  557. # [23:05] * Quits: Martijnc (Martijnc@84.192.44.100) (Quit: Martijnc)
  558. # [23:06] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Similarly, we might require that 32 counters are required to be supported in the 'counter-increment' property, but allow for an implementation that supports 120
  559. # [23:07] <TabAtkins> So, let's pull this back to the relevant discussion, which is limiting the range of the cjk-longhand styles.
  560. # [23:07] <fantasai> I think that's a reasonable thing for the spec to do
  561. # [23:07] <fantasai> I'm less convinced that implementations should be *required* to *not* support correct numbering beyond that range
  562. # [23:09] <TabAtkins> I'm not going to spec more than the range that I require. If they do something beyond that range, it'll be based on their own research, and thus has a good chance of not being interoperable.
  563. # [23:10] <TabAtkins> Plus, I need to be able to test fallback styles, which relies on lists rendering in a different way outside of their defined range.
  564. # [23:10] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.169)
  565. # [23:11] * fantasai waves to shepazu
  566. # [23:12] <fantasai> TabAtkins: that's pretty easy to do
  567. # [23:12] * shepazu waves to fantasai from Disney in Seattle
  568. # [23:13] <TabAtkins> Explain? I don't see how I can test the rendering of, say, 100001, when it could be 一〇〇〇〇一 or [something undefined].
  569. # [23:16] <fantasai> write the test to require either 一〇〇〇〇一 or 十..零一
  570. # [23:16] <TabAtkins> But the latter rendering is undefined.
  571. # [23:18] <fantasai> We have multiple cases where exact behavior is undefined
  572. # [23:18] <fantasai> but there is a preferred behavior
  573. # [23:18] <TabAtkins> All of those are problems.
  574. # [23:19] <fantasai> In such cases we write the test for the preferred behavior and mark it as an issue
  575. # [23:19] <TabAtkins> Which I refuse to put in a spec that I edit.
  576. # [23:19] <fantasai> You'll have to make sure you don't ever wind up editing CSS3 Text then :)
  577. # [23:20] <fantasai> line breaking and justification are both very undefined
  578. # [23:20] <fantasai> and that's not a fixable problem
  579. # [23:20] <TabAtkins> I don't plan to. ^_^
  580. # [23:21] <TabAtkins> (But I think the lack of definition is a problem there.)
  581. # [23:21] <fantasai> You haven't spent enough time dealing with the typesetting industry
  582. # [23:22] <TabAtkins> So, is there a practical purpose for lists that are specifically cjk longhand with counter values >10k?
  583. # [23:22] <fantasai> No idea. I'm just uncomfortable with requiring UAs to do something that's wrong when there's no really good reason to do that.
  584. # [23:23] <fantasai> We know it's wrong.
  585. # [23:23] <fantasai> We know the right answer.
  586. # [23:23] <fantasai> It's not too complicated to implement, because we have two implementations.
  587. # [23:23] <TabAtkins> I'm comfortable with the practical answer here of "nobody will ever care".
  588. # [23:24] <fantasai> if nobody cares
  589. # [23:24] <TabAtkins> (One impl is buggy.)
  590. # [23:24] <fantasai> then why not allow two behaviors?
  591. # [23:24] <TabAtkins> Because that's *not what you do when you're writing specs*.
  592. # [23:24] <fantasai> (True. But that doesn't seem like a problem that's hard to fix.)
  593. # [23:24] <TabAtkins> The point of a spec is to promote interop.
  594. # [23:24] <TabAtkins> Putting in options that no one cares about does not accomplish that goal.
  595. # [23:27] <fantasai> If later on you find out that someone cares, then what?
  596. # [23:27] <TabAtkins> Then we change the spec.
  597. # [23:27] <TabAtkins> If a simple system happens to address theoretical cases, great. But you don't make a system more complex unless you have concrete need to do so.
  598. # [23:30] <fantasai> The "then we change the spec" bit is the part that concerns me
  599. # [23:30] <TabAtkins> Why? Specs are easy to change.
  600. # [23:30] <TabAtkins> I'm rather certain that changing this sort of thing won't break anyone, if we ever do so.
  601. # [23:31] <fantasai> If it's a possibility, then you should at least note it in the spec.
  602. # [23:31] <TabAtkins> (The certainty that it doesn't matter in the first place leads me to believe we won't break anyone.)
  603. # [23:31] <fantasai> "A future level of this spec may define xyz counter styles beyond this range."
  604. # [23:31] <TabAtkins> I plan to note that the longhand styles are defined over a much larger range, but I am defining it over a smaller range instead.
  605. # [23:32] <fantasai> That way implementers know that the behavior may change in the future
  606. # [23:32] <fantasai> and authors have a chance of knowing that too
  607. # [23:33] <TabAtkins> If it removes your objections, I'm okay with making sure I phrase the note to that effect.
  608. # [23:33] <fantasai> yeah, that works for me
  609. # [23:33] <fantasai> although I still think you need to ask the WG for opinions from other people
  610. # [23:33] <TabAtkins> I did, this morning. ^_^
  611. # [23:37] * Quits: Ms2ger (Ms2ger@91.181.58.132) (Quit: nn)
  612. # Session Close: Thu Apr 28 00:00:00 2011

The end :)