/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2011-05-11 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Wed May 11 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #css
  3. # [01:10] * Joins: homata (homata@113.34.70.146)
  4. # [01:10] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.101)
  5. # [01:14] * Joins: homata_ (homata@58.158.182.50)
  6. # [01:15] * Quits: homata (homata@113.34.70.146) (Ping timeout)
  7. # [01:38] <fantasai> TabAtkins: :link vs. :visited can't be captured with a[href]
  8. # [01:42] <TabAtkins> a[href]:not(:visited) ^_^
  9. # [01:46] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.101) (Connection reset by peer)
  10. # [01:50] * Quits: plinss (plinss@192.6.114.30) (Quit: plinss)
  11. # [02:17] * Joins: jdaggett (jdaggett@202.221.217.73)
  12. # [02:59] * Joins: homata__ (homata_@58.158.182.50)
  13. # [03:12] * Quits: homata__ (homata_@58.158.182.50) (Client exited)
  14. # [03:18] * Joins: plinss (plinss@68.107.116.23)
  15. # [03:30] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.101)
  16. # [03:31] * Joins: sgalineau (sylvaing@184.214.80.237)
  17. # [03:31] * Quits: homata_ (homata@58.158.182.50) (Ping timeout)
  18. # [03:31] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.101) (Connection reset by peer)
  19. # [03:39] * Joins: homata_ (homata_@58.158.182.50)
  20. # [03:46] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.169) (Quit: Core Breach)
  21. # [03:59] * Quits: sgalineau (sylvaing@184.214.80.237) (Ping timeout)
  22. # [04:03] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@98.232.9.174)
  23. # [04:06] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@98.232.9.174) (Ping timeout)
  24. # [05:31] * Quits: karl (karlcow@128.30.54.58) (Client exited)
  25. # [05:32] * Joins: karl (karlcow@128.30.54.58)
  26. # [06:25] * Joins: shan (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  27. # [06:26] * Quits: shan (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
  28. # [06:32] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.169)
  29. # [06:55] * Joins: nimbupani (Adium@24.18.47.160)
  30. # [06:56] * Parts: nimbupani (Adium@24.18.47.160)
  31. # [07:25] * Joins: homata (homata@58.158.182.50)
  32. # [08:27] * Joins: nimbupani (Adium@24.18.47.160)
  33. # [08:27] * Quits: nimbupani (Adium@24.18.47.160) (Quit: Leaving.)
  34. # [09:16] * Quits: jdaggett (jdaggett@202.221.217.73) (Quit: jdaggett)
  35. # [10:59] * Quits: lhnz (lhnz@188.223.83.48) (Connection reset by peer)
  36. # [11:00] * Joins: lhnz (lhnz@188.223.83.48)
  37. # [11:17] * Quits: plinss (plinss@68.107.116.23) (Ping timeout)
  38. # [11:34] * Joins: plinss (plinss@68.107.116.23)
  39. # [12:34] * Quits: lhnz (lhnz@188.223.83.48) (Connection reset by peer)
  40. # [12:34] * Joins: lhnz (lhnz@188.223.83.48)
  41. # [12:35] * Quits: homata_ (homata_@58.158.182.50) (Client exited)
  42. # [14:04] * Quits: homata (homata@58.158.182.50) (Quit: Leaving...)
  43. # [14:25] * Joins: jdaggett (jdaggett@118.243.227.145)
  44. # [14:58] * Quits: lhnz (lhnz@188.223.83.48) (Connection reset by peer)
  45. # [14:59] * Joins: lhnz (lhnz@188.223.83.48)
  46. # [15:42] * Joins: nimbupani (Adium@24.18.47.160)
  47. # [15:43] * Parts: nimbupani (Adium@24.18.47.160)
  48. # [16:31] * Joins: nimbupani (Adium@24.18.47.160)
  49. # [16:31] * Quits: nimbupani (Adium@24.18.47.160) (Quit: Leaving.)
  50. # [16:41] * Joins: nimbupani (Adium@71.32.89.167)
  51. # [16:42] * Parts: nimbupani (Adium@71.32.89.167)
  52. # [16:47] * Quits: jdaggett (jdaggett@118.243.227.145) (Quit: jdaggett)
  53. # [17:13] * Joins: Martijnc (Martijnc@84.192.44.100)
  54. # [17:14] * Joins: Martijnc_ (Martijnc@84.192.44.100)
  55. # [17:14] * Quits: Martijnc (Martijnc@84.192.44.100) (Connection reset by peer)
  56. # [17:14] * Martijnc_ is now known as Martijnc
  57. # [17:14] * Joins: murakami (murakami@118.154.209.3)
  58. # [17:27] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@98.232.9.174)
  59. # [17:27] * Quits: Martijnc (Martijnc@84.192.44.100) (Ping timeout)
  60. # [17:27] * Joins: kojiishi (kojiishi@222.158.227.129)
  61. # [17:38] * Joins: Martijnc (Martijnc@84.192.44.100)
  62. # [17:49] * Joins: myakura (myakura@61.203.115.160)
  63. # [17:52] * Quits: murakami (murakami@118.154.209.3) (Quit: Leaving...)
  64. # [17:55] * Joins: TabAtkins_ (tabatkins@216.239.45.4)
  65. # [17:55] * Joins: bradk (bradk@99.7.175.117)
  66. # [17:58] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.169)
  67. # [17:58] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.169)
  68. # [17:58] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/05/11-css-irc
  69. # [17:59] <plinss> zakim, this will be style
  70. # [17:59] <Zakim> ok, plinss; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
  71. # [17:59] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  72. # [17:59] <Zakim> +plinss
  73. # [18:01] <Zakim> + +1.650.214.aaaa
  74. # [18:01] <TabAtkins_> Zakim, aaaa is TabAtkins
  75. # [18:01] <Zakim> +TabAtkins; got it
  76. # [18:02] * Joins: danielweck (dweck2@86.171.48.72)
  77. # [18:02] * Joins: oyvind (oyvinds@213.236.208.22)
  78. # [18:02] <Zakim> +??P32
  79. # [18:03] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  80. # [18:03] <arronei> zakim, microsoft has me
  81. # [18:03] <Zakim> +arronei; got it
  82. # [18:03] <danielweck> Zakim, ??P32is me
  83. # [18:03] <Zakim> I don't understand '??P32is me', danielweck
  84. # [18:03] <danielweck> zakim, ??P32 is me
  85. # [18:03] <Zakim> +danielweck; got it
  86. # [18:03] <Zakim> + +1.206.324.aabb
  87. # [18:03] * Joins: smfr (smfr@17.203.14.12)
  88. # [18:04] <Zakim> +??P37
  89. # [18:04] * Joins: arno (arno@192.150.10.201)
  90. # [18:04] * hober will be late calling in; still on the bus and forgot my iPhone
  91. # [18:04] <Zakim> + +1.408.536.aacc
  92. # [18:04] <arno> zakim, aacc is arno
  93. # [18:04] <Zakim> +arno; got it
  94. # [18:04] <Zakim> -??P37
  95. # [18:05] <Zakim> +smfr
  96. # [18:05] <Zakim> +??P37
  97. # [18:05] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
  98. # [18:05] <kojiishi> zakim, ??p37 is me
  99. # [18:05] <Zakim> +kojiishi; got it
  100. # [18:05] * sylvaing hober, can you even get on an apple shuttle without an iphone ?
  101. # [18:05] * Joins: johnjan (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  102. # [18:05] <johnjan> zakim, microsoft has johnjan
  103. # [18:05] <Zakim> +johnjan; got it
  104. # [18:05] * Joins: cesar (acebal@85.152.178.140)
  105. # [18:05] * hober sylvaing: surprisingly enough, you can. :)
  106. # [18:06] <sylvaing> Zakim, aabb is sylvaing
  107. # [18:06] <Zakim> +sylvaing; got it
  108. # [18:06] <Zakim> +bradk
  109. # [18:07] <Zakim> + +050134aadd
  110. # [18:07] <danielweck> zakim, who am I ?
  111. # [18:07] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, danielweck.
  112. # [18:07] <danielweck> zakim, never mind.
  113. # [18:07] <Zakim> I don't understand 'never mind', danielweck
  114. # [18:07] <Zakim> + +1.415.920.aaee
  115. # [18:08] * Joins: szilles (chatzilla@192.150.10.200)
  116. # [18:08] * Joins: cathy (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  117. # [18:09] <Zakim> +Cathy_Chan
  118. # [18:09] <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
  119. # [18:10] <Zakim> + +1.408.536.aaff
  120. # [18:10] <fantasai> plinss: Any other items for the agenda?
  121. # [18:10] * Joins: murakami (murakami@118.154.209.3)
  122. # [18:10] <fantasai> szilles: WD status for regions?
  123. # [18:10] * Joins: alexmog (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  124. # [18:11] <fantasai> plinss: Kyoto F2F, need agenda items
  125. # [18:11] <fantasai> plinss: Add them earlier so people have time to review and prepare
  126. # [18:11] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/japan-2011
  127. # [18:12] <fantasai> plinss: Bert sent a message that we're missing reviews for CSS2.1
  128. # [18:12] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: Is there a way to see who has sent in a review?
  129. # [18:12] <plinss> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/33280/css21pr/results
  130. # [18:12] <fantasai> plinss: MS, Mozilla, Opera, and Apple have responded
  131. # [18:12] <fantasai> ?: Adobe?
  132. # [18:13] <fantasai> (Nokia and Opera are the others who have responded so far)
  133. # [18:13] <fantasai> plinss: Chris is missing, can't talk about charter
  134. # [18:13] <fantasai> plinss: Is Bert here to talk about website?
  135. # [18:13] <fantasai> plinss: Nope.
  136. # [18:13] <fantasai> plinss: Next is spec annotation system
  137. # [18:14] <fantasai> plinss: Just wanted to get some quick input, discussed on email
  138. # [18:14] * Bert is late, will join in 2 mins.
  139. # [18:14] <fantasai> plinss: Do we want to add this to CSS2.1? Do we want to use moving forward?
  140. # [18:14] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: Would def like to use for specs I edit
  141. # [18:14] <fantasai> szilles: +1
  142. # [18:14] <sylvaing> +1 as well
  143. # [18:14] <fantasai> arronei: Would like for 2.1 and any in the future if possible
  144. # [18:14] <fantasai> plinss: Any objection to adding to CSs2.1?
  145. # [18:15] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Use spec annotation system for CSS2.1 and future specs
  146. # [18:15] <Zakim> + +34.92.38.aagg
  147. # [18:15] <fantasai> topic: CJK longhand styles
  148. # [18:15] <plinss> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Apr/0764.html
  149. # [18:15] * Bert zakim, aagg is me
  150. # [18:15] * Zakim +Bert; got it
  151. # [18:15] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: Some ppl objected to complexity in lists
  152. # [18:15] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: The only complex parts I could potentially remove are the special styles like CJK ones
  153. # [18:16] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: They were defined up to 10^16, which is way more than any impl can do
  154. # [18:16] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: If I limit range to 10^4 I can represent Japanese and Korean styles as additive style
  155. # [18:16] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: And Chinese becomes much simpler
  156. # [18:16] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: I think 10,000 is a reasonable limit here.
  157. # [18:16] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: I wanted to know if anyone wants CJK longhand styles to go beyond
  158. # [18:17] <fantasai> arronei: I think your limit is reasonable, but I don't think it should be a hard limit.
  159. # [18:17] <fantasai> arronei: If a UA wants to go beyond then it should be able to do that.
  160. # [18:17] * Joins: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19)
  161. # [18:17] * glazou is late, internet and phone were down , calling in now
  162. # [18:17] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: When you exceed the range, you drop to a fallback style
  163. # [18:17] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: In this case, drops to cjk-decimal
  164. # [18:17] <Zakim> +??P0
  165. # [18:18] <glazou> Zakim, ??P0 is me
  166. # [18:18] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
  167. # [18:18] <fantasai> bradk: Can't we say that if the UA supports the larger numbers, then they should do it in the more sophisticated way?
  168. # [18:18] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: If I'm not specifying it
  169. # [18:18] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: I either specify a larger range or a shorter range
  170. # [18:18] <fantasai> sylvaing: So once the fallback comes, can you get the proper numbers by more rules?
  171. # [18:18] <fantasai> sylvaing: by specifying ... [????]
  172. # [18:19] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: theoretically
  173. # [18:19] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: Officially, I could go up to 10^5 and still have all the same benefits, it's just 10^6 Japanese and Korean can't be additive, and Chinese gets more complex
  174. # [18:19] <fantasai> sylvaing: I would rather have the spec be clear
  175. # [18:19] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: There are other number systems already in the spec that have similar problems.
  176. # [18:20] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: Hebrew, ex, has ways of expressing numbers beyond the range in the spec right now.
  177. # [18:20] <fantasai> sylvaing: The use case isn't representing all numbers
  178. # [18:20] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: I could potentially go through and identify all the types of lists that have longer representations than I've defined
  179. # [18:20] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: Like circled decimal type, only has 50 Unicode chars. You could always synthesize more
  180. # [18:21] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: But I don't want to make things vague.
  181. # [18:21] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: Going through and explaining how to extend them would be more complexity than people want
  182. # [18:21] <fantasai> bradk: You were talking about putting those in an appendix
  183. # [18:21] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: The definitions are part of the spec in an appendix for ua stylesheet
  184. # [18:22] <fantasai> bradk: If you wanted to go beyond 10,000 you could still recommend what the UA puts in its style sheet
  185. # [18:22] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: If I carve out an exception for CJK longhand
  186. # [18:22] * Zakim fantasai, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
  187. # [18:22] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: That's inconsistent
  188. # [18:22] <cesar> zakim, aadd is me
  189. # [18:22] <Zakim> +cesar; got it
  190. # [18:23] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: We do know how to do it correctly, but nobody wanted to do that.
  191. # [18:23] <fantasai> fantasai: Not true. Webkit implements it in full (though buggy) and Mozilla implements it correctly up to its internal counter limit
  192. # [18:23] <fantasai> s/in full//
  193. # [18:23] <fantasai> bradk: Even if there were some exceptions for e.g. cjk-longhand, I think there'd be some value to have an exception for UAs that want beyond 10,000
  194. # [18:24] <fantasai> bradk: Some UAs in todays world have a problem going beyond such large numbers, but at some point other UAs won't mind
  195. # [18:24] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: So at that point we'll require larger limits
  196. # [18:24] <fantasai> ?: ... that don't want those limits
  197. # [18:24] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: Hardware limits always override anything the spec says
  198. # [18:25] <fantasai> 1) Define cjk counter styles up to 10^16 (full definition)
  199. # [18:25] <fantasai> 2) Define them up to 10,000 (artificially limited to simplify)
  200. # [18:25] <fantasai> 3) Allow both behaviors
  201. # [18:26] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: Note, the full definition is up to 10^68, but usually beyond that you switch to scientific notation
  202. # [18:27] <fantasai> fantasai: But we have a definition for up to 10^16 that we're pretty sure is correct
  203. # [18:27] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: Everybody does counters up to 2^30, some go up to 2^31
  204. # [18:27] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: That's like 10^12
  205. # [18:27] * sylvaing we could allow the e notation for Opera...
  206. # [18:27] <Zakim> +[Apple]
  207. # [18:28] <hober> Zakim, Apple has me
  208. # [18:28] <Zakim> +hober; got it
  209. # [18:28] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: There are only two complex styles left. Ethiopic-numeric and cjk longhand
  210. # [18:28] * Zakim fantasai, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
  211. # [18:29] <fantasai> sylvaing: It's complex for no use case, why would you have such a long list?
  212. # [18:29] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: Most styles defined to infinity, note
  213. # [18:29] <fantasai> bradk: Web is a big place. I'm not sure there aren't lists that go beyond 10,000 or that start at 10,000 and go to 20,000
  214. # [18:29] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: There are other types defined up to infinity
  215. # [18:29] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@17.197.32.11)
  216. # [18:30] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: If I define the CJK styles out more fully, I'll want to define the other styles more fully
  217. # [18:30] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: to be more consistent
  218. # [18:30] <fantasai> ?: 10,000 seems like a reasonable artificial limit especially if we define the fallback for what happens if we go beyond that
  219. # [18:31] <fantasai> s/?/Arno
  220. # [18:31] <fantasai> plinss: I do think 10,000 items in the list is a reasonable limit, but I'm concerned about lists that don't counting at 1
  221. # [18:31] <fantasai> sylvaing: Maybe the use case is someone who has a paged view of a database
  222. # [18:32] <fantasai> sylvaing: You start at 12,000 one a particular page
  223. # [18:32] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: Printouts like that are the only really strong use case for lists that start at large numbers, and you won't use cjk longhand for that
  224. # [18:32] <fantasai> glazou: Use case is email. You can have thousands of email in a list
  225. # [18:33] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: are you going to use CJK numbers for that?
  226. # [18:33] <fantasai> glazou: why not
  227. # [18:34] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: Note that 10,000 and beyond will have a lot of characters, you have around two chars per digit
  228. # [18:34] * hober thinks the Romans got away with a 10K limit :)
  229. # [18:34] <fantasai> glazou: 10,000 is fairly common. 100,000 is more reasonable.
  230. # [18:34] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: I can go to 100,000 and keep things simple as they are
  231. # [18:35] <fantasai> glazou: I think that drastically reduces the risk of problems in the future
  232. # [18:36] <fantasai> sylvaing: ... the use case for high numbers is when you start at a very high number
  233. # [18:36] <fantasai> sylvaing: e.g. a paginated view of database results
  234. # [18:36] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: Is it use case enough that we define how to work those things?
  235. # [18:38] <dsinger> as I said before, we can define conformance out to some reasonable finite limit. well, we have to.
  236. # [18:38] <dsinger> and then if the definition of how to go higher is referenced or provided, UAs are welcome to knock themselves out
  237. # [18:39] <fantasai> fantasai: So we could spend the rest of the call talking about databases, or we could resolve on what to do
  238. # [18:40] <fantasai> 1) Define cjk counter up to 10^16 (full definition that we have ready to go, more than counter hardware limits in place now)
  239. # [18:40] <fantasai> 2) Definte them up to 10,000
  240. # [18:40] <fantasai> 3) Definte them up to 100,000
  241. # [18:40] <fantasai> 4) Put both definitions in the spec, allow UA to implement either, and mark full definition at-risk to see what ppl implement in CR
  242. # [18:41] <fantasai> arronei: I still think that UAs /may/ support up to 100,000 but may support numbers higher and leave it undefined
  243. # [18:42] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: You do have to define it because it's complex and ppl /will/ get it wrong
  244. # [18:42] <fantasai> fantasai: And we have the correct definitions already
  245. # [18:42] <Zakim> -Cathy_Chan
  246. # [18:42] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: I don't want ppl to get fallback in one UA, correct result in another UA, and wrong result in another UA because they got it wrong
  247. # [18:42] <Zakim> -bradk
  248. # [18:43] <dsinger> UAs are always at liberty to exceed requirements. you don't even have to say it
  249. # [18:43] <fantasai> glazou: You can always add a note that CSSWG might define beyond the limit later
  250. # [18:43] <Zakim> +bradk
  251. # [18:44] <fantasai> glazou: Put the definition to 100,000, allow UAs to go beyond, and add the note
  252. # [18:44] <dsinger> I just think it might be safer to define what they should do beyond the conformance limit, if they want to. it can be purely informative text
  253. # [18:44] <fantasai> fantasai: We have tnhe definition, if we're allowing UAs to go beyond the limit, I don't see any reason not to put the definition in the spec
  254. # [18:44] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: I prefer 3, can live with 1
  255. # [18:44] <dsinger> as I say, you can't prohibit people from doing more than is required
  256. # [18:44] <fantasai> 5) Define up to 100,000, allow UA to go beyond it, but DONT put a definition in for beyond 100,000
  257. # [18:45] <fantasai> 6) Definte up 100,000 allow UA to go beyond it, put an informative definition in for byeond 100,000
  258. # [18:45] <fantasai> We'll put a note for all of them
  259. # [18:46] <fantasai> dweck: My knowldge is limited. Abstain
  260. # [18:47] <fantasai> sylvaing: I think 6 works for me
  261. # [18:47] <dsinger> (1) is a testing nightmare, isn't it?
  262. # [18:47] <fantasai> arno: Go with 3, but live with 6
  263. # [18:47] <fantasai> smfr: 6
  264. # [18:47] <Zakim> -danielweck
  265. # [18:47] <smfr> let's give Tab more work :)
  266. # [18:47] <fantasai> koji: I prefer 6
  267. # [18:47] <Zakim> +??P10
  268. # [18:48] <danielweck> zakim, ??P10 is me
  269. # [18:48] <Zakim> +danielweck; got it
  270. # [18:48] <fantasai> arronei: 6
  271. # [18:48] <fantasai> césar: not sure
  272. # [18:48] <fantasai> Bert: no opinion
  273. # [18:48] <fantasai> glazou: 6
  274. # [18:48] <fantasai> bradk: 6
  275. # [18:49] <fantasai> plinss: I prefer 4, could live with 6
  276. # [18:49] <dsinger> dave defers to smfr (he's always right): 6
  277. # [18:49] * Joins: fantasai_ (fantasai@76.14.69.234)
  278. # [18:49] <fantasai_> hober: I prefer 6, but happy for tab to do less work as 3
  279. # [18:49] <fantasai_> szilles: prefer 3, live with 6
  280. # [18:50] <fantasai_> johnjan: prefers 6, very against 2
  281. # [18:50] <fantasai_> fantasai: same as plinss
  282. # [18:51] <fantasai_> RESOLVED: Define up to 100,000 with fallback to cjk-decimal beyond, allow UAs to implement longhand beyond that limit, put definition in informative appendix
  283. # [18:52] <fantasai> RESOLVED http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2011AprJun/0245.html
  284. # [18:52] <fantasai> not, noresolved
  285. # [18:53] * Joins: nimbupani (Adium@24.18.47.160)
  286. # [18:54] * Parts: nimbupani (Adium@24.18.47.160)
  287. # [18:54] <Zakim> -bradk
  288. # [18:54] <fantasai_> fantasai summarizes email
  289. # [18:54] <fantasai_> TabAtkins_: I'm going to want them defined because I need them in FlexBox for similar reasons
  290. # [18:54] <fantasai> fantasai summarizes issues
  291. # [18:54] <Zakim> +bradk
  292. # [18:54] <fantasai_> plinss: I'd like to see these width values advance as quickly as possible
  293. # [18:54] * bradk growls at the darn phone.
  294. # [18:55] * Quits: fantasai (fantasai@69.162.163.148) (Client exited)
  295. # [18:55] * gsnedders oh, so that's what the noise was. :P
  296. # [18:55] * gsnedders isn't actually dialed in
  297. # [18:55] <fantasai_> plinss: My concern is that UAs that don't want to support vertical mode
  298. # [18:56] <Zakim> -bradk
  299. # [18:56] <fantasai_> fantasai_: We can make it explicit that you can implement the module in parts, maybe make profiles
  300. # [18:56] * Joins: fantasai (fantasai@69.162.163.148)
  301. # [18:56] <Zakim> +bradk
  302. # [18:56] <fantasai_> plinss: Is that the best place to put it?
  303. # [18:56] <fantasai_> fantasai: I think so
  304. # [18:57] <fantasai_> [...] Bert: torn between elika and peter, would be hard to split it out
  305. # [18:58] <fantasai_> szilles: We should get it in and get it reviewed
  306. # [18:58] <fantasai_> arronei: put it in values and units?
  307. # [18:58] <fantasai_> fantasai: no, it's very tied to layout
  308. # [18:59] <fantasai_> fantasai: I have to define the concepts in writing modes anyway, I can just say 'btw, here are keywords for this'
  309. # [18:59] <fantasai_> fantasai: Can make a new section for it
  310. # [18:59] <fantasai_> fantasai: right now it's an appendix, could even leave it in the appendix
  311. # [18:59] <fantasai_> szilles: normative appendix sounds good to me
  312. # [18:59] <fantasai_> plinss: and all parts Tab would refer to are in that appendix?
  313. # [18:59] <fantasai_> fantasai: yeah
  314. # [19:00] <fantasai_> fantasai: if you really want to split it out later, let's do it as an editorial change in CR
  315. # [19:00] <szilles> +1 for a normative appendix in Writing Modes
  316. # [19:01] <fantasai_> arronei: make sure it's normative
  317. # [19:01] <fantasai_> arron: I would prefer a separate spec, but not against making it a normative appendix
  318. # [19:01] <fantasai_> szilles: I agree that it really belongs in the Box Module, but it needs to be in something that's progressing faster than the box module.
  319. # [19:02] <fantasai_> szilles: By making it an appendix, it makes it clearer that this is a separable piece that can/might be used elsewhere
  320. # [19:02] <fantasai_> arronei: Maybe add a note that this might be moved to e.g. future version of box module
  321. # [19:02] <fantasai_> RESOLVED: Add these keywords as an appendix, add note that they might be moved
  322. # [19:03] <fantasai_> szilles: Would like to give 1-week notice of request to publish WD of Regions.
  323. # [19:03] <fantasai_> szilles: Exclusions still needs more work.
  324. # [19:03] <fantasai_> szilles: hyatt posted some issues to www-style
  325. # [19:03] <fantasai_> plinss: OK
  326. # [19:03] <fantasai_> Meeting closed.
  327. # [19:03] <Zakim> -danielweck
  328. # [19:03] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  329. # [19:03] <Zakim> -smfr
  330. # [19:03] <Zakim> -arno
  331. # [19:03] <Zakim> -glazou
  332. # [19:03] <Zakim> -[Apple]
  333. # [19:03] <Zakim> -sylvaing
  334. # [19:03] <Zakim> -cesar
  335. # [19:03] <Zakim> -plinss
  336. # [19:04] * Quits: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19) (Quit: glazou)
  337. # [19:04] <Zakim> -kojiishi
  338. # [19:04] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
  339. # [19:04] * Parts: cesar (acebal@85.152.178.140)
  340. # [19:04] <Zakim> - +1.415.920.aaee
  341. # [19:04] <Zakim> - +1.408.536.aaff
  342. # [19:04] <Zakim> -TabAtkins
  343. # [19:04] * Quits: johnjan (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
  344. # [19:04] * Quits: murakami (murakami@118.154.209.3) (Quit: Leaving...)
  345. # [19:04] <Zakim> -Bert
  346. # [19:04] <Zakim> -bradk
  347. # [19:04] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  348. # [19:04] <Zakim> Attendees were plinss, +1.650.214.aaaa, TabAtkins, arronei, danielweck, +1.206.324.aabb, +1.408.536.aacc, arno, smfr, [Microsoft], kojiishi, johnjan, sylvaing, bradk, +050134aadd,
  349. # [19:04] <Zakim> ... +1.415.920.aaee, Cathy_Chan, +1.408.536.aaff, +34.92.38.aagg, Bert, glazou, cesar, hober
  350. # [19:04] * Quits: danielweck (dweck2@86.171.48.72) (Quit: danielweck)
  351. # [19:04] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@17.197.32.11) (Quit: dsinger)
  352. # [19:05] * Parts: smfr (smfr@17.203.14.12)
  353. # [19:05] * Quits: bradk (bradk@99.7.175.117) (Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/ )
  354. # [19:06] * Quits: kojiishi (kojiishi@222.158.227.129) (Quit: Leaving...)
  355. # [19:11] * Quits: TabAtkins_ (tabatkins@216.239.45.4) (Quit: leaving)
  356. # [19:13] * Quits: szilles (chatzilla@192.150.10.200) (Ping timeout)
  357. # [19:19] * Quits: arno (arno@192.150.10.201) (Quit: Leaving.)
  358. # [19:19] * Joins: arno (arno@192.150.10.201)
  359. # [19:28] * Quits: arno (arno@192.150.10.201) (Quit: Leaving.)
  360. # [19:34] * Quits: cathy (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
  361. # [19:46] * Quits: fantasai_ (fantasai@76.14.69.234) (Quit: leaving)
  362. # [19:47] <fantasai> RRSAgent: pointer
  363. # [19:47] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2011/05/11-css-irc#T17-43-57
  364. # [19:47] <fantasai> RRSAgent: make logs public
  365. # [19:47] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, fantasai
  366. # [19:47] <fantasai> RRSAgent: make minutes
  367. # [19:47] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/11-css-minutes.html fantasai
  368. # [20:08] * Joins: szilles (chatzilla@209.133.115.254)
  369. # [20:11] * Quits: szilles (chatzilla@209.133.115.254) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 4.0.1/20110413222027])
  370. # [20:26] <fantasai> why is there a thread called Spec Annotations that talks about gradients?
  371. # [20:26] <fantasai> @_@
  372. # [20:33] * Quits: myakura (myakura@61.203.115.160) (Client exited)
  373. # [20:35] <fantasai> Bert: so, on the topic of the website, how would we go about updating the template for the blog?
  374. # [20:35] <fantasai> Bert: Is that something I can help with?
  375. # [20:35] * fantasai doesn't really understand the make system for the website, but could maybe do that part
  376. # [20:37] * Quits: Martijnc (Martijnc@84.192.44.100) (Quit: Martijnc)
  377. # [21:12] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  378. # [21:12] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.169)
  379. # [21:46] <Bert> Fantasai, there may be nothing to do for the blog.
  380. # [21:46] <Bert> The blog is a "skin" in PHP.
  381. # [21:46] <Bert> I already added a link to the style sheet and it seems to work without any other changes.
  382. # [21:47] * fantasai looks
  383. # [21:47] <fantasai> ?
  384. # [21:48] <Bert> Unless I discover errors, all I have to is remove the word "alternate"
  385. # [21:49] <fantasai> ...
  386. # [21:49] <Bert> Same for all other pages. I'm testing them, but the changes are getting less and less.
  387. # [21:49] <fantasai> Bert, that's not the right style sheet
  388. # [21:49] <Bert> I'm confident I can switch by the ebd of the month.
  389. # [21:49] <fantasai> Bert, that's not the right style sheet
  390. # [21:49] <fantasai> the right style sheet is this one http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/StyleSets/W3CPro/main.css
  391. # [21:50] <Bert> It's called "Main" in the list of styles.
  392. # [21:50] <fantasai> I know
  393. # [21:50] <fantasai> that's not the style sheet for the redesign
  394. # [21:50] <fantasai> Main links to a different style sheet
  395. # [21:51] <Bert> I mainly worked from the zip file.
  396. # [21:51] <fantasai> what zip file?
  397. # [21:51] <fantasai> Why?
  398. # [21:51] <Bert> Still have a frustrating bug with Opera.
  399. # [21:51] <fantasai> BERT!
  400. # [21:51] <fantasai> why did you use the zip file?
  401. # [21:51] <fantasai> why didn't you use the style we resolved on?
  402. # [21:51] <fantasai> why did you change things around so much for no reason??
  403. # [21:51] <Bert> The zip file and the one on dropbox
  404. # [21:52] <fantasai> I don't understand what you used
  405. # [21:53] <fantasai> This is the WG resolution:
  406. # [21:53] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Apr/0429.html
  407. # [21:53] <fantasai> This is the design that was resolved on :http://csswg.inkedblade.net/staging/redesign/index-divya.html
  408. # [21:54] <fantasai> Why are you using anything other than what's there?
  409. # [21:54] <fantasai> I even put it on the W3C server for you!
  410. # [21:54] <Bert> The WG cannot decide on those pages, they aren't the WG's responsability.
  411. # [21:54] <fantasai> See, load the source, the links are to W3C
  412. # [21:55] <fantasai> Whose responsibility are they, then?
  413. # [21:55] <Bert> There were different colors on different browsers, so I had to choose.
  414. # [21:55] <Bert> The W3C Team, and in this case me, because I'm the Style Activity Lead.
  415. # [21:57] <Bert> The pages exist whether or not there are any WGs in that area.
  416. # [21:58] <fantasai> There were differnet colors on different browsers because they have differing levels of CSS support
  417. # [21:58] <fantasai> That's fine
  418. # [21:58] <fantasai> Nothing broke because of it
  419. # [21:58] <fantasai> It was designed to fall back gracefully
  420. # [21:58] <Bert> I also added an @media for very narrow windows, and used the background from http://dl.dropbox.com/u/952/csswg/csswg-onecol.html
  421. # [22:03] <fantasai> Bert, I've repeatedly asked you to explain what the problem is with the style sheet that you had to go change it
  422. # [22:03] <fantasai> so that we could work on it together
  423. # [22:04] <fantasai> and get something that we all agree looks as nice as the original design
  424. # [22:04] <fantasai> you haven't done that
  425. # [22:04] <fantasai> you just went and changed things around
  426. # [22:05] <fantasai> I still don't understand why you think there's a problem with Divya's design
  427. # [22:05] <fantasai> and why we can't just use it
  428. # [22:06] <fantasai> So I request that you post an explanation of why you took the approach you are taking
  429. # [22:06] <fantasai> which is to change the design
  430. # [22:06] <fantasai> without any consultation with either the WG or the original designer
  431. # [22:07] <fantasai> or me, who did a fair bit of technical cleanup on the design
  432. # [22:07] <fantasai> instead of taking the approach of explaining the problems you saw with the design
  433. # [22:07] <Bert> I was hoping Divya would spot the differences without me pointing them out, but so far she hasn't responded, at least not with any remarks about the design.
  434. # [22:08] <fantasai> and working with everyone to solve those problems
  435. # [22:08] <Bert> I can try to make list of the things I changed.
  436. # [22:09] <fantasai> That's not going to help me understand why you changed them
  437. # [22:09] <fantasai> me or the WG
  438. # [22:09] <Bert> Apart from the HTML background and the color of the shadows, they are just implementation details: using em where possible instead of px, not setting the font size, things like that.
  439. # [22:10] <Bert> Certain things where easy to make consistent in most browsers, other things I don't so much care about.
  440. # [22:11] <fantasai> Ok, fine, make an exhaustive list of changes
  441. # [22:11] <fantasai> /with/ explanations
  442. # [22:11] <fantasai> so that I can work it into the style sheets I uploaded to W3C
  443. # [22:12] <fantasai> because those are much easier to understand
  444. # [22:12] <fantasai> they have more comments
  445. # [22:12] <fantasai> they don't use hsl notation so they work in more browsers
  446. # [22:12] <fantasai> they have better indentation
  447. # [22:12] <fantasai> etc.
  448. # [22:13] <fantasai> I still don't understand why you didn't use those style sheets as the base for your work
  449. # [22:13] <fantasai> I really really don't
  450. # [22:16] <fantasai> Bert: Other than using em instead of px and not setting the font size, were there other *problems* with the style sheets?
  451. # [22:17] <fantasai> Bert: Because understanding /why/ you changed things is a lot more useful to me than understanding /what/ you changed.
  452. # [22:37] * Joins: arno (arno@192.150.10.201)
  453. # [22:38] * Quits: arno (arno@192.150.10.201) (Quit: Leaving.)
  454. # [23:31] * Quits: arronei (arronei@131.107.0.85) (Ping timeout)
  455. # [23:31] * Joins: arronei (arronei@131.107.0.81)
  456. # [23:42] * Joins: vhardy (vhardy@192.150.10.201)
  457. # Session Close: Thu May 12 00:00:00 2011

The end :)