/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2011-05-20 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Fri May 20 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #css
  3. # [00:40] * Joins: arno1 (arno@192.150.10.200)
  4. # [00:41] * Quits: arno (arno@192.150.10.200) (Ping timeout)
  5. # [00:52] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.169) (Quit: shepazu)
  6. # [01:08] * Quits: arno1 (arno@192.150.10.200) (Quit: Leaving.)
  7. # [01:11] * Joins: arno (arno@192.150.10.201)
  8. # [03:32] * Joins: jdaggett (jdaggett@202.221.217.73)
  9. # [04:19] * fantasai waves to jdaggett
  10. # [04:19] <jdaggett> hiya
  11. # [04:19] <jdaggett> when do you arrive? late next week?
  12. # [04:21] <fantasai> the day before the meeting
  13. # [04:22] <fantasai> actually
  14. # [04:22] <fantasai> late on the 31st
  15. # [04:22] <fantasai> Newark -> NRT -> ITM
  16. # [04:22] <fantasai> I'll be around the week after, though
  17. # [04:22] <fantasai> Flying home on the 11th from Tokyo
  18. # [04:22] <jdaggett> wow, hard schedule
  19. # [04:22] <fantasai> could've been worse
  20. # [04:22] <jdaggett> "scrape me off the plane and slap me in a meeting"
  21. # [04:23] <fantasai> I /could/ have had to fly the day before
  22. # [04:23] <fantasai> to arrive on the 30th
  23. # [04:23] <fantasai> which would mean a level of sleep deprivation I have rarely experienced outside working on my thesis
  24. # [04:23] <fantasai> :)
  25. # [04:23] <jdaggett> is the flight from NRT to ITM (i.e. not Haneda --> ITM)?
  26. # [04:23] <fantasai> yeah
  27. # [04:24] <jdaggett> that's good
  28. # [04:24] <fantasai> yes!
  29. # [04:24] <fantasai> otherwise I wouldn't make it :P
  30. # [04:25] <jdaggett> yeah, for lots of places in japan, it's easier to fly via korea because you can simply change planes in seoul
  31. # [04:25] <jdaggett> rather than hassling with NRT to HND
  32. # [04:25] <jdaggett> crazy
  33. # [04:26] <fantasai> huh, yeah
  34. # [04:30] <jdaggett> just sent a correction regarding the minutes
  35. # [04:30] <jdaggett> i think you really want to stay in tokyo the whole time
  36. # [05:47] * Quits: jdaggett (jdaggett@202.221.217.73) (Quit: jdaggett)
  37. # [05:47] * Joins: jdaggett (jdaggett@202.221.217.73)
  38. # [07:07] * Quits: hober (ted@174.143.153.77) (Client exited)
  39. # [07:07] * Joins: hober (ted@174.143.153.77)
  40. # [07:44] <fantasai> jdaggett: oh, oops
  41. # [07:45] <jdaggett> hehe
  42. # [07:45] <jdaggett> funny how some things become habits...
  43. # [07:45] <fantasai> probably doesn't help that they're the same two syllables swapped around :)
  44. # [07:48] <jdaggett> well, the kyo part is the same in both words, "capital"
  45. # [07:48] <fantasai> yeah
  46. # [07:48] <fantasai> I know :)
  47. # [07:49] <fantasai> it's the same as the "jing" in Beijing
  48. # [07:53] <jdaggett> btw, you must go here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ry%C5%8Dan-ji
  49. # [08:12] * Joins: homata (homata@113.34.70.146)
  50. # [08:13] * Quits: homata___ (homata@58.158.182.50) (Ping timeout)
  51. # [08:26] <fantasai> ok
  52. # [08:26] <fantasai> :)
  53. # [08:32] * Joins: homata_ (homata@58.158.182.50)
  54. # [08:33] * Quits: homata (homata@113.34.70.146) (Ping timeout)
  55. # [08:33] * Joins: homata (homata@58.158.182.50)
  56. # [08:33] * Quits: homata (homata@58.158.182.50) (Connection reset by peer)
  57. # [08:35] * Quits: homata_ (homata@58.158.182.50) (Ping timeout)
  58. # [08:50] * Joins: homata (homata@113.34.70.146)
  59. # [10:17] * Quits: jdaggett (jdaggett@202.221.217.73) (Quit: jdaggett)
  60. # [10:24] * Joins: homata_ (homata@58.158.182.50)
  61. # [10:26] * Quits: homata (homata@113.34.70.146) (Ping timeout)
  62. # [10:59] * Joins: szilles (chatzilla@85.86.191.226)
  63. # [11:12] * Quits: homata_ (homata@58.158.182.50) (Quit: Leaving...)
  64. # [11:13] * Quits: szilles (chatzilla@85.86.191.226) (Ping timeout)
  65. # [11:18] * Joins: homata (homata@58.158.182.50)
  66. # [13:08] * Quits: homata (homata@58.158.182.50) (Quit: Leaving...)
  67. # [15:14] * Joins: Ms2ger (Ms2ger@91.181.12.117)
  68. # [15:19] * Quits: unomi (unomi@125.26.199.82) (Ping timeout)
  69. # [15:23] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@74.103.171.70)
  70. # [15:33] * Joins: unomi (unomi@125.26.199.82)
  71. # [16:30] * Joins: Martijnc (Martijnc@84.192.44.100)
  72. # [16:44] * Quits: Ms2ger (Ms2ger@91.181.12.117) (Quit: bbl)
  73. # [18:02] * Joins: arronei (arronei@131.107.0.71)
  74. # [18:03] * Quits: arronei_ (arronei@131.107.0.81) (Ping timeout)
  75. # [19:05] * Quits: arno (arno@192.150.10.201) (Quit: Leaving.)
  76. # [19:08] * Quits: arronei (arronei@131.107.0.71) (Quit: arronei)
  77. # [19:14] * Joins: arronei (arronei@131.107.0.109)
  78. # [19:38] * Joins: arno (arno@192.150.10.201)
  79. # [19:38] * Quits: arno (arno@192.150.10.201) (Quit: Leaving.)
  80. # [19:51] <TabAtkins> Bert: The preprocessor is stripping the alt attributes off my images. I assume this is because I'm using the boolean syntax, since it's just empty alts.
  81. # [19:51] * Joins: arno (arno@192.150.10.201)
  82. # [19:56] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.169)
  83. # [20:04] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.169) (Quit: shepazu)
  84. # [20:04] <TabAtkins> fantasai: I've run through pubrules and it seems fine - the only complaints were things about generating as WD (I don't commit the voodoo to make the preprocessor generate correctly to my brain), and some dumb errors about the capitalization of SotD and ToC that the preprocessor makes.
  85. # [20:45] <fantasai> TabAtkins: ok, I'll run the voodoo for you
  86. # [21:01] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Alright, your draft is prepped for 24 May 2011
  87. # [21:01] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-lists/
  88. # [21:02] <fantasai> Bert: The preprocessor's property-index generator is not working well with the descriptors in Tab's draft. Not sure what's the right way to fix it, probably they should be excluded from the property table...
  89. # [21:02] * fantasai studies css3-fonts
  90. # [21:03] <fantasai> TabAtkins: jdaggett uses class="descref" instead of "propdef" for his descriptors
  91. # [21:08] * fantasai tries this
  92. # [21:11] <fantasai> ok, that worked
  93. # [21:11] <fantasai> now to fix the 'display' propdef
  94. # [21:11] * fantasai copies pattern from css3-ui
  95. # [21:12] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@74.103.171.70) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  96. # [21:21] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Dude, you are missing all kinds of fields from your propdef tables >:/
  97. # [21:25] * fantasai finally gets a working property index table
  98. # [21:28] <fantasai> ok, I guess that's good enough
  99. # [21:31] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Check the diffs? http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/csswg/css3-lists/Overview.src.html
  100. # [21:57] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Looks good to me. I didn't realize descdef was a thing either.
  101. # [22:23] <fantasai> TabAtkins: ok, shall I send in the pub request?
  102. # [22:24] <TabAtkins> Yes please! Also cc me, so maybe I can do this in the future instead of being a baby and getting you to do it for me?
  103. # [22:24] <fantasai> Of course I'll CC you!
  104. # [22:25] * fantasai runs pubrules checker to make sure it's all good
  105. # [22:26] <fantasai> uh
  106. # [22:26] <fantasai> it's throwing an exception
  107. # [22:26] <fantasai> ~_~
  108. # [22:26] <TabAtkins> Try it again. I had to hit it twice.
  109. # [22:27] <fantasai> Nope, not working
  110. # [22:27] <TabAtkins> Okay, well I've got another copy up.
  111. # [22:28] <fantasai> ?
  112. # [22:28] <TabAtkins> I mean that I was able to get it working, so I'm looking at the results right now.
  113. # [22:29] * fantasai just runs regular validation
  114. # [22:29] <TabAtkins> The results are simply that I either fail with 1 error in HTML4 validation mode, or like 8 in HTML5.
  115. # [22:29] <TabAtkins> (The 8 are the fault of the preprocessor.)
  116. # [22:30] <fantasai> Bert: Can you remove 'valign=baseline' from the propdef tables, please? It's deprecated, use 'vertical-align' :)
  117. # [22:30] <TabAtkins> The CSSWG stylesheet uses background-clip, which is not part of 2.1, so we fail CSS validation according to pubrules. ^_^
  118. # [22:30] <TabAtkins> And that's it.
  119. # [22:30] <fantasai> yeah, that's a bug
  120. # [22:30] <fantasai> in the validator
  121. # [22:31] * fantasai tries to get the HTML to validate, at least
  122. # [22:31] <TabAtkins> HTML validation is easy. Just switch the preprocessor to not output @valign, and use <abbr> instead of <acronym>
  123. # [22:32] <fantasai> yeah, well, I can't do that right now :)
  124. # [22:32] <TabAtkins> We can do those fixes manually for the purpose of publishing if necessary.
  125. # [22:33] <fantasai> OK, should validate
  126. # [22:33] * fantasai switched it to HTML 4.01
  127. # [22:33] <TabAtkins> type="css", fantasai? Really?
  128. # [22:33] <fantasai> it's required in HTML4
  129. # [22:33] <TabAtkins> type=text/css
  130. # [22:33] <fantasai> oh
  131. # [22:33] <fantasai> how'd that validate??
  132. # [22:34] <TabAtkins> It shouldn't have. The html5 validator barfs on it.
  133. # [22:34] <fantasai> yeah, hsivonen's a lot more thorough ^_^
  134. # [22:34] <fantasai> ok, should be fixed
  135. # [22:34] <TabAtkins> Yup.
  136. # [22:35] <fantasai> Alrighty then, let's send this over
  137. # [22:38] * Quits: Martijnc (Martijnc@84.192.44.100) (Quit: Martijnc)
  138. # [22:39] * fantasai collects the files, fixes the stylesheet link, etc
  139. # [22:44] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Fiddling with Images again. I don't like the way we're preventing nested image(). The way it's written, only a whitelist of <image> types are allowed in the final fallback, which means we'll have to keep it updated.
  140. # [22:45] <TabAtkins> I'd rather just say "<color> | <image>", and then disallow image() in the prose.
  141. # [22:46] <TabAtkins> It's also too restrictive - the way you rewrote it, <image-combination> isn't allowed, even if there's no reference to image() in the arguments to cross-fade().
  142. # [22:50] <fantasai> TabAtkins: why wouldn't you just cross-fade(image(),image()) in that case?
  143. # [22:51] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I see what you mean about updates, let me think on that a bit
  144. # [22:51] <TabAtkins> I'm not saying you wouldn't. I'm saying that as it's written, you can't do an image("foo", cross-fade(url("bar"), blue, 50%)) or something.
  145. # [22:51] <fantasai> is that useful?
  146. # [22:52] <TabAtkins> It's not clearly useless, and I don't think there's any simplicity benefits from disallowing it.
  147. # [22:53] <fantasai> I'd ask dbaron on that
  148. # [22:53] <fantasai> I don't work on the parser/data side
  149. # [22:54] <TabAtkins> Well, I'll say that you don't gain anything from disallowing that while allowing, say, nested cross-fade()s.
  150. # [22:54] <fantasai> we allow nested cross-fade()s?
  151. # [22:54] <fantasai> ~_~
  152. # [22:54] <TabAtkins> Sure. An image is an image.
  153. # [22:54] <fantasai> do we have to?
  154. # [22:54] <TabAtkins> Why wouldn't you?
  155. # [22:54] <TabAtkins> It lets you fade three images together.
  156. # [22:55] <fantasai> Hm.
  157. # [22:55] <fantasai> I
  158. # [22:55] <fantasai> I'd like to get implementer feedback on all this nesting stuff
  159. # [22:56] <fantasai> If it's easy, fine
  160. # [22:56] <fantasai> if it's extra work, I'd like to keep nesting out of this level
  161. # [22:56] <fantasai> it's definitely more complicated to test
  162. # [22:56] <TabAtkins> Other than the fact that more image manipulation = more CPU load, there's no problem from doing so.
  163. # [22:56] <TabAtkins> Sure.
  164. # [22:56] <fantasai> It's definitely possible to extend in that direction in the future
  165. # [22:57] <TabAtkins> But if we disallow nested cross-fades, you can still, say, filter() a cross-fade(), or vice versa, which is roughly equivalent in difficulty.
  166. # [22:57] <fantasai> so I'm kindof biased towards not allowing nesting
  167. # [22:57] <TabAtkins> I'm biased toward not putting in artificial restrictions just because it makes testing more difficult.
  168. # [22:57] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I think you should ask Arron about that. He might disagree
  169. # [22:58] * fantasai doesn't see filter() in this draft
  170. # [22:58] <TabAtkins> We'd have to invent a notion of a <plain-image> versus <constructed-image> or something, and only allow some functions to take <plain-image> as arguments.
  171. # [22:58] <TabAtkins> No, filter() will be in Filters.
  172. # [22:58] <fantasai> good
  173. # [22:58] <fantasai> :)
  174. # [22:58] <TabAtkins> Along with maybe noise(), I dunno.
  175. # [22:58] <fantasai> I was like, I think we have enough crazy stuff here already!
  176. # [22:58] <TabAtkins> noise() won't be in this draft, at least.
  177. # [22:58] <TabAtkins> Either Filters or Images 4.
  178. # [23:03] <fantasai> TabAtkins: actually...
  179. # [23:03] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I think we should also remove <element-reference> from image()
  180. # [23:04] <TabAtkins> Really? Why?
  181. # [23:04] <fantasai> why would you fall back to an element reference?
  182. # [23:04] <TabAtkins> What do you gain from removing it?
  183. # [23:05] <fantasai> simplicity
  184. # [23:05] <fantasai> I'm kindof thinking we should remove everything except <image-decl> and <color>
  185. # [23:05] <fantasai> the last is only there to provide enough contrast in case stuff fails
  186. # [23:05] <TabAtkins> That's silly. Then I can't fall back to a gradient, for example.
  187. # [23:06] <fantasai> you're already in a failure mode if your images don't load
  188. # [23:06] <fantasai> if you can fall back to a gradient, then why not fall back to a full <background> declaration
  189. # [23:07] <fantasai> where you can create whatever image you want with gradients?
  190. # [23:07] <fantasai> like
  191. # [23:07] <fantasai> that's not the point here
  192. # [23:07] <fantasai> the only reason <color> is there is to provide adequate contrast
  193. # [23:07] <fantasai> in case images are turned of or don't load
  194. # [23:07] <TabAtkins> Hm. Actually, I'd probably be okay with dropping down to that level of simplicity.
  195. # [23:07] <fantasai> Ok, let's do that.
  196. # [23:08] <fantasai> We can add things back in CSS4 if we find it's really really needed
  197. # [23:08] <TabAtkins> I just didn't like the seemingly-artificial distinctions in what types of images were allowed.
  198. # [23:08] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
  199. # [23:10] <fantasai> k, css3-lists pub request sent
  200. # [23:11] <TabAtkins> Thank you!
  201. # [23:11] <fantasai> Good job with the module!
  202. # [23:11] <fantasai> It's way more coherent and awesome now :)
  203. # [23:12] <fantasai> But, definitely needs another cycle or two of WD-level review :)
  204. # [23:12] <fantasai> I noticed a bunch of stuff while scanning through it
  205. # [23:15] <TabAtkins> Yeah, definitely. I just think it's feature-complete now, so I'm happy.
  206. # [23:15] <hober> yay
  207. # [23:18] <fantasai> yeah
  208. # Session Close: Sat May 21 00:00:00 2011

The end :)