/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2011-07-06 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Jul 06 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  30. # [17:29] * Joins: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19)
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  32. # [17:30] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.169)
  33. # [17:30] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/07/06-css-irc
  34. # [17:30] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
  35. # [17:30] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 35 minutes
  36. # [17:30] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs publoc
  37. # [17:30] <RRSAgent> glazou, access must be one of public, world, memberEditors, memberSearchers, wsridirectors, member, i18n, mlw, w3f, offices, alumni, team, HEADER.html, ab, valid, or wstar
  38. # [17:30] <glazou> make logs public
  39. # [17:30] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
  40. # [17:30] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
  41. # [17:31] <glazou> hi kojiishi
  42. # [17:33] * Joins: Florianr (florianr@114.180.107.109)
  43. # [17:34] * Parts: davve (davve@83.218.67.122) (Killed buffer)
  44. # [17:36] <anne> I cannot make it today.
  45. # [17:37] <anne> As for an update. Bert is not around so FPWD request for CSSOM has not been made yet. I suppose I could do that myself, but not before this week is over.
  46. # [17:43] <Bert> Hi Anne, I'm back.
  47. # [17:43] <glazou> lol
  48. # [17:43] <Bert> I'm just finishing the e-mail to plh and chairs@w3.org about CSSOM
  49. # [17:44] <glazou> anne: you dismissed most of my proposals (css om issues) but they are REALLY needed for content editors
  50. # [17:44] <glazou> and I disagree with them dismissed if the WG has no opportunity to discuss them
  51. # [17:45] <glazou> you just have no idea how important they are for editors
  52. # [17:46] <anne> Why is the WG not discussing them then?
  53. # [17:46] <anne> That's what the mailing list is for, no?
  54. # [17:47] <glazou> because that's my job to ask the WG to discuss them during a conf call ?
  55. # [17:47] <anne> Also, I'm somewhat familiar with editors. A lot of my friends are involved with writing editors of some kind.
  56. # [17:47] <glazou> I was waiting for your input first
  57. # [17:47] <glazou> good ; when they reach their 6th or 7th one, let me know :-)
  58. # [17:47] <anne> Wouldn't it be better to discuss this on the list?
  59. # [17:48] <glazou> well, yes, but your mail just closed the discussion, it's too firm
  60. # [17:48] <glazou> you're the editor, not the decider
  61. # [17:48] <anne> I think Xopus has about four major iterations. Not sure about Silk.
  62. # [17:48] <anne> Well if people disagree they should feel free to say so, certainly.
  63. # [17:49] <glazou> or agree
  64. # [17:49] <anne> I just don't think CSSOM is at the stage where we should add features.
  65. # [17:49] <anne> Well, more features.
  66. # [17:50] <glazou> I just disagree at least for the disabled attribute on <link> and <style>
  67. # [17:50] <anne> There are so much open questions that need implementation experience and implementors looking at them.
  68. # [17:50] <glazou> oh come on, we standardize things in CSS before implem
  69. # [17:50] <glazou> and w/o implem experience
  70. # [17:50] <glazou> that argument is not receivable
  71. # [17:50] <anne> Yes, but these are already implemented
  72. # [17:51] <glazou> nope
  73. # [17:51] <anne> So we need to see what can be changed and how, and what the constraints are
  74. # [17:51] <glazou> you want to discuss the constraints on disabled ? let'd do that :-)
  75. # [17:51] <glazou> let's
  76. # [17:51] <glazou> trivial
  77. # [17:52] <glazou> for the rest, ok, that requires implementors' input
  78. # [17:52] <anne> I'm talking about the bigger picture, not the disabled attribute in particular ;)
  79. # [17:52] <glazou> the bigger picture is easy, anne
  80. # [17:52] <anne> The disabled attribute would need to be added to HTML and the xml-stylesheet specification
  81. # [17:52] <glazou> the CSS OM is almost unusable in some parts, given the mess it is
  82. # [17:52] <anne> Well I disagree
  83. # [17:52] <anne> It's pretty complex
  84. # [17:52] <glazou> if we write a new iteration of CSS OM that is not immediately nicer and cleaner
  85. # [17:52] <glazou> that's not worth it
  86. # [17:53] <glazou> I can probably implement the disabled attribute in Gecko in 2 hours
  87. # [17:53] <glazou> tests included
  88. # [17:53] <glazou> anyway
  89. # [17:54] <anne> Anyway, writing a new iteration of the CSSOM is about making it more interoperable first
  90. # [17:54] <anne> Just adding a bunch of features is not going to help existing implementations
  91. # [17:54] <glazou> then we disagree on the goal
  92. # [17:54] <anne> It will only make it more of a mess
  93. # [17:55] <anne> It does have some new features, like the value API, but it requires updating the other APIs as well as they are all intertwined
  94. # [17:55] <anne> So the faster we get that done, the faster we can move on to new things
  95. # [17:55] <glazou> we'll see
  96. # [17:56] * Joins: Kimberly (Kimberly@68.63.100.78)
  97. # [17:58] <anne> I'm sure we will :)
  98. # [17:58] <anne> Going for dinner now, have a good meeting!
  99. # [18:00] <glazou> Zakim, code?
  100. # [18:00] <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), glazou
  101. # [18:01] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  102. # [18:01] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  103. # [18:01] * Joins: dsinger_ (dsinger@67.218.107.233)
  104. # [18:01] <arronei_> zakim, microsoft is me
  105. # [18:01] <Zakim> +arronei_; got it
  106. # [18:01] <Zakim> +??P24
  107. # [18:01] <Florianr> Zakim, I am P24
  108. # [18:01] <Zakim> sorry, Florianr, I do not see a party named 'P24'
  109. # [18:02] * Quits: dsinger_ (dsinger@67.218.107.233) (Quit: Rooms • iPhone IRC Client • http://www.roomsapp.mobi)
  110. # [18:02] <Zakim> +??P42
  111. # [18:02] <Zakim> + +1.206.552.aaaa
  112. # [18:02] <Kimberly> Zakim, I am P42
  113. # [18:02] <Zakim> sorry, Kimberly, I do not see a party named 'P42'
  114. # [18:02] <Zakim> +??P45
  115. # [18:02] <glazou> Zakim, ??P45 is me
  116. # [18:02] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
  117. # [18:02] <Kimberly> Zakim, I am ??P42
  118. # [18:02] <Zakim> +Kimberly; got it
  119. # [18:02] <glazou> eheh kojiishi
  120. # [18:02] <glazou> er
  121. # [18:02] <Florianr> Zakim, I am ??P24
  122. # [18:02] <Zakim> +Florianr; got it
  123. # [18:02] <glazou> eheh Kimberly
  124. # [18:02] * Joins: jdaggett (jdaggett@69.181.221.22)
  125. # [18:02] <glazou> Zakim's pretty strict on syntac
  126. # [18:02] <Zakim> +dsinger
  127. # [18:03] * Joins: dsinger_ (dsinger@67.218.107.233)
  128. # [18:03] <glazou> syntaX even
  129. # [18:03] <dsinger_> zakim, mute dsinger
  130. # [18:03] <Zakim> dsinger should now be muted
  131. # [18:03] * Quits: dsinger_ (dsinger@67.218.107.233) (Quit: Rooms • iPhone IRC Client • http://www.roomsapp.mobi)
  132. # [18:03] <kojiishi> hi glazou
  133. # [18:03] <Zakim> -dsinger
  134. # [18:03] <Zakim> +dsinger
  135. # [18:03] <glazou> hi kojiishi, did you see our last announcement about BlueGriffon ?
  136. # [18:03] * Joins: dsinger_ (dsinger@67.218.107.233)
  137. # [18:03] <Zakim> +??P48
  138. # [18:03] <dsinger_> zakim, mute dsinger
  139. # [18:03] <Zakim> dsinger should now be muted
  140. # [18:03] * Joins: Cathy (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  141. # [18:03] <kojiishi> ah...sorry, no. I will.
  142. # [18:03] <Kimberly> Salut glazou
  143. # [18:04] <dsinger_> zakim, who is here?
  144. # [18:04] <Zakim> On the phone I see arronei_, Florianr, Kimberly, +1.206.552.aaaa, glazou, dsinger (muted), ??P48
  145. # [18:04] <Zakim> On IRC I see Cathy, dsinger_, jdaggett, Kimberly, Florianr, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, kojiishi, nimbu, Ms2ger, Bert, Florian, karl, arronei_, anne, shepazu, krijnh, plinss,
  146. # [18:04] <glazou> bonjour Kimberly
  147. # [18:04] <Zakim> ... fantasai, lhnz, Hixie, TabAtkins, CSSWG_LogBot, jgraham, trackbot, gsnedders, hober
  148. # [18:04] <kojiishi> zakim, ??p48 is me
  149. # [18:04] <Zakim> +kojiishi; got it
  150. # [18:04] <Zakim> +plinss
  151. # [18:04] <Ms2ger> Bonjour Zakim
  152. # [18:04] * Joins: bradk (bradk@99.7.175.117)
  153. # [18:04] <glazou> kojiishi: http://bluegriffon.org/post/2011/07/05/BlueGriffon-EPUB-Edition
  154. # [18:04] <nimbu> Zakim: +1.206.522.aaaa is me
  155. # [18:04] * Joins: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.169)
  156. # [18:04] <Zakim> +[Apple]
  157. # [18:04] <glazou> who is nimbu ?
  158. # [18:04] <hober> Zakim, Apple has hober
  159. # [18:04] <Zakim> +hober; got it
  160. # [18:04] <nimbu> divya manian glazou
  161. # [18:04] <glazou> welcome !
  162. # [18:04] <nimbu> :)
  163. # [18:04] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  164. # [18:05] * Quits: dsinger_ (dsinger@67.218.107.233) (Quit: Rooms • iPhone IRC Client • http://www.roomsapp.mobi)
  165. # [18:05] <kojiishi> glazou: wow! wonderful!
  166. # [18:05] * Joins: JohnJan (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  167. # [18:05] <glazou> :)
  168. # [18:05] <Zakim> -dsinger
  169. # [18:05] <JohnJan> Zakim, microsoft has JohnJn
  170. # [18:05] <JohnJan> Zakim, microsoft has JohnJan
  171. # [18:05] <glazou> kojiishi: should be almost alone on the market...
  172. # [18:05] <Zakim> +JohnJn; got it
  173. # [18:05] <Zakim> +JohnJan; got it
  174. # [18:05] * Joins: dsinger_ (dsinger@67.218.107.233)
  175. # [18:05] * Quits: dsinger_ (dsinger@67.218.107.233) (Quit: Rooms • iPhone IRC Client • http://www.roomsapp.mobi)
  176. # [18:05] * Quits: Florian (Florian@58.1.224.28) (Ping timeout)
  177. # [18:06] <Zakim> -Florianr
  178. # [18:06] <Zakim> +bradk
  179. # [18:06] <glazou> Zakim, who is on the phone ?
  180. # [18:06] <Zakim> +??P29
  181. # [18:06] <Zakim> On the phone I see arronei_, Kimberly, +1.206.552.aaaa, glazou, kojiishi, plinss, [Apple], [Microsoft], bradk, ??P29
  182. # [18:06] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has JohnJan
  183. # [18:06] <jdaggett> zakim, ??p29 is me
  184. # [18:06] <Zakim> [Apple] has hober
  185. # [18:06] <nimbu> zakim, +1.206.522.aaaa is me
  186. # [18:06] <Zakim> +ChrisL
  187. # [18:06] <nimbu> :(
  188. # [18:06] <Zakim> +??P30
  189. # [18:06] <Zakim> +jdaggett; got it
  190. # [18:06] <Zakim> sorry, nimbu, I do not recognize a party named '+1.206.522.aaaa'
  191. # [18:06] <glazou> Zakim, aaaa is nimbu
  192. # [18:07] * Joins: dsinger_ (dsinger@67.218.107.233)
  193. # [18:07] <dsinger_> zakim, mute dsinger
  194. # [18:07] <Zakim> +nimbu; got it
  195. # [18:07] <Zakim> +dsinger
  196. # [18:07] <nimbu> thanks glazou!
  197. # [18:07] * Quits: Florianr (florianr@114.180.107.109) (Ping timeout)
  198. # [18:07] <Zakim> dsinger should now be muted
  199. # [18:07] <Zakim> +??P43
  200. # [18:07] * dsinger_ fun with AT&T stoping me repeatedly
  201. # [18:07] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@173.228.28.228)
  202. # [18:07] * dsinger_ dropping me
  203. # [18:07] <Zakim> -??P30
  204. # [18:07] <Zakim> +SteveZ
  205. # [18:07] <glazou> kojiishi: should be ready after the summer
  206. # [18:08] <dsinger_> zakim, who is here?
  207. # [18:08] <Zakim> On the phone I see arronei_, Kimberly, nimbu, glazou, kojiishi, plinss, [Apple], [Microsoft], bradk, jdaggett, ChrisL, dsinger (muted), ??P43, SteveZ
  208. # [18:08] * Joins: Florian (Florian@58.1.224.28)
  209. # [18:08] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has JohnJan
  210. # [18:08] <Zakim> [Apple] has hober
  211. # [18:08] <Zakim> On IRC I see dbaron, dsinger_, JohnJan, ChrisL, bradk, Cathy, jdaggett, Kimberly, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, kojiishi, nimbu, Ms2ger, Bert, karl, arronei_, anne, shepazu, krijnh,
  212. # [18:08] <fantasai> zakim, mute ??P30
  213. # [18:08] <Zakim> ... plinss, fantasai, lhnz, Hixie, TabAtkins, CSSWG_LogBot, jgraham, trackbot, gsnedders, hober
  214. # [18:08] * Joins: smfr (smfr@173.228.90.67)
  215. # [18:08] <Zakim> +Bert
  216. # [18:08] <Zakim> +dbaron
  217. # [18:08] <Zakim> sorry, fantasai, I do not know which phone connection belongs to ??P30
  218. # [18:08] <fantasai> zakim, mute P30
  219. # [18:08] <Zakim> sorry, fantasai, I do not know which phone connection belongs to P30
  220. # [18:08] * glazou Anne said he cannot make the call
  221. # [18:08] * dsinger_ who is p43?
  222. # [18:08] <Zakim> +??P2
  223. # [18:08] * dbaron Zakim, who is on the phone?
  224. # [18:08] <fantasai> zakim, mute P43
  225. # [18:08] * Zakim sees on the phone: arronei_, Kimberly, nimbu, glazou, kojiishi, plinss, [Apple], [Microsoft], bradk, jdaggett, ChrisL, dsinger (muted), ??P43, SteveZ, Bert, dbaron, ??P2
  226. # [18:08] * Zakim [Microsoft] has JohnJan
  227. # [18:08] * Zakim [Apple] has hober
  228. # [18:09] <Zakim> sorry, fantasai, I do not know which phone connection belongs to P43
  229. # [18:09] <Zakim> +smfr
  230. # [18:09] <fantasai> zakim, mute ?P43
  231. # [18:09] <Zakim> sorry, fantasai, I do not know which phone connection belongs to ?P43
  232. # [18:09] <fantasai> zakim, mute ??P43
  233. # [18:09] <Zakim> ??P43 should now be muted
  234. # [18:09] <fantasai> zakim, ??P43 is fantasai
  235. # [18:09] <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
  236. # [18:09] <fantasai> zakim, unmute me
  237. # [18:09] <Zakim> fantasai should no longer be muted
  238. # [18:10] * dsinger_ smfr?
  239. # [18:10] * Joins: Florianr (florianr@114.181.159.79)
  240. # [18:10] * dbaron Zakim, ??P2 is Florian
  241. # [18:10] * Zakim +Florian; got it
  242. # [18:10] * dbaron Zakim, who is on the phone?
  243. # [18:10] * Zakim sees on the phone: arronei_, Kimberly, nimbu, glazou, kojiishi, plinss, [Apple], [Microsoft], bradk, jdaggett, ChrisL, dsinger (muted), fantasai, SteveZ, Bert, dbaron, Florian,
  244. # [18:10] * Zakim ... smfr
  245. # [18:10] * Zakim [Microsoft] has JohnJan
  246. # [18:10] * Zakim [Apple] has hober
  247. # [18:10] <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
  248. # [18:11] <fantasai> Topic: Additional items
  249. # [18:11] <fantasai> jdaggett: font same-origin restriction
  250. # [18:11] <fantasai> Topic: Media Fragments
  251. # [18:11] <fantasai> glazou: I sent email to list about that
  252. # [18:12] <fantasai> glazou: dbaron asked why I sent the message
  253. # [18:12] <fantasai> glazou: just to make sure my opinion reported to HCG was not only mine
  254. # [18:12] <fantasai> glazou: The question was about image fragments, e.g. for backgrounds
  255. # [18:13] <fantasai> glazou: can we use fragments to pick out a frame or piece of the image
  256. # [18:13] * Joins: alexmog (alexmog@24.16.133.35)
  257. # [18:13] <fantasai> glazou: to use as an image
  258. # [18:13] <dsinger_> Exactly. We allow it's use IF it is defined for the media type
  259. # [18:13] <fantasai> glazou: issue is whether that is defined in CSS or elsewhere
  260. # [18:14] <fantasai> chrisl: CSS isn't defining it, it's by normative reference to media fragments
  261. # [18:14] <Zakim> -dsinger
  262. # [18:14] <fantasai> ChrisL: I agree that the media type should define what the fragments mean
  263. # [18:14] * Quits: dsinger_ (dsinger@67.218.107.233) (Quit: Rooms • iPhone IRC Client • http://www.roomsapp.mobi)
  264. # [18:14] <fantasai> ChrisL: Although they should, they often don't
  265. # [18:14] * Joins: dsinger_ (dsinger@67.218.107.233)
  266. # [18:14] <fantasai> glazou: We cannot serve as a substitute for other committees' specs
  267. # [18:14] <dsinger_> The question is whether a conformant CSS client is required to notice and process them
  268. # [18:14] * Quits: dsinger_ (dsinger@67.218.107.233) (Quit: Rooms • iPhone IRC Client • http://www.roomsapp.mobi)
  269. # [18:15] <Zakim> +dsinger
  270. # [18:15] * Joins: dsinger_ (dsinger@67.218.107.233)
  271. # [18:15] <fantasai> glazou: Each media type should define things for itself
  272. # [18:15] <ChrisL> http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-media-frags-20110317/#media-fragment-syntax
  273. # [18:15] <fantasai> fantasai: Right, but we need the spec that's supposed to define things to define things
  274. # [18:16] <dsinger_> zakim, mute dsinger
  275. # [18:16] <Zakim> dsinger should now be muted
  276. # [18:16] <fantasai> fantasai: I don't understand what the issue is
  277. # [18:16] <fantasai> glazou: The issue is that we don't have to define what means a fragment identifier in URL notation.
  278. # [18:16] <dsinger_> zakim, unmute me
  279. # [18:16] <Zakim> sorry, dsinger_, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
  280. # [18:16] <dsinger_> zakim, unmute dsinger
  281. # [18:16] <Zakim> dsinger should no longer be muted
  282. # [18:17] <fantasai> fantasai: Is media fragments going to define it?
  283. # [18:17] <dsinger_> zakim, mute dsinger
  284. # [18:17] <Zakim> dsinger should now be muted
  285. # [18:17] <fantasai> dsinger: We just have to define what happens when you use it in CSS
  286. # [18:17] <fantasai> ChrisL: Which is what we do already. So let's close the issue
  287. # [18:17] * fantasai is so confused
  288. # [18:17] <Kimberly> No objection
  289. # [18:17] * Joins: danielweck (dweck2@86.158.24.122)
  290. # [18:17] <fantasai> glazou: ok, let's close the issue
  291. # [18:17] * dsinger_ me 2...
  292. # [18:18] * Ms2ger is all for closing issues
  293. # [18:18] <fantasai> plinss: So, to be clear, we're not trying to define what media fragments mean.
  294. # [18:18] <danielweck> DANIEL W.: just regained access to internet. Joining the call now...
  295. # [18:18] <glazou> danielweck: ok
  296. # [18:18] <fantasai> Bert: There's a minor issue with the current spec. It refers to Media Fragments, but there's a parenthetical remark saying what to do with it, i.e. clipping it out
  297. # [18:19] <fantasai> Bert: Maybe that should not be normative
  298. # [18:19] <fantasai> fantasai: Here's the problem. Media Frags says which portion of the image the fragment represents
  299. # [18:20] * dsinger_ loves to close issues when he knows what the issue is
  300. # [18:20] <fantasai> fantasai: but it suggests things like showing the whole image and highlighting the selected rectangle
  301. # [18:20] <fantasai> fantasai: which is not useful to us
  302. # [18:20] <dsinger_> If a fragment is present and valid for the media type, the fragment is the image
  303. # [18:21] <dsinger_> zakim, unmute dsinger
  304. # [18:21] <Zakim> dsinger should no longer be muted
  305. # [18:21] <jdaggett> zakim, who is noisy?
  306. # [18:21] * glazou wonders if dsinger_ is calling from inside a factory
  307. # [18:21] <Zakim> jdaggett, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou (5%), Bert (15%)
  308. # [18:21] * glazou or an airport
  309. # [18:21] <dsinger_> zakim, mute dsinger
  310. # [18:21] <Zakim> dsinger should now be muted
  311. # [18:22] * Quits: karl (karlcow@128.30.54.58) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  312. # [18:22] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-images/#url
  313. # [18:22] * dsinger_ bus
  314. # [18:22] * TabAtkins will be on the call in a few minutes. He just got in, and needs to get breakfast before the cafe closes.
  315. # [18:22] <fantasai> ...
  316. # [18:22] * Quits: dsinger_ (dsinger@67.218.107.233) (Quit: Rooms • iPhone IRC Client • http://www.roomsapp.mobi)
  317. # [18:22] <ChrisL> this is ratholing from the original issue.
  318. # [18:22] <fantasai> smfr: The issue isn't just for CSS. If you use an image fragment in HTML, you have the same ambiguity
  319. # [18:23] <danielweck> DANIEL W. => damn, my usual SIP server is not working, and the Skype telephone bridge is rejecting the passcode ! :( (trying again)
  320. # [18:23] <fantasai> plinss: So are we requiring the UA to understand media fragments or not?
  321. # [18:23] <fantasai> fantasai: We are. If it's not clear, I'll make it clearer
  322. # [18:24] <Zakim> +??P5
  323. # [18:24] <fantasai> plinss points out the note about backwards compat isn't clear it's about nonconforming UAs
  324. # [18:24] <danielweck> Zakim, ??P5 is me
  325. # [18:24] <Zakim> +danielweck; got it
  326. # [18:24] <fantasai> Topic: Cross-origin Fonts
  327. # [18:24] <jdaggett> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-fonts/#same-origin-restriction
  328. # [18:24] <Zakim> +??P8
  329. # [18:24] <fantasai> jdaggett: I put the wording in the editor's draft, and as some of you know, Glenn Adams from Samsung raised a formal objection a few weeks ago.
  330. # [18:24] <alexmog> zakim, ??p8 is me
  331. # [18:24] <Zakim> +alexmog; got it
  332. # [18:25] <fantasai> jdaggett: He's since rescinded that, but it brings up a fuzzy area where as a group we haven't resolved clearly one way or another
  333. # [18:25] <fantasai> jdaggett: Do we address this issue in css3-fonts, or some other spec?
  334. # [18:25] <fantasai> jdaggett: There are two .. with same-origin restrictions
  335. # [18:26] <fantasai> jdaggett: First is, a lot of licenses require blocking cross-site linking. Right now they're doing this with Refererer checking
  336. # [18:26] <fantasai> jdaggett: It would be nice to provide a better solution in the UA
  337. # [18:26] <fantasai> jdaggett: The other issue is security and attack vectors.
  338. # [18:26] * Ms2ger suggests keeping it
  339. # [18:26] <fantasai> jdaggett: When cross-site linking is allowed freely, there are security implications that are not clear when the design was originally created
  340. # [18:26] <fantasai> jdaggett: WebGL is an example of this
  341. # [18:26] * fantasai didn't catch the details
  342. # [18:27] <fantasai> jdaggett: People like Bert assert that this is only a problem with script, and should be dealt there
  343. # [18:27] <fantasai> jdaggett: But scripting is a part of the web platform, so we need to consider it.
  344. # [18:27] <fantasai> jdaggett: The issue Glenn was bringing up was that Samsung thinks that any form of restriction on content is a form of DRM and therefore they don't want it.
  345. # [18:28] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@17.197.32.11)
  346. # [18:28] <fantasai> jdaggett: I don't think he originally understood the security considerations, but now does. But still doesn't like the first way
  347. # [18:28] <fantasai> jdaggett: It's a contentious issue.
  348. # [18:28] <Zakim> + +1.650.214.aabb
  349. # [18:28] <fantasai> jdaggett: What I want to resolve today is whether we address the issue in this spec.
  350. # [18:28] <fantasai> jdaggett: We can push it to another spec, but that just increases non-interop
  351. # [18:29] <fantasai> jdaggett: The current wording leaves enough wiggle room that the details can be worked out after we go to CR.
  352. # [18:29] <fantasai> jdaggett: If anyone wants to hold off on this, please state your opinion now.
  353. # [18:29] <dsinger> the sentence saying "the default same-origin for @font-face is XXX" -- what other spec. COULD that be in?
  354. # [18:29] <Zakim> +[Apple.a]
  355. # [18:30] <Zakim> -dsinger
  356. # [18:30] <fantasai> Florian: What Opera wants is not just to get that into another spec, our position is that the 2 issues you described in fonts, these these are [...]. The current proposal of useing same-origin policy resolves them
  357. # [18:30] <dsinger> zakim, [apple.a] has dsinger
  358. # [18:30] <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
  359. # [18:30] <fantasai> Florian: But Anne's From-Origin header solves them for more media types
  360. # [18:30] <fantasai> Florian: If we use From-Origin, then we don't need to deal with in this spec
  361. # [18:30] <Zakim> -danielweck
  362. # [18:30] <fantasai> ChrisL: No, it does need to be referred to. The crucial thing is if it's referred from @font-face, it's assumed to be sane.
  363. # [18:31] * Quits: Florian (Florian@58.1.224.28) (Ping timeout)
  364. # [18:31] <fantasai> Florian: I agree that some people say that. I don't agree that it's the best way to go.
  365. # [18:31] <Zakim> +??P5
  366. # [18:31] <danielweck> Zakim, ??P5 is me
  367. # [18:31] <Zakim> +danielweck; got it
  368. # [18:31] <fantasai> Florian: Whether or not it should default to sane, it's still better to go to From-Origin
  369. # [18:31] <fantasai> jdaggett: I disagree in the sense that if you have a From-Origin mechanism, as Anne has specced it out, I don't think that means you can drop any sort of wording in the CSS3 Fonts spec that refers to that.
  370. # [18:32] <fantasai> jdaggett: Not putting that wording in makes that an optional features. E.g. someone can implement css3-fonts, and not implement From-Origin.
  371. # [18:32] <fantasai> jdaggett: I don't think that's a good thing, particularly from security viewpoint
  372. # [18:32] <dsinger> s/sane/same/
  373. # [18:32] <fantasai> Florianr: If we have From-Origin, but say that when you use @font-face, then saying that ..
  374. # [18:32] <fantasai> Florian: Then that's not very different from using same-origin policy with CORS.
  375. # [18:33] <fantasai> Florian: Because of that .. not doing From-Origin, and not doing it would be bad, because it's useful for more than fonts.
  376. # [18:33] * Joins: karl (karlcow@128.30.54.58)
  377. # [18:33] <ChrisL> That doesn't seema logical response at all
  378. # [18:33] * Joins: Florian (Florian@58.1.224.28)
  379. # [18:33] <fantasai> Tab: If From-Origin is useful for many things, it will be useful for many things. We do not need the super-case of implementing it for Fonts in order to make the case for the From-Origin API.
  380. # [18:34] <fantasai> Tab: I think From-Origin is a great idea. I don't think saying that without CSS3 Fonts depending on it, it won't get implemented.
  381. # [18:34] <fantasai> Florian: The issue existed before, but because of this fonts issue, if we drop it I'm afraid that while it won't be rejected, it will get sidetracked because the main driver stopped caring.
  382. # [18:34] <fantasai> Tab: I don't think that's true. I believe others of us are interested.
  383. # [18:34] <fantasai> Tab: roc believes that more things should have been same-origin by default, and it should be easy to go back and fix them to be same-origin
  384. # [18:35] <fantasai> jdaggett: The issue I have here is not whether From-Origin or same-origin by default is better, what I'm trying to capture is whether we're trying to capture some type of origin restriction is in this spec.
  385. # [18:35] <fantasai> jdaggett: or whether we're dropping it from the spec and letting it happen via some other spec
  386. # [18:35] <fantasai> jdaggett: That brings the problem you're concerned about, of not having fonts drive htis issue.
  387. # [18:36] <fantasai> dsinger: The problem is that first, you must *notice* the From-Origin header and process it
  388. # [18:36] <fantasai> dsinger: The second problem is that you must treat it as same-origin by default.
  389. # [18:36] <fantasai> s/problem/problem I'm hearing/
  390. # [18:36] <fantasai> dsinger: Which issue are we concerned about
  391. # [18:37] <dbaron> I don't think what dsinger said makes sense.
  392. # [18:37] <fantasai> ...
  393. # [18:37] <fantasai> szilles: One of the things that concerns me is that it should be possible for the average person to use fonts with licensing restrictions without going through a lot of trouble.
  394. # [18:37] <dbaron> since the browser can't tell whether the server knows about From-Origin
  395. # [18:37] <fantasai> szilles: My concern about From-Origin is that it requires the server to be set up specially before you can use the font
  396. # [18:37] <ChrisL> what dsinger said is a good summary and i don't see anyone on this call actually, currently, objecting to it
  397. # [18:38] <fantasai> szilles: But many people do not have that level of control on the server.
  398. # [18:38] <fantasai> szilles: If we want fonts to be used on the Web, we need to make this easy.
  399. # [18:38] <fantasai> Tab: Yes, it's easy, unless you don't have server control
  400. # [18:38] <fantasai> jdaggett: Back to the issue: do we push this to another spec, or leave it in the spec and try to work it out here
  401. # [18:39] <ChrisL> so the default case means that it *is* easy for the common case. no server config needed
  402. # [18:39] <fantasai> jdaggett: I don't want to resolve whether to use From-Origin or same-origin today, just whether to deal with it here.
  403. # [18:39] <fantasai> hober: I believe this is clearly the right place to say something about this issue.
  404. # [18:39] <fantasai> jdaggett: I do think it's the domain of the spec, but just resolve that we're dealing with it.
  405. # [18:40] <fantasai> dsinger: What's the "this" ppl want to push out?
  406. # [18:40] <fantasai> dsinger reads out his two statements
  407. # [18:40] <fantasai> dsinger: I can't see what other spec they could possibly be in
  408. # [18:41] <fantasai> Florian asserts that the first statement isn't needed (noticing From-Origin)
  409. # [18:41] <fantasai> Florian: We don't say anything about other HTTP headers
  410. # [18:41] * fantasai wonders, what about FTP?
  411. # [18:41] <fantasai> dsinger: From-Origin is an addition to HTTP. It's not part of the normative HTTP spec that we reference.
  412. # [18:42] <Zakim> + +1.206.324.aacc
  413. # [18:42] <fantasai> jdaggett: What I'd like to resolve today is that the css3-fonts spec will deal with the same-origin issue, not what we should do about it. Are there objections to that?
  414. # [18:42] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@98.232.9.174)
  415. # [18:42] <fantasai> Florian: I really care about From-Origin. Don't feel strongly about whether it should be talked about in this spec, although I prefer not.
  416. # [18:42] <fantasai> RESOLVED: CSS3 Fonts will normatively address same-origin restriction issue.
  417. # [18:42] * sylvaing made it. Against all odds.
  418. # [18:43] <ChrisL> btw I saw a call for consensus for first public working fraft of from-origin, so its moving forward
  419. # [18:43] <fantasai> TabAtkins: No changes to css3-images, except fantasai's request to revert keywords to match last draft.
  420. # [18:44] <fantasai> ChrisL: I read through a spec, some things a little weird, but no objection to publishing.
  421. # [18:44] <fantasai> plinss: any objections to publishing?
  422. # [18:44] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Publish CSS3 Images as WD.
  423. # [18:45] <fantasai> Brad: I had a small issue. Looks like you took a note about values of background properties being used to repeat gradients, can you put that back in?
  424. # [18:45] <fantasai> TabAtkins: sure
  425. # [18:45] <fantasai> Topic: css3-speech
  426. # [18:45] <fantasai> dweck: We can't request publication just yet. Processing the comments that came in the past week
  427. # [18:46] <fantasai> dweck: Just wanted to ask if ppl could go through replies on css3-speech issues as they come in this week, and review.
  428. # [18:46] <fantasai> plinss: Ok, everyone please review messages/spec and send feedback
  429. # [18:46] <fantasai> Topic: F2F
  430. # [18:46] <fantasai> sylvaing: Narrowed things down to two, one is the hotel on West Lake
  431. # [18:47] <fantasai> sylvaing: The only wrinkle on that is that it's not something that the MS venue dept works with.
  432. # [18:47] <fantasai> sylvaing: Worst case we get Mariott downtown on the waterfront
  433. # [18:47] <fantasai> sylvaing: Should be able to confirm by end of week
  434. # [18:47] <fantasai> ChrisL: Can we confirm that MS is hosting the joint SVG-CSS meeting? Because Adobe can't handle that many people.
  435. # [18:47] <fantasai> sylvaing: Yeah
  436. # [18:47] <fantasai> sylvaing: Only thing I haven't planned for is, right now assuming 30 people. Do we need more?
  437. # [18:47] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Seems appropriate
  438. # [18:48] <fantasai> sylvaing: Let me know if I need to crank it up
  439. # [18:48] <fantasai> dbaron: How many from SVG?
  440. # [18:48] <fantasai> ChrisL: 6-10
  441. # [18:48] <fantasai> plinss: If we can get our members to sign up on wiki page and get an accurate count, would be useful
  442. # [18:48] <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/seattle-2011
  443. # [18:48] <fantasai> plinss: Anything else on F2F
  444. # [18:48] <fantasai> ?
  445. # [18:49] <fantasai> Topic: Charter
  446. # [18:49] <ChrisL> http://www.w3.org/2010/09/CSSWG/charter.html
  447. # [18:49] <fantasai> plinss: joint modules with FX?
  448. # [18:49] <fantasai> plinss: We talked about an email to www-style, haven't seen any responses
  449. # [18:49] <plinss> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Jul/0000.html
  450. # [18:50] <smfr> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Jul/att-0000/FX_Task_Force_and_Related_CSS___SVG_Specifications_and_Drafts.html
  451. # [18:50] <fantasai> ChrisL: Proposal to move forward was to get an extension
  452. # [18:51] <fantasai> ChrisL: I made the changes requested to reorder deliverables in the charter
  453. # [18:51] <fantasai> ChrisL: If we agree with recommendations in latest email from Vincent, I can put that in as well
  454. # [18:51] <fantasai> ChrisL: There was a request to do Transitions jointly
  455. # [18:51] <fantasai> smfr: You mean Transforms?
  456. # [18:52] <fantasai> ChrisL: reads out the list
  457. # [18:52] <fantasai> smfr: 2D/3D Transforms
  458. # [18:52] <fantasai> smfr: gradients
  459. # [18:52] <ChrisL> agree that 2d and 3d transforms should be added
  460. # [18:52] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Gradients is getting resolved, using a solution suggested by roc a year or two ago. Don't need any particular joint work there.
  461. # [18:53] <glazou> danielweck: I have a comment on voice-volume ; will send a mail
  462. # [18:53] <fantasai> ChrisL: There should still be coordination on that.
  463. # [18:53] <fantasai> TabAtkins: yes
  464. # [18:53] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Once we publish the next css3-images draft, I'll add some notes on making SVG gradients and CSS Images interact
  465. # [18:53] <fantasai> ChrisL: SVG offered to make Compositing a joint spec, if CSS is interested
  466. # [18:54] <fantasai> ChrisL: If not, SVG will move forward with it anyway
  467. # [18:54] <fantasai> ChrisL: But may have some applicability in CSS
  468. # [18:54] <fantasai> smfr: Might have some interaction with Filters
  469. # [18:54] <fantasai> ChrisL: My tendency would be to put it in joint work currently, just to cover it
  470. # [18:54] <fantasai> smfr: Sounds fine
  471. # [18:55] <ChrisL> ok will put compositing as joint
  472. # [18:55] * bradk doesn't like the orange line on the blue background, between the words "interaction" and "domain"
  473. # [18:55] <fantasai> plinss: Do you have what you need?
  474. # [18:55] <fantasai> ChrisL: Yes
  475. # [18:55] <fantasai> Topic: CSS3 Color
  476. # [18:56] <fantasai> plinss: We had an email raising an issue. Should we start an errata?
  477. # [18:56] <fantasai> ChrisL: Yes, we should start an errata.
  478. # [18:56] <fantasai> ChrisL: The first issue is trivial
  479. # [18:56] <dbaron> what's the url of this?
  480. # [18:56] <nimbu> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Jul/0025.html
  481. # [18:56] <fantasai> ChrisL: Just need to add "This section is non-normative" to the intro
  482. # [18:56] <Florianr> Just noticed something about the minutes about CSS Font and From-Origin. we talked about whether the default should be "same". The minutes mention "sane".
  483. # [18:56] <fantasai> ChrisL: Second one is much more serious
  484. # [18:57] <Zakim> -bradk
  485. # [18:57] <fantasai> ChrisL: Container needs to be refined for CSS, since for relpos/abspos there's different behavior
  486. # [18:57] <fantasai> ChrisL: Need to clarify 3.2 that treated doesn't affect the computed value
  487. # [18:57] <Zakim> -ChrisL
  488. # [18:57] <Zakim> +bradk
  489. # [18:58] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  490. # [18:58] * Quits: JohnJan (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
  491. # [18:58] <fantasai> dbaron: I think his proposed wording isn't quite sufficient because "treated as though it has the index: 0" also has an effect on the painting level of descendents, which this doesn't mention
  492. # [18:58] <Zakim> +ChrisL
  493. # [18:59] <fantasai> ChrisL: do you have better proposed wording?
  494. # [18:59] <fantasai> dbaron: I think what's there already might be OK
  495. # [18:59] <fantasai> smfr: What's there already is certainly better than his suggestion.
  496. # [19:00] <dbaron> just change "except that 'auto' is treated" to "except that a computed value of 'auto' is treated" to make it clear that it doesn't change the computed value
  497. # [19:00] <fantasai> smfr: Maybe "behaves as if its z-index were zero"?
  498. # [19:01] <fantasai> fantasai: Could work. Subjunctive implies that it is not true.
  499. # [19:01] <Zakim> -danielweck
  500. # [19:01] <Zakim> +??P1
  501. # [19:01] <danielweck> Zakim, ??P1 is me
  502. # [19:01] <Zakim> +danielweck; got it
  503. # [19:01] <fantasai> ChrisL: For the third we might need some email back and forth to determine best wording, but the other two I can do
  504. # [19:01] <Zakim> -bradk
  505. # [19:01] <fantasai> ACTION: ChrisL update css3-color errata to handle issues 1, 2 in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Jul/0025.html
  506. # [19:01] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  507. # [19:01] * RRSAgent records action 1
  508. # [19:01] <trackbot> Created ACTION-337 - Update css3-color errata to handle issues 1, 2 in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Jul/0025.html [on Chris Lilley - due 2011-07-13].
  509. # [19:02] * Joins: Martijnc (Martijnc@84.192.44.100)
  510. # [19:02] <fantasai> Topic: CSS3 Writing Modes
  511. # [19:03] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I remember reading your email and thinking, man, text is hard.
  512. # [19:03] <fantasai> Florian: The content of the email, no, but whether we should keep this approach we can do in 2 minutes
  513. # [19:03] <fantasai> Florian: I think it's a good approach, keep going.
  514. # [19:03] <dbaron> (which mail?)
  515. # [19:03] <plinss> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Jul/0004.html
  516. # [19:03] * Quits: bradk (bradk@99.7.175.117) (Ping timeout)
  517. # [19:04] <fantasai> jdaggett: I think we need something like this as a default, but going back to Eric Muller's statement, I think we need a good default, but also an escape hatch.
  518. # [19:04] <fantasai> jdaggett: Someone should be able to define for their text, these characters are always oriented as such-and-such
  519. # [19:04] <fantasai> fantasai: Do we need to have that character-level control in level 3?
  520. # [19:05] <fantasai> jdaggett: text-orientation in general is nothing you can fake. You need a standard behavior.
  521. # [19:06] <fantasai> Florian: We need the default in level 3. Do we need the escape hatch in level 3. I think not
  522. # [19:06] <fantasai> szilles: If you don't have a clear statement of what the defaults are, you can't do anything.
  523. # [19:06] <fantasai> szilles: And I don't think we have a clear statement of what the defaults are.
  524. # [19:06] * glazou has to leave, sorry guys
  525. # [19:07] <fantasai> jdaggett: That's what fantasai is trying to define here.
  526. # [19:07] <Zakim> -glazou
  527. # [19:07] <fantasai> szilles: Don't recall what the escape hatch issue was. Markup is an escape hatch.
  528. # [19:07] <fantasai> jdaggett: I would ask that we put this on the top of the agenda next week.
  529. # [19:07] <fantasai> jdaggett: If we try to address at the end of the call, will always be starved for time.
  530. # [19:07] <fantasai> Florian: I will only add that this is worth thinking about so don't drop it yet.
  531. # [19:07] * Quits: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19) (Quit: have to run, sorry)
  532. # [19:07] <fantasai> plinss: So top of call next week then.
  533. # [19:07] <Zakim> -dbaron
  534. # [19:07] <Zakim> - +1.650.214.aabb
  535. # [19:07] <Zakim> -jdaggett
  536. # [19:07] <Zakim> -ChrisL
  537. # [19:07] <Zakim> -[Apple]
  538. # [19:08] <Zakim> - +1.206.324.aacc
  539. # [19:08] <Zakim> -arronei_
  540. # [19:08] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  541. # [19:08] <Zakim> -nimbu
  542. # [19:08] <Zakim> -danielweck
  543. # [19:08] <fantasai> Meeting closed.
  544. # [19:08] <Zakim> -Kimberly
  545. # [19:08] <Zakim> -Florian
  546. # [19:08] * Quits: smfr (smfr@173.228.90.67) (Quit: smfr)
  547. # [19:08] <Zakim> -smfr
  548. # [19:08] * Quits: kojiishi (kojiishi@222.158.227.129) (Quit: Leaving...)
  549. # [19:08] <Zakim> -kojiishi
  550. # [19:08] * Quits: Kimberly (Kimberly@68.63.100.78) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 5.0/20110615151330])
  551. # [19:08] <Zakim> -plinss
  552. # [19:08] * Parts: Florianr (florianr@114.181.159.79)
  553. # [19:08] <Zakim> -[Apple.a]
  554. # [19:08] <Zakim> -Bert
  555. # [19:08] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@173.228.28.228) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  556. # [19:08] <Zakim> -fantasai
  557. # [19:08] <fantasai> fantasai's comments to be inserted: that the rest of stuff in writing-modes is higher priority than a char-level escape hatch, so we shouldn't hold up the spec for that.
  558. # [19:08] <nimbu> plinss: the seattle wikipage is not editable
  559. # [19:08] <nimbu> i mean seattle f2f
  560. # [19:08] <nimbu> :/
  561. # [19:09] <plinss> ? checking...
  562. # [19:09] <nimbu> http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/seattle-2011
  563. # [19:09] <fantasai> fixed
  564. # [19:09] <fantasai> try now
  565. # [19:09] <nimbu> yep see those buttons
  566. # [19:09] <fantasai> nimbu, what's your login?
  567. # [19:09] <plinss> try it now
  568. # [19:09] <nimbu> divya
  569. # [19:10] <fantasai> odd...
  570. # [19:10] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@17.197.32.11) (Quit: dsinger)
  571. # [19:10] <fantasai> divya, can you edit http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1 ?
  572. # [19:10] <plinss> I just added her to the wg group
  573. # [19:11] <nimbu> yep seems so
  574. # [19:11] <fantasai> ah
  575. # [19:11] <fantasai> that explains it :)
  576. # [19:11] <nimbu> :)
  577. # [19:13] <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, alexmog, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
  578. # [19:13] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  579. # [19:13] <Zakim> Attendees were arronei_, +1.206.552.aaaa, glazou, Kimberly, Florianr, dsinger, kojiishi, plinss, hober, JohnJn, JohnJan, bradk, ChrisL, jdaggett, nimbu, SteveZ, Bert, dbaron, smfr,
  580. # [19:13] <Zakim> ... fantasai, Florian, danielweck, alexmog, +1.650.214.aabb, [Apple], +1.206.324.aacc
  581. # [19:13] * Quits: danielweck (dweck2@86.158.24.122) (Quit: danielweck)
  582. # [19:15] * Quits: Cathy (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
  583. # [19:22] <Ms2ger> Zakim, make minutes public
  584. # [19:22] <Zakim> I don't understand 'make minutes public', Ms2ger
  585. # [19:22] <ChrisL> rrsagent, make logs public
  586. # [19:22] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, ChrisL
  587. # [19:23] <ChrisL> rrsagent, make minutes
  588. # [19:23] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/06-css-minutes.html ChrisL
  589. # [19:27] * Quits: jdaggett (jdaggett@69.181.221.22) (Quit: jdaggett)
  590. # [19:33] * Quits: karl (karlcow@128.30.54.58) (Quit: Freedom - to walk free and own no superior.)
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  596. # [20:00] * Quits: alexmog (alexmog@24.16.133.35) (Quit: alexmog)
  597. # [20:00] * Quits: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.169) (Quit: Fire on main board error, client combusted)
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  602. # [21:10] * Quits: anne (annevk@84.38.144.96) (Ping timeout)
  603. # [21:29] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  604. # [21:29] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.169)
  605. # [22:35] * Quits: Ms2ger (Ms2ger@91.181.52.104) (Quit: nn)
  606. # [23:06] * Quits: nimbupani (Adium@24.18.47.160) (Quit: Leaving.)
  607. # [23:08] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.240) (Ping timeout)
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  611. # [23:22] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.240)
  612. # [23:29] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Did you restore Brad's note yet? I'd like to put css3-images in the publication pipeline..
  613. # [23:29] <TabAtkins> Not yet. Been dealing with my stack of emails since Friday (because yesterday was a google holiday too).
  614. # [23:29] <TabAtkins> I can do it real quick.
  615. # [23:29] <fantasai> ok, do it real quick :)
  616. # [23:30] <fantasai> and then I'll start prepping for a webreq
  617. # [23:35] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.240) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  618. # [23:38] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Done.
  619. # [23:48] <fantasai> TabAtkins: thanks
  620. # Session Close: Thu Jul 07 00:00:00 2011

The end :)