/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2011-08-03 / end

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  14. # 03[02:10] * Topic is 'logged at http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ today is in #fx'
  15. # 03[02:10] * Set by anne on Tue Jul 26 18:14:05
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  32. # [17:12] <anne> Bert, I made a change to make multipage work
  33. # [17:13] <Bert> Hi Anne. Doing cvs update now...
  34. # [17:14] <anne> I just committed
  35. # 03[17:41] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@98.232.9.174)
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  39. # [18:00] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/08/03-css-irc
  40. # [18:00] <plinss> zakim, this will be style
  41. # [18:00] <Zakim> ok, plinss; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
  42. # [18:00] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  43. # [18:00] <Zakim> +plinss
  44. # 03[18:01] * Joins: dsinger_ (dsinger@67.218.110.32)
  45. # 06[18:01] * dsinger_ so is there a call today or not? Anyone know?
  46. # 03[18:02] * Joins: kimberlyblessing (Kimberly@68.63.100.78)
  47. # [18:02] <plinss> there's a call about the html lc issues
  48. # 03[18:02] * Joins: oyvind (oyvinds@213.236.208.22)
  49. # 06[18:02] * dsinger_ 'k, back in a sec
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  51. # [18:03] <Zakim> +dsinger
  52. # 03[18:03] * Joins: dsinger_ (dsinger@67.218.110.32)
  53. # [18:04] <dsinger_> zakim, mute dsinger
  54. # [18:04] <Zakim> dsinger should now be muted
  55. # 06[18:04] * dsinger_ hi
  56. # [18:04] <Zakim> +kimberlyblessing
  57. # [18:04] <Zakim> + +1.206.324.aaaa
  58. # [18:04] <sylvaing> Zakim, aaaa is sylvaing
  59. # [18:04] <Zakim> +sylvaing; got it
  60. # [18:04] <Zakim> +??P25
  61. # [18:04] <dsinger_> zakim, who is here?
  62. # [18:04] <Zakim> On the phone I see plinss, dsinger (muted), kimberlyblessing, sylvaing, ??P25
  63. # 04[18:05] <Zakim> On IRC I see dsinger_, oyvind, kimberlyblessing, RRSAgent, Zakim, dbaron, sylvaing, Ms2ger, karl, krijnhuman, TabAtkins, arronei_, anne, gsnedders, Bert, lhnz, hober, CSSWG_LogBot,
  64. # [18:05] <Zakim> ... fantasai, plinss, ed, Hixie, trackbot
  65. # [18:05] <plinss> zakim, P25 is fantasai
  66. # [18:05] <Zakim> sorry, plinss, I do not recognize a party named 'P25'
  67. # [18:05] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  68. # [18:05] <plinss> zakim, ??P25 is fantasai
  69. # [18:05] <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
  70. # 03[18:05] * Joins: JohnJansen (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  71. # [18:06] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
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  74. # [18:07] <Zakim> + +1.650.618.aabb
  75. # [18:07] <dbaron> Zakim, aabb is dbaron
  76. # [18:07] <Zakim> +dbaron; got it
  77. # 06[18:07] * TabAtkins_ is here in IRC only.
  78. # 06[18:07] * dbaron thinks Zakim should have recognized that number
  79. # 06[18:09] * dsinger_ wonders if Tab has mind-body dualism, here in IRC only
  80. # [18:09] <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
  81. # [18:09] <plinss> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/reviews/html5
  82. # [18:10] <fantasai> plinss: The one topic today is HTML5 LC comments
  83. # [18:10] <fantasai> fantasai: the ones at the top are just a list of issues, need a proper writeup to be a comment
  84. # [18:10] <fantasai> plinss: Should we go over them to see if we agree?
  85. # [18:11] <fantasai> fantasai: Yes, but they still need a writeup
  86. # [18:11] <fantasai> ...
  87. # [18:12] <fantasai> plinss: First item, UI selectors and split between CSS3 UI and HTML5
  88. # [18:12] <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/links.html#pseudo-classes
  89. # [18:13] <TabAtkins_> Note: there is no split. The only difference is in the direction selectors, which is between Selectors 4 and HTML.
  90. # [18:13] <fantasai> fantasai: The main problem I see in this section is that there's no normative reference to Selectors /CSS3UI that define the selectors
  91. # [18:13] <dsinger_> Do we need to separate CSS-related comments from other more general comments?
  92. # [18:13] <fantasai> TabAtkins, the split is that our specs define the selectors and HTML5 defines when they apply
  93. # [18:14] <sylvaing> did we log daniel's comment on 10.4.2: "This section is intended to be moved to its own CSS module once an editor is found to run with it."
  94. # [18:14] <Ms2ger> There is a normative reference to Selectors and CSS3-UI, btw
  95. # [18:14] <fantasai> I think that fell under the coordination / lack of communication issue.
  96. # [18:14] <sylvaing> it's more than that; this note says the section is a CSS feature
  97. # [18:15] <sylvaing> but certainly needs coordination work
  98. # 06[18:15] * dsinger_ is muted due to bus noise
  99. # [18:15] <fantasai> Ms2ger: I don't see it, where?
  100. # [18:15] <anne> fantasai, http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13613 (on not having a normative reference)
  101. # [18:16] <Ms2ger> It's in the references section at least
  102. # [18:16] <Ms2ger> s/It's/They are/
  103. # [18:16] <fantasai> [...]
  104. # [18:16] <anne> Ms2ger, yes for the rendering section
  105. # [18:16] <anne> Ms2ger, not for the pseudo-class section
  106. # [18:16] <fantasai> fantasai: I think some of Bert's comments should be sent as personal comments, not as WG comments
  107. # [18:16] <Ms2ger> Mm
  108. # [18:16] <fantasai> dbaron: In general, I think comments shouldn't be sent as group comments unless they really affect the interaction of the specs
  109. # [18:16] <fantasai> fantasai: A lot of these do
  110. # [18:16] <anne> sylvaing, I emailed www-style on that
  111. # [18:17] <fantasai> dbaron: Yes
  112. # [18:17] <anne> sylvaing, only Tab replied thus far
  113. # [18:17] <fantasai> plinss: So let's go over the issues and decide what ot do with that
  114. # [18:17] <Zakim> +[Apple]
  115. # [18:17] <fantasai> fantasai: For UI selectors issue, I think the only problem is the lack of normative reference. Looks like anne filed that
  116. # [18:17] <hober> Zakim, Apple has hober
  117. # [18:17] <Zakim> +hober; got it
  118. # 02[18:18] * Quits: dsinger_ (dsinger@67.218.110.32) (Quit: Rooms • iPhone IRC Client • http://www.roomsapp.mobi)
  119. # [18:18] <fantasai> fantasai: But that should be considered a WG comment
  120. # [18:18] <fantasai> fantasai: Anyone else have comments on UI selectors issue?
  121. # [18:18] <fantasai> <silence>
  122. # [18:19] <sylvaing> anne, yes you did. I thought it should be on the wiki as one of the issues we might comment on.
  123. # [18:19] <fantasai> plinss: So do we want to send that as a WG comment?
  124. # [18:19] <fantasai> fantasai: How do we do that?
  125. # [18:19] <anne> sylvaing, it is the third bullet point no?
  126. # [18:19] <fantasai> ACTION fantasai: Write a paragraph linking to this bug so plinss can send it
  127. # 06[18:19] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  128. # 06[18:19] * RRSAgent records action 1
  129. # [18:19] <trackbot> Created ACTION-359 - Write a paragraph linking to this bug so plinss can send it [on Elika Etemad - due 2011-08-10].
  130. # [18:19] <anne> I don't see any reason to send it as WG comment if the issue is already filed
  131. # [18:20] <fantasai> anne, it's still an issue raised by the WG
  132. # [18:20] <anne> "The CSS WG endorses this comment"? seems fairly lame to me
  133. # [18:20] <anne> it's an issue raised by you and I filed it
  134. # [18:20] <fantasai> plinss: :ltr, :rtl ?
  135. # [18:20] <anne> already filed
  136. # [18:21] <fantasai> plinss: Should have a draft of Selectors 4 for them to reference soon
  137. # [18:21] <sylvaing> anne, and i don't see any reason to not be complete. If it's just a matter of linking to a filed issue the cost seems pretty low.
  138. # [18:22] <fantasai> fantasai: So do we put this in the issue list? What do we put?
  139. # [18:22] <anne> sylvaing, you mean filing an issue on HTML?
  140. # [18:22] <anne> sylvaing, not sure what that would say
  141. # [18:22] <fantasai> fantasai: That it needs updating and a reference to Selectors 4?
  142. # [18:22] <fantasai> plinss: Yes
  143. # [18:23] <fantasai> plinss: ::cue pseudo-element, :past/:future pseudo-classes
  144. # [18:23] <fantasai> fantasai: I added :past and :future to Selectors 4 yesterday
  145. # [18:23] <fantasai> plinss: We do have the general issue of HTML going off and defining pseudo-classes and pseudo-elements without talking to us about it. We need a general statement that they shouldn't do that.
  146. # [18:23] <TabAtkins_> ::cue is potentially interesting to look into. It's actually a generic way to poke selectors into embedded documents.
  147. # [18:24] <TabAtkins_> Though currently limited to WebVTT, which doesn't have a way of embedding CSS itself.
  148. # [18:24] <fantasai> fantasai: Don't have a draft for ::cue, not intending to add it
  149. # 03[18:24] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@17.197.32.11)
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  151. # [18:24] <anne> it's not selectors in embedded documents...
  152. # [18:25] <fantasai> plinss: I think we can file it as a general issue that this isn't defined in CSS, there's been no communication to the CSSWG about it, it needs to be defined somewhere in CSS but we need to work together on it at some point in the future.
  153. # [18:25] <Zakim> +[Apple.a]
  154. # [18:25] <dsinger> zakim, [apple.a] has dsinger
  155. # [18:25] <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
  156. # [18:25] <anne> well it is, but not Selectors selectors
  157. # [18:25] <fantasai> fantasai: So you want to write that one up?
  158. # [18:25] <fantasai> plinss: yep
  159. # [18:25] <Zakim> -dsinger
  160. # [18:25] <anne> plinss, I communicated it to the CSS WG
  161. # [18:25] <sylvaing> anne, you were saying we shouldn't need to mention it if the issue has been filed. I'm saying if it has been we should link to it. If it hasn't, we should highlight it as an outstanding issue since it is one. that's all.
  162. # [18:25] <fantasai> fantasai: disabled attribute, should it be WG comment or Daniel comment?
  163. # [18:25] <fantasai> plinss: Probably Daniel comment.
  164. # [18:25] <anne> sylvaing, it points to an email that asks the CSS WG to work on this
  165. # [18:26] <anne> sylvaing, it has done since that page existed more or less
  166. # [18:26] <fantasai> plinss: I'll ping him about it
  167. # 06[18:26] * nimbupani is not accessible via phone
  168. # 03[18:26] * nimbupani is now known as nimbu
  169. # [18:26] <fantasai> fantasai: normative references to CSS editors' drafts?
  170. # [18:27] <Ms2ger> Should be fine
  171. # [18:27] <fantasai> fantasai: Should be a WG comment
  172. # [18:27] <fantasai> plinss: Just say they shouldn't be doing it
  173. # [18:27] <anne> agreed with Ms2ger
  174. # [18:27] <fantasai> plinss: We discussed a little at the F2F
  175. # [18:27] <fantasai> plinss: Some said it's just their problem wrt not being able to advance
  176. # [18:27] <anne> I wouldn't want HTML to reference a WD of CSSOM at this point
  177. # 06[18:28] * Ms2ger wonders if the CSSWG has any power over the HTMLWG so it can say what the latter can and cannot do
  178. # [18:28] <sylvaing> anne, right. it's an issue so it should be listed. moving on...:)
  179. # [18:29] <fantasai> fantasai: CSSWG handles editors' drafts differently from HTMLWG [...]
  180. # [18:29] <fantasai> hober: Should we maybe expedite some updates to WD?
  181. # [18:29] <anne> no not the CSSWG
  182. # [18:29] <anne> some people in the CSSWG
  183. # [18:29] <anne> and some treat them pretty much the same
  184. # [18:29] <fantasai> plinss: Yeah. We're happy to publish updates as soon as the editor says they have something to update
  185. # [18:29] <anne> this whole "lets talk as a WG" makes little sense to me
  186. # [18:29] <fantasai> hober: I think that would be useful to communicate in the comments
  187. # [18:30] <fantasai> plinss: I'll write that one up
  188. # 03[18:30] * Joins: Martijnc (Martijnc@84.192.44.100)
  189. # [18:30] <fantasai> plinss: Should I provide a list?
  190. # [18:31] <fantasai> fantasai: could do
  191. # [18:31] <fantasai> plinss: case-insensitive attribute values
  192. # [18:31] <fantasai> fantasai: Is this just values? Bert raised an issue about attribute names..
  193. # [18:32] <fantasai> plinss: Bert's comment is about elements and attributes
  194. # [18:32] <anne> bert is wrong
  195. # [18:32] <fantasai> plinss: Could combine
  196. # [18:32] <fantasai> fantasai: Well, they're different. Adding a new syntax to do case-insensitive value matching is one thing
  197. # [18:32] <anne> element names and attribute names in XML are matched case-sensitively and that should never change
  198. # [18:33] <fantasai> fantasai: Having element selectors match case-sensitively in XML is another matter.
  199. # [18:33] <fantasai> fantasai: Anne says Bert's wrong
  200. # [18:33] <anne> there's no use case for that anyway
  201. # [18:33] <anne> the only use case is for attribute values
  202. # [18:33] <fantasai> fantasai: I don't know where Bert's getting this idea then
  203. # [18:33] <fantasai> fantasai: But if it's not correct, then we shouldn't send that as a comment.
  204. # [18:33] <anne> /* case-insensitive */ in HTML refers to this definition
  205. # [18:34] <anne> "Similarly, for the purpose of the rules marked "case-insensitive", user agents are expected to use ASCII case-insensitive matching of attribute values rather than case-sensitive matching, even for attributes in XHTML documents."
  206. # [18:35] <fantasai> fantasai: I don't see a problem with that.
  207. # [18:35] <fantasai> fantasai: So I don't think we need to send this as a comment.
  208. # [18:35] <fantasai> plinss: Bert's comment or?
  209. # [18:35] <fantasai> fantasai: Well, Bert's comment is wrong, so we shouldn't send it
  210. # [18:35] <anne> I already filed a bug on replacing that construct with the new i-flag
  211. # [18:36] <anne> I should really go
  212. # [18:36] <fantasai> fantasai: For the other issue, I don't think how HTML defines it is a problem. And they can use the new Selector 4 syntax once that's stable
  213. # [18:36] <fantasai> plinss: No comment on this one?
  214. # [18:36] <fantasai> fantasai: right
  215. # [18:37] <fantasai> plinss: Next, rendering depends on video { object-fit: contain; }
  216. # [18:37] <fantasai> fantasai: What does that mean?
  217. # [18:38] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#replaced-elements
  218. # [18:38] <TabAtkins_> The rendering rules of video were previous explicitly described. They can instead be described succinctly by that UA style.
  219. # [18:38] <fantasai> fantasai: It says the following rules apply, and lists video { object-fit: contain; }
  220. # [18:38] <fantasai> fantasai: I don't see a problem with that
  221. # 06[18:38] * Ms2ger neither
  222. # 06[18:39] * fantasai looks at old copy
  223. # [18:39] <fantasai> fantasai: Does anyone else see an issue?
  224. # [18:40] <fantasai> Nobody sees an issue
  225. # [18:40] <fantasai> plinss: Who added the issue?
  226. # [18:40] <fantasai> plinss: Anne
  227. # [18:41] <fantasai> RESOLVED: No issue
  228. # [18:41] <fantasai> plinss: xxx-large issue?
  229. # [18:42] <fantasai> fantasai: Seems like a comment they should make on our spec, not a comment we should make on theirs
  230. # [18:42] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Not a CSSWG comment to HTML
  231. # [18:42] <anne> oh, I noted it since we marked it at risk in css3-image
  232. # [18:42] <fantasai> plinss: Attribute value normalization
  233. # [18:42] <TabAtkins_> Yeah, it's solely a convenience in the stylesheet, like the "X" selector used in describing the styling of headings.
  234. # [18:43] <anne> the X selector can be replaced by :matches I think
  235. # [18:43] <fantasai> fantasai: I think this issue is out of scope for us
  236. # [18:43] <fantasai> hober: Wouldn't it affect selector matching?
  237. # [18:43] <anne> it would
  238. # [18:43] <fantasai> fantasai: And a lot of other things besides, but how they parse their document isn't in our scope imo
  239. # 06[18:43] * Ms2ger agrees with fantasai
  240. # [18:43] <fantasai> plinss: It's still a valid comment
  241. # [18:44] <fantasai> fantasai: Yeah, but Bert should send it on his own. It's not a coordination issue between us and them
  242. # [18:44] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Bert sends this comment on his own
  243. # [18:45] <fantasai> plinss: Alternate style sheets?
  244. # [18:45] <fantasai> fantasai: Seems like a fair comment.
  245. # [18:45] <Ms2ger> It doesn't seem like something that should go in HTML
  246. # [18:45] <fantasai> fantasai: CSSOM should explain how it interacts with scripting, but ...
  247. # [18:46] <fantasai> hober: So comment should be they define it themselves?
  248. # [18:46] <fantasai> fantasai: Theoretically you could have non-CSS style sheets, that's allowed by HTML
  249. # [18:46] <fantasai> hober: This half-reads as a comment on CSSOM spec, not sure what that has to do with HTML spec
  250. # [18:48] <fantasai> plinss: http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#styling
  251. # 06[18:49] * sylvaing should we mark the issues we're sending on the wiki ?
  252. # [18:49] <fantasai> fantasai: This seems like a "what's the right dividing line between CSSOM and HTML" issue
  253. # [18:49] <fantasai> fantasai: And I'm not sure the line is drawn in the right place
  254. # [18:50] <fantasai> plinss: Who wants to write this up in a better way?
  255. # [18:50] <fantasai> fantasai: I guess I can write it up? I don't know anything about the OM, so I'm not sure that's a good idea...
  256. # [18:51] <fantasai> hober: I'm not sure there's an issue, but might be artifact of how big and unweildy the HTML5 spec is
  257. # 06[18:51] * Ms2ger thinks the line is drawn correctly
  258. # [18:51] <fantasai> hober: It does define how style sheet is loaded
  259. # [18:51] <fantasai> hober: It defers to CSSOM the scripting of enabling and disabling the style sheets
  260. # [18:51] <Ms2ger> If alternate style sheets aren't defined, that seems like a bug for the CSSWG
  261. # [18:51] <fantasai> hober: And that should live in the OM
  262. # [18:52] <fantasai> fantasai: You don't need scripting support to support alternate style sheets
  263. # [18:52] <fantasai> hober: There's two bits of that, is there some kind of UI exposed to the user -- that's out-of-scope for HTML spec
  264. # [18:52] <fantasai> hober: And there's the scripting interface, which should live in CSSOM
  265. # [18:53] <fantasai> fantasai: HTML4 had a section on alternate style sheets. Not very well written, but it described which style sheets were enabled by default, which style sheets were grouped together as a style set, and which style sheets were enabled or disabled when you switched style sets
  266. # [18:54] <fantasai> hober: There's not a good part of W3C to write that down, so not clear where it should go
  267. # [18:54] <Ms2ger> It looks like alternative style sheets in HTML are already defined in css3-cascade without a ref to HTML4
  268. # [18:54] <fantasai> hober: Not specific to HTML that there's a concept of alternate style sheets
  269. # [18:54] <fantasai> fantasai^: Interaction with disabled attribute just wasn't part of that
  270. # [18:54] <Ms2ger> There's nothing left to define in HTML besides the OM
  271. # [18:55] <fantasai> hober: It might be reasonable for us to narrowly scope the comment, say yes the scripting part of this should be in CSSOM, but the other part shouldn't, and HTML should either write down how alternate style sheets work, how the disabled attribute interacts with that ...
  272. # [18:55] <fantasai> hober: Not clear to me CSSWG specifically shoudl do that
  273. # [18:56] <fantasai> hober: As you said, could have other style languages
  274. # [18:56] <fantasai> hober: Might be reasonable for Style Activity to handle that somewhere
  275. # [18:56] <Ms2ger> hober, The CSSWG already does that
  276. # [18:56] <fantasai> ...
  277. # [18:57] <fantasai> hober: I'm agreeing there's a missing piece of prose. Not sure where it should go. Not specific to HTML, it's a part of the web platform. Other languages could have notion of alternate style sheets as well
  278. # [18:57] <fantasai> fantasai: There's only two places that have this notion: HTML and the xml-stylesheet PI
  279. # [18:57] <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-stylesheet/
  280. # [18:59] <fantasai> plinss: So what do want to say to HTML5?
  281. # [18:59] <Ms2ger> fantasai, Also @import according to css3-cascade
  282. # [18:59] <fantasai> fantasai: To make sure this is defined, either by writing the spec or finding someone else to write the spec
  283. # [18:59] <fantasai> Ms2ger, any draft that's older than 2007 should be considered abandoned
  284. # [19:00] <Ms2ger> Replace it, then
  285. # [19:00] <fantasai> plinss: White space where HTML4 ignored it
  286. # [19:00] <fantasai> hober: Not really a CSS issue
  287. # [19:00] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Bert sends that one on his own
  288. # [19:00] <fantasai> plinss: details element
  289. # [19:01] <Ms2ger> The body element proposed there has been rejected several times already, fwiw
  290. # [19:02] <fantasai> fantasai: We can't handle this in CSS yet, but I don't see a problem with the spec
  291. # [19:02] <fantasai> hober: Tab was looking at handling the disclosure triangle via ::marker
  292. # [19:02] <fantasai> plinss: Is a case where we might need extra markup
  293. # [19:02] <fantasai> hober: Nothing's stopping authors from wrapping contents in a DIV
  294. # [19:03] <fantasai> fantasai: The bit I'm not seeing here is the behavior.
  295. # [19:03] <fantasai> fantasai: We can show a disclosure triangle, but that doesn't give it the ability to change the open and close states
  296. # [19:03] <Ms2ger> That's out-of-scope for CSS, I guess
  297. # [19:03] <TabAtkins_> That part is done via the element's own magic.
  298. # [19:04] <TabAtkins_> That is, it's a part of <summary>'s activation behavior.
  299. # [19:04] <fantasai> TabAtkins, is that defined somewhere?
  300. # [19:04] <hober> "The user agent should allow the user to request that the additional information be shown or hidden. To honor a request for the details to be shown, the user agent must set the open attribute on the element to the value open. To honor a request for the information to be hidden, the user agent must remove the open attribute from the element."
  301. # [19:05] <fantasai> fantasai: We definitely need to add something about collapsing stuff, though.
  302. # [19:06] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#the-details-element
  303. # [19:06] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Feb/0130.html
  304. # [19:07] <fantasai> fantasai: Do we have selectors for the open and close states?
  305. # [19:07] <TabAtkins_> Yes, details[open]
  306. # [19:07] <TabAtkins_> Or details:not([open])
  307. # [19:07] <fantasai> TabAtkins: that selects on getAttributeSOMETHINGOROTHER
  308. # [19:07] <TabAtkins_> (The content attribute reflects the state of the element.)
  309. # [19:07] <fantasai> oh, ok
  310. # [19:08] <fantasai> plinss: But we still don't have a way of collapsing the contents that doesn't have an element around it
  311. # [19:08] <fantasai> fantasai: I think we can add something that works similar to 'visibility' or 'speakability' from CSS3 Speech
  312. # [19:09] <fantasai> TabAtkins, I think it'd be handy to have an example of that in the spec
  313. # [19:09] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: Okay, I can file a bug.
  314. # [19:10] <fantasai> like, it could just be [open] { background: pink; } makes it pink when it's open
  315. # [19:10] <fantasai> fantasai: I don't have an issue to file, anyone else?
  316. # [19:10] <fantasai> RESOLVED: No comment on <details>
  317. # [19:11] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#the-iframe-element
  318. # [19:11] <fantasai> plinss: <iframe seamless>
  319. # [19:11] <TabAtkins_> Done: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13615
  320. # [19:11] <fantasai> fantasai: So what does seamless do ...
  321. # [19:12] <fantasai> fantasai: So this is *not* about replaced elements
  322. # [19:12] <TabAtkins_> seamless makes the iframe act more-or-less like its contents were just embedded into the outer document.
  323. # [19:12] <fantasai> fantasai: This is way more sophisticated than adjusting the height of a replaced element
  324. # [19:12] <TabAtkins_> For sizing, at least. Also, selectors cross through the boundary.
  325. # [19:13] <fantasai> fantasai: I'm not sure if I have a comment on this... does anybody else?
  326. # [19:14] <fantasai> fantasai: The only thing I can think is that we need to define handling a document tree that's composed of multiple documents.
  327. # [19:14] <fantasai> fantasai: Ths is effectively an include
  328. # [19:14] <fantasai> plinss: There's bits about setting the intrinsic size of the <iframe> that confuse me
  329. # [19:15] <TabAtkins_> I don't think we need to say anything, really. The tree is still well-formed.
  330. # [19:15] <fantasai> fantasai: yeah, that doesn't make sense ..
  331. # [19:16] <fantasai> TabAtkins, defining cascading and inheritance should be our responsibility, ideally ...
  332. # [19:16] <fantasai> plinss: This whole section of HTML frightens and confuses me
  333. # [19:17] <TabAtkins_> Actually, my statement's not quite true. Selectors don't match across the document boundary. However, stylesheets from the outer document are applied to the inner document as well. Then, inheritance applies between the <iframe> and the inner <html>.
  334. # [19:17] <fantasai> hober: Yes. But seamless <iframe> is still treated as a replaced element.
  335. # [19:17] <fantasai> fantasai: I'm not sure...
  336. # [19:17] <fantasai> fantasai: What if you make it a circle with exclusions or something?
  337. # [19:17] <fantasai> hober^: It's still just a rectangle
  338. # [19:18] <fantasai> plinss: Is it just a replaced element where the style bleeds through and you don't get a border? Or is it something different?
  339. # [19:18] <TabAtkins_> For sizing, it *should* be saying that the width is computed as if it were a non-replaced element (without any contents). The height is set to the bounding box of the inner document.
  340. # [19:19] <fantasai> hober: I think it's just a replaced element with the listed exceptions
  341. # [19:19] <fantasai> fantasai: What happens if you set 'width: min-content' on it?
  342. # [19:19] <TabAtkins_> Presumably it's still sized as if it has no content, and thus would shrink to zero?
  343. # [19:19] <TabAtkins_> Good question.
  344. # [19:20] <Zakim> -kimberlyblessing
  345. # 02[19:20] * Quits: kimberlyblessing (Kimberly@68.63.100.78) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 6.0/20110729080751])
  346. # [19:20] <fantasai> fantasai: yeah, I think this has issues
  347. # [19:20] <TabAtkins_> Okay, so we should file some stuff on the sizing of seamless iframes.
  348. # 06[19:20] * sylvaing is quite frightened and confused when plinss is frightened and confused
  349. # 06[19:20] * hober sylvaing: :)
  350. # [19:21] <fantasai> fantasai: I don't think this is quite thought through.
  351. # [19:21] <oyvind> "height is set to the bounding box of the inner document" - sounds circular reference-y
  352. # [19:21] <fantasai> dbaron: It's just including the box tree
  353. # [19:21] <fantasai> fantasai: Is it that or treating as a replaced element?
  354. # [19:22] <fantasai> fantasai: It says set the intrinsic height to this and intrinsic width to that. That gives it an intrinsic ration. Do you scale it when you change the width?
  355. # [19:22] <fantasai> s/it/its height/
  356. # [19:22] <fantasai> dbaron: ... I guess it's not that clear.
  357. # [19:22] <fantasai> plinss: Bottom line, what do we say to HTML?
  358. # [19:22] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: Going strictly by the definition, you'd change the intrinsic width when the page's width changed. ^_^
  359. # [19:22] <TabAtkins_> Dammit, reference/minuting fail on my part.
  360. # [19:23] <TabAtkins_> s/fantasai/TabAtkins_/
  361. # [19:23] <fantasai> fantasai: "You're messing withe the CSS box model in ways you do not seem to understand. Maybe you should talk to us and work on a spec jointly." :)
  362. # [19:23] <TabAtkins_> I think we should file a bug on @seamless to fix the way its sizing is defined.
  363. # 06[19:23] * fantasai tab, your comments won't get interpreted as minutes because you're not the scribe
  364. # 06[19:23] * TabAtkins_ Oh, cool.
  365. # [19:23] <dbaron> I don't think it's as bad as fantasai says, but I do think it needs to be better defined.
  366. # 06[19:23] * fantasai that's what ScribeNick is for
  367. # [19:24] <fantasai> plinss: So can someone please take an action to write up a coherent comment here?
  368. # [19:24] <TabAtkins_> I can do that.
  369. # [19:24] <fantasai> ACTION TabAtkins: Write up a comment on seamless
  370. # 06[19:24] * RRSAgent records action 2
  371. # 06[19:24] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  372. # [19:24] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - TabAtkins
  373. # [19:24] <fantasai> ACTION Tab: Write up a comment on seamless
  374. # 06[19:24] * RRSAgent records action 3
  375. # 06[19:24] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  376. # [19:24] <trackbot> Created ACTION-360 - Write up a comment on seamless [on Tab Atkins Jr. - due 2011-08-10].
  377. # [19:25] <fantasai> plinss: Scoped style sheets
  378. # [19:25] <fantasai> plinss: comment says they're not needed?
  379. # [19:25] <fantasai> dbaron: I think we do need them. And we need to define them.
  380. # [19:25] <fantasai> plinss: I'll agree with that.
  381. # [19:26] <oyvind> (my previous comment was in response to what Tab said, I see now that the spec sets initial containing block height to 0)
  382. # [19:26] <TabAtkins_> Me too.
  383. # 02[19:26] * Quits: lhnz (lhnz@188.223.83.48) (Ping timeout)
  384. # [19:26] <fantasai> fantasai: I have to go, but my comments on the rest are that, If chapter 10 is the rendering section, we should adopt Bert's comment on that.
  385. # [19:26] <fantasai> fantasai: Anne said the next one is wrong, so no issue
  386. # [19:26] <fantasai> fantasai: namespaces issue is out-of-scope for us imo, and I don't see it as an issue.
  387. # 06[19:27] * TabAtkins_ should actually go to work at some point, too.
  388. # [19:27] <fantasai> fantasai: you can discuss scoped without me, I will not be able to minute?
  389. # [19:27] <fantasai> dbaron: Anything to discuss?
  390. # [19:27] <fantasai> fantasai: What the comment should say?
  391. # [19:27] <fantasai> ScribeNick: nobody
  392. # 02[19:27] * Quits: karl (karlcow@128.30.54.58) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  393. # [19:27] <Zakim> -fantasai
  394. # [19:27] <hober> ScribeNick: hober
  395. # [19:27] <TabAtkins_> I think we should pull scoped-ness into CSS directly at some point, but I also think that <style scoped> works just fine as is.
  396. # [19:28] <hober> dbaron: I'm not convinced we need to make a comment here
  397. # 06[19:28] * sylvaing is headed to the office.
  398. # [19:28] <hober> plinss: drop this comment then?
  399. # [19:28] <hober> hober: sure
  400. # [19:29] <hober> plinss: accept comment on chapter 10?
  401. # [19:29] <hober> sylvaing: agreed re: chapter 10
  402. # [19:29] <Zakim> -sylvaing
  403. # [19:29] <hober> plinss: Pseudo-namespaces
  404. # [19:29] <hober> plinss: fantasai said she thought this was out of scope
  405. # [19:30] <TabAtkins_> HTML defines namespaces properly. All HTML elements are in a namespace, regardless of whether you use the HTML or XHTML serialization.
  406. # [19:30] <hober> plinss: i think it's fine for an html document to have a namespace
  407. # [19:30] <TabAtkins_> And it's *definitely* not a CSS issue.
  408. # [19:31] <hober> dbaron: the way text/html parsing works, dom elements get the xhtml, svg, or mathml namespaces
  409. # [19:31] <hober> plinss: drop this comment
  410. # [19:31] <Zakim> -dbaron
  411. # [19:31] <Zakim> -[Apple.a]
  412. # [19:31] <Zakim> -[Apple]
  413. # [19:34] <TabAtkins_> We done, or still talking?
  414. # 03[19:34] * Joins: lhnz (lhnz@188.223.83.48)
  415. # 02[19:35] * Quits: oyvind (oyvinds@213.236.208.22) (Quit: oyvind)
  416. # [19:35] <TabAtkins_> I will assume done, and head to work.
  417. # 02[19:35] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@17.197.32.11) (Quit: dsinger)
  418. # 02[19:35] * Quits: TabAtkins_ (chatzilla@76.253.3.102) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.13/2009073109])
  419. # 06[19:35] * dbaron Zakim, who is on the phone?
  420. # 06[19:35] * Zakim sees on the phone: plinss
  421. # [19:36] <Ms2ger> Zakim, make logs public
  422. # [19:36] <Zakim> I don't understand 'make logs public', Ms2ger
  423. # [19:36] <Ms2ger> Zakim, make minutes public
  424. # [19:36] <Zakim> I don't understand 'make minutes public', Ms2ger
  425. # [19:36] <Ms2ger> :(
  426. # [19:36] <dbaron> RRSAgent, make logs public
  427. # [19:36] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, dbaron
  428. # [19:36] <dbaron> too many bots, you see
  429. # [19:36] <Ms2ger> Yeah
  430. # [19:36] <nimbu> :)
  431. # [19:36] <dbaron> and then there's trackbot which is capable of managing all the other bots
  432. # [19:36] <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, plinss, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
  433. # [19:36] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  434. # [19:36] <Zakim> Attendees were plinss, dsinger, kimberlyblessing, +1.206.324.aaaa, sylvaing, [Microsoft], fantasai, +1.650.618.aabb, dbaron, hober, [Apple]
  435. # 02[19:37] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@98.232.9.174) (Ping timeout)
  436. # 03[20:02] * Joins: arronei (arronei@131.107.0.115)
  437. # 02[20:02] * Quits: arronei_ (arronei@131.107.0.81) (Ping timeout)
  438. # 02[21:00] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@173.228.28.196) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  439. # 03[21:12] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.101)
  440. # 02[21:23] * Quits: arronei (arronei@131.107.0.115) (Ping timeout)
  441. # 03[21:24] * Joins: arronei (arronei@131.107.0.117)
  442. # [21:36] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Can I shift your "split" thread back over to www-style?
  443. # [21:45] <fantasai> TabAtkins: sure
  444. # 03[21:46] * Joins: arno (arno@171.66.160.70)
  445. # 02[21:47] * Quits: arno (arno@171.66.160.70) (Quit: Leaving.)
  446. # 06[22:00] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  447. # 03[22:00] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.169)
  448. # [22:02] <fantasai> TabAtkins: posted
  449. # 02[22:07] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.101) (Ping timeout)
  450. # 03[22:09] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.101)
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  456. # 02[22:25] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.101) (Connection reset by peer)
  457. # 03[22:39] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.80)
  458. # 03[22:48] * Joins: arno (arno@128.12.115.255)
  459. # 03[22:55] * Joins: nimbupani (Adium@157.22.251.133)
  460. # 02[22:55] * Quits: nimbu (Adium@157.22.251.133) (Connection reset by peer)
  461. # 02[22:55] * Quits: arno (arno@128.12.115.255) (Quit: Leaving.)
  462. # [23:09] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Did you get my sms?
  463. # [23:16] <TabAtkins> Yes.
  464. # 02[23:21] * Quits: Ms2ger (Ms2ger@91.181.50.33) (Quit: nn)
  465. # [23:33] <fantasai> TabAtkins: dump your HTML comment draft into the wiki? plinss can aggregate them and send them together
  466. # [23:36] <TabAtkins> kk, just a sec
  467. # 02[23:42] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.80) (Connection reset by peer)
  468. # 06[23:42] * fantasai dumps the minutes onto www-style
  469. # Session Close: Thu Aug 04 00:00:00 2011

The end :)