/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2011-08-10 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Aug 10 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  40. # [17:49] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.169)
  41. # [17:49] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/08/10-css-irc
  42. # [17:50] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.169)
  43. # [17:50] <plinss> zakim, this will be style
  44. # [17:50] <Zakim> ok, plinss; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 14 minutes
  45. # [17:50] <plinss> rrsagent, make logs public
  46. # [17:50] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, plinss
  47. # [17:52] * Joins: stearns (anonymous@50.132.9.217)
  48. # [17:59] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  49. # [17:59] <Zakim> +plinss
  50. # [18:00] <nimbupani> plinss: is it okay if I join only via IRC for today?
  51. # [18:00] <Zakim> +??P5
  52. # [18:00] <florian> Zakim, I am ??P5
  53. # [18:00] <Zakim> +florian; got it
  54. # [18:00] <plinss> nimbupani: sure
  55. # [18:00] <nimbupani> thanks!
  56. # [18:01] * Joins: oyvind (oyvinds@213.236.208.22)
  57. # [18:01] <Zakim> + +1.206.550.aaaa
  58. # [18:02] <stearns> Zakim, I am aaaa
  59. # [18:02] <Zakim> +stearns; got it
  60. # [18:02] <Zakim> +??P7
  61. # [18:02] <danielweck> Zakim, ??P7 is me
  62. # [18:02] <Zakim> +danielweck; got it
  63. # [18:03] * Quits: arronei (arronei@131.107.0.117) (Quit: arronei)
  64. # [18:04] <Zakim> + +1.619.846.aabb
  65. # [18:04] <hober> Zakim, aabb is me
  66. # [18:04] <Zakim> +hober; got it
  67. # [18:04] <Zakim> + +1.215.286.aacc
  68. # [18:04] * Joins: kimberlyblessing (Kimberly@68.81.71.240)
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  71. # [18:05] <Zakim> +??P14
  72. # [18:06] <Zakim> + +1.650.275.aadd
  73. # [18:06] <bradk> zakim, aadd is me
  74. # [18:06] <Zakim> +bradk; got it
  75. # [18:07] <Zakim> +??P18
  76. # [18:07] <bradk> Zakim, who is on the phone?
  77. # [18:07] <Zakim> On the phone I see plinss, florian, stearns, danielweck, hober, +1.215.286.aacc, ??P14, bradk, ??P18
  78. # [18:07] <Zakim> + +1.408.636.aaee
  79. # [18:08] <kimberlyblessing> Zakim, aacc is me
  80. # [18:08] <Zakim> +kimberlyblessing; got it
  81. # [18:08] * Joins: smfr (smfr@173.228.90.246)
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  83. # [18:08] <fantasai> Zakim, mute ??P18
  84. # [18:08] <Zakim> ??P18 should now be muted
  85. # [18:08] <fantasai> Zakim, unmute ??P18
  86. # [18:08] <Zakim> ??P18 should no longer be muted
  87. # [18:08] <plinss> zakim, aaee is smfr
  88. # [18:08] <Zakim> +smfr; got it
  89. # [18:08] <fantasai> Zakim, ??P14 is me
  90. # [18:08] <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
  91. # [18:08] <smfr> Zakim forgot us all again
  92. # [18:08] <fantasai> zakim, mute me
  93. # [18:08] <Zakim> fantasai should now be muted
  94. # [18:08] * Joins: TabAtkins_ (chatzilla@76.253.1.30)
  95. # [18:08] <fantasai> zakim, unmute me
  96. # [18:08] <Zakim> fantasai should no longer be muted
  97. # [18:09] * Zakim hears plinss's hand up
  98. # [18:09] * Zakim sees plinss on the speaker queue
  99. # [18:09] <Zakim> + +1.281.712.aaff
  100. # [18:09] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  101. # [18:09] <arronei> zakim, microsoft is me
  102. # [18:09] <Zakim> +arronei; got it
  103. # [18:09] <TabAtkins_> Zakim, aaff is me
  104. # [18:09] <Zakim> +TabAtkins_; got it
  105. # [18:09] <plinss> zakim, ack
  106. # [18:09] <Zakim> I don't understand 'ack', plinss
  107. # [18:09] <fantasai> zakim, ack plinss
  108. # [18:09] <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
  109. # [18:09] <plinss> zakim, q-
  110. # [18:09] <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
  111. # [18:10] <Zakim> -bradk
  112. # [18:10] <bradk> doh!
  113. # [18:10] <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
  114. # [18:10] <fantasai> plinss: Any items to add to agenda?
  115. # [18:10] <Zakim> +bradk
  116. # [18:10] <fantasai> plinss: got Alex's note about regions flow
  117. # [18:11] <fantasai> Topic: Gradient issues
  118. # [18:11] <Zakim> +Bert
  119. # [18:11] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: Mainly issues we didn't close on at F2F
  120. # [18:11] <Zakim> -bradk
  121. # [18:11] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: First item is repeating gradients, whether they should be done by repeating syntax in gradient functions, or by background-repeat magic
  122. # [18:11] * Bert on about the 10th try, zakim finally let me in :-(
  123. # [18:12] <Zakim> + +47.21.65.aagg
  124. # [18:12] * Joins: howcome (howcome@88.89.78.85)
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  126. # [18:12] <Zakim> +bradk
  127. # [18:12] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: Other issue is gradient keywords, i've now set the keyword 'to' and either a side or corner
  128. # [18:12] <plinss> zakim, who is noisy?
  129. # [18:12] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: e.g. 'to bottom left'
  130. # [18:12] <bradk> stupid phone
  131. # [18:12] <Zakim> + +1.650.618.aahh
  132. # [18:12] <Zakim> plinss, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: smfr (24%), TabAtkins_ (34%)
  133. # [18:12] * dbaron Zakim, aahh is dbaron
  134. # [18:12] * Zakim +dbaron; got it
  135. # [18:12] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: Put keywords back and made keywords magic again
  136. # [18:13] <fantasai> Florian is happy with this too
  137. # [18:13] <fantasai> s/keywords/corners/
  138. # [18:13] <Zakim> + +1.415.832.aaii
  139. # [18:13] <fantasai> smfr: I think it's ok, but why not use 'from' and make the 'from' optional so we have compat with the old syntax?
  140. # [18:13] * Joins: vhardy (vhardy@192.150.10.201)
  141. # [18:13] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: Using 'from' rather than 'to' would give the opposite directionalitiy thing that confused people
  142. # [18:13] <fantasai> smfr: Only some people
  143. # [18:14] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: Since we're changing behavior for corner to corner, so ...
  144. # [18:15] <fantasai> fantasai: I think this is also confusing, with 'to left' I'm not sure whether a fixed-length gradient is attached to the left or right edge -- I would guess right edge
  145. # [18:15] <fantasai> Florian: Think this is good enough
  146. # [18:16] <fantasai> fantasai: Another question is animating the gradients, given corners aren't equivalent to angle gradients anymore?
  147. # [18:16] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: They're still equivalent
  148. # [18:17] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: It's just a different angle
  149. # [18:17] <fantasai> computation
  150. # [18:18] <fantasai> bradk: Does the spec take into account that changing the angle changes if the box size changes?
  151. # [18:18] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: yes. More details to in css4-images -- I pushed animations out of L3
  152. # [18:18] <fantasai> bradk: How is it defined now?
  153. # [18:18] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: Right now images aren't animatable at all, rules are pushed to L4
  154. # [18:19] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: Since I pushed cross-fade() to L4, you can't do generic animations for images anyway, so pushed gradient animations out too
  155. # [18:19] <fantasai> plinss: If you're animating the width and height of a box independently and using corner-to-corner gradient, you are by definition of the gradient angle?
  156. # [18:20] <fantasai> plinss: If you're then simultaneously animating angle of gradient.. if you compute start point and endpoint, might have animation go retrograde
  157. # [18:20] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: Yeah, that should not happen.
  158. # [18:20] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: have similar problems in other situations
  159. # [18:20] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: At each step you need to recalculate your range
  160. # [18:20] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: Different than snapshotting values at the beginning
  161. # [18:21] <fantasai> Florian: You set your course, and your percentage done changes over time
  162. # [18:21] <fantasai> plinss: Back to keywords issue
  163. # [18:21] <fantasai> fantasai: Would like to push to WD and see if we get any comments
  164. # [18:21] <fantasai> bradk: I like what's happening in linear gradient, still trying to give full review to radial gradients
  165. # [18:21] <fantasai> bradk: Not ready for LC yet
  166. # [18:21] <Zakim> -danielweck
  167. # [18:22] <Zakim> +??P7
  168. # [18:22] <danielweck> Zakim, ??P7 is me
  169. # [18:22] <Zakim> +danielweck; got it
  170. # [18:22] <fantasai> Florian: The default for linear gradients has been downward for a long time, which is now either 'to bottom' or '180deg'
  171. # [18:22] <fantasai> Florian: Usually default is 0deg or top
  172. # [18:23] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: He's suggesting that we flip the default around they colors start at the bottom and go upward
  173. # [18:23] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: I don't have a problem with this, but don't have a particular reason to change. It's been default for awhile
  174. # [18:23] <fantasai> bradk: Fallback is still reasonable, because we're changing the syntax
  175. # [18:23] <fantasai> fantasai: We're not changing that part of the syntax
  176. # [18:24] <fantasai> fantasai: I think the default should stay. I think from the top makes the most sense
  177. # [18:24] <fantasai> bradk: Wouldn't changing it mess up prefixed versions?
  178. # [18:24] <fantasai> fantasai: dbaron already said he won't do that
  179. # [18:25] <fantasai> plinss: In general we're not going to not make a good change to a property because of prefixed versions
  180. # [18:25] <fantasai> plinss: If it doesn't matter much, sure, but in general don't want to consider prefixed versions
  181. # [18:26] <fantasai> Florian: Since there's no consensus to change, let's leave as-is
  182. # [18:26] <fantasai> smfr: Mark as an issue?
  183. # [18:26] <fantasai> smfr: Do we need direction keywords that are writing-mode-aware?
  184. # [18:27] <fantasai> Florian: And bidi-aware, too
  185. # [18:27] <fantasai> Florian: Should we add that to writing-modes?
  186. # [18:27] <fantasai> fantasai: No, belongs in the appropriate module. writing-modes only deals with CSS2.1 issues
  187. # [18:28] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: Could add them. Although the keywords are a bit weird, e.g. 'to start before'.
  188. # [18:28] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: Would like to see some examples of this
  189. # [18:28] <fantasai> bradk: Gradient from black to white from top to bottom, and reversed-color headline at the top
  190. # [18:29] <fantasai> fantasai: Example of sidebar menu items with horizontal gradient that fades out towards the end edge. Would want that logical as well
  191. # [18:30] <fantasai> Florian: [something about writing modes dependency]
  192. # [18:30] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: Don't believe I need any keywords from writing modes
  193. # [18:30] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: Could maybe refer to 2.1
  194. # [18:30] <florian> Yes
  195. # [18:31] <fantasai> fantasai: Nothing in 2.1, but if it becomes an issue we could pull out a glossary from writing-modes and publish it as a WG Note or something
  196. # [18:31] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Add logical keywords to gradients
  197. # [18:31] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Publish next WD with 'to <keyword>' syntax
  198. # [18:32] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: back to repeating gradient issue
  199. # [18:32] <fantasai> bradk: Already made my case. Not keep arguing it
  200. # [18:32] <fantasai> bradk: Someday we'll have background-rotate, and it will just be redundant
  201. # [18:33] <fantasai> some muttering about issue syntax
  202. # [18:33] <fantasai> s/syntax/wording/
  203. # [18:33] <fantasai> RESOLVED: No change to how repeating gradients are handled (use repeat-* functions)
  204. # [18:34] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Publish updated WD of css3-images with these changes
  205. # [18:35] <fantasai> Topic: CSS Speech LCWD
  206. # [18:35] <danielweck> I am on a high-latency and generally slow wifi connection (scrambled VoIP audio),
  207. # [18:35] <danielweck> so I will be dumping IRC text while I speak.
  208. # [18:35] <danielweck> All of the issues that were raised for CSS-SPEECH on the public mailing list
  209. # [18:35] <danielweck> have now been addressed in the specification.
  210. # [18:35] <danielweck> I would like to renew my thanks to Fantasai for finding problems,
  211. # [18:35] <danielweck> and in helping to design solutions too ;)
  212. # [18:35] <danielweck> The editors' working draft is ready for Last Call publication,
  213. # [18:35] <danielweck> and contains the full list of changes since the last public Working Draft (April 2011).
  214. # [18:35] <plinss> speak: fantasai
  215. # [18:36] <danielweck> http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-speech/
  216. # [18:36] <danielweck> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-speech/
  217. # [18:36] <fantasai> voice-family: fantasai
  218. # [18:36] <danielweck> any objections?
  219. # [18:36] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: I haven't given it a thorough review, but I know fantasai has, so I trust that.
  220. # [18:37] <fantasai> smfr: I have no objection, but I'm concerned about making a test suite
  221. # [18:37] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: I know someone suggested audio reftests shoudl be possible.
  222. # [18:37] <danielweck> I saw the discussion about tests, but wanted to focus on fixing the spec first
  223. # [18:38] <fantasai> fantasai: And we can always use human-verifiable tests. Not automatable, but still testable.
  224. # [18:38] <fantasai> plinss: Any reasons not to publish?
  225. # [18:38] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Publish LCWD of css3-speech
  226. # [18:38] <danielweck> yes.
  227. # [18:38] <fantasai> fantasai: How long is the LC period, and which other WGs to contact?
  228. # [18:38] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: Accessibility TF
  229. # [18:38] <danielweck> (yes to contacting other groups)
  230. # [18:39] <danielweck> HTML-Speech
  231. # [18:39] <danielweck> Voice Browser (SSML )
  232. # [18:39] <fantasai> fantasai: Voice Browser group?
  233. # [18:39] <fantasai> fantasai: yes, definitely SSML :)
  234. # [18:40] <danielweck> my previous email
  235. # [18:40] <danielweck> - The "Voice Browser" Working Group [1] published SSML1.1 [2], so we should definitely ask them to review CSS3-Speech.
  236. # [18:40] <danielweck> - The "HTML Speech" Incubator Group [3] maintains a W3C Note [4] that explicitly refers to CSS3-Speech effort, so we should contact them too.
  237. # [18:40] <danielweck> - Given the likelihood of CSS3-Speech being used with/by assistive technologies, I suggest involving the WAI [5] folks as well.
  238. # [18:40] <danielweck> Regards, Daniel
  239. # [18:40] <danielweck> [1]
  240. # [18:40] <danielweck> http://www.w3.org/Voice/
  241. # [18:40] <danielweck> [2]
  242. # [18:40] <danielweck> http://www.w3.org/TR/speech-synthesis11/
  243. # [18:40] <danielweck> [3]
  244. # [18:40] <danielweck> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/htmlspeech/
  245. # [18:40] <danielweck> [4]
  246. # [18:40] <danielweck> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/htmlspeech/live/NOTE-htmlspeech.html
  247. # [18:40] <danielweck> [5]
  248. # [18:40] <danielweck> http://www.w3.org/WAI/
  249. # [18:40] <fantasai> Bert: Can't think of any other groups, but because it's summer maybe we should add a few weeks since it's August [and many people are on vacation]
  250. # [18:41] <danielweck> end of september sounds good.
  251. # [18:41] <danielweck> (summer holidays)
  252. # [18:41] <danielweck> (now)
  253. # [18:41] <florian> +1 for end of september
  254. # [18:41] <fantasai> Bert: Yes, end of September is good
  255. # [18:41] <fantasai> RESOLVED: End comment period at end of September
  256. # [18:41] <danielweck> thanks.
  257. # [18:41] <fantasai> Topic: CSS3 Values
  258. # [18:41] <fantasai> plinss: Request to add some editors
  259. # [18:42] * Joins: jeam (jeam@200.6.100.6)
  260. # [18:42] <fantasai> howcome: What does it need?
  261. # [18:42] <Zakim> -stearns
  262. # [18:42] <fantasai> fantasai: Organizational overhaul, fix issues that have outstanding edits for past two years, sync with 2.1
  263. # [18:43] <Zakim> +stearns
  264. # [18:43] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: This isn't theoreticaly, fantasai and I went ahead and did the majority of the work we'd like to see done
  265. # [18:43] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: We created a patch queue that could be applied to show what we'd like to see out of the draft
  266. # [18:44] * Quits: danielweck (danielweck@2.11.20.244) (Connection reset by peer)
  267. # [18:44] <fantasai> fantaai: We didn't change any of the features, just fixed up the definitions
  268. # [18:44] <fantasai> howcome: I believe dbaron and clilley are co-editors as well
  269. # [18:44] <fantasai> howcome: It also affects SVG, not sure it's up to us to just take it
  270. # [18:44] * Joins: danielweck (danielweck@2.11.20.244)
  271. # [18:44] <fantasai> howcome: Very important spec for other modules, don't necessarily think we can bring it to closure
  272. # [18:44] <fantasai> howcome: Is dbaron on the call?
  273. # [18:45] <fantasai> howcome: You've gone through this?
  274. # [18:45] <fantasai> dbaron: I thought I had an action to do one thing at some point, but I have no record of it
  275. # [18:45] <Zakim> -danielweck
  276. # [18:45] <fantasai> howcome: You did the definitions that's in there for calc(), right?
  277. # [18:45] <fantasai> dbaron: I might've written some of it
  278. # [18:45] <fantasai> howcome: I'm not trying to block progress here. Trying to avoid that we see a lot of changes come out that are not ...
  279. # [18:45] <Zakim> +??P7
  280. # [18:45] <danielweck> Zakim, ??P7 is me
  281. # [18:45] <Zakim> +danielweck; got it
  282. # [18:45] <fantasai> howcome: we saw for example the hyphenation things that we had a lot of unnecessary conflicts as a result of that change
  283. # [18:46] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: We're not trying to change any features.
  284. # [18:46] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: Any conflicts would be about more basic definitions that should be nailed down in any case
  285. # [18:46] <fantasai> howcome: You plan to take it to CR?
  286. # [18:46] <fantasai> fantasai: yes
  287. # [18:46] <fantasai> howcome: What if a spec needs other values?
  288. # [18:47] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: Can define it themself. And if it's a common value type, push it to Values Level 4
  289. # [18:47] <fantasai> plinss: Sounds like a reasonable path forward.
  290. # [18:47] <fantasai> plinss: Would like to not keep this in ED forever
  291. # [18:47] <fantasai> howcome: I'm just concerned about making lots of substantial changes
  292. # [18:48] <Zakim> -danielweck
  293. # [18:48] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: We think the features are fine, just reorganized a bit and updated definitions
  294. # [18:48] <fantasai> howcome: I think there's issues with calc()
  295. # [18:48] <fantasai> howcome: Not sure about implementations
  296. # [18:48] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: We're in the middle of implementing
  297. # [18:48] <Zakim> +??P7
  298. # [18:48] <fantasai> dbaron: And IE's implement it too
  299. # [18:49] <fantasai> howcome: Great. Should check with SVGWG if they're ok with this
  300. # [18:49] <danielweck> Zakim, ??P7 is me
  301. # [18:49] <Zakim> +danielweck; got it
  302. # [18:49] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: Again, since we're not actually changing any features, shouldn't be an issue. Although if SVGWG wants to add stuff to the draft, then good to get that feedback
  303. # [18:49] <dbaron> there are a bunch of calc()-related resolutions in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Jan/0468.html
  304. # [18:49] <fantasai> ACTION TabAtkins_ : Discuss editor change on css3-values at FXTF
  305. # [18:49] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  306. # [18:49] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - TabAtkins_
  307. # [18:49] * RRSAgent records action 1
  308. # [18:50] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2011Aug/att-0010/Overview.html
  309. # [18:50] <fantasai> fantasai: The only feature change we did was to add dbaron's cycle() proposal to the draft; there was an open action on that since Jan 2009
  310. # [18:51] <fantasai> plinss: Not hearing any objections to adding you-guys as co-editors
  311. # [18:51] <fantasai> plinss: Ready to publish WD?
  312. # [18:52] <fantasai> fantasai: dbaron just pointed to some resolutions on calc(), need to make sure they're folded in
  313. # [18:52] <fantasai> dbaron: I think they have been folded in, but prose could use some work
  314. # [18:52] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: So let's look at publishing next week
  315. # [18:52] <fantasai> Topic: HTML talking about paragraphs pseudo-element selector?
  316. # [18:52] <dbaron> Also, there was a resolution somewhere on making certain things at-risk.
  317. # [18:53] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: Bug was on HTML for allowing styling of anonymous blocks created by block-in-inline split
  318. # [18:53] <hober> <div>para1<ul><li>foo</li></ul>para2</div>
  319. # [18:53] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: So you could give it padding, margin, etc.
  320. # [18:53] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: Guessing what it means is that ::paragraph would match all anonymous block children of an element
  321. # [18:53] <hober> div ::paragraph matches para1 and para2 above
  322. # [18:53] <fantasai> plinss: Is this something we want to accept? Where would ot go?
  323. # [18:54] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: The pseudo-element section of Selectors?
  324. # [18:54] <dbaron> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Sep/0003.html has resolutions on marking things in values at risk
  325. # [18:54] <fantasai> fantasai: There isn't one anymore. Could add it to CSS3 Box.
  326. # [18:54] <fantasai> fantasai: That's what defines where boxes are generated
  327. # [18:55] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Assign this as an issue to the box module
  328. # [18:55] <plinss> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12778
  329. # [18:55] <dbaron> fantasai, you're planning to land the css3-values patch queue as separate commits, right?
  330. # [18:55] <fantasai> dbaron, yes :)
  331. # [18:56] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: Is this the best way for HTMLWG to send comments to CSSWG?
  332. # [18:56] <fantasai> fantasai: Did they email www-style?
  333. # [18:56] <fantasai> fantasai: They should post a message to www-style, just like everyone else.
  334. # [18:56] <fantasai> plinss: If they want to make sure we get to it, they can CC the internal list or put it on the agenda so we discuss it on the call
  335. # [18:57] <fantasai> Topic: flow-from()
  336. # [18:57] <fantasai> plinss: Alex sent an email about content: flow-from() vs flow-from: property
  337. # [18:58] <fantasai> Alex: We discussed what the right property for making something a region
  338. # [18:58] <fantasai> Alex: We decided that we like content: flow-from() more than property flow-from:
  339. # [18:58] <fantasai> Alex: At the moment it sounded totally syntactical
  340. # [18:58] <fantasai> Alex: Looks like difference is even more
  341. # [18:58] <fantasai> Alex: The 'content' property is part of generated content
  342. # [18:58] <fantasai> Alex: Includes ::before and ::after
  343. # [18:58] <fantasai> Alex: That property is what is supposed to put content in the box, not change the nature of the box
  344. # [18:59] <fantasai> Alex: It's not whatever layout it was anymore, it's a viewport into something else
  345. # [18:59] <fantasai> Alex: It's still possible to parse the property and if the only thing it has is flow-from() then that particular value overrides ::before and ::after
  346. # [18:59] <vhardy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2011JulSep/0164.html
  347. # [18:59] <fantasai> Alex: and changes layout model
  348. # [19:00] <fantasai> Alex: I feel pity for content property that it gets such a weird definition
  349. # [19:00] <vhardy> response from Elika: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2011JulSep/0165.html
  350. # [19:00] <fantasai> plinss: I think having ::before and ::after work in regions is valuables
  351. # [19:00] <vhardy> response from Vincent: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2011JulSep/0171.html
  352. # [19:00] <stearns> +1 to using before and after in regions
  353. # [19:01] <fantasai> vhardy: We had a long discussion about ::before and ::after, because we had talked about having these continue-before / continue-after markers
  354. # [19:01] <fantasai> vhardy: Our proposals are to have different pseudos that have a different processing model, that are exclusions
  355. # [19:01] <fantasai> vhardy: It's different from ::before and ::after
  356. # [19:02] <fantasai> ...
  357. # [19:02] <fantasai> Alex: Generic ::before and ::after is not really helpful
  358. # [19:02] <fantasai> bradk: What about ::marker?
  359. # [19:02] <fantasai> bradk: Isn't that equivalently a problem?
  360. # [19:02] <fantasai> Alex: vhardy said his preference is still content: flow-from(). My preference is flow-from:
  361. # [19:03] <fantasai> Alex: content property can have fallbacks. If one of those is a flow-from(), then first we have to visit all the URLs.
  362. # [19:03] <fantasai> first
  363. # [19:03] <fantasai> Alex: Unless flow-from() has to be its only value
  364. # [19:03] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: You said that a region is not a normal element, like it becomes a viewport onto this embedded document
  365. # [19:04] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: Wouldn't that indicate that the 'display' property is appropriate?
  366. # [19:04] <fantasai> Alex: It would make sense for display-inside to have a region value
  367. # [19:04] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: Then that seems like an appropriate way to do this
  368. # [19:04] <fantasai> vhardy: So your suggestion is display-inside: flow-from(..) ?
  369. # [19:05] <fantasai> Alex: ...
  370. # [19:05] <fantasai> Alex: Region has to say that it ignores ::before and ::after
  371. # [19:05] <smfr> am I hearing "display: region"?
  372. # [19:06] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: Having a value for display makes more sense to me, clearer that it has all these other side-effects
  373. # [19:06] <fantasai> Alex: Should we make css3-regions be the pioneer for display-inside?
  374. # [19:06] <fantasai> bradk: What does a new display type gain you?
  375. # [19:06] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: The significant switch is that 'display' is very clear that this is doing something very different
  376. # [19:07] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: ... something about conflict resolution ...
  377. # [19:07] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: If 'display' is the switch, then you won't ever have conflicts, it's only one type of display or another
  378. # [19:07] <fantasai> bradk: Is it just because of ::marker?
  379. # [19:07] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: yes, but also it's changing how you display what's inside of you
  380. # [19:08] <fantasai> Alex: Display property says what it is, and content property says what it has
  381. # [19:08] <fantasai> smfr: If you have display: region; how do you say what model you're using?
  382. # [19:09] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: You'd need display-inside
  383. # [19:09] <smfr> someone is breathing into their phone
  384. # [19:09] <fantasai> fantasai suggests moving this discussion to www-style
  385. # [19:10] <fantasai> plinss: Meeting closed.
  386. # [19:10] <Zakim> -smfr
  387. # [19:10] <Zakim> - +1.415.832.aaii
  388. # [19:10] <Zakim> -danielweck
  389. # [19:10] <Zakim> -florian
  390. # [19:10] <Zakim> -TabAtkins_
  391. # [19:10] <Zakim> -dbaron
  392. # [19:10] <Zakim> - +47.21.65.aagg
  393. # [19:10] <Zakim> -kimberlyblessing
  394. # [19:10] <Zakim> -plinss
  395. # [19:10] * Quits: kimberlyblessing (Kimberly@68.81.71.240) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 6.0/20110804030150])
  396. # [19:10] <Zakim> -Bert
  397. # [19:10] <Zakim> -hober
  398. # [19:10] * Quits: bradk (bradk@99.7.175.117) (Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/ )
  399. # [19:10] <Zakim> -fantasai
  400. # [19:10] * Quits: smfr (smfr@173.228.90.246) (Quit: smfr)
  401. # [19:10] <Zakim> -stearns
  402. # [19:10] <Zakim> -arronei
  403. # [19:10] <Zakim> -??P18
  404. # [19:10] <Zakim> -bradk
  405. # [19:10] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  406. # [19:10] <Zakim> Attendees were plinss, florian, +1.206.550.aaaa, stearns, danielweck, +1.619.846.aabb, hober, +1.215.286.aacc, +1.650.275.aadd, bradk, +1.408.636.aaee, kimberlyblessing, smfr,
  407. # [19:10] <Zakim> ... fantasai, +1.281.712.aaff, arronei, TabAtkins_, Bert, +47.21.65.aagg, +1.650.618.aahh, dbaron, +1.415.832.aaii
  408. # [19:12] * Parts: florian (florianr@92.140.43.74)
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  423. # [21:54] <imcostalong> having a simple CSS issue can anyone help out
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  426. # [21:59] <imcostalong> is anyone even here?
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The end :)