/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2011-08-17 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Aug 17 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #css
  3. # [00:11] <fantasai> dbaron: fixed
  4. # [00:12] <dbaron> "Connecting to dev.w3.org..." :-(
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  6. # [01:25] <TabAtkins> plinss_ fantasai: Looks like wiki.csswg.org is down.
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  10. # [01:59] -CSSWG_LogBot:#css- This channel is logged - http://log.csswg.org/irc.w3.org/css/
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  13. # [03:31] <plinss> TabAtkins: looks like power issues at the host, see: http://status.linode.com/
  14. # [03:31] <TabAtkins> Ah, kk.
  15. # [03:32] <plinss> interestingly I have a personal host there as well and it didn't go down, so must be a partial issue...
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  69. # [17:59] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/08/17-css-irc
  70. # [17:59] <plinss> zakim, this will be style
  71. # [17:59] <Zakim> ok, plinss; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
  72. # [17:59] <plinss> rrsagent, make logs public
  73. # [17:59] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, plinss
  74. # [18:00] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  75. # [18:00] <Zakim> +??P14
  76. # [18:00] <Zakim> +plinss
  77. # [18:00] <florian> Zakim, I am ??P14
  78. # [18:00] <Zakim> +florian; got it
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  81. # [18:02] <Zakim> +stearns
  82. # [18:02] * Joins: kimberlyblessing (Kimberly@68.81.71.240)
  83. # [18:03] <Zakim> + +1.206.552.aaaa
  84. # [18:03] <nimbupani1> Zakim aaa is me
  85. # [18:03] <nimbupani1> Zakim, aaaa is me
  86. # [18:03] <Zakim> +nimbupani1; got it
  87. # [18:03] * nimbupani1 is now known as nimbu
  88. # [18:04] <plinss> zakim, nimbupani1 is nimbu
  89. # [18:04] <Zakim> +nimbu; got it
  90. # [18:04] <Zakim> +hober
  91. # [18:04] * plinss nimbi, your line is extremely noisy...
  92. # [18:04] <plinss> s/nimbi/nimbu/
  93. # [18:05] <stearns> nimbu is watching airplanes take off
  94. # [18:05] <plinss> zakim, mute nimbu
  95. # [18:05] <Zakim> nimbu should now be muted
  96. # [18:05] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  97. # [18:05] <arronei_> zakim, microsoft is me
  98. # [18:05] <Zakim> +arronei_; got it
  99. # [18:05] <Zakim> + +1.206.324.aabb
  100. # [18:05] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@98.232.9.174)
  101. # [18:05] <nimbu> oops sorry
  102. # [18:05] * Joins: bradk (bradk@99.7.175.117)
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  104. # [18:06] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  105. # [18:06] <Zakim> +Oliver_Goldman
  106. # [18:07] * sylvaing serious static over in Redmond....
  107. # [18:07] <Zakim> + +1.281.305.aacc
  108. # [18:07] * kimberlyblessing can't make the call today, apologies
  109. # [18:07] <Zakim> +??P1
  110. # [18:07] <TabAtkins_> Zakim, aacc is me
  111. # [18:07] <Zakim> +TabAtkins_; got it
  112. # [18:07] <Zakim> +bradk
  113. # [18:07] <TabAtkins_> Oof, that static is killer.
  114. # [18:07] <plinss> zakim, aabb is sylvaing
  115. # [18:07] <Zakim> +sylvaing; got it
  116. # [18:07] <sylvaing> Zakim, who's noisy
  117. # [18:07] <Zakim> I don't understand 'who's noisy', sylvaing
  118. # [18:07] <TabAtkins_> Zakim, who is noisy?
  119. # [18:08] <Zakim> TabAtkins_, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [Microsoft] (79%), TabAtkins_ (23%)
  120. # [18:08] <sylvaing> Zakim, mute [Microsoft]
  121. # [18:08] <Zakim> [Microsoft] should now be muted
  122. # [18:09] <Zakim> +??P31
  123. # [18:09] * sylvaing suspects this was the background radiation noise emanating from the gradient spec ED and its 0.1s half-life.
  124. # [18:10] <Zakim> +SteveZ
  125. # [18:11] <Zakim> + +1.415.832.aadd
  126. # [18:11] <arno> zakim, aadd is arno
  127. # [18:11] <Zakim> +arno; got it
  128. # [18:11] * Joins: smfr (smfr@17.203.14.12)
  129. # [18:11] <TabAtkins_> ScribeNick: TabAtkins_
  130. # [18:11] * Joins: szilles (chatzilla@69.57.63.5)
  131. # [18:12] <TabAtkins_> plinss: Any new agenda items?
  132. # [18:12] <Zakim> +[Sophia]
  133. # [18:12] <Zakim> +smfr
  134. # [18:12] <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: Request to publish Image Values as WD.
  135. # [18:12] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Aug/0461.html
  136. # [18:12] * Bert zakim, Sophia is me
  137. # [18:12] * Zakim +Bert; got it
  138. # [18:12] <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: Any new features?
  139. # [18:12] * Bert excuses for being late
  140. # [18:12] <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: Don't think so (maybe finishing the magic corners thing?)
  141. # [18:13] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  142. # [18:13] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: The i18n group sent comments. We should respond as a WG to that.
  143. # [18:13] <TabAtkins_> plinss: Should we wait to publish, or log as an issue and deal with it later?
  144. # [18:13] <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: Yeah, just interested right now in getting it stable and having a testsuite, then adding new features.
  145. # [18:13] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  146. # [18:14] <TabAtkins_> bradk: Anything to resolve on? Is this for CSS4?
  147. # [18:14] <johnjansen> zakim, microsoft has johnjansen
  148. # [18:14] <Zakim> +johnjansen; got it
  149. # [18:14] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: We moved a lot of things in the split from 3->4, and one of the reasons for the split was implementation status.
  150. # [18:14] <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
  151. # [18:14] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: But that's really for the CR phase.
  152. # [18:14] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.240)
  153. # [18:14] * dbaron Zakim, who is on the phone?
  154. # [18:14] * Zakim sees on the phone: florian, plinss, stearns, nimbu (muted), hober, arronei_, sylvaing, Oliver_Goldman, TabAtkins_, ??P1, bradk, ??P31, SteveZ, arno, Bert, smfr, [Microsoft],
  155. # [18:14] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: We should really be splitting based on whether we think a feature is mature or not.
  156. # [18:14] * Zakim ... [Mozilla]
  157. # [18:14] * Zakim [Microsoft] has johnjansen
  158. # [18:14] * dbaron Zakim, [Mozilla] is dbaron
  159. # [18:14] * Zakim +dbaron; got it
  160. # [18:15] <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: We'd like to drop prefixes on gradients as soon as possible, and don't want to hold it up based on other features that haven't been implemented yet.
  161. # [18:15] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: We don't need to implement to go to CR.
  162. # [18:16] <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: Are we going to put things into level 3 knowing full well that in a few months we'll pull them out again?
  163. # [18:16] <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: But if we've moved something to level 4 tha tmakes the level 3 feature set awkward, I understand.
  164. # [18:17] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: One issue is that if we are holding things back that are otherwise spec-stable from CR, this is bad if someone from another WG is willing to implement.
  165. # [18:17] <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: Something's not stable until it's been implemented.
  166. # [18:17] <TabAtkins_> florian: [something I couldn't understand]
  167. # [18:18] <fantasai> fantasai: I don't want to make it a policy of this WG to hold things back from CR until they have been implemented.
  168. # [18:18] * Joins: alexmog (alexmog@71.237.107.156)
  169. # [18:18] <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: I'm not making policy for the WG here. I'm talking about Image Values, and I don't want to drag it along for any longer than necessary.
  170. # [18:18] <florian> I agree with Fantasai's approach in general, but for this particular case, I would side with Sylvain, so that we can drop prefixes on gradients as soon as possible
  171. # [18:19] <fantasai> Florian, a feature that's not gradients will not hold back prefixes on gradients.
  172. # [18:19] <fantasai> Florian, prefixes are dropped per feature, not per module.
  173. # [18:20] <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: Is there a CSS4 Image Values yet?
  174. # [18:20] <nimbu> ???: instead of calling it css4 you could split it into 2 diff drafts
  175. # [18:20] <nimbu> ???: have gradients in its own spec and everything else in another spec
  176. # [18:20] <TabAtkins_> s/???/bradk/
  177. # [18:20] <nimbu> fantasai: stuff in css4 is less stable.
  178. # [18:20] <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins: There's an Overview.src.html in css4-images, but it's not an actual spec right now.
  179. # [18:20] <florian> Fantasai, I though they were for modules. If not, I withdraw my agreement with Sylvain on this point.
  180. # [18:20] <nimbu> sylvaing: I would like to keep css3 on course of stability but I wouldn't like to remove things there right now.
  181. # [18:21] <florian> Can't we make an ED for level 4, to host all these things?
  182. # [18:21] <TabAtkins_> plinss: I think it would be good to have a list of the things that we've pulled from level 3.
  183. # [18:21] <sylvaing> doesn't see the point of moving things in 3 when we know full well they'll most likely go back to 4 in a few months. what is the value of that ?
  184. # [18:21] <fantasai> florian, Tab did. It's just not very pretty right now :)
  185. # [18:22] <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins: I can make the css4-images look half-decent and have this information.
  186. # [18:22] <sylvaing> I won't object to it, i just can't see what problem it fixes
  187. # [18:22] <TabAtkins_> plinss: So I'm hearing that we leave it at level 4, and respond to i18n that we're not throwing it away, just delaying it.
  188. # [18:23] <dbaron> What set of features are we talking about?
  189. # [18:23] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: My problem is that we haven't had anyone say we're implementing it, but the six-month CR period is specifically designed to try to implement and give feedback.
  190. # [18:23] * TabAtkins_ dbaron, the ltr | rtl keywords in image()
  191. # [18:24] <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: What prevents someone from implementing it because it's in level 4 rather than level ?
  192. # [18:24] <TabAtkins_> s/?/3
  193. # [18:24] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: The perceived stability level is based on the document's level.
  194. # [18:24] <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: We implemented gradients!
  195. # [18:24] <dbaron> Gradients didn't start in this draft; they started with a proprietary implementation and proposal from Apple that eventually found its way into this draft.
  196. # [18:24] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: Gradients are pretty shiny, much more so than i18n.
  197. # [18:25] <sylvaing> er, Tab, not what I said
  198. # [18:25] <fantasai> s/i18nbidi/
  199. # [18:25] * TabAtkins_ sylvain, sorry, that's what I heard. You cut up a bit.
  200. # [18:25] <TabAtkins_> plinss: I think fantasai is just advocating we put it in 3 and mark it as at-risk.
  201. # [18:25] <TabAtkins_> plinss: Is there any problem with that?
  202. # [18:25] <florian> I agree with Fantasai
  203. # [18:26] <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: Will it be shinier if it's in one document or another?
  204. # [18:26] <TabAtkins_> plinss: It does send a message that this is ready and it's ready for implementation and feedback.
  205. # [18:27] <TabAtkins_> plinss: So does anyone object to putting it in the draft as at-risk?
  206. # [18:27] <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: [stuff] I'm not going to object, though I disagree.
  207. # [18:28] <TabAtkins_> RESOLVED: Put ltr | rtl keywords back into image(), mark as at-risk.
  208. # [18:28] <fantasai> fantasai: I don't think it should hold the draft back either, and if we get tons of issues on it we can drop it. But I also don't see that it will hold thing sup either.
  209. # [18:28] <TabAtkins_> Topic: Continuing the Regions discussion from last week
  210. # [18:28] <nimbu> alexmog: you there?
  211. # [18:29] <TabAtkins_> vhardy: I don't feel strongly about the issue, but Alex did, so I think we should defer until he attends.
  212. # [18:29] * Joins: alexmog1 (alexmog@71.237.107.156)
  213. # [18:30] <TabAtkins_> Topic: Printing Backgrounds
  214. # [18:30] <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
  215. # [18:30] <smfr> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Aug/0436.html
  216. # [18:30] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Currently, most browsers when they print, suppress backgrounds and tweak colors to preserve contrast
  217. # [18:30] <fantasai> TabAtkins: IE9 also suppresses box-shadows
  218. # [18:31] * alexmog is online, can call in if you want to talk about regions
  219. # [18:31] <fantasai> TabAtkins: This is to save ink for the majority of pages that weren't designed to print.
  220. # [18:31] <fantasai> TabAtkins: So we want authors to be able to hint that they have thought about printing and trying to not waste ink
  221. # [18:31] <fantasai> TabAtkins: There are several proposals on the mailing list.
  222. # [18:32] <fantasai> TabAtkins: My preference is introducing a new property that says "please by default print backgrounds", although user can choose to always or never print them
  223. # [18:32] * dbaron wonders if we're going to have to have this discussion all over again when howcome is on the call
  224. # [18:32] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Other option some people like is printing backgrounds if "print" style sheet exists
  225. # [18:32] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I don't like that one, I think it's hacky. dbaron and smfr and I don't like it
  226. # [18:32] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Would prefer to go with property route
  227. # [18:32] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Would like some agreement on how this should go
  228. # [18:32] <tantek> I'm starting to believe Håkon's point - all the ink-wasters (who specifically code up ads, blocks of colors etc) will simply use this hint as well and lie about "having thought about printing and trying not to waste ink" - or from their perspective, it's not a waste, it's perfectly good advertising :)
  229. # [18:32] * sylvaing agrees with dbaron; howcome needs to be here to conclude
  230. # [18:33] <Zakim> -bradk
  231. # [18:33] * fantasai liked the 'waste-ink: yes | auto' option :)
  232. # [18:33] <tantek> lol
  233. # [18:33] * Ms2ger too
  234. # [18:33] <Zakim> +bradk
  235. # [18:33] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Unfortunately Håkon is not on the call
  236. # [18:34] <florian> Hakon and I agree with the way fantasai phrased it in answer to Tab's list of 4 options
  237. # [18:34] <Zakim> + +1.425.246.aaee
  238. # [18:34] * Bert can see the check box in the print dialog already; "Do you want to waste ink? yes/no" :-)
  239. # [18:34] <alexmog> zakim, aaee is me
  240. # [18:34] <Zakim> +alexmog; got it
  241. # [18:34] <smfr> [this checkbox Sponsored by HP]
  242. # [18:34] <Zakim> -bradk
  243. # [18:34] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Wrt Tantek's point, images are already fully printed.
  244. # [18:35] <fantasai> TabAtkins: People who want to do advertisements will already be able to waste ink.
  245. # [18:35] <Zakim> +bradk
  246. # [18:35] <dbaron> tantek, as Tab just said, authors who want to force whatever-they-want to be printed can just use foreground images
  247. # [18:35] <fantasai> TabAtkins: This enables a more general design capability
  248. # [18:36] <fantasai> fantasai: I've also seen sites that hack borders with z-index to get backgrounds where they want it. I think we shouldn't be encouraging that.
  249. # [18:36] <fantasai> plinss: I think it's a valuable property. As we get more and more features, UAs will be inclined to turn them off by default, which degrades the experience on other media.
  250. # [18:37] <fantasai> plinss: The other point that came up on the list, is that other contrast-preserving transforms might be useful for other output media, e.g. saving battery life on screens
  251. # [18:37] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Yes, I think it's good to name the property so that it works for other use cases. But don't think we should get into exact color management
  252. # [18:38] <fantasai> smfr: I'm not sure about that. This about printing decorations.
  253. # [18:38] <fantasai> smfr: There's a use case for controlling color presentation on AMOLED screens and such, but ...
  254. # [18:38] <fantasai> TabAtkins: The thing is the semantics are essentially identical between AMOLED and printer suppressing color
  255. # [18:38] <fantasai> TabAtkins: We don't need to .
  256. # [18:39] <fantasai> TabAtkins: It specifically suppresses things that are expensive to do.
  257. # [18:39] <fantasai> smfr^: It's not about color, it's about box-decoration
  258. # [18:39] <fantasai> TabAtkins: It's not just about backgrounds, because it tweaks colors.
  259. # [18:39] <fantasai> TabAtkins: If it's just a matter of naming, we can discuss that after agreeing on an approach
  260. # [18:40] <fantasai> sylvaing: People can use the feature for other things, but we don't have to design for them.
  261. # [18:40] <fantasai> TabAtkins: ...
  262. # [18:40] <fantasai> sylvaing: But the more generic the name, the more you'll have requests for flags and other options etc.
  263. # [18:41] <fantasai> smfr: I can see that if we implement this generically, we'll get requests from accessibility wrt contrast
  264. # [18:41] <fantasai> TabAtkins: This seems not accessibility-related. It's about things that are expensive in one medium that wasn't considered by the author.
  265. # [18:42] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Would occur whenever the UA feels like it.
  266. # [18:42] <fantasai> bradk: Is this something that's testable?
  267. # [18:42] <fantasai> plinss: It's testable if you say what the UA does in response to ...
  268. # [18:42] <fantasai> plinss: If the UA does this, the result should look like that.
  269. # [18:43] <florian> This property in itself is testable, but saying the UA may apply it whenever it feels like it means the rest of CSS becomes harder to test. Something might be off because of a bug, or because this property was applied.
  270. # [18:43] <fantasai> plinss: There are various cases in our tests where you need to have X user style sheet, or set your prefs to not have a min font size or whatever
  271. # [18:43] <fantasai> Bert: I don't like this.
  272. # [18:44] <fantasai> Bert: You set a background, and then you have to say "no really I mean it"
  273. # [18:44] <fantasai> Bert: This is the UI side option
  274. # [18:44] <fantasai> TabAtkins: It's still useful for authors to say "I thought about this case and the costs and designed accordingly"
  275. # [18:45] <fantasai> ?: Already have that info if there's a print stylesheet
  276. # [18:45] <fantasai> Arron: Yeah, that seems good enough to me
  277. # [18:46] <fantasai> TabAtkins: It's for the author saying [...[
  278. # [18:46] <fantasai> Arron: That's what the print style sheet is for.
  279. # [18:46] * sylvaing would love a setting to keep backgrounds when I print to PDF but really not sure I want/need that in CSS
  280. # [18:47] <fantasai> Arron: Maybe we should switch to printing backgrounds by default.
  281. # [18:47] <fantasai> dbaron: That changes the meaning of media queries, which is supposed to be just about matching.
  282. # [18:47] * sylvaing is also concerned at testing this and achieving interop
  283. # [18:48] <fantasai> dbaron: It's going to be confusing to teach authors about media queries.
  284. # [18:48] <fantasai> [...]
  285. # [18:48] <fantasai> dbaron: If some of them are magic in addition to matching.
  286. # [18:49] <fantasai> Florian: What is a print stylesheet for other than expressing the authors thoughts about print.
  287. # [18:49] <fantasai> dbaron: What if the author is using a site-wide stylesheet that has a print block?
  288. # [18:49] <nimbu> yes
  289. # [18:49] <fantasai> ?: What if there's a site-wide stylesheet that has print-backgrounds set?
  290. # [18:49] <Zakim> +kimberlyblessing
  291. # [18:49] <fantasai> Florian thinks it's silly to have a property that says "print backgrounds, no I really mean it"
  292. # [18:50] <fantasai> Florian: The property that's supposed to add backgrounds is the 'background' property.
  293. # [18:50] <fantasai> TabAtkins: We're already past the point where that's what happens.
  294. # [18:50] * sylvaing if you do want to save ink, box-shadow and text-shadow are probably things you want to turn off too
  295. # [18:51] <fantasai> plinss: You're saying that if it's in a print stylesheet it should be applied. But there are print-applicable styles in an all stylesheet.
  296. # [18:51] <fantasai> florian: The presense of a print style sheet is enough to say whether we should print or not.
  297. # [18:52] <fantasai> TabAtkins gives an example of sites built on top of a template with print block.
  298. # [18:52] <fantasai> Florian: There will always be bugs. You can work around that in the UA prefs
  299. # [18:52] <fantasai> TabAtkins: People don't tweak that very often.
  300. # [18:52] <fantasai> TabAtkins: UA should do the right thing by default.
  301. # [18:53] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Don't want random bunch of pages to unintentionally print backgrounds
  302. # [18:53] <nimbu> Zakim, unmute me
  303. # [18:53] <Zakim> nimbu should no longer be muted
  304. # [18:53] <fantasai> TabAtkins: And I'm sure the HTML5 boilerplate is not the only one that does something like this
  305. # [18:54] <fantasai> Florian: What I don't like is setting the precedent of UAs ignoring the spec and then having a special property to say "follow the spec"
  306. # [18:54] <fantasai> TabAtkins: That ship has sailed
  307. # [18:55] <fantasai> [rehashing of existing arguments
  308. # [18:55] <tantek> lol
  309. # [18:55] <fantasai> florian: I agree with the behaviors, just discussing the mechanism for triggering the behavior
  310. # [18:55] * tantek advocates rehashing (ahem, capturing) existing arguments on a wiki
  311. # [18:55] <tantek> is there a wiki page tracking this proposal TabAtkins? including arguments for/against?
  312. # [18:55] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Nobody looks at the UI options
  313. # [18:56] <fantasai> sylvaing: A lot of times people print from the browser to e.g. PDF, not to paper
  314. # [18:56] <fantasai> sylvaing: In that case it should print colors
  315. # [18:56] <fantasai> sylvaing: Don't see what this has to do with colors
  316. # [18:56] <stearns> tantek: I think there's just the thread reboot summary
  317. # [18:57] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Then the UA knows it's printing to PDF and can use colors
  318. # [18:57] <tantek> sterns - email threads got lost
  319. # [18:57] <fantasai> sylvaing: Not always. It's often expressed as printer driver.
  320. # [18:57] <tantek> all I'm saying is, whoever wants to actually make progress on this proposal (ahem, TabAtkins :) ) should write-up the existing arguments on a wiki in order to avoid wasting time repeating them
  321. # [18:57] <fantasai> sylvaing: I don't think this can be easily captured in CSS, it's based on what the user wants. ...
  322. # [18:58] <stearns> or resolve not to do anything
  323. # [18:58] <fantasai> fantasai: Are we getting anywhere here? If not, then let's follow Tantek's suggestion and put it on a wiki.
  324. # [18:58] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Nobody's bringing up anything new.
  325. # [18:58] <tantek> (both / all sides of the argument)
  326. # [18:58] <fantasai> fantasai: Then we're not going to resolve on this today.
  327. # [18:58] <tantek> can't determine if anyone is bringing up anything new or not until existing arguments are documented
  328. # [18:59] <tantek> and then you can point people at URLs of their repeated arguments instead :)
  329. # [18:59] <fantasai> sylvaing: I'm not convinced that this is something that belongs to CSS. I think it's a UA thing.
  330. # [18:59] <fantasai> sylvaing: Given where we are today, what browser do, what does having this CSS property solve? What is its value? I'm not sure I really get it.
  331. # [18:59] <fantasai> sylvaing: If it's useful, it seems very narrow and specialized to me.
  332. # [19:00] <fantasai> Florian: The argument about site-wide stylesheet holds for the property as well.
  333. # [19:00] <fantasai> TabAtkins: You're saying the feature can be polluted. But it's not right now. Whereas @media print is.
  334. # [19:00] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/ideas/print-backgrounds
  335. # [19:00] <fantasai> plinss: I want to settle not how to do this, but do we want to do this.
  336. # [19:01] <fantasai> sylvaing: I'm not completely clear if its necessary for CSS to solve this as opposed to UAs getting smarter about it
  337. # [19:01] * alexmog thinks browsers were wrong to not print backgrounds to begin with.
  338. # [19:01] <fantasai> plinss: I would like UAs to be smarter. I don't think they have enough info to do better than they're using now.
  339. # [19:01] <fantasai> plinss: UAs certainly can have better UI. Have a print preview dialog before printing that presents the document 2-3 different ways
  340. # [19:02] <fantasai> plinss: But right now the UA doesn't have the information it needs to make a good default choice.
  341. # [19:02] <fantasai> plinss: This gives the extra piece of information needed to do that.
  342. # [19:02] * Quits: szilles (chatzilla@69.57.63.5) (Ping timeout)
  343. # [19:02] * fantasai disagrees, did you see those sites from the 90s? :)
  344. # [19:03] <fantasai> plinss: I'm not hearing anyone saying absolutely no, we don't want this.
  345. # [19:03] <fantasai> Bert: Well, I don't want it.
  346. # [19:03] <fantasai> plinss: I don't want to hear I don't like it, vs. I have a really good technical reason why it doesn't belong in CSS.
  347. # [19:03] <fantasai> Bert: I think I gave three.
  348. # [19:03] <fantasai> Bert: I don't think the author can decide.
  349. # [19:03] <fantasai> Bert: How many levels of importance to we want?
  350. # [19:03] <fantasai> plinss: Not a matter of importance, a matter of intent
  351. # [19:04] <fantasai> Bert: We limit CSS to altering things in the viewport, not reaching into UI
  352. # [19:04] <fantasai> plinss: Nothing about this property affects UI. Only default behavior when rendering the document.
  353. # [19:04] <fantasai> Bert: Isn't that the same thing?
  354. # [19:04] <fantasai> plinss: No.
  355. # [19:04] <fantasai> Bert: What does it does if not influence print dialog?
  356. # [19:04] <fantasai> plinss: Doesn't influence dialog, influences behavior.
  357. # [19:05] * Quits: johnjansen (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
  358. # [19:05] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  359. # [19:05] * alexmog If UAs can detect crappy design and fix it, should they?
  360. # [19:05] <fantasai> TabAtkins: UA could choose to present this info in the dialog, but not required to do anything like that
  361. # [19:05] <fantasai> Bert: Keep hearing it's a UI problem that the user can't decide whether to print backgrounds or not.
  362. # [19:06] <fantasai> Bert: It's not just that I don't like it. I think it's bad design.
  363. # [19:06] <Zakim> -dbaron
  364. # [19:06] * alexmog That decision was made once for backgrounds, it's unique, now we need a unique way to undo that
  365. # [19:06] * dbaron has another meeting
  366. # [19:06] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.240) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  367. # [19:06] <fantasai> plinss: Don't think your first two arguments are valid, but for the third...
  368. # [19:06] <fantasai> plinss: I think this gives a way for the author to express his intent.
  369. # [19:06] <Zakim> -arno
  370. # [19:06] <fantasai> plinss: Would like a path forward other than a wiki page
  371. # [19:07] <fantasai> plinss: Since that just puts it off again
  372. # [19:07] <fantasai> fantasai: I think having a wiki page would be valuable.
  373. # [19:08] <fantasai> fantasai: Give a clear overview of the options, their pros and cons, etc. Give everyone a clear overview.
  374. # [19:08] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/ideas/print-backgrounds
  375. # [19:08] <fantasai> Meeting closed.
  376. # [19:08] <Zakim> -hober
  377. # [19:08] <Zakim> -kimberlyblessing
  378. # [19:08] <Zakim> -arronei_
  379. # [19:08] <Zakim> -Oliver_Goldman
  380. # [19:08] <Zakim> -sylvaing
  381. # [19:08] * Quits: kimberlyblessing (Kimberly@68.81.71.240) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 6.0/20110811165603])
  382. # [19:08] <Zakim> -florian
  383. # [19:08] <Zakim> -smfr
  384. # [19:08] <Zakim> -TabAtkins_
  385. # [19:08] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  386. # [19:08] * Parts: florian (florianr@109.215.154.9)
  387. # [19:08] <Zakim> -??P31
  388. # [19:08] <Zakim> -stearns
  389. # [19:08] <Zakim> -alexmog
  390. # [19:08] * Quits: bradk (bradk@99.7.175.117) (Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/ )
  391. # [19:08] <Zakim> -plinss
  392. # [19:08] <Zakim> -Bert
  393. # [19:08] <Zakim> -bradk
  394. # [19:08] * Parts: alexmog1 (alexmog@71.237.107.156)
  395. # [19:08] * Parts: alexmog (alexmog@71.237.107.156)
  396. # [19:08] <Zakim> -nimbu
  397. # [19:09] <Zakim> -??P1
  398. # [19:09] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  399. # [19:09] <Zakim> Attendees were plinss, florian, stearns, +1.206.552.aaaa, nimbu, hober, arronei_, +1.206.324.aabb, Oliver_Goldman, +1.281.305.aacc, TabAtkins_, bradk, sylvaing, SteveZ,
  400. # [19:09] <Zakim> ... +1.415.832.aadd, arno, smfr, Bert, johnjansen, dbaron, +1.425.246.aaee, alexmog, kimberlyblessing
  401. # [19:09] * Quits: TabAtkins_ (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
  402. # [19:09] * Quits: arno (arno@192.150.10.200) (Ping timeout)
  403. # [19:10] * Quits: vhardy (vhardy@192.150.10.200) (Ping timeout)
  404. # [19:13] * Quits: oyvind (oyvinds@213.236.208.22) (Quit: oyvind)
  405. # [19:14] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.240)
  406. # [19:16] * Parts: smfr (smfr@17.203.14.12)
  407. # [19:16] * Joins: arno (arno@192.150.10.200)
  408. # [19:43] * Joins: szilles (chatzilla@69.57.63.5)
  409. # [19:46] * Quits: stearns (anonymous@50.132.9.217) (Quit: stearns)
  410. # [19:53] * Quits: szilles (chatzilla@69.57.63.5) (Ping timeout)
  411. # [20:20] * Joins: stearns (anonymous@192.150.22.5)
  412. # [20:46] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@98.232.9.174) (Quit: sylvaing)
  413. # [21:00] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  414. # [21:00] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.169)
  415. # [21:01] <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, please excuse us
  416. # [21:01] <RRSAgent> I see no action items
  417. # [21:01] * Parts: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.169)
  418. # [21:02] * Joins: szilles (chatzilla@69.57.63.5)
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  420. # [21:13] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.240) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
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  423. # [22:21] * Quits: Ms2ger (Ms2ger@91.181.45.92) (Quit: nn)
  424. # [22:21] * Quits: szilles (chatzilla@69.57.63.5) (Ping timeout)
  425. # [22:59] * Quits: miketaylr (miketaylr@206.217.92.186) (Ping timeout)
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  428. # [23:32] * Quits: Martijnc (Martijnc@84.192.44.100) (Quit: Martijnc)
  429. # [23:35] * Quits: szilles (chatzilla@69.57.63.5) (Ping timeout)
  430. # [23:38] <fantasai> Who is Oliver Goldman?
  431. # Session Close: Thu Aug 18 00:00:00 2011

The end :)