/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2011-09-01 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Sep 01 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  5. # [00:07] <stearns> fantasai: looking at current id usage, I'm assuming not-testable would include headings and dfn elements as well. Do you agree?
  6. # [00:07] <fantasai> The anchors on headings represent the entire section
  7. # [00:08] <fantasai> not the heading only
  8. # [00:08] <fantasai> So they should usually be considered testable
  9. # [00:08] <fantasai> unless it's an informative section
  10. # [00:08] <fantasai> stearns: as for <dfn> elements, it depends. Quite a few <dfn>s are testable
  11. # [00:09] <fantasai> stearns: The value of each property is in a <dfn>
  12. # [00:09] <fantasai> stearns: And that anchor represents the contents of the <dt> and the <dd> it's associated with
  13. # [00:10] <fantasai> stearns: Those are pretty much always testable, no?
  14. # [00:10] <stearns> So if a heading represents a testable section, and that section contains dfn elements with ids as well, how would you like to count up test coverage?
  15. # [00:12] <fantasai> assign each test to its anchor
  16. # [00:12] <fantasai> ?
  17. # [00:12] <fantasai> as determined by the test writer?
  18. # [00:13] <stearns> Say I have a section with a heading anchor that lists some property values, each with its own anchor
  19. # [00:13] <stearns> tests are written for each value, but outside of that there's nothing to test for the heading anchor
  20. # [00:14] <fantasai> highly unlikely
  21. # [00:14] <fantasai> if nothing else, you need to also test whether inheritance happens correctly
  22. # [00:14] <fantasai> and whether the initial value is correct
  23. # [00:14] <fantasai> and whether the property applies to all the things it's supposed to apply to
  24. # [00:14] <stearns> ok, that sounds good
  25. # [00:15] <fantasai> And pretty much every property also has some other things to test
  26. # [00:15] <fantasai> in the description
  27. # [00:15] <fantasai> An example of a section that has nothing to test is http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-text/#edge-effects
  28. # [00:15] <fantasai> There's just a paragraph introducing the subsections
  29. # [00:15] <fantasai> which contain stuff to test
  30. # [00:16] <fantasai> The property definition table will contain the applies to, initial, inhertied, computed value lines
  31. # [00:16] <fantasai> that has an anchor, which can also be used
  32. # [00:16] <fantasai> for finer granularity
  33. # [00:16] <stearns> there's also anchors for sections 1 and 1.1 that probably don't have tests
  34. # [00:17] <fantasai> right
  35. # [00:17] <fantasai> 1.3 would have tests, though
  36. # [00:17] <fantasai> even though it's just a bunch of <dfn>s :)
  37. # [00:17] <stearns> and 1.2 (inherit keyword)
  38. # [00:17] <fantasai> A test would probably be for something that uses one of the definitions
  39. # [00:17] <fantasai> and a secondary or tertiary link would go to 1.3
  40. # [00:18] <fantasai> you could have a test, for example, that checks that symbols are not treated as letters
  41. # [00:18] <fantasai> for the purpose of <whatever>
  42. # [00:18] <stearns> so for edge effects, sections 1 and 1.1 there would be a new "non-normative" class attribute?
  43. # [00:18] <stearns> or non-testable?
  44. # [00:18] <fantasai> well.. it's a littel confusing
  45. # [00:19] <fantasai> since Edge Effects doesn't have any tests for its own text
  46. # [00:19] <fantasai> but it contains subsections that would
  47. # [00:19] <fantasai> you'd have to be clear that the subsections aren't affected
  48. # [00:20] <stearns> perhaps it should point to the id -> class="non-testable-id"
  49. # [00:20] <fantasai> yeah maybe
  50. # [00:20] <fantasai> One of the key things I learned when I did the assertions list for css3-page
  51. # [00:20] <fantasai> was that the spec does not contain test assertions :)
  52. # [00:21] <fantasai> it only contains prose that has to be interpreted into test assertions
  53. # [00:21] <fantasai> and often those test assertions are combinations of multiple statements in the spec
  54. # [00:21] <stearns> so a test might point to multiple ids in the spec
  55. # [00:21] <fantasai> yes
  56. # [00:22] <fantasai> very frequently, in fact
  57. # [00:22] <fantasai> and the more granular your IDs, the more this will happen
  58. # [00:22] <stearns> yeah, I was assuming I'd be doing that
  59. # [00:24] <fantasai> evaluating test coverage is also more qualitative than quantitative
  60. # [00:24] <fantasai> yes, you want at least one test per testable statement
  61. # [00:24] <fantasai> but very often you need much more than one test :)
  62. # [00:24] <fantasai> and how much is determined by what that statement is
  63. # [00:24] <fantasai> and how it interacts with other statements
  64. # [00:24] <stearns> plinss: would the tool work you're considering work with this "assume ids are testable with exceptions" scheme?
  65. # [00:25] <fantasai> stearns: maybe we could have a <div> that, like class="example" and class="note", means its contents aren't testable
  66. # [00:25] <fantasai> stearns: then we could wrap e.g. Edge Effects and its paragraph intro in the <div>
  67. # [00:26] <fantasai> it'd be clear then that it only applies to that paragraph, and not the subsections after it
  68. # [00:26] <fantasai> <div class="informative">
  69. # [00:26] <stearns> not sure I agree that examples aren't testable. In all other specs I've worked on the examples are *always* tests (to make sure they work)
  70. # [00:27] <plinss> stearns: the tool could handle pretty much anything, the simpler the better for me, obviously
  71. # [00:27] <fantasai> that's fair, but those tests are unlikely to be automatable...
  72. # [00:28] <plinss> so far both shepherd and the harness only look at section headings (and in fact we restrict test to spec links to section headings)
  73. # [00:31] <stearns> So excluding example, note and perhaps "informative" anchors works as long as there is no intervening element with some other class attribute
  74. # [00:31] <fantasai> You'd just cut out the entire contents of the .example, .note, and .informative
  75. # [00:31] <stearns> (and if that's the case, we could move or introduce the "informative" div closer to the non-testable anchor)
  76. # [00:31] <fantasai> And process the spec as if they're not there
  77. # [00:32] <fantasai> We don't have any markup that inserts a normative section in the middle of a non-normative one
  78. # [00:33] <stearns> ok, let me pass this by Vincent, then I'll write up a modified proposal to the testsuite list
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  81. # [00:37] <fantasai> stearns: we could consider skipping <dfn>s that aren't inside a <dt>, and using paragraph anchors instead
  82. # [00:37] <fantasai> stearns: I'm not sure about the best way to deal with that yet...
  83. # [00:41] <stearns> yeah, the propdef tables always have a dfn, and that may not be the best place to anchor a test
  84. # [00:41] <fantasai> yeah, we'd probably want to anchor to the propdef table itself
  85. # [00:42] <fantasai> So, good candidates for test anchors are
  86. # [00:42] <fantasai> a) headings
  87. # [00:42] <fantasai> a) propdef tables
  88. # [00:42] <fantasai> c) other tables, if they have an ID
  89. # [00:42] <fantasai> d) <dfn> of a <dt>, representing the <dt><dd> pair
  90. # [00:43] <fantasai> e) Anchors to <p>, <li>
  91. # [00:43] <fantasai> f) <span> if someone wants sentence-level anchors :)
  92. # [00:43] <fantasai> or phrase-level
  93. # [00:43] <fantasai> (depends on the sentence)
  94. # [00:44] * fantasai wonders if there's an HTML5 element that's better for that
  95. # [00:45] <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/text-level-semantics.html#the-mark-element
  96. # [00:45] <fantasai> ah, I'm disappointed it wasn't called <m>!
  97. # [00:46] * fantasai supposes that's been bikeshedded to death though.
  98. # [01:02] * arronei fantasai: isn't there a <bs> element for bikeshedding? :)
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  100. # [02:08] <hober> IIRC it was called <m> for a while
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  102. # [02:21] <fantasai> hober: yeah, that's what I remembered
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  107. # [03:55] <jdaggett> fantasai: more silly www-archive questions...
  108. # [03:55] <jdaggett> fantasai: does one need to subscribe to post to that list?
  109. # [03:55] <jdaggett> or just send a mail to the list address?
  110. # [03:56] <jdaggett> fantasai: eric is trying to send his table for a unicode orientation property
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The end :)