/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2011-10-12 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Oct 12 00:00:00 2011
# Session Ident: #css
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# [17:28] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/10/12-css-irc
# [17:28] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
# [17:28] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 38 minutes
# [17:28] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [17:28] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
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# [18:02] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
# [18:02] <Zakim> +??P18
# [18:02] * Joins: alexmog (alexmog@24.16.133.35)
# [18:02] <glazou> Zakim, ??P18 is me
# [18:02] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
# [18:02] <Zakim> +??P19
# [18:03] <Zakim> -glazou
# [18:03] <Zakim> +glazou
# [18:03] <glazou> Zakim, having a hickup?
# [18:03] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, glazou.
# [18:03] <danielweck> Zakim, ??P19 is me
# [18:03] <Zakim> +danielweck; got it
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# [18:04] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
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# [18:04] <johnjansen> zakim, microsoft has johnjansen
# [18:04] <Zakim> +johnjansen; got it
# [18:04] <Zakim> +??P29
# [18:05] <Zakim> + +1.949.477.aaaa
# [18:05] <Zakim> + +1.206.324.aabb
# [18:05] <Zakim> + +1.619.846.aacc
# [18:05] <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
# [18:05] <duga> zakim, ??P29 is me
# [18:05] <Zakim> +duga; got it
# [18:05] <hober> Zakim, aacc is me
# [18:05] <Zakim> +hober; got it
# [18:05] * Joins: cesar (acebal@85.152.178.139)
# [18:05] <Zakim> +ChrisL
# [18:05] <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P29 (29%)
# [18:05] <Zakim> +Molly_Holzschlag
# [18:06] <sylvaing> Zakim, aabb is sylvaing
# [18:06] <Zakim> +sylvaing; got it
# [18:06] <Zakim> + +975901aadd
# [18:06] * ChrisL considers zakim, drop ??P29
# [18:06] <glazou> Zakim, aaaa is duga
# [18:06] <Zakim> +duga; got it
# [18:06] <Zakim> + +1.215.286.aaee
# [18:06] <arronei> zakim, microsoft has me
# [18:06] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
# [18:06] <Zakim> +arronei; got it
# [18:06] * Joins: kimberlyblessing (Kimberly@68.81.71.240)
# [18:06] <Zakim> +Bert
# [18:06] <glazou> Zakim, mute duga
# [18:06] <Zakim> duga should now be muted
# [18:06] <cesar> zakim, aadd is me
# [18:07] <Zakim> +cesar; got it
# [18:07] <glazou> Zakim, unmute duga
# [18:07] <Zakim> duga should no longer be muted
# [18:07] <Zakim> + +1.206.552.aaff
# [18:07] <glazou> Zakim, mute aabb
# [18:07] <Zakim> sorry, glazou, I do not know which phone connection belongs to aabb
# [18:07] <duga> thanks glazou
# [18:07] <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
# [18:07] <nimbupani> zakim, aaff is me
# [18:07] <Zakim> +nimbupani; got it
# [18:07] <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: cesar (35%)
# [18:07] <Zakim> + +1.206.550.aagg
# [18:08] <stearns> zakim, aagg is me
# [18:08] <Zakim> +stearns; got it
# [18:08] * Joins: florianr (florianr@114.181.159.79)
# [18:08] <Zakim> + +47.23.69.aahh
# [18:08] * Joins: howcome (howcome@213.236.208.22)
# [18:09] <glazou> Zakim, aahh is howcome
# [18:09] <Zakim> +howcome; got it
# [18:09] <glazou> Zakim, who is here?
# [18:09] <Zakim> On the phone I see glazou, danielweck, [Microsoft], duga, duga.a, sylvaing, hober, ChrisL, Molly_Holzschlag, cesar, +1.215.286.aaee, [Microsoft.a], Bert, nimbupani, stearns,
# [18:09] <Zakim> ... howcome
# [18:09] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has arronei
# [18:09] <kimberlyblessing> Zakim, aaee is me
# [18:09] <Zakim> On IRC I see howcome, florianr, kimberlyblessing, cesar, oyvind, johnjansen, duga, alexmog, ChrisL, danielweck, arno, sylvaing, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, kojiishi, Ms2ger, myakura,
# [18:09] <Zakim> ... mollydotcom, nimbupani, Florian, stearns, arronei, Hixie, plinss, lhnz, Bert, davve, gsnedders, hober, TabAtkins, krijnh, CSSWG_LogBot, ed, fantasai, pjrm, trackbot, shepazu
# [18:09] <ChrisL> zakim, where is 215?
# [18:09] * Joins: tabatkins_ (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [18:09] <Zakim> +??P62
# [18:10] <Zakim> +kimberlyblessing; got it
# [18:10] <Zakim> + +1.425.246.aaii
# [18:10] * Joins: bradk (bradk@99.7.175.117)
# [18:10] <Zakim> North American dialing code 1.215 is Pennsylvania
# [18:10] <kimberlyblessing> ChrisL 215 is Philadelphia
# [18:10] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
# [18:10] <florianr> Zakim, I am ??P62
# [18:10] <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
# [18:10] <Zakim> +florianr; got it
# [18:10] * ChrisL smart but slow,apparently
# [18:10] <alexmog> zakim, aaii is me
# [18:10] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@206.15.76.122)
# [18:10] <Zakim> +alexmog; got it
# [18:10] * dbaron Zakim, who is on the phone?
# [18:10] <Zakim> +SteveZ
# [18:10] * Zakim sees on the phone: glazou, danielweck, [Microsoft], duga, duga.a, sylvaing, hober, ChrisL, Molly_Holzschlag, cesar, kimberlyblessing, [Microsoft.a], Bert, nimbupani, stearns,
# [18:10] * Zakim ... howcome, florianr, alexmog, [IPcaller], [Mozilla], SteveZ
# [18:10] * Zakim [Microsoft] has arronei
# [18:10] <nimbupani> I can be.
# [18:10] <Zakim> + +1.650.275.aajj
# [18:10] * dbaron Zakim, [Mozilla] is dbaron
# [18:10] * Zakim +dbaron; got it
# [18:11] <bradk> Zakim, aajj is me
# [18:11] <nimbupani> glazou: ^^
# [18:11] <Zakim> +bradk; got it
# [18:11] <Zakim> -bradk
# [18:11] <glazou> ScribeNick nimbupani
# [18:11] <dbaron> ScribeNick: nimbupani
# [18:11] <nimbupani> bradk: wants to discuss epub discussion at TPAC
# [18:11] * Joins: dsinger_ (dsinger@67.218.106.202)
# [18:11] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: wants to talk about … in 2.1
# [18:12] <nimbupani> fantasai: discuss values and units
# [18:12] <Zakim> + +1.281.305.aakk
# [18:12] <Zakim> + +1.415.832.aall
# [18:12] <tabatkins_> Zakim, aakk is me
# [18:12] <Zakim> +tabatkins_; got it
# [18:12] <arno> Zakim, aakk is me
# [18:12] <nimbupani> howcome: on Opera's implementation of GCPM
# [18:12] <Zakim> sorry, arno, I do not recognize a party named 'aakk'
# [18:12] <Zakim> +bradk
# [18:12] <nimbupani> glazou: aboutf2f in paris
# [18:12] <arno> zakim, aall is me
# [18:12] <nimbupani> glazou: there are 26 or 27 people registered which is a lot
# [18:12] <Zakim> +arno; got it
# [18:12] <nimbupani> glazou: 1st choice has max attendance of 24 so its not feasible
# [18:13] * Joins: smfr (smfr@17.212.152.232)
# [18:13] <nimbupani> glazou: w3c office in paris suggests we can have 2 meeting rooms. conf from 6th - 8th of Feb. It is in downtown, 14 mins from subway station
# [18:13] * ChrisL there are good restaurants nearby in Rue de la Buttes aux Cailles
# [18:13] <Zakim> + +1.408.636.aamm
# [18:13] <dbaron> I added the map link to http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/paris-2012 (and also the dates).
# [18:13] <nimbupani> glazou: i will send list of hotels asap
# [18:14] <smfr> Zakim, aamm is m
# [18:14] <Zakim> +m; got it
# [18:14] <smfr> Zakim, aamm is me
# [18:14] <Zakim> sorry, smfr, I do not recognize a party named 'aamm'
# [18:14] <nimbupani> Topic: TPAC
# [18:14] * dbaron Zakim, m is smfr
# [18:14] * Zakim +smfr; got it
# [18:14] <glazou> http://www.w3.org/mid/7534F85A589E654EB1E44E5CFDC19E3D0C29DDAE47@wob-email-01.agfamonotype.org
# [18:14] <nimbupani> glazou: 2 reqs joint meeting with webfonts wg
# [18:14] <nimbupani> ??: webfonts is not meeting at tpac but some members will be there.
# [18:15] <nimbupani> glazou: ChrisL will be part of joint meeting on behalf of webfonts WG
# [18:15] <nimbupani> ChrisL: i dont have a preferred time. 4 or 5people might be there.
# [18:15] * dsinger_ awesome cheese near the butte aux cailles, also, fromagerie de l'esperance
# [18:15] <nimbupani> ChrisL: the discussion topic is part of css3 fonts
# [18:15] <nimbupani> ChrisL: rather than be specific for WOFF rather than font face for all formats
# [18:15] <nimbupani> glazou: will john daggett attend TPAC?
# [18:16] <nimbupani> dbaron: i suspect he is, i am not sure.
# [18:16] <nimbupani> glazou: when is the best time to have meeting for japanese people in santa clara
# [18:16] <nimbupani> dbaron: 5pm in CA is 9am in Japan
# [18:17] <nimbupani> RESOLVED: Monday 5pm Web fonts joint meeting
# [18:17] <dbaron> or something, depending on sommer time
# [18:17] <Zakim> +??P13
# [18:17] <nimbupani> bradk: can only attend for one day. preference tuesday.
# [18:17] <nimbupani> RESOLVED: Tuesday meeting for e-pub
# [18:17] <tabatkins_> nimbupani: That's not Brad.
# [18:17] <nimbupani> oops
# [18:17] <nimbupani> who was it
# [18:17] <mollydotcom> Yes
# [18:17] <mollydotcom> Hang on
# [18:17] <mollydotcom> I built one out
# [18:18] <dbaron> http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/paris-2012
# [18:18] <duga> http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/tpac-2011
# [18:18] <dbaron> http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/tpac-2011
# [18:18] <nimbupani> glazou: add meetings to the agenda http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/tpac-2011
# [18:18] <tabatkins_> nimbupani: Suspect it was jdaggett
# [18:19] <stearns> I suspect it was brady duga
# [18:19] <nimbupani> mollydotcom: is there some activity on sunday?
# [18:19] <nimbupani> glazou: its a day of meeting for CSSWG
# [18:19] <duga> Yes, Brady not Brad
# [18:19] <nimbupani> ah
# [18:19] <nimbupani> s/bradk/brady
# [18:20] <nimbupani> glazou: bert do we have a room
# [18:20] <nimbupani> Bert: doubt it. i have not heard from orgn. Better to look for another place.
# [18:20] <nimbupani> glazou: who can host meeting on sunday
# [18:20] <nimbupani> fantasai: mozilla.
# [18:20] * Quits: smfr (smfr@17.212.152.232) (Client exited)
# [18:20] <nimbupani> mollydotcom: we could also ask stanford.
# [18:20] <nimbupani> ??: we can host in San jose @ Adobe
# [18:20] * Joins: smfr (smfr@17.212.152.232)
# [18:20] <dbaron> I think ?? was Arno
# [18:20] <nimbupani> glazou: san jose seems closest.
# [18:21] <arno> yep, that's me
# [18:21] <nimbupani> arno: will check it out and get an official answer this week.
# [18:21] <nimbupani> ChrisL: step out on monday 11-12
# [18:21] <sylvaing> I would also step out with ChrisL
# [18:21] <nimbupani> glazou: is there some overlap with AC meeting during days of CSS WG meeting.
# [18:21] <nimbupani> Florian: i am not but dont think so.
# [18:22] <nimbupani> glazou: if there is, he is not sure he is able to attend TPAC as he is sick.
# [18:22] <nimbupani> glazou: if I am the only one chairing I will have a problem
# [18:22] <nimbupani> Florian: there are AC meetings on tuesday
# [18:22] <nimbupani> Florian: there is AC exec session for AC chairs
# [18:22] <nimbupani> glazou: we will find a soln and I will discuss with ChrisL and Brady via email
# [18:22] <dbaron> https://www.w3.org/2011/11/TPAC/ac-agenda has AC starting at 2pm Tuesday
# [18:23] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: ^
# [18:23] <nimbupani> are u on call?
# [18:23] <tabatkins_> I"m here, one sec.
# [18:23] <ChrisL> attendees list for CSS WG at TPAC http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35125/TPAC2011/registrants#css
# [18:23] <nimbupani> TOPIC: Gradients
# [18:23] <tabatkins_> Apparently no one can hear me. >_<
# [18:24] <nimbupani> nope
# [18:24] <glazou> no we can't
# [18:24] <nimbupani> glazou: like to have an update.
# [18:25] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: suggest we do what elika suggested defer final decision until TPAC and make quick decision and go to last call.
# [18:25] <nimbupani> ChrisL: i think its a good plan
# [18:25] <nimbupani> glazou: requesting everyone interested in gradients reads it and is ready before the joint TPAC
# [18:25] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: will alert when I got something that is not a placeholder
# [18:26] <nimbupani> glazou: how long do u need at TPAC
# [18:26] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/ideas/radial-gradients
# [18:26] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: we need 20 to 30 mins
# [18:26] <nimbupani> Florian: for such a heated topic?
# [18:26] <smfr> 8 hours!
# [18:26] <nimbupani> ??: an hour
# [18:26] <nimbupani> glazou: TabAtkins can u add to TPAC wiki page
# [18:26] <arronei> s/??/arronei
# [18:26] * mollydotcom already added agenda item on gradients to CSS TPAC wiki page ;)
# [18:27] <nimbupani> TOPIC: Implied types and att annotation
# [18:27] <glazou> http://www.w3.org/mid/CAAWBYDDasgHLxCjTk0gC-Qy_kmrt+Q_DqcuaukEB58d7=Dd8Pg@mail.gmail.com
# [18:27] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: minor issues
# [18:27] <glazou> s/att annotation/attr() notation
# [18:27] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: there is an issue in spec for implied types. Wonder if we can have attr default to that type rather than string.
# [18:27] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: me and fantasai dont think its workable. you are breaking uses of attr in the wild
# [18:28] <Zakim> -danielweck
# [18:28] <nimbupani> howcome: by dropping issue you require type to be specified always?
# [18:28] <Zakim> +??P19
# [18:28] <danielweck> Zakim, ??P19 is me
# [18:28] <Zakim> +danielweck; got it
# [18:28] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: default to string
# [18:28] <fantasai> i/wild/if you change one of those properties to accept other types/
# [18:28] <nimbupani> howcome: issue comes up when you have width = 200 and you want width to be pixels
# [18:28] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: its not ideal.
# [18:29] <nimbupani> glazou: does it have more downsides than upsides i dont htink its the case.
# [18:29] <nimbupani> howcome: if its a number its unlikely that you want it to be a string
# [18:29] <nimbupani> fantasai: then u need to parse to make sure its a number
# [18:29] <nimbupani> fantasai: if you want width to be pixels then you need to specify as pixels otherwise it would be a string.
# [18:29] <nimbupani> fantasai: you need to specify the unit
# [18:30] <nimbupani> howcome: wondering if there is something else smart we can do and save people typing 3 chars
# [18:30] <nimbupani> glazou: howcome do you want ot take an action item?
# [18:30] <nimbupani> howcome: i dont think i will create a counter proposal
# [18:30] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: alt is to allow properties to define default attr vals for themselves but seems like a lot of overhead
# [18:30] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: auto inference is not possible.
# [18:31] <nimbupani> howcome: if it has to be a default is string hte best?
# [18:31] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: one requires no parsing and cannot fail
# [18:31] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: for legacy reasons it is already required to be a string
# [18:31] <nimbupani> glazou: accept this for time being and then if we find something smarter we use that
# [18:31] <nimbupani> RESOLVED: accept default type of attr() as string
# [18:31] <nimbupani> TOPIC: Question from sylvaing about new stuff in CSS OM
# [18:32] <glazou> http://www.w3.org/mid/3C4041FF83E1E04A986B6DC50F01782938A101@TK5EX14MBXC297.redmond.corp.microsoft.com
# [18:32] * Joins: dsinger__ (dsinger@17.244.73.116)
# [18:32] * glazou has to leave at :45 at the latest
# [18:32] <dbaron> we have a wiki page now, at least!
# [18:32] <nimbupani> sylvaing: everytime we add a new @ rule we need a new constant in css4 for a new rule type
# [18:32] <nimbupani> sylvaing: how do you define them without creating conflicts, need a branch for prefixed version.
# [18:33] <nimbupani> sylvaing: one for viewport rule for e.g. brittle mechanism so what do we do next?
# [18:33] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: we can continue same way with numeric constant and standardize on wiki page. Wiki is normative defn for num consts. do same for ranges for vendor prefix constants
# [18:33] * Quits: dsinger_ (dsinger@67.218.106.202) (Ping timeout)
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# [18:33] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: or switch over to string.
# [18:33] <nimbupani> dbaron: i dont think memory aspect of string is smthing to worry about.
# [18:34] <nimbupani> dbaron: good practice for api design is to use strings than constants.
# [18:34] <nimbupani> sylvaing: we should agree on a cut off point.
# [18:34] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: agreed.
# [18:34] * Joins: Martijnc (Martijnc@84.192.44.100)
# [18:34] <nimbupani> glazou: is this smthing to forward to annevk?
# [18:34] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@17.197.32.11)
# [18:34] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: ya
# [18:34] <dbaron> if we add a new string api, we could make all the things that don't get constants report UNKNOWN_RULE as the constant, or something like that.
# [18:34] <nimbupani> :s
# [18:35] <nimbupani> glazou: will it be a 20-30 min discussion at TPAC?
# [18:35] * mollydotcom handling agenda items to wiki
# [18:35] <nimbupani> sylvaing: we should tidy up and assign constants.
# [18:35] <nimbupani> dbaron: anne created a wiki page for the constants
# [18:35] <nimbupani> glazou: we will discuss what we do at TPAC
# [18:36] <dbaron> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/cssom-constants
# [18:36] <nimbupani> sylvaing: wondering for W3C reffing a wikipage anyone can edit is that scary
# [18:36] <nimbupani> glazou: are u sure about that?
# [18:36] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: only those with wiki accounts possibly the testers
# [18:36] <nimbupani> fantasai: we have ACLs for wiki page easy to restrict to wg
# [18:36] <nimbupani> ChrisL: we have complete changelog so malicious changes can be rolled back
# [18:37] <nimbupani> mollydotcom: assuming wiki is not that … in a secure way
# [18:37] <nimbupani> fantasai: right now entire wiki is public
# [18:37] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: restrict writing to WG members
# [18:37] <nimbupani> glazou: readable by public and writable only by working group members
# [18:37] <nimbupani> fantasai: which page.
# [18:37] <nimbupani> glazou: the url dbaron pasted
# [18:38] <nimbupani> glazou: need to add viewport rule to that list
# [18:38] <mollydotcom> that's what I've been doing
# [18:38] <nimbupani> glazou: sylvaing edit wikipage for TPAC and add discussion
# [18:38] <mollydotcom> Sylvain: no need, just got it there
# [18:38] <mollydotcom> well, the discussion - I'm adding the URL
# [18:38] <glazou> http://www.w3.org/mid/CAHSVx=8sOOh=5Wr2cv4eUhT8AzWTdnPybpFF-WR5ujEqEESwiA@mail.gmail.com
# [18:38] <nimbupani> TOPIC: req from paul_irish on css3 conditional
# [18:38] <nimbupani> glazou: dbaron i think u commented on that.
# [18:38] <nimbupani> glazou: adding an api matching
# [18:39] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: i dont think much needs to be discussed. dbaron seemed agreeable to adding that
# [18:39] <nimbupani> glazou: everyone agrees on that?
# [18:39] <dbaron> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Oct/0323.html
# [18:39] <fantasai> cssom-constants is already locked down as edit only for css-wg members and a group made for other trusted members
# [18:39] <nimbupani> whats the resolution?
# [18:39] <nimbupani> TOPIC: LC for css3-speech
# [18:39] <danielweck> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css3-speech
# [18:40] <nimbupani> RESOLUTION: add paul irish's suggested api to the spec
# [18:40] <nimbupani> TOPIC: LC for css3-speech
# [18:40] <sylvaing> I can't edit the CSSOM Constants page anymore :(
# [18:41] <nimbupani> danielweck: Currently 18 issues filed. cant go thro each.
# [18:41] <fantasai> sylvaing, try now?
# [18:41] <nimbupani> danielweck: WG needs to reach consensus on each of these issues. When we accept suggested change in spec, whats the next step?
# [18:42] <nimbupani> glazou: let the commenter know that you addressed the comments, say smthing about the resolution. that person needs to accept or reject your resolution of hte problem
# [18:42] <sylvaing> fantasai, thanks!
# [18:42] <nimbupani> danielweck: what about bigger issues? potential blocker language selection features for TTS voice.
# [18:42] <nimbupani> danielweck: irrespective of nature of markup.
# [18:43] <nimbupani> danielweck: would be a new feature, if we were to accept to introduce the new feature, we mark it at-risk and we republish another LC?
# [18:43] <nimbupani> ChrisL: yes
# [18:43] <nimbupani> glazou: or you can reject the feature and say you will consider for future version
# [18:44] <nimbupani> fantasai: if there is an issue where you and commenter is not agreeing escalate to WG either we make the change or reject. that becomes the official WG response, they either accept or formally object. tht will get recorded in the list of issues and presented to director.
# [18:44] <Zakim> -smfr
# [18:44] <nimbupani> fantasai: we can go to LC when commenter disagrees with us
# [18:45] <nimbupani> danielweck: paul ba* co-author of …
# [18:45] <glazou> bagshaw?
# [18:45] <nimbupani> danielweck: it was one of the major changes of 1.0 to 1.1 of SSML(?)
# [18:45] <nimbupani> danielweck: the abstract of css3 speech states that ssml 1.1 model it implies it follows to letter, it is more flexible goal
# [18:45] <Zakim> +smfr
# [18:45] <nimbupani> ChrisL: which of these options do u want to do?
# [18:46] <nimbupani> danielweck: i would rather stick to our guns
# [18:46] <nimbupani> danielweck: forcing the implementers to convey a set of info about tts voices to styling engine
# [18:46] <nimbupani> danielweck: risk it will be implemented badly and normative stuff needs to be added to spec if it needs to work
# [18:46] <nimbupani> glazou: reasonable to reject and kind of argument we can show to dir.
# [18:47] <nimbupani> ChrisL: do we have a WG resolution to back that?
# [18:47] <nimbupani> danielweck: eventually perhaps next week we should go thro the issues and record the WG consensus
# [18:47] <nimbupani> danielweck: i am happy to work thro this one now.
# [18:47] <nimbupani> glazou: sounds perfect
# [18:47] * Quits: dsinger_ (dsinger@17.244.73.116) (Connection reset by peer)
# [18:48] <nimbupani> fantasai: make sure you end every response with "please let us know if this satisfies your concern"
# [18:48] <nimbupani> danielweck: totally
# [18:48] <Zakim> -ChrisL
# [18:48] <nimbupani> glazou: the FPWGPC and u still added them for official list of issues for last call
# [18:48] <Zakim> +ChrisL
# [18:48] <nimbupani> glazou: you have an option to reject htem coz its too late.
# [18:48] <nimbupani> fantasai: they got an extension
# [18:49] <nimbupani> glazou: it arrived only ½ days ago
# [18:49] <nimbupani> er 1 or 2 days
# [18:49] <Zakim> -nimbupani
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# [18:50] <nimbupani1> oops got d/ced
# [18:50] <fantasai> danielweck: Many of their issues argue that the features in CSS Speech hijack the screen-reader experience, which is.. interesting.
# [18:50] <Zakim> +nimbupani
# [18:50] <fantasai> danielweck: I think we need to clarify that
# [18:51] <nimbupani1> RESOLVED: WG backs danielweck's decision to reject issue-2 for good technical reasons.
# [18:51] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css3-speech#issue-2
# [18:51] <Zakim> -glazou
# [18:51] <nimbupani1> ChrisL: are u clear on next steps danielweck?
# [18:51] * Quits: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19) (Quit: running)
# [18:51] <nimbupani1> danielweck: i hope you can take a look at the issues next week so we can make informed decision
# [18:52] * Quits: nimbupani (Adium@219.64.117.145) (Ping timeout)
# [18:52] <nimbupani1> ChrisL: listing of issues and then look at commenters disagreed on resolution.
# [18:52] * nimbupani1 is now known as nimbupani
# [18:52] <fantasai> danielweck, just let me know when you're done with the DoC in the wiki and I'll convert and colorize it for you
# [18:52] <nimbupani> TOPIC: 2.1 inherit
# [18:52] <danielweck> Thanks Fantasai!
# [18:52] <ChrisL> tab 2.1 inherit http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14420
# [18:53] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: address issue on inital value in draft
# [18:53] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: orgn 2.1 said inherit computed to computed value of its parents
# [18:53] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: currently: if cascaded value is inherit specified value = specified value of parent. both wrong
# [18:53] <nimbupani> dbaron: currently sez is ambiguous
# [18:53] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: if cascade value is inherit, specified value is computed value.
# [18:53] <nimbupani> Florian: what is specified value
# [18:54] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: specified value is pre-any-transformation any value
# [18:54] <sylvaing> thought specified was the value written by the author in their stylesheet
# [18:54] <nimbupani> dbaron: whats not clear to me is why specified value isnt just inherit
# [18:54] <ChrisL> if the parent value is also inherit?
# [18:54] * Quits: johnjansen (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
# [18:55] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
# [18:55] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: not how normal inheritance works, 2. issues with inherit being a specified value, probably not a problem in practice.
# [18:55] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: consistency with real inheritance.
# [18:55] <fantasai> /works/, inheritance takes the computed value of the parent as the specified value on the child/
# [18:56] <oyvind> seems like there's some duplication in 6.2.1 vs 6.1.1...
# [18:56] <nimbupani> ChrisL: i dont hear anyone expressing much of an opinion. are people comfortable with the change. it would be an errata.
# [18:56] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: it would also change values * units
# [18:56] * sylvaing was completely wrong about specified values, as it turns out....
# [18:56] <nimbupani> dbaron: change in 6.1.1 and 6.2.1
# [18:56] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: both needs to be changed
# [18:56] <fantasai> The spec generally assumes that the specified value resolves to a real value, and says "if the specified value is foo, do ..." in many places
# [18:56] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: we will resolve inherit and initial at that point.
# [18:57] <nimbupani> howcome: its consistent with css3 cascade module
# [18:57] <oyvind> sylvaing, I think it changed after http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Mar/0507.html
# [18:57] <nimbupani> whats the resolution
# [18:58] <Zakim> -danielweck
# [18:58] <Zakim> -SteveZ
# [18:58] <nimbupani> RESOLVED: accept TabAtkins and fantasai inherit turns the specified value into the parent's computed value
# [18:58] <Zakim> +??P19
# [18:58] <ChrisL> fantasai/tab CSS 3 V@U issues http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/products/8
# [18:58] <nimbupani> RESOLVED: accept TabAtkins and fantasai's proposal such that inherit turns the specified value into the parent's computed value
# [18:58] <danielweck> Zakim, ??P19 is me
# [18:58] <Zakim> +danielweck; got it
# [18:59] * Bert thinks V@U is "Values & Units"
# [18:59] <nimbupani> fantasai: vm unit is really a v min unit min of vh and vw
# [18:59] * ChrisL has got that now
# [18:59] <nimbupani> fantasai: since we hae a min f() we can remove it.
# [18:59] <nimbupani> fantasai: alt we can rename it
# [18:59] <nimbupani> fantasai: its not clear what it is
# [18:59] <fantasai> to vmin
# [19:00] <nimbupani> dbaron: concerned coz min() is at risk and likely to get dropped
# [19:00] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: at min we should rename to vmin we can mark it as at-risk and at our at-risk notes one or the other should be dropped
# [19:00] <nimbupani> howcome: : why dont we continue to have 2char units
# [19:00] <nimbupani> fantasai: i dont think its worth the confusion
# [19:01] <nimbupani> ChrisL: is that a strong obj
# [19:01] <fantasai> fantasai: Could stand for vmin or vmax
# [19:01] <nimbupani> howcome: going to 4 is suddenly outside of tradition
# [19:01] <fantasai> tabatkins_: or vmean :)
# [19:01] <nimbupani> ChrisL: in this case there is a motivation for the change as its ambiguous
# [19:02] <nimbupani> fantasai: vmin makes it very obv to person reading the stylesheet
# [19:02] * mollydotcom "please don't v mean to me"
# [19:02] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: salvage min f() it would be preferable
# [19:02] <nimbupani> ??: are there places where u can use unit cant use min
# [19:03] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: calc should be usable anywhere that expects a length (min/max too)
# [19:03] <nimbupani> ??: even with 4 char its compact than using min
# [19:03] * Quits: duga (duga@74.125.59.129) (Quit: duga)
# [19:03] <Zakim> -duga.a
# [19:03] * dbaron is going to get kicked out of the conference room he's in about 1 minute
# [19:03] <nimbupani> mollydotcom: does not have an opinion at this point.
# [19:03] <nimbupani> mollydotcom: vmin on its own make more sense
# [19:03] <fantasai> min(5vh, 5vw)
# [19:04] <fantasai> vs 5vmin
# [19:04] * ChrisL howcome the gcpm topic looks like it will need to be next call, is that okay?
# [19:04] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: we can see if there is any use in the wild of those
# [19:05] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: not sure what the usecase of vmin
# [19:05] <nimbupani> howcome: make sure your image does not get outof hte viewport
# [19:05] <nimbupani> mollydotcom: cant imagine a usecase
# [19:05] <Zakim> -dbaron
# [19:05] <fantasai> howcome, use max-height: 100%; max-width: 100%;
# [19:05] <nimbupani> ??: no vmax to ensure complete coverage?
# [19:06] <Zakim> -howcome
# [19:06] <nimbupani> ChrisL: cant get to your topic howcome is it okay to do it on next call
# [19:06] <nimbupani> ChrisL: lets take it to email.
# [19:06] <nimbupani> ChrisL: call adjourned!
# [19:06] * Bert thinks v_min with "min" in small font and lowered a bit
# [19:06] <nimbupani> bye!
# [19:06] <bradk> Just use 71% ;)
# [19:06] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
# [19:06] <Zakim> -kimberlyblessing
# [19:06] <Zakim> -smfr
# [19:06] <Zakim> -Molly_Holzschlag
# [19:06] <Zakim> -hober
# [19:06] <oyvind> max-height/-width only works if containing block is the ICB, right?
# [19:06] <Zakim> -sylvaing
# [19:06] <Zakim> -ChrisL
# [19:06] * Parts: smfr (smfr@17.212.152.232)
# [19:06] <Zakim> -arno
# [19:06] <Zakim> -tabatkins_
# [19:06] <Zakim> -??P13
# [19:06] * Quits: kimberlyblessing (Kimberly@68.81.71.240) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 8.0/20111006182035])
# [19:06] <Zakim> -cesar
# [19:06] <Zakim> -duga
# [19:06] <Zakim> -nimbupani
# [19:06] <fantasai> oyvind: ah, good point
# [19:06] <Zakim> -stearns
# [19:06] <Zakim> -alexmog
# [19:07] <Zakim> -Bert
# [19:07] <Zakim> -florianr
# [19:07] * Parts: florianr (florianr@114.181.159.79)
# [19:07] <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
# [19:07] <Zakim> -danielweck
# [19:07] <fantasai> oyvind: max-height: 100vh; max-width: 100vw
# [19:07] * dbaron thinks Bert's idea would be v_{min} :-)
# [19:07] <bradk> nimbupani, that was me with the vmax comment
# [19:07] <nimbupani> bradk: oops
# [19:07] <nimbupani> fantasai: will fix it =)
# [19:07] <bradk> 's OK
# [19:08] <Zakim> -bradk
# [19:08] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
# [19:08] <Zakim> Attendees were glazou, danielweck, johnjansen, +1.949.477.aaaa, +1.206.324.aabb, +1.619.846.aacc, duga, hober, ChrisL, Molly_Holzschlag, sylvaing, +975901aadd, +1.215.286.aaee,
# [19:08] <Zakim> ... [Microsoft], arronei, Bert, cesar, +1.206.552.aaff, nimbupani, +1.206.550.aagg, stearns, +47.23.69.aahh, howcome, kimberlyblessing, +1.425.246.aaii, [IPcaller], florianr,
# [19:08] <Zakim> ... alexmog, SteveZ, +1.650.275.aajj, dbaron, bradk, +1.281.305.aakk, +1.415.832.aall, tabatkins_, arno, +1.408.636.aamm, smfr
# [19:08] <oyvind> fantasai, right, I guess that would work
# [19:08] <dbaron> TabAtkins, someday I should sit down with you and explain how hard min() and max() are...
# [19:08] * Quits: tabatkins_ (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
# [19:08] <mollydotcom> dbaron: I'd like to understand
# [19:09] <mollydotcom> dbaron: I think it would make a fascinating article for devs
# [19:10] * Quits: danielweck (danielweck@86.158.24.42) (Quit: danielweck)
# [19:10] <ChrisL> I would be interested also,conceptually min and max functions seems simple
# [19:11] * Parts: cesar (acebal@85.152.178.139)
# [19:11] <Ms2ger> ChrisL, like floats? :)
# [19:11] <ChrisL> like IEEE floats with scientific notation.dead simple
# [19:11] <sylvaing> they seem simple, but how often do you nest them in a tree and then resolve them ?
# [19:12] <ChrisL> so it needs a rootwards tree walk to resolve?
# [19:12] <sylvaing> rootwards sounds like a dental procedure
# [19:12] <ChrisL> is there an issue with circularity?
# [19:15] * Quits: bradk (bradk@99.7.175.117) (Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/ )
# [19:17] <dbaron> no, the problem is that many times percentage widths are used in computations in manners other than "take the input and multiply it by the percentage"
# [19:18] <dbaron> one of the problems, anyway
# [19:18] <mollydotcom> can you give a simple example?
# [19:19] <dbaron> I believe calc() with min() and max() allows all piecewise-linear continuous functions from percentage-basis to result, which makes things pretty messy.
# [19:19] <dbaron> An example would be:
# [19:19] <dbaron> <table><tr><td style="width: 25%"><div style="width: 100px"></div></td><td>second cell</td></tr></table>
# [19:19] <dbaron> the table ends up 400px wide
# [19:22] <mollydotcom> is there another width somewhere on the table?
# [19:22] <mollydotcom> this is where I'm confused.
# [19:22] <mollydotcom> 25% of what is my question.
# [19:22] <sylvaing> mollydotcom, no. content of the first cell is 100px, but because it's also 25% of the total you end up with a 400px table
# [19:23] <mollydotcom> ah okay, took me a minute
# [19:23] <mollydotcom> ;)
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# [20:13] <dbaron> fantasai, so given that everybody seems to forget about the 1/100 factor for vh/vw/vm, I really wonder if we shouldn't have the 1/100 factor...
# [20:15] <nimbupani1> +1
# [20:15] * nimbupani1 is now known as divya
# [20:20] <dbaron> hmm, I wrote a response and then realized the email I was responding to was on the WG list...
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# [20:29] <dbaron> arronei, is it ok with you if I reply to https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2011OctDec/0041.html on the public list, quoting part of your message?
# [20:36] * Quits: myakura (myakura@203.136.164.250) (Client exited)
# [20:38] <TabAtkins> dbaron: Sounds like a plan. When would you like to do so?
# [20:38] <dbaron> TabAtkins, at tpac?
# [20:39] <TabAtkins> kk
# [20:40] <TabAtkins> dbaron: (reading scrollback) Yeah, that table example is why I tried arguing against that behavior last time it came up. Layout should proceed downward as much as possible.
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# [21:27] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
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# Session Close: Thu Oct 13 00:00:00 2011

The end :)