/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2011-10-26 / end

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  39. # [03:50] * Topic is 'CSS Working Group | logged at http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/'
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  90. # [17:46] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/10/26-css-irc
  91. # [17:46] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
  92. # [17:46] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 20 minutes
  93. # [17:46] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
  94. # [17:46] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
  95. # [17:48] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@173.228.28.129)
  96. # [18:01] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  97. # [18:01] <Zakim> +??P9
  98. # [18:01] <florian> Zakim, I am ??P9
  99. # [18:01] <Zakim> +florian; got it
  100. # [18:02] <Zakim> +??P20
  101. # [18:02] <glazou> Zakim, ??P20 is me
  102. # [18:02] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
  103. # [18:03] <Zakim> +plinss
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  106. # [18:04] <Zakim> + +34.93.192.aaaa
  107. # [18:04] <Zakim> +stearns
  108. # [18:04] <glazou> Zakim, aaaa is antonp
  109. # [18:04] <Zakim> +antonp; got it
  110. # [18:05] * glazou coughs a bit, sorry for that
  111. # [18:05] <Zakim> + +1.408.543.aabb
  112. # [18:05] <Zakim> +hober
  113. # [18:05] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  114. # [18:06] * Joins: vhardy (vhardy@192.150.10.201)
  115. # [18:06] <glazou> Zakim, aabb is ericmueller
  116. # [18:06] <Zakim> +ericmueller; got it
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  120. # [18:07] <Zakim> +dbaron
  121. # [18:08] * Joins: TabAtkins_ (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  122. # [18:08] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  123. # [18:09] <Zakim> +smfr
  124. # [18:09] * dbaron Zakim, [Microsoft] has Rossen
  125. # [18:09] * Zakim +Rossen; got it
  126. # [18:09] <Zakim> +??P56
  127. # [18:09] <Zakim> +bradk
  128. # [18:09] <Zakim> +Bert
  129. # [18:09] <kojiishi> zakim, ??p56 is me
  130. # [18:09] <Zakim> +kojiishi; got it
  131. # [18:09] <Zakim> +tabatkins_
  132. # [18:10] <Zakim> +fantasai
  133. # [18:12] <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
  134. # [18:12] <fantasai> glazou: Extra items?
  135. # [18:12] <TabAtkins_> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2011OctDec/0047.html
  136. # [18:12] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Would like quick yay/nay on inactive text notice
  137. # [18:13] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
  138. # [18:13] <fantasai> Topic: Note for obsolescence of old WDs
  139. # [18:13] <dbaron> In addition to the use of "should" and "must", I think you should change "CSSWG" to "CSS Working Group"
  140. # [18:14] <fantasai> This specification is not being actively maintained, and must not be
  141. # [18:14] <fantasai> used as a guide for implementations. It may be revived in the future,
  142. # [18:14] <fantasai> but for now should be considered obsolete.
  143. # [18:14] <fantasai> If you have questions or comments on this specification, please send
  144. # [18:14] <fantasai> an email to the CSSWG's mailing list at www-style@w3.org.
  145. # [18:14] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.82)
  146. # [18:14] <fantasai> Bert: Tab can add to the editors' drafts, but what about published drafts?
  147. # [18:15] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/
  148. # [18:15] <fantasai> Tab: Should republish WD as well, possibly add a sentence or two
  149. # [18:15] <Zakim> +SteveZ
  150. # [18:15] <fantasai> glazou: Link to www-style
  151. # [18:16] <fantasai> Bert: Do we have a list of all the obsolete drafts?
  152. # [18:16] <fantasai> Tab: I started a list in the thread, two emails asking for changes to the list
  153. # [18:16] <fantasai> Tab: Would go with that list amended
  154. # [18:16] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec
  155. # [18:17] <sylvaing> Zakim, [Microsoft] has sylvaing, Rossen
  156. # [18:17] <Zakim> Rossen was already listed in [Microsoft], sylvaing
  157. # [18:17] <Zakim> +sylvaing; got it
  158. # [18:17] * glazou again, sorry if I cough a little bit
  159. # [18:17] <fantasai> fantasai suggests putting the list on the wiki
  160. # [18:17] * Joins: miketaylr (miketaylr@206.217.92.186)
  161. # [18:17] <fantasai> Topic: TPAC
  162. # [18:17] <fantasai> glazou: Has everyone seen the details for the Sunday meeting at Adobe?
  163. # [18:17] <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/tpac-2011
  164. # [18:18] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.aa]
  165. # [18:18] <arronei_> zakim, microsoft has me
  166. # [18:18] <Zakim> +arronei_; got it
  167. # [18:19] <fantasai> vhardy: We're thinking of setting up dinner at 6:30pm in San Jose, that sound ok?
  168. # [18:19] * sylvaing -car-box-pack: auto
  169. # [18:19] <fantasai> glazou: Some people are vegetarian?
  170. # [18:19] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Given Vincent's vegetarian, I'm sure he's handled that.
  171. # [18:20] <fantasai> glazou: I will browse agenda items for TPAC tomorrow and try to schedule things
  172. # [18:20] <fantasai> Florian: There was on the W3C site a very long list of ppl who would like to observe
  173. # [18:20] <fantasai> glazou: I got some requests from Adobe for observers from Adobe
  174. # [18:21] <fantasai> glazou: I also got some requests for other observers. I gave them rules we gave the Japanese observers at Mozilla. We usually accept all observers, as long as there is space.
  175. # [18:21] <fantasai> Florian: The list on w3c site was O(tens)
  176. # [18:21] <fantasai> glazou: I notice a lot of ppl arriving Friday, could make dinner plans for Friday night
  177. # [18:22] <fantasai> over email
  178. # [18:22] <Zakim> + +1.408.536.aacc
  179. # [18:22] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  180. # [18:22] <fantasai> glazou: anything else about TPAC?
  181. # [18:22] <Zakim> +bradk.a
  182. # [18:22] <fantasai> vhardy: How are we arranging carpool?
  183. # [18:22] <Zakim> -bradk
  184. # [18:22] <fantasai> fantasai: I'm just going to assign people to cars later this week
  185. # [18:23] <fantasai> Topic: CSS3 Values and Units
  186. # [18:23] <Bert> (We have 35 people signed for the meeting up as *member*, assuming they all clicked the right button, we'll not have much room for the 32 observers...)
  187. # [18:23] <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/products/8
  188. # [18:24] <glazou> Bert: do you have a direct link for that?
  189. # [18:24] <glazou> oh sorry
  190. # [18:24] <glazou> wanted the list of observers
  191. # [18:24] <Bert> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35125/TPAC2011/registrants
  192. # [18:24] <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/issues/77
  193. # [18:24] <glazou> ISSUE 77
  194. # [18:24] * Joins: szilles (chatzilla@192.150.10.200)
  195. # [18:24] <fantasai> ISSUE-77: Cap-height unit proposal from dbaron http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Nov/0552.html
  196. # [18:24] * trackbot attempting to add a note to ISSUE-77.
  197. # [18:24] <trackbot> ISSUE-77 Cap-height unit proposal notes added
  198. # [18:25] * Joins: JohnJansen (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  199. # [18:25] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  200. # [18:25] <JohnJansen> zakim, microsoft has johnjan
  201. # [18:25] <Zakim> sorry, JohnJansen, I do not recognize a party named 'microsoft'
  202. # [18:25] <JohnJansen> zakim, microsoft has johnjansen
  203. # [18:25] <Zakim> sorry, JohnJansen, I do not recognize a party named 'microsoft'
  204. # [18:25] <fantasai> fantasai: Question is add or don't add; should be similar to ex-height to define
  205. # [18:25] <Rossen> How is this going to impact the line height itelf?
  206. # [18:25] <Rossen> (sorry my phone connection died)
  207. # [18:25] <glazou> ACTION glazou: send an email to people who requested observer status
  208. # [18:25] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  209. # [18:25] * RRSAgent records action 1
  210. # [18:25] <trackbot> Created ACTION-373 - Send an email to people who requested observer status [on Daniel Glazman - due 2011-11-02].
  211. # [18:26] <fantasai> Florian: What about Japanese text?
  212. # [18:26] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  213. # [18:26] <fantasai> dbaron: The use case is fitting something on the baseline to be the size of the letters
  214. # [18:26] <JohnJansen> zakim, microsoft has johnjansen
  215. # [18:26] <Zakim> +johnjansen; got it
  216. # [18:26] <fantasai> sylvaing: what kind of use case?
  217. # [18:27] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.aaa]
  218. # [18:27] <fantasai> szilles: introducing new glyphs, e.g. for math
  219. # [18:27] <fantasai> Florian: Not sure introducing one unit will be enough to solve the problem
  220. # [18:27] <fantasai> TabAtkins: For Japanese, em-height should do it. For lowercase letters, ex-height will do it
  221. # [18:28] <fantasai> sylvaing: Is this common? Do people like Brad have to do this often and have to hack it?
  222. # [18:28] <fantasai> TabAtkins: If I'm putting a sparkline inline with the text, you don't want it to be bigger than the text.
  223. # [18:29] <fantasai> fantasai: Wouldn't that be em-height?
  224. # [18:29] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Not if you want it baseline-aligned
  225. # [18:29] <fantasai> sylvaing: Is it a height issue or baseline issue?
  226. # [18:29] <fantasai> fantasai: The height you choose depends on the baseline you choose
  227. # [18:30] * glazou heard someone laughing at 'we have vertical alignment' ? :-)
  228. # [18:30] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Right now, if you want something to extend from top to bottom of the line, you set vertical-align to bottom and give it 1em height
  229. # [18:30] <fantasai> TabAtkins: You can make it ex-height and baseline-aligned to fit within the lowercase area
  230. # [18:31] <fantasai> TabAtkins: But you can't do baseline to top because we don't have this case
  231. # [18:31] * Joins: jarek (jarek@83.27.64.125)
  232. # [18:31] <fantasai> Florian: If we can solve all languages with one or two units, then it's good, but if it's many new units for all scripts, then maybe that doesn't work so well
  233. # [18:32] <fantasai> and we should use a different solution
  234. # [18:32] <fantasai> szilles: The ratio of ascender to descender can vary between fonts. So cap-height will be different for different fonts.
  235. # [18:33] <stearns> there are a lot of font metrics we could expose - we may want to defer doing this until we have the time/interest in exposing it all
  236. # [18:33] <fantasai> Florian: i think the idea is good if it extends to other scripts
  237. # [18:33] <fantasai> sylvaing: And if the fonts support this data
  238. # [18:34] <fantasai> some discussion of international considerations: ideographic, indic, vertical-flow, thai
  239. # [18:35] <fantasai> fantasai: So the plan is, afaict, to defer this to the next level
  240. # [18:35] <fantasai> szilles: I'll ask font guys about metrics for things like sparklines
  241. # [18:36] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Deferred to level 4
  242. # [18:36] <fantasai> TabAtkins: next issue is required ranges for CSS
  243. # [18:37] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Implementations must go at least up to this number; may go beyond
  244. # [18:37] <fantasai> szilles: Didn't we resolve on this?
  245. # [18:37] <fantasai> fantasai: We resolved to have this requirement, but not what it is
  246. # [18:38] * Joins: jarek_ (jarek@79.186.14.224)
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  248. # [18:38] <fantasai> Florian: Let's assign action items to browser vendors to investigate
  249. # [18:38] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I've never heard anyone complain about overflow, so whatever we're doing is fine.
  250. # [18:38] <fantasai> s/doing/doing now/
  251. # [18:38] <fantasai> arronei: I have most of the information/testcases for this
  252. # [18:38] * glazou we need a test case for z-index for the max
  253. # [18:39] <fantasai> arronei: new properties would be tricky if they're different
  254. # [18:39] <Bert> (Range? Or precision?)
  255. # [18:39] <fantasai> fantasai: Can you make a proposal for what to put in Values and Units?
  256. # [18:39] <fantasai> arronei: I can collect the data
  257. # [18:39] <fantasai> Bert: I wonder if this is 2 different things. Range - do we accept 10km? But also precision.
  258. # [18:40] <fantasai> Do we handle 1 part in 1000
  259. # [18:40] <fantasai> ACTION arronei: collect data and make a proposal
  260. # [18:40] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  261. # [18:40] * RRSAgent records action 2
  262. # [18:40] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - arronei
  263. # [18:41] <glazou> ACTION arronei_: collect data and make a proposal
  264. # [18:41] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  265. # [18:41] * RRSAgent records action 3
  266. # [18:41] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - arronei_
  267. # [18:41] <glazou> arronei_: zakim does not know you today
  268. # [18:41] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I know Opera goes under 2^31 on some things
  269. # [18:41] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@17.197.32.11)
  270. # [18:41] <fantasai> ?: If something like this goes into the spec, it should be on the lower bounds so that we don't have to go fix anything depending on the type
  271. # [18:41] * sylvaing scribe, this is Rossen...
  272. # [18:42] <glazou> Zakim, who is here?
  273. # [18:42] <fantasai> Florian: Why are we doing this?
  274. # [18:42] <Zakim> On the phone I see florian, glazou, plinss, antonp, stearns, ericmueller, hober, [IPcaller], dbaron, smfr, kojiishi, Bert, tabatkins_, fantasai, [Microsoft.a], [Microsoft.aa],
  275. # [18:42] <Zakim> ... +1.408.536.aacc, bradk.a, [Microsoft], [Microsoft.aaa]
  276. # [18:42] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has johnjansen
  277. # [18:42] <Zakim> On IRC I see dsinger, jarek_, JohnJansen, szilles, miketaylr, sylvaing, TabAtkins_, Rossen, smfr, bradk, vhardy, antonp, oyvind, dbaron, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, CSSWG_LogBot,
  278. # [18:42] <fantasai> TabAtkins: For the test suites, we need to know what's a valid range to test
  279. # [18:42] <Zakim> ... florian, kojiishi, myakura, florianr, lhnz, arronei_, krijnh, stearns, karl, TabAtkins, Hixie, pjrm, Bert, shepazu, davve, hober, gsnedders, plinss, fantasai, ed, trackbot
  280. # [18:42] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Right now we could know implementations support up to .. 8 but nothing beyond that.
  281. # [18:43] <fantasai> TabAtkins: It's primarily a quality-of-implementation issue, but want some minimum to meet or exceed
  282. # [18:43] * Quits: jarek_ (jarek@79.186.14.224) (Quit: jarek_)
  283. # [18:43] * Joins: jarek (jarek@79.186.14.224)
  284. # [18:43] <dbaron> Florian: It's not intended to be an exercise where we have to change the implementations, right?
  285. # [18:44] <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/issues/186
  286. # [18:44] <fantasai> TabAtkins: proposal to move CSSOM value serialization from CSSOM to CSS3 Values
  287. # [18:45] <fantasai> dbaron: That's moving them from a less stable spec to a more stable spec
  288. # [18:45] <dbaron> dbaron: I'd like to review them carefully... may not have gotten a lot of atttention yet.
  289. # [18:45] <fantasai> fantasai: Question here is, do we even want to move them
  290. # [18:46] <fantasai> glazou: Seems like a Pandora's box
  291. # [18:47] <fantasai> glazou: Would want to add serialization to all the other CSS constructs
  292. # [18:47] <fantasai> glazou: Also, might be useful to implementers to have it all in one place
  293. # [18:47] <fantasai> fantasai: Could be a separate, parallel module, e.g. CSSOM Values and Units
  294. # [18:47] <fantasai> sylvaing: or just have Serialization be its own thing
  295. # [18:48] <fantasai> sylvaing: I think if you want to move Values and Units forward, doesn't seem like a good idea.
  296. # [18:48] <fantasai> sylvaing: I think having a single core Serialization spec would be a good idea
  297. # [18:48] <fantasai> glazou: I'd like time to investigate that.
  298. # [18:49] <fantasai> glazou: I think we should leave it in CSSOM spec for now, and decide later when we know better what needs to be split out and dispatch to the various modules.
  299. # [18:49] <fantasai> glazou: It's a lot of work.
  300. # [18:49] <fantasai> fantasai: So close this issue no change?
  301. # [18:50] <fantasai> glazou: That's my recommendation.
  302. # [18:50] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
  303. # [18:50] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Closed no change
  304. # [18:50] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou (69%), Bert (4%), tabatkins_ (20%)
  305. # [18:51] <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/issues/190
  306. # [18:51] * sylvaing 69% of the noise is produced by one person #OccupyGlazou
  307. # [18:51] <fantasai> Removing or renaming 'vm' unit
  308. # [18:51] <glazou> ROFL
  309. # [18:51] <fantasai> sylvaing: There is one implementation, but at this point no clue on how ...
  310. # [18:52] <fantasai> fantasai: I'm strongly in favor of renaming, b/c I think it's vague and ambiguous and confusing.
  311. # [18:52] <fantasai> Florian: The objection was based on most units being 2 letters
  312. # [18:53] <fantasai> TabAtkins: We already have 3-letter units, so ehh
  313. # [18:53] <fantasai> arronei: Have an implementation, but not a strong objection.
  314. # [18:54] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Rename 'vm' as 'vmin'.
  315. # [18:54] <fantasai> Florian: Should we keep it at-risk?
  316. # [18:54] <fantasai> fantasai: Could do, but I doubt someone implementing 'vh' and 'vw' would skip it
  317. # [18:56] <fantasai> fantasai: We could keep it at-risk, but that won't really mean much.
  318. # [18:57] <fantasai> Florian: ppl are confused about whether it's 1/100th or just 1x
  319. # [18:57] <Zakim> -smfr
  320. # [18:57] <Zakim> +smfr
  321. # [18:58] <fantasai> fantasai: I think part of the problem is the spec was not very clear in tying these to the idea of percentages, which make the 1/100th seem less arbitrary.
  322. # [18:58] <fantasai> fantasai: Also, since IE has an implementation; chances are vh and vw are more used than vm, also this would be an interpretation difference; vm -> vmin would trigger a parse error
  323. # [18:59] <fantasai> fantasai: So I'm leaning towards not changing it
  324. # [18:59] <fantasai> RESOLVED: vh/vw/vm stay as percentages, clarify spec
  325. # [19:00] <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/issues/192
  326. # [19:00] <fantasai> Move "Stages of Value Computation" spec to CSS3 Cascade
  327. # [19:00] <Zakim> -fantasai
  328. # [19:01] <fantasai> glazou: what means "mostly" in 2.1?
  329. # [19:01] <fantasai> glazou: what's missing?
  330. # [19:01] <fantasai> fantasai: Only examples afaict
  331. # [19:01] <Zakim> +fantasai
  332. # [19:03] <fantasai> glazou: I'm ok to move it if CSS3 Cascade is not marked as obsolete
  333. # [19:04] <fantasai> fantasai: Ok, I'm willing to work with that conditional. Does anyone else have an opinion?
  334. # [19:04] <fantasai> dbaron: If someone starts fixing them up, shouldn't be marked obsolete
  335. # [19:04] <fantasai> szilles: mark it unmaintained, not obsolete
  336. # [19:04] <fantasai> Florian: Would need the spec to have an editor
  337. # [19:04] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Doesn't need one if it's identical to 2.1
  338. # [19:06] <fantasai> fantasai: So if we update CSS3 Cascade and sync it to 2.1 and post a WD, and then leave it there without taking to LC because there's nothing new or useful in it, is that ok?
  339. # [19:06] <fantasai> florian: Why not move it along the rec track?
  340. # [19:06] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Editors' time
  341. # [19:06] <fantasai> glazou: And test suite
  342. # [19:06] * sylvaing we need more editors...
  343. # [19:07] * Quits: bradk (bradk@99.7.175.117) (Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/ )
  344. # [19:07] <Zakim> -ericmueller
  345. # [19:07] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  346. # [19:07] <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
  347. # [19:07] * Bert hopes Air France will actually fly this weekend...
  348. # [19:07] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
  349. # [19:07] <Zakim> -dbaron
  350. # [19:07] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.aa]
  351. # [19:07] <Zakim> -glazou
  352. # [19:07] <Zakim> -hober
  353. # [19:07] <Zakim> -tabatkins_
  354. # [19:07] <Zakim> -kojiishi
  355. # [19:07] * Parts: antonp (50aef5ba@64.62.228.82)
  356. # [19:07] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.aaa]
  357. # [19:07] <Zakim> -stearns
  358. # [19:07] <Zakim> -florian
  359. # [19:07] <Zakim> -smfr
  360. # [19:07] <glazou> Bert: why do you think I am flying on friday :-) before the strike...
  361. # [19:07] * Quits: kojiishi (kojiishi@222.158.227.129) (Quit: Leaving...)
  362. # [19:07] <Zakim> - +1.408.536.aacc
  363. # [19:07] <Zakim> -fantasai
  364. # [19:07] <Zakim> -antonp
  365. # [19:07] <Zakim> -plinss
  366. # [19:08] <Zakim> -Bert
  367. # [19:08] <Zakim> -bradk.a
  368. # [19:08] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  369. # [19:08] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Move this section to CSS3 Cascade, update CSS3 Cascade and sync to 2.1 so that it's unmaintained but not obsolete, and when someone has a reason to move it forward along the rec track (i.e. someething to put in it that's not already in 2.1) then they can move it forward from there.
  370. # [19:08] <Zakim> Attendees were florian, glazou, plinss, +34.93.192.aaaa, stearns, antonp, +1.408.543.aabb, hober, [IPcaller], ericmueller, dbaron, smfr, Rossen, bradk, Bert, kojiishi, tabatkins_,
  371. # [19:08] <Zakim> ... fantasai, SteveZ, sylvaing, arronei_, +1.408.536.aacc, johnjansen, [Microsoft]
  372. # [19:08] * Quits: smfr (smfr@173.228.90.95) (Quit: smfr)
  373. # [19:08] * Quits: JohnJansen (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
  374. # [19:08] <szilles> note +1.408.536.aacc was SteveZ
  375. # [19:09] * Quits: TabAtkins_ (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
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  417. # Session Close: Thu Oct 27 00:00:00 2011

The end :)