/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2011-11-02 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Nov 02 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #css
  3. # [00:00] <Bert> janina: Weith a little bit of your help we can close that gap better.
  4. # [00:00] <Bert> fantasai: We need more specific ideas of what to do.
  5. # [00:00] * Joins: ChrisWilson (ChrisWilso@216.239.45.4)
  6. # [00:00] <plinss> RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
  7. # [00:00] <RRSAgent> ok, plinss; I will not start a new log at midnight
  8. # [00:00] <Bert> MichaelC: Animations:
  9. # [00:00] <dbaron> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-conditional/#at-document
  10. # [00:01] <Bert> ... user must be able to stop any movement.
  11. # [00:01] <Bert> ... We didn't see that in marquee or animation.
  12. # [00:01] <Bert> ... Or need a script interface for that.
  13. # [00:01] <Bert> Tab: For animations, that can be done.
  14. # [00:01] <Bert> ... You can set the marquee property to off, too.
  15. # [00:02] <fantasai> turning off can be done easily, not pausing
  16. # [00:02] * Quits: drublic (drublic@77.2.147.143) (Client exited)
  17. # [00:02] <Bert> ... Dean JAckson is working n animations and starting stopping them.
  18. # [00:02] <Bert> ... Seems to be addressed.
  19. # [00:02] <Bert> dbaron: What do you want exactly?
  20. # [00:02] <Bert> MichaelC: Give users their own choices.
  21. # [00:02] <Bert> ... Preventing aimations fromn starting, rather than stopping them.
  22. # [00:03] <Bert> ... Need one of the two.
  23. # [00:03] <Bert> Simon: What about javascript-driven animations? No css involved there at all.
  24. # [00:03] * Quits: myakura (myakura@63.145.238.4) (Client exited)
  25. # [00:04] <Bert> dbaron: Do you want a script interface to [missed]
  26. # [00:05] * fantasai thinks dbaron should type what was missed, it was probably important
  27. # [00:05] <Bert> MichaelC: A global stop is useful. Also useful to stop animations at case by case basis.
  28. # [00:05] * fantasai assumes everything dbaron says is important, because it usually is :)
  29. # [00:05] <Bert> arron: Nedd to stop/start, or also speed?
  30. # [00:05] * Quits: Cathy (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  31. # [00:05] <sylvaing> dbaron asked whether we wanted a script interface to stop animations or whether we wanted a script interface to detect whether the user disabled animations ?
  32. # [00:05] <Bert> MichaelC: No guideline for controlling speed, though it would be useful.
  33. # [00:05] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@63.145.238.4) (Connection reset by peer)
  34. # [00:06] * Joins: dbaron_ (dbaron@63.145.238.4)
  35. # [00:06] <dbaron_> dbaron: Do you want a script interface for the page to stop animations or a script interface for the page to tell the user that they stopped animations?
  36. # [00:06] <dbaron_> (the network keeps flaking out on me)
  37. # [00:06] <Bert> Simon: Browser doesn't know that javascripot is doing an animation.
  38. # [00:06] <Bert> MichaelC: That is for the author to solve, not for CSS.
  39. # [00:06] * Quits: hiroki (h_yamada@128.30.52.28) (Quit: hiroki)
  40. # [00:06] <Bert> ... For CSS animations, the browser knows that ather eis an animation.
  41. # [00:07] <Bert> dbaron: Some extent physical model, some extent conceptual model.
  42. # [00:07] * Joins: arno (arno@63.145.238.4)
  43. # [00:07] <fantasai> dbaron^: user style sheet is
  44. # [00:07] <Bert> ... Easy to express in CSS that nothign animates. * {animation: none!improtant}
  45. # [00:08] <Bert> Tab: Withing CSS animation, we are mostly already addressing this, or will address it soon.
  46. # [00:08] <Bert> ... May be an avenue for a new JS interface.
  47. # [00:08] <dbaron_> and earlier I linked to http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-conditional/#at-document if you missed that
  48. # [00:08] <Bert> ... Some UA pref to read.
  49. # [00:08] <Bert> fantasai: Earlier discussion, some years ago, yo extent MQ with user prefs.
  50. # [00:09] <Bert> ... A MQ-type thing can address several concerns. Would need a module.
  51. # [00:09] <Bert> .. Need to thing what an author would want to query.
  52. # [00:09] <Bert> ... Maybe a task for PF, to list the things.
  53. # [00:09] <Bert> MichaelC: We can take an action for that.
  54. # [00:09] <Bert> dbaron_: privacy concerns as well.
  55. # [00:10] <Bert> fantasai: Let's collect tham in obne place and have a common interface to them.
  56. # [00:10] <Bert> s/.. N/... N/
  57. # [00:11] <MichaelC> PFWG-ACTION-929
  58. # [00:11] <Bert> [PF takes the action]
  59. # [00:11] <Bert> [Tantek joins]
  60. # [00:11] * Joins: gilles (gilles@63.145.238.4)
  61. # [00:11] <Bert> James: nav-index and precedence, and nav-index vs layout order.
  62. # [00:12] <Bert> cynthia: and please a summary of what nav-index is for.
  63. # [00:12] <Bert> tantek: Author may rearrange spatially the elements and therefore needs to change the navigation from the browser default.
  64. # [00:12] <Bert> ... Author can change nav-index along with layout.
  65. # [00:13] <Bert> ... Both in same style sheet.
  66. # [00:13] <Bert> ... nav-index is for sequential navigation.
  67. # [00:13] <Bert> ... nav-up, etc. is for directional navigation.
  68. # [00:13] * Joins: Kai (chatzilla@63.145.238.4)
  69. # [00:13] <Bert> ... Can do better than the browser default that way.
  70. # [00:13] <Bert> ... E.g., mobile phones with four nav keys.
  71. # [00:14] <fantasai> ... e.g. TV
  72. # [00:14] <Bert> .. Is in addtion to, but not oinstea dof othe rmechanism.
  73. # [00:14] <Bert> s/.. /... /
  74. # [00:14] <Bert> cynthia: tab orde rin kwyboard interface. And how about flexbox?
  75. # [00:14] <Bert> Tantek: I need not be a tab key, it is abstract.
  76. # [00:15] <Bert> ... CSS would override th mark-up, the same way as it overrides the layout.
  77. # [00:15] <Bert> Tab: tabindex would be expressed in terms of CSS.
  78. # [00:15] <Bert> Tantek: The HTML attribute tabindex would be liek the default.
  79. # [00:15] <Bert> ... Would have a UA default style that uses that.
  80. # [00:16] <Bert> ... I know Opera has implemented nav-index, nav-*
  81. # [00:16] <Bert> .. They don't have flexbox.
  82. # [00:16] <Bert> ... So cannot see combination currently.
  83. # [00:16] <Bert> s/.. T/... T/
  84. # [00:17] <Bert> dbaron: navindex may need something else to move chunks around as a whole.
  85. # [00:17] <Bert> ... Not sure this is like z-index.
  86. # [00:17] <Bert> ... But need to think about it.
  87. # [00:17] * Quits: anne (annevk@63.145.238.4) (Quit: anne)
  88. # [00:17] <Bert> Tantek: nav-index and tabindex have the same problems.
  89. # [00:17] <Bert> ... Putting it in CSS keeps the layout and order in sync.
  90. # [00:17] <Bert> ... But may be able to do better.
  91. # [00:18] <Bert> Tab: [somebody] is working on this, and changign things locally instead of globally.
  92. # [00:18] <dbaron_> Tab: Tantek, You want to talk to Ryosuke Niwa (rniwa at google)
  93. # [00:18] <Bert> James: We recommend tabindex=0 and tabindex=-1
  94. # [00:18] <Bert> ... latter says it is not navigable.
  95. # [00:18] * Quits: Ms2ger (Ms2ger@91.181.84.233) (Quit: nn)
  96. # [00:19] <Bert> ... New extensions, since 3 years.
  97. # [00:19] <Bert> .. They are not covered in nav-index.
  98. # [00:19] <Bert> s/.. /... /
  99. # [00:19] * Quits: jun_ (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  100. # [00:19] <Bert> cynthia: run-time only.
  101. # [00:19] <Bert> Tab: You know it at the time you declare stuff in CSS.
  102. # [00:20] <Bert> MichaelC: Can elements in the middle of animations while users interact with them?
  103. # [00:20] <Bert> Tab: yes, they can.
  104. # [00:20] <Bert> ... But you can control focus.
  105. # [00:20] <Bert> ... Can stop and resume.
  106. # [00:20] <dbaron_> Tab: You could pause animations while matching :focus or :hover
  107. # [00:21] <Bert> Cynthia: Were would the focus be? Say in the middle of a swipe.
  108. # [00:21] <Bert> dbaron: In general, animations don't add anything that Javascript soesn't do already, just more declarative.
  109. # [00:21] <Bert> ... No new conceptual problems, but declarative gives more control.
  110. # [00:21] <Bert> MichaelC: Author can add features in same declaratyive way.
  111. # [00:22] <Bert> MichaelC: Critical topic:
  112. # [00:22] <Bert> ... Seizures
  113. # [00:22] * Joins: howard (howard_wan@63.145.238.4)
  114. # [00:22] <dbaron_> (Also, I'd note that tabindex=0 and tabindex=-1 should, in CSS, be keywords rather than magic numbers.)
  115. # [00:22] <Bert> ... Can be provoked by animations.
  116. # [00:22] <Bert> ... Need a warning to authors in the spec.
  117. # [00:22] * Joins: myakura (myakura@209.119.68.98)
  118. # [00:22] * Joins: glazou (glazou@63.145.238.4)
  119. # [00:23] <Bert> ... Not usual, but this is an important case.
  120. # [00:23] * Joins: anne (annevk@63.145.238.4)
  121. # [00:23] <Bert> JohnJ: Where do we put that?
  122. # [00:23] <Bert> MichaelC: Some visible location.
  123. # [00:24] <Bert> ACTION sylvain to add wartning (with link) about seizures to Animations spec.
  124. # [00:24] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  125. # [00:24] <trackbot> Created ACTION-399 - Add wartning (with link) about seizures to Animations spec. [on Sylvain Galineau - due 2011-11-08].
  126. # [00:24] <Bert> Tantek: maybe add things to a validator based on that note?
  127. # [00:25] <Bert> James: certain frwquencies
  128. # [00:25] <Bert> Tantek: automated tools help with catching more of them.
  129. # [00:25] <Bert> JohnJ: The warnign will often be incorrect.
  130. # [00:25] <Bert> James: WCAG has the frquencies.
  131. # [00:26] <TabAtkins_> Action johnjansen to investigate automated tools for detecting seizure-inducing animations/transitions.
  132. # [00:26] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  133. # [00:26] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - johnjansen
  134. # [00:26] <TabAtkins_> Action johnjan to investigate automated tools for detecting seizure-inducing animations/transitions.
  135. # [00:26] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  136. # [00:26] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - johnjan
  137. # [00:26] <Bert> MichaelC: Some 60 Hz or so, but depends on colors as well.
  138. # [00:26] <TabAtkins_> Action JohnJansen to investigate automated tools for detecting seizure-inducing animations/transitions.
  139. # [00:26] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  140. # [00:26] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - JohnJansen
  141. # [00:26] <TabAtkins_> Action Jansen to investigate automated tools for detecting seizure-inducing animations/transitions.
  142. # [00:26] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  143. # [00:26] <trackbot> Created ACTION-400 - Investigate automated tools for detecting seizure-inducing animations/transitions. [on John Jansen - due 2011-11-08].
  144. # [00:26] <Bert> Tantek: capture suggestions for validators.
  145. # [00:27] <Bert> ... Responsability on module editros.
  146. # [00:27] <Bert> MichaelC: Great, that is more than I asked for.
  147. # [00:27] * Quits: chsiao (chatzilla@63.145.238.4) (Client exited)
  148. # [00:28] <Bert> ... In some environments layout may be awkward. MQ can obviously help. But are there aother ways to address that?
  149. # [00:28] <Bert> ... MQ is sort of a sledgehammer approach, not all authors will do that.
  150. # [00:28] <Bert> ... Say a table that automatically adjust narrow width, handle overflow.
  151. # [00:28] <Bert> ... Could be several kinds of effects.
  152. # [00:29] <Bert> Markus: We recommend MQ currently.
  153. # [00:29] <Bert> fantasai: Multicol handles it automatically.
  154. # [00:29] <Bert> ... flexbox can wrap.
  155. # [00:29] <Bert> ... There are some moduels that address it, others that don't and that is a concern of mine as well.
  156. # [00:30] <Bert> dbaron: We want layout systenms with some flexibility. But we don't know how to build perfectly flexible systems.
  157. # [00:30] <Bert> ... MQ offers authors the choice.
  158. # [00:30] <Bert> Markus: Some specs, by theri nature,
  159. # [00:30] <Bert> ... need MQ as the way out.
  160. # [00:31] <Bert> Tab: Some layout can handle it automatically, for others it is MQ.
  161. # [00:31] <Bert> fantasai: Should first try automatical. For more extreme cases, or for more optimized mathods, go to MQ.
  162. # [00:32] <Bert> James: Maybe some author examples.
  163. # [00:32] <Bert> ... Font-size can be large, can influence column size.
  164. # [00:32] <Bert> ... Use rem e.g.,
  165. # [00:32] <Bert> ... Things an author should consider.
  166. # [00:32] <Bert> fantasai: Excellent point, We should adopt the examples.
  167. # [00:33] <Bert> ... And also build in flexibility as much as we can.
  168. # [00:33] <Bert> James: min-width in rem is important.
  169. # [00:33] <Bert> dbaron: In egneral using em is good to deal with unexpected font-sizes.
  170. # [00:33] <fantasai> s/the examples/good examples/
  171. # [00:34] * dbaron_ notes Bert said "that was too soft, I couldn't hear you" quite softly
  172. # [00:34] <Bert> Markus: One requirement is that text is flexible
  173. # [00:34] <Bert> ... If mroe space is available, could get bigger.
  174. # [00:34] <fantasai> calc+vm unit :)
  175. # [00:34] <Bert> MichaelC: Somethign about tables, not sure what our issue is.
  176. # [00:35] <Bert> James: Exposing a table.
  177. # [00:35] <fantasai> james: exposing CSS tables as a table api
  178. # [00:35] <Bert> dbaron: people who use tables for layout, in a grid-like table, should have a mark-up that is *not* a table.
  179. # [00:36] <fantasai> fantasai^: yeah, that is totally wrong (referring to james)
  180. # [00:36] <Bert> Steve: Firefox exposed CSS tables as table API.
  181. # [00:36] * Quits: jamesn (jamesn@63.145.238.4) (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi)
  182. # [00:36] <Bert> ... Was some feedback from IT vendors that it should be like that.
  183. # [00:37] <fantasai> dbaron: Gecko's accessibility api operates off the rendering tree instead of the content tree, which I've always considered to be a major design flaw.
  184. # [00:37] <Bert> dbaron: I think Gecko's design is wrong to use rendering tree for accessibility api. But that is the ay it has always been.
  185. # [00:38] <Bert> Steve: If it s a CSS table, it appears as a tabel in the API, but it should expose that it si a layout table to the user.
  186. # [00:38] <Bert> cynthia: But if an author used it for a data table...
  187. # [00:38] <Bert> ... I've seen data tables done with DIVs in the past.
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  190. # [00:39] <Bert> James: Seems a bug. Rendering should not affect accessibility tree.
  191. # [00:39] <Bert> Tab: Currently only tables in 2.1, no module for it.
  192. # [00:40] <Bert> Steve: Table flattened.
  193. # [00:41] <Bert> Tantek: Using DIVs for data tables, and limited flxibility: what if there is not enough width?
  194. # [00:41] <Bert> Steve: Make it a block, and it reflows, doesn't it?
  195. # [00:41] <Bert> ... I can give you some examples.
  196. # [00:41] <Bert> Tantek: caltrain.org has a table that breaks on blackberry.
  197. # [00:42] <Bert> ... I'd love to hear some solutions.
  198. # [00:42] <Bert> James: Any wide content will have that problem.
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  201. # [00:42] <Bert> ... Part of the issue, as opposed to columns, is that the columsn here have a meaning.
  202. # [00:43] <fantasai> s/columns/multicol/
  203. # [00:43] <Bert> Cynthia: related issue, indeed.
  204. # [00:43] <Bert> cynthia: somethign to think about over a beer...
  205. # [00:43] <Bert> MichaelC: Next issue:
  206. # [00:44] <Bert> ... Can font-size refer to MQ?
  207. # [00:44] <Bert> s/refer/be part of/
  208. # [00:44] <Bert> dbaron: MQ happens before style sheet, so the em is always the users' default font size.
  209. # [00:45] <Bert> ... So it is easy to query the user's font size.
  210. # [00:45] <Bert> ... You can query for exact value or a range.
  211. # [00:45] <Bert> fantasai: You can ask how many ems fit on the screen.
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  214. # [00:46] <Bert> dbaron: You can query across units, but hard.
  215. # [00:46] <Bert> ... Many Web pages don't render unless font is 16px, but that is differne tissue.
  216. # [00:46] * Quits: anne (annevk@63.145.238.4) (Quit: anne)
  217. # [00:46] <Bert> fantasai: What is the use case for querying th efont size, and not the siz eof the screen?
  218. # [00:47] <Bert> MichaelC: Can make thimngs relative to a base font size.
  219. # [00:47] <Bert> ... Authors typically make font smaller.
  220. # [00:47] <Bert> ... A base font size that authors wouldn't need to scale down.
  221. # [00:47] <Bert> dbaron: that is history.
  222. # [00:48] * Joins: mollydotcom (mollyh@63.145.238.4)
  223. # [00:48] <Bert> fantasai: Designers indeed lower font-size. No automatic way out of that.
  224. # [00:48] <Bert> ... But rem unit (font size of root element) can soon be used everywhere.
  225. # [00:49] <dbaron_> s/easy to query the user's font size/easy to use the user's font size as part of queries, but hard to actually query for it directly/
  226. # [00:49] <Bert> ... Author can override it, but user can then scale without breaking the design.
  227. # [00:49] * Joins: Stevef (chatzilla@63.145.238.4)
  228. # [00:49] <Bert> James: You can use that in a media query? Check screen vs rem?
  229. # [00:50] <Bert> fantasai: Yes. You cannot find out what the rem is in terms of px, but can find out how many rem per screen.
  230. # [00:50] * Joins: anne (annevk@63.145.238.4)
  231. # [00:50] <Bert> ... You don't have the px value, but you can use the rem and don't need the px.
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  234. # [00:51] <Bert> RichS: Can MQ dynamically change the style on the page?
  235. # [00:51] <Stevef> tcelik: Responsive Data Tables http://css-tricks.com/9096-responsive-data-tables/
  236. # [00:51] <Stevef> related accessibility article http://www.accessibleculture.org/articles/2011/08/responsive-data-tables-and-screen-reader-accessibility/
  237. # [00:51] <Bert> dbraon: yes, dynamic. If user resizes window, style changes.
  238. # [00:51] <Bert> RichS: Might want to have on mobile som eway to add captioning base don environment.
  239. # [00:51] <Bert> ... Would that be MQ, or an API?
  240. # [00:52] <Bert> Tab: MQ is preferred, can then still do it from JS as well.
  241. # [00:52] <dbaron_> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom-view/#dom-window-matchmedia http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom-view/#the-mediaquerylist-interface
  242. # [00:52] <Bert> MichaelC: Last issue on our list:
  243. # [00:52] * Quits: mollydotcom (mollyh@63.145.238.4) (Quit: mollydotcom)
  244. # [00:52] <Bert> ... Positioning module.
  245. # [00:52] <Bert> fantasai: We have mutliple modules about that.
  246. # [00:53] <Bert> arronei: Discussed a module with abs. pos and anslo centering, will publish soon.
  247. # [00:53] * dbaron_ is now known as dbaron
  248. # [00:54] <Bert> fantasai: We have several related modules.
  249. # [00:54] <Bert> ... We will intergate requirements as appropriate, if you can give them to us.
  250. # [00:54] <Bert> MichaelC: We'll take an action item.
  251. # [00:54] <Bert> fantasai: This is the right time for those.
  252. # [00:54] <MichaelC> PFWG-ACTION-930
  253. # [00:55] <Bert> MichaelC: Next issue: multi-col
  254. # [00:55] <fantasai> fantasai: as they're mostly in the brainstorming/design/exploring stages
  255. # [00:55] <Bert> ... It is very positive for accessibility.
  256. # [00:55] <Bert> ... Does it only waork in paged media?
  257. # [00:55] <Bert> fantasai: It works also in continuous media, but not so well.
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  260. # [00:56] <Bert> ... Need to fix the height and have it overflow to the right.
  261. # [00:56] <Bert> ... Howcome has a demo for that.
  262. # [00:56] * Parts: howard (howard_wan@63.145.238.4)
  263. # [00:57] <Bert> howcome: Wikipedia has references in two columns, and th reading order doesn;t matetr, so columns without fixed height are fine.
  264. # [00:57] <fantasai> fantasai^: that's the only way to really have it work well in scrolling media, but you can also have a paged presentation on a screen
  265. # [00:57] <Bert> MichaelC: So work is ongoing. Any action?
  266. # [00:58] <Bert> TabL working on ways to fix it now, such as paging.
  267. # [00:58] <fantasai> fantasai: If you have any suggestion on how to make it work better for continuous media, we'd be happy to consider for L2
  268. # [00:58] <Bert> MichaelC: control of styling of form controls.
  269. # [00:58] <Bert> ... Because authors too often replace the control with script.
  270. # [00:58] <Bert> janina: Often you find you can fill out a form, but cannot submit...
  271. # [00:59] <Bert> Tab: Too much differnece between devices and UAs. Difficult to specify what you can style.
  272. # [00:59] <fantasai> dbaron^: short answer to that is, we know, and it's a lot of work
  273. # [00:59] <Bert> ... Would love to do it. Tantek has it on his list.
  274. # [01:00] <Bert> Tantek: If you have specific example, please send them to me.
  275. # [01:00] <Bert> James: We have a spec, ARIA.
  276. # [01:00] <Bert> Tantek: Web authors often make their forms less accessible with certain libraries they use. I want to find out why they use those.
  277. # [01:01] <Bert> ... In some case the libraries themselves can be updated, with ARIA.
  278. # [01:01] <Bert> .. So multiple strategies.
  279. # [01:01] <Bert> s/.. /... /
  280. # [01:01] <Bert> ... I can use help.
  281. # [01:01] <fantasai> collecting examples
  282. # [01:01] <Bert> James: HTML5 allows some more than before.
  283. # [01:01] <Bert> MichaelC: My last one today:
  284. # [01:02] <Bert> ... Mouse cursor vs resolution.
  285. # [01:02] <Bert> ... OS often have different variants.
  286. # [01:02] <Bert> Tab: UI module says to size to OS default.
  287. # [01:02] <Bert> ... Works great with SVG image.
  288. # [01:03] <Stevef> tcelik: WAI-ARIA Implementation in JavaScript UI Libraries (2009) http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2009/07/wai-aria-implementation-in-javascript-ui-libraries/
  289. # [01:03] <Bert> Tantek: You can use multiple urls for a cursor.
  290. # [01:03] <Bert> ... But not so precise as to which is used.
  291. # [01:03] <Bert> ... What wording can we put in there?
  292. # [01:03] <fantasai> s/default/default if there is no intrinsic size/
  293. # [01:03] * Quits: vhardy (vhardy@192.150.10.200) (Connection reset by peer)
  294. # [01:03] <Bert> MichaelC: We can probably come up with wording together.
  295. # [01:04] <Bert> James: SVG works on some. Didn't scale on windows.
  296. # [01:04] <Bert> dbaron: Tantek's suggestion seems too magical.
  297. # [01:05] <Bert> ... We have proeprties that take images and say to take the first you can handle.
  298. # [01:05] <Bert> ... That is clear, but this complicates it.
  299. # [01:05] <Bert> Tantek: May also define a new cursor format with multiple resolutions.
  300. # [01:05] <Bert> [several: therte is such a format]
  301. # [01:05] <fantasai> .ico
  302. # [01:06] <Bert> Tab: Image Value spec has default object resolution text.
  303. # [01:06] <Bert> ... Handles mutli-resolution images.
  304. # [01:06] * ed notes that svg + mediaqueries would also work for selecting different raster- or vectorimages for a particular resolution
  305. # [01:06] <Bert> James: I will take an action.
  306. # [01:06] <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-images/#sizing
  307. # [01:06] * ed that is, media-queries inside the svg file
  308. # [01:06] <dbaron> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-images/#default-sizing
  309. # [01:07] <MichaelC> PFWG-ACTION-931
  310. # [01:07] <Bert> fantasai: [looking at MichaelC 's other issues]
  311. # [01:07] <Bert> ... can use MQ for most.
  312. # [01:08] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@63.145.238.4) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  313. # [01:08] <Bert> Janina: Any other issues?
  314. # [01:08] <fantasai> fantasai: resolution variations can be done manually with @media
  315. # [01:08] <Bert> Tab: The generated content one.
  316. # [01:08] <fantasai> fantasai: high-contrast would be solved the same way once we have user queries
  317. # [01:08] * Quits: Stevef (chatzilla@63.145.238.4) (Ping timeout)
  318. # [01:09] <Bert> Steve: Concern was: text generated looks on screen as content. Mixing presentation and content.
  319. # [01:09] <Bert> ... It is read aloud.
  320. # [01:09] * Quits: duga (duga@63.145.238.4) (Quit: duga)
  321. # [01:10] <Bert> ... No alternative tetx for a bg image on :after.
  322. # [01:10] <Bert> ... I have asked some people in CSS WG already.
  323. # [01:10] <Bert> ... I have concern about how it is processed in browsers.
  324. # [01:10] <Bert> James: can use attr()
  325. # [01:11] <Bert> ... Othe rissue with CSS speech. Not want to speak the generated text.
  326. # [01:11] <Bert> ... ARIA required attribute can trigger a background.
  327. # [01:11] <fantasai> ... Can use CSS Speech 'speak: none' to hide generated content you don't wnat spoken
  328. # [01:11] * Quits: ChrisWilson (ChrisWilso@216.239.45.4) (Quit: Leaving.)
  329. # [01:12] <Bert> ... If it looks like an asterisk on screen, can you make it render as something else in speech?
  330. # [01:12] <Bert> fantasai: Render ot another canvas, model is that you pick up generated content in speech stream but not background images.
  331. # [01:13] * Quits: r12a (rishida@128.30.52.169) (Quit: r12a)
  332. # [01:13] <Bert> .. Can speak: none to turn it off.
  333. # [01:13] <Bert> s/../.../
  334. # [01:13] <Bert> ... Can use css speech to add visual icons.
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  336. # [01:13] <Bert> ... The model we have for somebody to access a doc via speech is not to use the DOM, but to read the audio canvas.
  337. # [01:14] <Bert> James: One of my concerns is that Speech is very focused to books, think DAISY, nbot so much screen readers.
  338. # [01:14] <Bert> Cynthia: list numbers is an example. Many screne readers do that wrong right now.
  339. # [01:15] <Bert> fantasai: There is an example in the Speech module.
  340. # [01:15] <Bert> ... I will help Tab to add it to CSS Lists moduele.
  341. # [01:15] <Bert> ... Expectation is to be able to read those markers.
  342. # [01:15] <Bert> dbaron: Lot of browser bugs, but also misuse of generated content.
  343. # [01:15] <Bert> ... It shouldn't be used for essential things.
  344. # [01:16] * Quits: r12a (rishida@128.30.52.169) (Quit: r12a)
  345. # [01:16] <Bert> ... Not entirely happy with how list numbers work.
  346. # [01:16] <Bert> Tab: Things like adding a PDF logo before PDF links.
  347. # [01:16] <Bert> ... Is that decaoative? It is informative.
  348. # [01:17] <Bert> ... It is usefully exposed.
  349. # [01:17] <Bert> fantasai: Use the content property, with both a url and a string.
  350. # [01:17] <Bert> Janina: We should deal with favicon better.
  351. # [01:18] <fantasai> [href$=".pdf"]::after { content: url(PDF.png), "[PDF]"; }
  352. # [01:18] <Bert> ... The Apache icons for different types of files?
  353. # [01:19] <Bert> ... Seems a similar case.
  354. # [01:19] <Bert> ... You can extend that in the Apache config, maybe in other systems, too.
  355. # [01:19] <Bert> Tab: That is outside of CSS.
  356. # [01:19] <Bert> fantasai: Browser knows the media type.
  357. # [01:19] <Bert> ... Could present that.
  358. # [01:19] <Bert> ... That is not the favicon.
  359. # [01:20] <Bert> dbaron: Browser doens;t have the media type until it fetches it.
  360. # [01:20] <Bert> James: You mean the default index in Apache, Janina?
  361. # [01:20] <Bert> Janina: yes.
  362. # [01:21] <Bert> MichaelC: Need we follow up on generated content later?
  363. # [01:21] <Bert> James: An action for me to check the content proeprty with text fallback.
  364. # [01:21] <Bert> s/proeprty/property/
  365. # [01:22] <MichaelC> PFWG-ACTION-932
  366. # [01:22] <Bert> MichaelC: We're done.
  367. # [01:22] <Bert> Janina: to be continued :-)
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  385. # [01:30] <Bert> Topic: Multi-col
  386. # [01:31] <Bert> howcome: Longstanding issue.
  387. # [01:31] <Bert> ... Didn't get feedback from designers.
  388. # [01:31] * Joins: smfr (smfr@63.145.238.4)
  389. # [01:31] <Bert> ... Should two spanners collapse margins?
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  394. # [01:32] <Bert> ... Difference in collapsing, floats continuing in next spanner, and block formatting context.
  395. # [01:33] <Bert> Florian: IE does one, we don another.
  396. # [01:33] <Bert> Alex: Both options a and b make sense, not c.
  397. # [01:33] <Bert> fantasai: They all make sense.
  398. # [01:33] <Bert> howcome: may need to go to LC again.
  399. # [01:34] <Bert> .. If Alex is OK, let's do A.
  400. # [01:34] <Bert> s/../.../
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  402. # [01:34] <Bert> [fantasai draw on whiteboard]
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  404. # [01:35] <Bert> fantasai: If spanners span different # of columns,
  405. # [01:35] <Bert> ... you get option a.
  406. # [01:35] <Bert> ... If they have same # of columns, you get different layout.
  407. # [01:36] <Bert> ... c is like in single-column layout.
  408. # [01:36] <Bert> ... Most natural.
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  411. # [01:36] <Bert> ... b is like a special kind of BFC, different from others.
  412. # [01:37] * fantasai tantek, can you post a photo of the flipchart into the minutes, please?
  413. # [01:37] * fantasai is not technologically advanced enough to do this
  414. # [01:37] <dbaron> (Is anyone actually talking about column-spanning elements that span some number of columns other than all? If so, scary.)
  415. # [01:37] <Bert> Alex: If these spanning elts were floats,
  416. # [01:37] <Bert> ... would they collapse?
  417. # [01:38] <Bert> ... They should behave like floats, not collapse.
  418. # [01:38] <Bert> Florian: It is a corner case.
  419. # [01:38] <Bert> fantasai: Dont' think so.
  420. # [01:38] <Bert> ... But floats inside them is.
  421. # [01:39] <Bert> Alan: Article title followed by section title, I dont' want things to collapse.
  422. # [01:39] <Bert> fantasai: But if it is a single col, it collapses.
  423. # [01:39] <Bert> Brad: [missed]
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  426. # [01:40] <tcelik> fantasai - the current flipchart?
  427. # [01:40] <Bert> Alex: I want spanners to be like something else, not something new.
  428. # [01:40] * sylvaing fantasai!? even I am technical enough to do this!
  429. # [01:40] <Bert> ... which is like BFC in normal flow?
  430. # [01:41] <Bert> Alex: Make them behave like in normal flow.
  431. # [01:41] <Bert> fantasai: BFC doesn't collapse with its children.
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  434. # [01:42] <Bert> howcome: strawpoll?
  435. # [01:42] <Bert> PeterL: Can't decide now.
  436. # [01:42] * fantasai thinks sylvaing's twitter skills are considerable, who is he kidding
  437. # [01:42] <Bert> Topic: Variables (cont'd)
  438. # [01:43] <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
  439. # [01:43] <fantasai> TabAtkins: cyclic dependencies - easy to resolve
  440. # [01:43] <fantasai> TabAtkins: shows example 4:
  441. # [01:43] * Joins: tpod (tpod@63.145.238.4)
  442. # [01:44] <tpod> http://instagr.am/p/SZJjj/ cc: fantasai
  443. # [01:44] <fantasai> TabAtkins: We can detect this cyclic dependency easily at computed value time, and we resolve these to all initial value
  444. # [01:44] <fantasai> TabAtkins: both variables result in initial value in all places they are used
  445. # [01:44] <fantasai> :root {
  446. # [01:44] <fantasai> data-one: calc(datatwo) + 20px)
  447. # [01:44] * Quits: myakura (myakura@209.119.68.98) (Connection reset by peer)
  448. # [01:44] <fantasai> data-two: calc(data(one) - 20px)
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  451. # [01:45] <fantasai> Bert asks questions
  452. # [01:45] * Joins: Rossen (Rossen@63.145.238.4)
  453. # [01:45] <fantasai> TabAtkins: They're calculated on the element at computed value time
  454. # [01:46] * fantasai is getting confused with all the cycle
  455. # [01:46] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Var cycles are resolved at computed value time. Inheritance happens after computing.
  456. # [01:46] <fantasai> TabAtkins: There's an example below where something that looks cyclic isn't because of this detail
  457. # [01:46] <fantasai> TabAtkins shows example 5
  458. # [01:46] <fantasai> TabAtkins: <one><two><three/></two></one>
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  461. # [01:47] <fantasai> one { data-foo: 10px; }
  462. # [01:47] <fantasai> two { data-bar: calc(data(foo) + 10px; }
  463. # [01:47] <fantasai> three { data-foo: calc(data(bar) + 10px); }
  464. # [01:47] <fantasai> TabAtkins: two resolves easily from the inherited 10px
  465. # [01:48] <fantasai> TabAtkins: three is defined to use bar, but the value it sees is the successfully computed 20px.
  466. # [01:48] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Cyclic dependencies only occur when variables on same element have cycles.
  467. # [01:48] <fantasai> Markus: If you accidentally do this, how do you know?
  468. # [01:49] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Web Inspector can provide that info to the author.
  469. # [01:49] <fantasai> fantasai: You can search for all data-* properties that compute to 'initial'
  470. # [01:49] <dbaron> we could in theory even provide a console warning
  471. # [01:49] <Bert> s/Bert asks questions/Bert: Isn't the property evaluated when it iused, ratherathen when it is declared?/
  472. # [01:50] <fantasai> Alan: What if data-foo is a color?
  473. # [01:50] <fantasai> TabAtkins: bar won't be invalid except at the point where it's used.
  474. # [01:50] <fantasai> plinss ask about resolution
  475. # [01:50] <dbaron> fantasai, it shouldn't compute to initial, since an invalid data property needs to make the property using it (which may not use it as a *whole*) get its initial value
  476. # [01:51] * Quits: tcelik (tantek_@63.145.238.4) (Quit: tcelik)
  477. # [01:51] <fantasai> TabAtkins: The data variables are treated as a stream of tokens, except for data substitution, until they're used
  478. # [01:51] <fantasai> dbaron, that resolves itself
  479. # [01:52] <fantasai> dbaron, it'll either be the entire value of the property, in which case that property gets initial
  480. # [01:52] <fantasai> dbaron, or it won't be valid because it's not the entire value of the property, in which case that property gets initial
  481. # [01:52] <fantasai> dbaron, either way you get initial :)
  482. # [01:52] <dbaron> fantasai, initial as a keyword is valid within font-family
  483. # [01:52] <fantasai> dbaron, not in a list iirc
  484. # [01:52] <dbaron> fantasai, yes
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  487. # [01:53] <fantasai> John may have reservations about substituting variables within other data properties
  488. # [01:53] <fantasai> howcome: If you wanted a variable that equalled 10% on this element, you couldn't do that.
  489. # [01:53] <fantasai> TabAtkins: no
  490. # [01:53] * Joins: arno (arno@63.145.238.4)
  491. # [01:54] <fantasai> TabAtkins: that would require more plumbing to make it work
  492. # [01:54] <fantasai> howcome: Don't think it's a req, just want to understand the model.
  493. # [01:54] <fantasai> dbaron: "The keywords 'initial' and 'default' are reserved for future use and must also be quoted when used as font names. UAs must not consider these keywords as matching the '<family-name>' type. "
  494. # [01:55] <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/fonts.html
  495. # [01:55] <fantasai> howcome: Do you think there will be lots of invalid values? You go back to initial.
  496. # [01:55] <dbaron> fantasai, "as" != "in"
  497. # [01:55] <fantasai> TabAtkins: You will usually not run into this problem, because ...
  498. # [01:56] <fantasai> TabAtkins: You cannot resolve the data type of a data property at parse time
  499. # [01:56] <fantasai> TabAtkins: There are places where a particular token can masquerade as idfferent things depending on the context it's used
  500. # [01:56] <fantasai> TabAtkins: If you use 'red' in color, it becomes a color. If you use it in list-style, it's treated as a counter name
  501. # [01:57] <fantasai> jdaggett: so you have to do 2 parsing steps
  502. # [01:57] <fantasai> TabAtkins: In most cases, no.
  503. # [01:57] <fantasai> jdaggett: Your processing model doesn't make sense to me.
  504. # [01:57] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I'm pretty sure it works
  505. # [01:57] <dbaron> It makes sense to me.
  506. # [01:57] <fantasai> jdaggett: Not clear to me when exactly these values are calculated
  507. # [01:57] <dbaron> You parse it into a token stream
  508. # [01:57] <dbaron> and handle any tokens that are the "data(" function
  509. # [01:58] <dbaron> and then save the token stream
  510. # [01:58] <dbaron> IMO, anyway
  511. # [01:58] * Quits: glazou (glazou@63.145.238.4) (Quit: glazou)
  512. # [01:58] <fantasai> jdaggett: What dbaron said makes sense. What Tab says makes no sense...
  513. # [01:59] <fantasai> TabAtkins: you can also optimize by storing the parsed (not just tokenized) version for reuse in the same context
  514. # [01:59] <fantasai> fantasai: That's an additional optmiziation
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  517. # [01:59] * dbaron wonders how much longer CSS is going and whether it's worth walking back over
  518. # [01:59] <fantasai> Rosen: What if I have data-foo: inherit?
  519. # [02:00] <Bert> (So this requires that calc() is defined in Values and Units so that calc() can be used inside calc().)
  520. # [02:00] <fantasai> arronei: in this case it would be invalid
  521. # [02:00] <plinss> until 6pm
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  524. # [02:00] <fantasai> TabAtkins: ...
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  526. # [02:00] <fantasai> Rossen: More natural way to me would be to have it on your parent.
  527. # [02:00] <fantasai> Rossen: similar wya to look at it is as inherit
  528. # [02:00] <fantasai> jdaggett: Flip side is you can never make a variable carry 'inherit'
  529. # [02:00] <fantasai> jdaggett: The keyword has special meaning
  530. # [02:01] * Quits: jeff (Jeff@mcclure.w3.org) (Quit: Leaving)
  531. # [02:01] <fantasai> Florian: I'd like to point out that this is the first time everyone in the room is arguing over details of a variables proposal and not everyone is arguing against having it
  532. # [02:02] <fantasai> TabAtkins explains the transformation from 'data-foo' to 'foo' inside data()
  533. # [02:02] <fantasai> discussion about property/value syntax
  534. # [02:02] <fantasai> plinss: I strongly feel they should be consistent on both sides, not different when defining vs referencing
  535. # [02:02] <fantasai> jdaggett: It looks too much like a property. Should look different.
  536. # [02:03] <fantasai> plinss: Prefer parentheses approacl
  537. # [02:03] <fantasai> data(foo): red;
  538. # [02:03] <shans> peter's proposed syntax is to do something like one { data(foo): 10px; }
  539. # [02:03] <shans> two { data(bar): calc(data(foo) + 10px); }
  540. # [02:03] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Either way, I'm cool with having discussions about syntax of it later, as long as we're cool on the processing model.
  541. # [02:03] <fantasai> howcome: Can this mechanism be abused for prefixed properties?
  542. # [02:04] <fantasai> fantasai: I think this would be difficult
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  544. # [02:04] <fantasai> howcome: what if ua's did special things with certain variable names?
  545. # [02:04] <fantasai> TabAtkins: That would violate the spec
  546. # [02:04] <fantasai> plinss: Make sure you explicitly forbid it
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  549. # [02:04] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I defined explicitly that these are non-special, can wordsmith later if necessary
  550. # [02:04] <fantasai> plinss: Just about out of time.
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  552. # [02:05] <fantasai> plinss: I like the fact that this model fits the CSS way of doing things
  553. # [02:05] <fantasai> plinss: And not creating another weird variables model
  554. # [02:05] <fantasai> plinss: I think this is going to be harder to explain to people
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  556. # [02:05] <fantasai> plinss: People don't really understand the cascade
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  558. # [02:05] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Most of my example are setting variables on the root, and I plan to add notes "just set it on root, don't think about it anymore"
  559. # [02:05] <fantasai> plinss: And don't set it on *
  560. # [02:07] <fantasai> fantasai: I remember getting a proposal for a variables-type thing that, very similar to this, used cascading/inheritance.
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  562. # [02:07] <fantasai> fantasai: Person was very clear that s/he wanted inheritance behavior of the variables.
  563. # [02:07] <fantasai> alexmog: How do you undefine a variable?
  564. # [02:07] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Could set it to 'initial'
  565. # [02:08] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Alternatively, set it to itself. That'll create an immediate cycle.
  566. # [02:08] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Can I publish this?
  567. # [02:08] <fantasai> plinss: Think there should be other people to decide for FPWD, but editor's draft should be ok.
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  569. # [02:08] <fantasai> Markus: It's on dev.w3.org, it's already an editor's draft.
  570. # [02:09] <fantasai> TabAtkins: But now I can talk about it, that the CSSWG has an editor's variables draft
  571. # [02:09] <dbaron> [Daniel and I are debating another variables issue in the back of the AC meeting room, on the assumption that you were going to end 4 minutes ago]
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  573. # [02:09] <fantasai> howcome asks for confirmation that this is *the* variables draft
  574. # [02:09] <fantasai> Yes
  575. # [02:09] <fantasai> plinss: FXTF on Thursday
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  577. # [02:10] <fantasai> Meeting closed.
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  810. # [17:10] <antonp> Is there a call today? I guess everyone's at TPAC
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  814. # [17:11] <hober> antonp: no call today, no call next week
  815. # [17:11] <antonp> ok, tx
  816. # [17:12] <hober> np
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  928. # [19:27] <anne> https://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/anolis
  929. # [19:28] <Ms2ger> Hi
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  932. # [19:28] <anne> https://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/anolis
  933. # [19:28] <anne> "hg clone https://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/specification-data data"
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  939. # [19:30] <anne> hey Ms2ger
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  941. # [19:30] <shans> https://bitbucket.org/shans/cssom
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  966. # [20:15] <anne> https://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/dom-core
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  1039. # [21:54] * Quits: paul_irish (paul_irish@32.158.154.179) (Client exited)
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  1101. # [22:53] * Quits: drublic (drublic@77.2.147.143) (Client exited)
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  1150. # Session Close: Thu Nov 03 00:00:00 2011

The end :)