/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2011-11-16 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Nov 16 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  5. # [00:09] <fantasai> TabAtkins: ping
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  8. # [00:10] <TabAtkins> fantasai: pong
  9. # [00:11] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I'm rewriting the image-resolution section to talk about setting an "intrinsic resolution" rather than saying the UA must render the image at a particular resolution
  10. # [00:11] <fantasai> TabAtkins: because the latter definition is wrong if the image isn't sized intrinsically
  11. # [00:11] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Just giving you a heads up
  12. # [00:11] <TabAtkins> Hm, you're right.
  13. # [00:11] <TabAtkins> Kk.
  14. # [00:12] <TabAtkins> I'm just working on examples right now, so we should merge fine.
  15. # [00:13] <fantasai> TabAtkins: ok, well, you can look at making the image-resolution examples more coherent then :)
  16. # [00:13] <TabAtkins> Will do!
  17. # [00:13] <TabAtkins> Should we request a WD this week?
  18. # [00:14] <fantasai> I'd like to! But I haven't finished reviewing the draft yet
  19. # [00:14] <fantasai> so I think next week would be more realistic
  20. # [00:15] <TabAtkins> Ok. We can wait until next week if necessary.
  21. # [00:15] <fantasai> we still have to get this gradient syntax issue sorted
  22. # [00:15] <TabAtkins> I'm already past the "CR as xmas present" point. ;_;
  23. # [00:15] <TabAtkins> Why does everyone hate giving me presents?
  24. # [00:15] <fantasai> LC as xmas present is almost as good :)
  25. # [00:15] <fantasai> I have a good track record on LCs getting to CR without further ado
  26. # [00:15] <fantasai> ;)
  27. # [00:15] <TabAtkins> Excellent.
  28. # [00:16] <fantasai> which is why I'm reviewing the draft so carefully now XDD
  29. # [00:16] <TabAtkins> Yay!
  30. # [00:16] <TabAtkins> Fantasai: best co-editor, or bestestest co-editor?
  31. # [00:16] <fantasai> the most stressed-out co-editor, unfortunately :(
  32. # [00:17] <TabAtkins> ;_;
  33. # [00:20] <fantasai> oh, checked in btw
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  53. # [00:50] <TabAtkins> fantasai: How were you planning on doing so? Desktop browsers never rotate the image based on EXIF, so we'd have to add a keyword to handle it.
  54. # [00:50] <TabAtkins> fantasai: I agree with doing so (was going to add it in level 4), just curious.
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  76. # [04:57] <fantasai> TabAtkins: add a new value, have the printers set it in the default stylesheet for their templates
  77. # [04:57] <fantasai> TabAtkins: If we're sure we want it, how about we just toss in the 'from-image' value now and mark it at-risk?
  78. # [04:58] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Honestly I believe this property belongs in HTML, not in CSS. It's a cotent fix.
  79. # [04:58] <fantasai> TabAtkins: We can't toss it because it's implemented in printers, and part of the MIPC standard
  80. # [04:58] <fantasai> TabAtkins: But for the Web platform, I think it belongs more in the HTML than the CSS.
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  118. # [17:39] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/11/16-css-irc
  119. # [17:39] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
  120. # [17:39] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 27 minutes
  121. # [17:39] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
  122. # [17:39] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
  123. # [17:42] * nimbupani is stalking from W3Conf
  124. # [17:42] * nimbupani is now known as divya
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  128. # [17:46] <tantek> nimbupani, you should hang out here more often ;)
  129. # [17:46] <divya> tantek: hahaha I doo, you dont :P
  130. # [17:46] <tantek> lol
  131. # [17:47] <glazou> hey divya, will you have high heels for next css wg ftf too ? :-)
  132. # [17:47] * Joins: paul_iri_ (paul_irish@12.1.203.2)
  133. # [17:48] <divya> glazou: as long as it is in paris and I am going to be there.
  134. # [17:48] * Quits: paul_irish (paul_irish@12.1.203.2) (Connection reset by peer)
  135. # [17:48] <glazou> that's a deal
  136. # [17:48] <glazou> if you do that, I'll wear a tie
  137. # [17:48] <divya> hahahah DONE
  138. # [17:49] <glazou> :)
  139. # [17:49] <divya> now to convince chaals
  140. # [17:49] <divya> WAY TO GO glazou!!
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  151. # [18:02] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  152. # [18:02] <Zakim> +??P19
  153. # [18:02] <Zakim> -??P19
  154. # [18:02] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  155. # [18:02] <Zakim> Attendees were
  156. # [18:02] * Joins: danielweck (danielweck@86.158.25.39)
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  158. # [18:03] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  159. # [18:03] <Zakim> +??P41
  160. # [18:03] <glazou> Zakim, ??P41 is me
  161. # [18:03] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
  162. # [18:03] * Joins: shepazu (shepazu@128.30.52.169)
  163. # [18:04] * Joins: dsinger_ (dsinger@66.109.105.76)
  164. # [18:05] <Zakim> + +1.215.286.aaaa
  165. # [18:05] <Zakim> +plinss
  166. # [18:05] <kimberly> Zakim, aaaa is me
  167. # [18:05] <Zakim> +kimberly; got it
  168. # [18:05] * Joins: antonp (50a94e63@78.129.202.38)
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  171. # [18:05] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  172. # [18:06] <Zakim> + +1.408.543.aabb
  173. # [18:06] <Zakim> + +93550aacc
  174. # [18:06] <antonp> Zakim, aacc is me
  175. # [18:06] <Zakim> +antonp; got it
  176. # [18:06] * Joins: JohnJan (johnjan@131.107.0.86)
  177. # [18:07] <Zakim> +??P66
  178. # [18:07] <florian> Zakim, I am ??P66
  179. # [18:07] <Zakim> +florian; got it
  180. # [18:07] * Quits: JohnJan (johnjan@131.107.0.86) (Quit: JohnJan)
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  184. # [18:08] <Zakim> + +1.650.275.aadd
  185. # [18:08] * Joins: JohnJan (johnjan@131.107.0.86)
  186. # [18:08] <bradk> Zakim, aadd is me
  187. # [18:08] <JohnJan> Zakim, microsoft has me
  188. # [18:08] <Zakim> +bradk; got it
  189. # [18:09] <Zakim> +JohnJan; got it
  190. # [18:09] <Zakim> + +1.408.636.aaee
  191. # [18:09] <smfr> Zakim, aaee is me
  192. # [18:09] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  193. # [18:09] <fantasai> zakim, who is here?
  194. # [18:09] * Joins: ksweeney (ksweeney@63.119.10.10)
  195. # [18:09] * fantasai is on skype
  196. # [18:09] <Zakim> +??P63
  197. # [18:09] <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
  198. # [18:09] <Zakim> +smfr; got it
  199. # [18:09] <danielweck> Zakim, ??P63 is me
  200. # [18:09] * Joins: ericm (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  201. # [18:10] <Zakim> On the phone I see glazou, kimberly, plinss, [Microsoft], +1.408.543.aabb, antonp, florian, bradk, smfr, [IPcaller], ??P63
  202. # [18:10] * Joins: tabatkins_ (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  203. # [18:10] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has JohnJan
  204. # [18:10] <Zakim> +??P79
  205. # [18:10] <Zakim> +danielweck; got it
  206. # [18:10] <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [IPcaller] (75%), plinss (5%)
  207. # [18:10] <Zakim> + +47.21.65.aaff
  208. # [18:10] <glazou> Zakim, mute [IPcaller]
  209. # [18:10] <danielweck> Zakim, why are you slow today?
  210. # [18:10] <Zakim> On IRC I see ericm, ksweeney, JohnJan, florian, smfr, bradk, antonp, dsinger_, shepazu, kimberly, danielweck, nimbupani, paul_iri_, stearns, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, tantek, lhnz,
  211. # [18:10] <Zakim> ... myakura, dglazkov, kojiishi, miketaylr, arronei, drublic, dcosta, karl, brianman, anne, plinss, TabAtkins, danbeam__, hober, dholbert, fantasai, gsnedders, krijnh, Hixie,
  212. # [18:10] <Zakim> ... trackbot, CSSWG_LogBot, pjrm, Bert, ed
  213. # [18:10] <Zakim> +Bert
  214. # [18:10] <glazou> Zakim is probably attending #w3conf ?
  215. # [18:10] * tantek is at #w3conf and not going to be on the call.
  216. # [18:11] <Zakim> [IPcaller] should now be muted
  217. # [18:11] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, danielweck.
  218. # [18:11] <danielweck> no problems Zakim.
  219. # [18:11] <tantek> Zakim, tantek is Tantek Çelik
  220. # [18:11] <Zakim> + +1.281.305.aagg
  221. # [18:11] <Zakim> I don't understand 'tantek is Tantek Çelik', tantek
  222. # [18:11] * paul_iri_ is now known as paul_irish
  223. # [18:11] <tabatkins_> Zakim, aagg is me
  224. # [18:11] <glazou> Zakim, unmute [IPcaller]
  225. # [18:11] <Zakim> +tabatkins_; got it
  226. # [18:11] <Zakim> [IPcaller] should no longer be muted
  227. # [18:12] * florian is wondering if nobody is typing anything, or if my irc client is buggy
  228. # [18:12] <glazou> there is a lot of echo
  229. # [18:12] <tabatkins_> scribe: TabAtkins_
  230. # [18:12] * Parts: florian (florianr@84.215.140.129)
  231. # [18:12] * Joins: florian (florianr@84.215.140.129)
  232. # [18:12] <tabatkins_> scribenick: TabAtkins_
  233. # [18:12] <smfr> everyone mute!
  234. # [18:12] <Bert> zakim, who is making noise?
  235. # [18:12] <Zakim> Bert, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou (20%), plinss (29%)
  236. # [18:13] <tabatkins_> Daniel: We're meeting at the Paris f2f next year.
  237. # [18:13] * Joins: oyvind (oyvinds@213.236.208.22)
  238. # [18:13] <tabatkins_> Daniel: The org that offered hosting, to thank them we could organize a CSSWG meeting with the community there.
  239. # [18:13] * Joins: brianman_ (brianman@67.170.96.162)
  240. # [18:13] <tabatkins_> Daniel: The W3C has a history of organizing meetups there.
  241. # [18:13] <tabatkins_> Daniel: These are usually popular and *packed*.
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  244. # [18:14] <tabatkins_> Daniel: We could have a short preso from each vendor, and a Q&A session with the community.
  245. # [18:14] <tabatkins_> Daniel: Since I"m hosting the Tuesday social dinner, I think it could be cool to do it on Monday or Wed, 7-9.
  246. # [18:14] <tabatkins_> Daniel: And participation from the french-speaking members of each org woudl be appreciated.
  247. # [18:15] <tabatkins_> florian: It means I have to prepare something, but otherwise a good idea.
  248. # [18:15] <tabatkins_> florian: Do you think it's reasonable to get the Qs in english, or translate on the fly?
  249. # [18:15] <tabatkins_> glazou: I think most of the audience will be french.
  250. # [18:16] <tabatkins_> tabatkins_: But Google doesn't have a french speaker on the WG, for example.
  251. # [18:16] <tabatkins_> glazou: Oh, yeah, doing the Qs and As in English is fine, and we can translate on the fly if someone can't ask their question in Englihs.
  252. # [18:16] * fantasai suggests Wednesday, nice way to close the meeting
  253. # [18:17] <tabatkins_> [no objections, several people explicitly saying it's good]
  254. # [18:17] <tabatkins_> plinss: Daniel, can you give some hotel suggestions?
  255. # [18:17] <tabatkins_> glazou: I visited the offices, and have several locations selected. I'll send them as soon as possible.
  256. # [18:17] * kimberly thinks Wednesday is good, because it means an extra day in Paris :)
  257. # [18:17] <glazou> ok :)
  258. # [18:17] <glazou> noted kimberly
  259. # [18:18] <tabatkins_> RESOLVED: Do a meeting with the french community after-hours during the France f2f.
  260. # [18:18] * Bert plans to take not one, but several days extra in Paris :-)
  261. # [18:18] <tabatkins_> plinss: Sylvain wanted to talk about module statuses, etc. at the f2f. We have time now.
  262. # [18:18] <glazou> Bert: slacker ;-)
  263. # [18:18] <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/current-work
  264. # [18:19] <tabatkins_> plinss: So what's ready to advance?
  265. # [18:19] <tabatkins_> plinss: MQ is waiting for testing, @style is blocked by one test.
  266. # [18:19] <tabatkins_> fantasai: Going down the list...
  267. # [18:19] <tabatkins_> fantasai: B&B is ready except fo rthe color transition issue, which we can sort out at CR.
  268. # [18:20] <tabatkins_> fantasai: Hakon has an issue on the agenda today.
  269. # [18:20] <tabatkins_> fantasai: MQ is waiting for tests.
  270. # [18:20] <tabatkins_> fantasai: Nothing else can go on the snapshot yet.
  271. # [18:20] <tabatkins_> s/Hakon has an issue/Hakon has an issue on multicol/
  272. # [18:20] <tabatkins_> howcome: Is multicol in the testsuite?
  273. # [18:20] <tabatkins_> s/testsuite/snapshot/
  274. # [18:20] <tabatkins_> fantasai: Not yet - it needs a comprehensive testsuite first.
  275. # [18:21] <tabatkins_> howcome: It has some good tests coming in now, in the incoming directory.
  276. # [18:21] <tabatkins_> plinss: So let's get those ready to be submitted and reviewed.
  277. # [18:21] <tabatkins_> fantasai: And finish up the open issues in the draft.
  278. # [18:21] <tabatkins_> fantasai: Mobile Profile, nobody's working on.
  279. # [18:21] <tabatkins_> fantasai: Marquee is in CR, but no testsuite.
  280. # [18:21] <tabatkins_> fantasai: Can we request a testsuite from the people who want this spec?
  281. # [18:22] <tabatkins_> Bert: I tried once without success, but I can try again.
  282. # [18:22] * Joins: paul_iri_ (paul_irish@12.1.203.2)
  283. # [18:22] <tabatkins_> plinss: Is anyone implementing this?
  284. # [18:22] <tabatkins_> tabatkins_: No one on the desktop, and I don't think anyone on smartphones.
  285. # [18:22] * Quits: paul_irish (paul_irish@12.1.203.2) (Ping timeout)
  286. # [18:23] <tabatkins_> howcome: Isn't overflow-style in there? Does this mean we're not doing overflow-style ont he desktop?
  287. # [18:23] <tabatkins_> fantasai: Not overflow-style:marquee, at least.
  288. # [18:23] <tabatkins_> smfr: WebKit does implement the marquee properties.
  289. # [18:23] <tabatkins_> kimberly: It's referenced in some of the consumer electronics specs, so they may be able to contribute resources/test cases.
  290. # [18:24] <tabatkins_> ACTION kimberly: contact some consumer electronics people about contributing testcases for Marquee
  291. # [18:24] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  292. # [18:24] * RRSAgent records action 1
  293. # [18:24] <trackbot> Created ACTION-401 - Contact some consumer electronics people about contributing testcases for Marquee [on Kimberly Blessing - due 2011-11-23].
  294. # [18:24] <tabatkins_> fantasai: Paged Media still needs some work to get the spec self-coherent.
  295. # [18:24] <tabatkins_> Zakim, who is noisy.
  296. # [18:24] <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is noisy', tabatkins_
  297. # [18:24] <tabatkins_> Zakim, who is noisy?
  298. # [18:25] * Joins: howcome (howcome@88.89.78.85)
  299. # [18:25] <Zakim> tabatkins_, listening for 14 seconds I heard sound from the following: danielweck (87%)
  300. # [18:25] <smfr> monkeys on keyboards..........
  301. # [18:25] <danielweck> I am muted though....
  302. # [18:25] <danielweck> damn
  303. # [18:25] <smfr> we'll have another spec in a sec
  304. # [18:25] <glazou> LOL
  305. # [18:25] <JohnJan> nice smfr
  306. # [18:26] <tabatkins_> fantasai: I believe MIPC (printer consortium) depends on the CSS Print Profile.
  307. # [18:26] * Joins: Rossen (Rossen@131.107.0.118)
  308. # [18:26] * brianman_ considers -monkey-volume: 0;
  309. # [18:26] <tabatkins_> ACTION fantasi to ask Ming about the CSS Print Profile.
  310. # [18:26] * Quits: dsinger_ (dsinger@66.109.105.76) (Ping timeout)
  311. # [18:26] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  312. # [18:26] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - fantasi
  313. # [18:26] <tabatkins_> ACTION fantasai to ask Ming about the CSS Print Profile.
  314. # [18:26] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  315. # [18:26] <trackbot> Created ACTION-402 - Ask Ming about the CSS Print Profile. [on Elika Etemad - due 2011-11-23].
  316. # [18:26] <tabatkins_> fantasai: V&U is mostly stable, the only thing I"m slightly concerned about is attr(), but otherwise it should go to LC in a month or two unless people ahve issues they haven't raised yet.
  317. # [18:26] <tabatkins_> plinss: Any tests for it?
  318. # [18:27] <tabatkins_> fantasai: No.
  319. # [18:27] <tabatkins_> fantasai: Cascading we've talked about.
  320. # [18:27] <tabatkins_> fantasai: A new mechanism we've talked about in there is a new way to do alternate stylesheets inline, but nobody seems to be caring about that.
  321. # [18:28] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
  322. # [18:28] <Zakim> -??P79
  323. # [18:28] <tabatkins_> tabatkins_: So would you suggest dropping it to advance cascading?
  324. # [18:28] <tabatkins_> fantasai: We may consider it, yeah.
  325. # [18:28] * paul_iri_ is now known as paul_irish
  326. # [18:28] <tabatkins_> fantasai: There was a proposal for a "default" value and rolling back the cascade or blocking inheritance, which we might address there.
  327. # [18:28] <tabatkins_> fantasai: But we should probably pull the alternate stylesheets out.
  328. # [18:28] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@17.197.32.11)
  329. # [18:29] <tabatkins_> fantasai: Text probably needs to be split into 3 and 4 at this point, because there's a bunch of stable stuff like hyphens and text-decoration.
  330. # [18:29] <tabatkins_> fantasai: And there's a lot of unstable stuff, like most of text-spacing and the whitespace collapsing things.
  331. # [18:29] <tabatkins_> fantasai: So I'd like to split that down the middle and stabilize what's left.
  332. # [18:30] <Rossen> Zakim: Microsoft.a is Rossen
  333. # [18:30] <tabatkins_> florian: That's a reasonable suggestion, but since it's a large draft, I'd like some time to review what goes where.
  334. # [18:30] <tabatkins_> fantasai: I'll post a proposed list after talking with Koji and Murakami-san about what to keep.
  335. # [18:30] <tabatkins_> plinss: ARe there external dependencies on that spec from EPUB?
  336. # [18:30] <tabatkins_> fantasai: Yes - we'll keep the parts they depend on. We told them not to depend on text-spacing because it's unstable.
  337. # [18:31] <tabatkins_> florian: In your message about what to split, can you put reasoning about why you want to keep or kick some things?
  338. # [18:31] <tabatkins_> fantasai: Yes.
  339. # [18:31] <tabatkins_> fantasai: GCPM we all know about. Hakon just wanted to publish a new WD.
  340. # [18:31] * Joins: arron (Arron@24.17.123.244)
  341. # [18:31] <tabatkins_> fantasai: I think John Daggett would know more about Fonts.
  342. # [18:31] <tabatkins_> fantasai: I think the main things that are somewhat unstable are the superscript/subscript stuff. I'm not sure what the status of the rest of the draft is, but it seems stabler, at least.
  343. # [18:32] <tabatkins_> fantasai: So we'll have to wait for jdaggett to give us a proper status update.
  344. # [18:32] <tabatkins_> ACTION fantasai: ping jdaggett to send a status update on Fonts to the list
  345. # [18:32] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  346. # [18:32] * RRSAgent records action 2
  347. # [18:32] <trackbot> Created ACTION-403 - Ping jdaggett to send a status update on Fonts to the list [on Elika Etemad - due 2011-11-23].
  348. # [18:33] <tabatkins_> fantasai: Box Model needs some very careful review and some syncing with 2.1. It'll be in WD for a while.
  349. # [18:33] <tabatkins_> fantasai: I believe Anton volunteered for this.
  350. # [18:33] <tabatkins_> antonp: Bert and I had a chat about this, and the first step will be to sync with 2.1.
  351. # [18:33] <tabatkins_> antonp: And then we'll visit new properties and such.
  352. # [18:34] <tabatkins_> fantasai: Note that Bert's draft uses some slightly different terminology than 2.1 and defines the equivalency, and the new terms are less awkward to use. We probably want to preserve those.
  353. # [18:34] <tabatkins_> antonp: Okay, I'll use some judgement about what to keep in there.
  354. # [18:35] <tabatkins_> Bert: I said I was going to publish a draft of Template - I haven't done that yet, but I'm working on it.
  355. # [18:35] <tabatkins_> tabatkins_: Template and Grid doing nearly the exact same thing - I think the two should merge.
  356. # [18:36] <tabatkins_> Bert: I agree - I've done some work on that. Some bits from Regions, some from Grid, I've been working on integrating them.
  357. # [18:36] <tabatkins_> Bert: And we should have a discussion in the WG about which features to keep and which are redundant.
  358. # [18:36] <tabatkins_> Bert: Either at the next f2f or before that.
  359. # [18:37] <tabatkins_> fantasai: I think the next f2f we'll talk a lot about layout, so that'll be a good time.
  360. # [18:37] <tabatkins_> smfr: And there are some google people starting impl of Grid into WebKit.
  361. # [18:37] <danielweck> laptop microphone
  362. # [18:37] <danielweck> :)
  363. # [18:38] <Zakim> -danielweck
  364. # [18:38] <tabatkins_> danielweck: On Speech, I'm still working through some feedback and some issues from the last conf call.
  365. # [18:39] <danielweck> ok, let me continue with text:
  366. # [18:39] <danielweck> didn't want to add issues on this conference call, but definitely next concall
  367. # [18:39] * nimbupani1 is now known as divya
  368. # [18:40] <danielweck> will contact commenters again to check their respective positions on the near-resolved issues
  369. # [18:40] <danielweck> (sorry for the loss of audio link and feedback problems....no idea what is going on)
  370. # [18:40] <tabatkins_> fantasai: If the status is addressing LC comments, it should go to CR soon.
  371. # [18:40] <tabatkins_> fantasai: Basic UI is in desperate need of being republished - the current /TR is a CR, but a lot has changed.
  372. # [18:41] <tabatkins_> fantasai: I'm not sure if Tantek has any remaining open issues, but we should ask him to finish up and publish an LC.
  373. # [18:41] <Zakim> +??P8
  374. # [18:41] <tabatkins_> fantasai: CSS Scoping doesn't exist, so that's the status.
  375. # [18:41] <danielweck> Zakim, ??P8 is me
  376. # [18:41] <Zakim> +danielweck; got it
  377. # [18:41] * Quits: paul_irish (paul_irish@12.1.203.2) (Client exited)
  378. # [18:41] <tabatkins_> fantasai: Grid Layout and Regions are still WD.
  379. # [18:42] * Quits: divya (Adium@12.1.203.2) (Quit: Leaving.)
  380. # [18:42] <tabatkins_> tabatkins_: We should stabilize Grid quickly, given its gaining a second impl, but it may still need some tweaking.
  381. # [18:43] * tantek notices the mention.
  382. # [18:43] <tabatkins_> tabatkins_: For Flexbox, it's stabilizing nicely so far. I expect a WD in the next month, and LC in a few months.
  383. # [18:43] <tantek> Basic UI has open issues, but none that require more than editorial work as far as I know. The group discussed and resolved issues during the previous (Seattle) f2f.
  384. # [18:44] <tantek> tabatkins_ noted :)
  385. # [18:44] <tabatkins_> fantasai: Image Values has some issues, which I've been cleaning up.
  386. # [18:44] <tantek> er, I mean, fantasai, noted :p
  387. # [18:44] <tabatkins_> fantasai: Once we resolve the remaining Gradient issues, we should be able to get LC by end of Nov/early Dec at the latest.
  388. # [18:44] <brianman_> any word on proposals A/B, radials?
  389. # [18:44] * Joins: alexmog (alexmog@131.107.0.91)
  390. # [18:45] <tabatkins_> tabatkins_: Brian asks about the proposal vote on the blog - last I looked, they appear pretty split, so this'll probably end up being a judgement call.
  391. # [18:45] <tabatkins_> fantasai: Transforms are stable, but the specs are inadequate for interop right now, and that needs to be fixed.
  392. # [18:46] <tabatkins_> smfr: They're also going to migrate to the combined FXTF spec, which Vincent is doing.
  393. # [18:46] * Joins: tpod (tpod@66.87.4.169)
  394. # [18:46] <tabatkins_> smfr: We agreed to publish an EOL WD of CSS Transforms, and point people to the combined spec.
  395. # [18:46] * Quits: tantek (tantek@12.1.203.2) (Quit: tantek)
  396. # [18:47] <tabatkins_> tabatkins_: Other than the move, though, we're pretty much just in a state where once we fix the spec we're ready to advance?
  397. # [18:47] <tabatkins_> smfr: Yes for 2d, 3d still has some larger issues. Dropping prefixes on both may be difficult.
  398. # [18:47] <tabatkins_> plinss: Who's working on tests for transforms?
  399. # [18:48] <tabatkins_> smfr: We have some that Ted has done, and a bunch of testcases in our LayoutTests that need to be converted.
  400. # [18:48] <tabatkins_> smfr: So we'll need an effort from vendors to contribute what they have, and somebody will work on a suite.
  401. # [18:48] <tabatkins_> plinss: Ok. Remember that we agreed that we want tests to demonstrate interop before prefixes can be dropped.
  402. # [18:48] <tabatkins_> JohnJan: I think we agreed some time ago that we need somebody to be the test driver for a spec, but nobody's been named, so nothing's happening.
  403. # [18:49] <fantasai> +1
  404. # [18:49] <tabatkins_> plinss: We'll get back to that.
  405. # [18:49] <tabatkins_> plinss: Transforms and Animations?
  406. # [18:50] <tabatkins_> TabAtkins: I think it's in the same boat as 2d transforms - everyone's fine with the feature set, the spec just needs to be fixed.
  407. # [18:50] <tabatkins_> fantasai: Conditional and Device Adaptation seem to be in the early WD stage.
  408. # [18:50] <tabatkins_> plinss: Should they be marked as low priority?
  409. # [18:50] <tabatkins_> fantasai: I think we should hit on some of these.
  410. # [18:50] * glazou our CSS WG meet up with community in Paris could be sponsored by Intel !!!
  411. # [18:51] <tabatkins_> fantasai: Selectors 4, there's been some pressure from Moz to get some of these to a state that can be unprefixed.
  412. # [18:51] <plinss> s/Should they be marked as/Do we want to go over/
  413. # [18:51] <tabatkins_> fantasai: That'd mean pulling out some into a level 5 draft. Some of the selectors are very simple, some probably need more work.
  414. # [18:51] * Bert Nice! (Wondering about a CSS co-processor... :-) )
  415. # [18:52] <tabatkins_> tabatkins_: On Lists, I'm happy with the spec and want to do a WD next week. I need review, particular on positioning stuff, but then I'm comfortable with LC.
  416. # [18:52] <tabatkins_> plinss: I think this information is valuable, and we should talk about it publicly.
  417. # [18:52] <plinss> s/talk about/track/
  418. # [18:53] <Bert> SHould I add Variables to the list?
  419. # [18:53] <tabatkins_> tabatkins_: Variables has some issues to be resolved, but otherwise I think it will advance relatively quickly.
  420. # [18:54] <tabatkins_> tabatkins_: I'll request a WD in a few weeks.
  421. # [18:54] <tabatkins_> fantasai: We should wait to list Variables until there's a WD.
  422. # [18:54] <tabatkins_> plinss: We should have this summary put up on the wiki or somewhere.
  423. # [18:55] <tabatkins_> ACTION fantasai to summarize this discussion onto somewhere public (Current Work and wiki)
  424. # [18:55] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  425. # [18:55] <trackbot> Created ACTION-404 - Summarize this discussion onto somewhere public (Current Work and wiki) [on Elika Etemad - due 2011-11-23].
  426. # [18:55] <tabatkins_> tabatkins_: And I'll try to keep the wiki current as things advance.
  427. # [18:55] <tabatkins_> plinss: So, test owners. Who's going to own tests?
  428. # [18:55] <tabatkins_> fantasai: High priority seems to be B&B, multicol, transforms, transitions, and animations.
  429. # [18:55] * dcosta is now known as danielfilho
  430. # [18:55] * brianman_ smiles at action-404.
  431. # [18:56] <glazou> lol
  432. # [18:56] * tabatkins_ wants to delete the action now.
  433. # [18:56] <tabatkins_> JohnJan: I can own the B&B test suite.
  434. # [18:56] * fantasai yaya
  435. # [18:56] <tabatkins_> howcome: I can own Multicol - we've written the tests already.
  436. # [18:57] * Joins: brad (Adium@174.253.193.152)
  437. # [18:57] <glazou> what needs howcome is the word "summon" :-D
  438. # [18:57] <tabatkins_> howcome: Our last batch is comprehensive, we think, so we may not need more. But if you think we need more, you may be volunteered to submit them.
  439. # [18:57] <tabatkins_> plinss: I think the existing tests just need to be cleaned up and submitted.
  440. # [18:58] <tabatkins_> plinss: So, Transforms, Transitions, and Animations?
  441. # [18:58] <tabatkins_> plinss: Has anyone been working on tests for these?
  442. # [18:59] <JohnJan> I need to leave the call. Sorry. I will begin working on B&B this week, though.
  443. # [18:59] <oyvind> I am working on some tests for animations that could probably be submitted
  444. # [18:59] <oyvind> not reftests, but JS
  445. # [18:59] <tabatkins_> TabAtkins: JS tests are probably what we need for Animations anyway.
  446. # [18:59] <tabatkins_> plinss: As long as they use test_harness.js
  447. # [18:59] <tabatkins_> plinss: Nokia's been working on some tests too.
  448. # [18:59] * Quits: drublic (drublic@95.115.35.130) (Ping timeout)
  449. # [18:59] <tabatkins_> plinss: But we need someone to step up and own the testsuite.
  450. # [19:00] * Joins: paul_irish (paul_irish@12.1.203.2)
  451. # [19:00] <tabatkins_> plinss: No one's speaking up, so we need to talk about this later.
  452. # [19:00] <tabatkins_> plinss: Anyone who's been working on it, ask around it and get someone to commit to own the testsuite, or else these specs aren't going anywhere.
  453. # [19:01] <tabatkins_> plinss: Next request - invite Ben Schwartz as an IE.
  454. # [19:01] * Joins: tantek (tantek@66.87.4.169)
  455. # [19:01] <tabatkins_> fantasai: Vincent brought that up - Ben and Divya want to work on the spec restyling effort.
  456. # [19:01] <tabatkins_> fantasai: And Ian Jacobs suggested the best way to sort out the IPR is to make him an IE somewhere.
  457. # [19:01] <tabatkins_> plinss: And would give him a W3C account, etc.
  458. # [19:01] <tabatkins_> plinss: Any objections?
  459. # [19:02] <tabatkins_> RESOLVED: Invite Ben Schwarz as an Invited Expert
  460. # [19:02] <tabatkins_> plinss: I'll send out the invite.
  461. # [19:02] <tabatkins_> smfr: Ted is willing to be the testsuite owner for 2d and 3d transforms.
  462. # [19:03] <tabatkins_> plinss: Hakon, you wanted to publish an update to GCPM?
  463. # [19:03] * Joins: tantek_ (tantek@12.1.203.2)
  464. # [19:03] <tabatkins_> howcome: I made all the changes we agreed to at the f2f.
  465. # [19:03] <tabatkins_> howcome: I'm using overflow-style, removed some bits, and added a big warning that there may be significant changes.
  466. # [19:04] <tabatkins_> howcome: GCPM is a little unusual, it gets less mature as you scroll down, but that' snoted in the warning message.
  467. # [19:04] * Quits: tantek (tantek@66.87.4.169) (Ping timeout)
  468. # [19:04] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
  469. # [19:04] <tabatkins_> plinss: Any objections to publishing an update?
  470. # [19:04] <tabatkins_> RESOLVED: Publish a WD of GCPM
  471. # [19:04] <tabatkins_> plinss: Let's talk about multicol spanners.
  472. # [19:04] * Quits: tpod (tpod@66.87.4.169) (Ping timeout)
  473. # [19:04] <tabatkins_> howcome: I'd like consensus on this. It's about hwo spanners respond to collapsing.
  474. # [19:05] <tabatkins_> howcome: Reading throught eh spec, it's not quite clear.
  475. # [19:05] <tabatkins_> howcome: We can take the current text that says spanners create BFCs, which is allowed by the text.
  476. # [19:05] <tabatkins_> howcome: That's alternative C in my email.
  477. # [19:05] <alexmog> didn't we vote on colspans at f2f?
  478. # [19:05] <tabatkins_> We didn't resolve, alex.
  479. # [19:06] <Zakim> - +1.408.543.aabb
  480. # [19:06] <tabatkins_> howcome: I'd like to go for what the spec currently says, which means option C. I can live with other things, though.
  481. # [19:06] <tabatkins_> plinss: My concern is that if someone has a series of elements that span, and the number of columns changes, I don't want the margins to change.
  482. # [19:07] <tabatkins_> howcome: The option C does that, the others don't.
  483. # [19:07] <tabatkins_> florian: I agree that the spec currently says C. Unless there's a good reason, let's just settle on that.
  484. # [19:07] <tabatkins_> florian: The most important in interop. C is good, but if you dont' want it, justify it.
  485. # [19:08] <tabatkins_> Rossen: Option C allows margin collapsing between spanners, right?
  486. # [19:09] <tabatkins_> Rossen: We're trying to make multicol layout, which is distinct from block layout, act sanely. Option C makes them act the same, so a single-column multicol and a non-multicol element work the same.
  487. # [19:09] <tabatkins_> Rossen: We're trying to make them act more like floats, which don't collapse margins.
  488. # [19:09] <glazou> smfr: plumbing ? :-p
  489. # [19:10] * Quits: shepazu (shepazu@128.30.52.169) (Ping timeout)
  490. # [19:10] <tabatkins_> Rossen: Unless we think it's important to have a 1-col element act the same as a non-multicol element, we should do something else.
  491. # [19:10] <tabatkins_> fantasai: I don't think that was actually the reasoning for this.
  492. # [19:11] <tabatkins_> howcome: 1-col multicol does act differently - a column-span:all element will still make a BFC.
  493. # [19:11] <tabatkins_> howcome: And BFCs collapse.
  494. # [19:11] <Zakim> -danielweck
  495. # [19:11] * glazou has to go, it's already 06 passed the hour
  496. # [19:11] <tabatkins_> kimberly: I've now heard three different explanations of this case, and each time I've changed my opinion as an author.
  497. # [19:12] <tabatkins_> kimberly: Are we using consistent language when explaining this to the user community?
  498. # [19:12] * Joins: shepazu (shepazu@128.30.52.169)
  499. # [19:12] <tabatkins_> florian: I think the language in the spec is specific, but non-obvious, but if you follow everything through, you get option C.
  500. # [19:12] * smfr has to run
  501. # [19:12] <bradk> It's after 10. I have to go. Bye.
  502. # [19:13] <tabatkins_> plinss: Do we need more discussion, or concrete examples, or what?
  503. # [19:13] <Zakim> -smfr
  504. # [19:13] * alexmog has to go. don't remember how I voted, I think I like "C" today, need examples and use cases...
  505. # [19:13] <tabatkins_> kimberly: I suggest putting the question to the blog.
  506. # [19:13] * Quits: bradk (bradk@99.7.175.117) (Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/ )
  507. # [19:13] * Parts: brad (Adium@174.253.193.152)
  508. # [19:14] <tabatkins_> florian: I doubt most people will care/understand about this.
  509. # [19:14] <tabatkins_> kimberly: We can sift through for the people who *do* understand, and target particular people who'll know about it.
  510. # [19:14] <tabatkins_> fantasai: I think people will care, but it's hard to understand.
  511. # [19:15] * Joins: tpod (tpod@66.87.4.169)
  512. # [19:15] <tabatkins_> plinss: I suggest Hakon set up a webpage with visual examples, so authors can understand without talking about BFCs and what not.
  513. # [19:15] <tabatkins_> fantasai: Can Kimberly write a blog post?
  514. # [19:15] <Zakim> -glazou
  515. # [19:15] <tabatkins_> kimberly: Yeah, let's do that.
  516. # [19:15] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  517. # [19:15] <Zakim> -bradk
  518. # [19:16] * Quits: tantek (tantek@12.1.203.2) (Ping timeout)
  519. # [19:16] <tabatkins_> fantasai: I'm going to be in the East Coast in 2 weeks, and I can spend some time in Philly with Kimberly then.
  520. # [19:16] <tabatkins_> howcome: I think that's fine. I don't see an easy solution otherwise.
  521. # [19:16] * Quits: brianman (brianman@131.107.0.89) (Ping timeout)
  522. # [19:16] <tabatkins_> ACTION fantasai and Kimberly to write a blog post about multicol spanning margins.
  523. # [19:16] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  524. # [19:16] <trackbot> Created ACTION-405 - And Kimberly to write a blog post about multicol spanning margins. [on Elika Etemad - due 2011-11-23].
  525. # [19:16] <Zakim> - +47.21.65.aaff
  526. # [19:16] <Zakim> -kimberly
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  528. # [19:16] <Zakim> -antonp
  529. # [19:16] <Zakim> -florian
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  531. # [19:16] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
  532. # [19:16] <Zakim> -plinss
  533. # [19:16] <Zakim> -Bert
  534. # [19:16] * Parts: antonp (50a94e63@78.129.202.38)
  535. # [19:16] <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
  536. # [19:16] <Zakim> -tabatkins_
  537. # [19:16] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  538. # [19:16] <Zakim> Attendees were glazou, +1.215.286.aaaa, plinss, kimberly, +1.408.543.aabb, +93550aacc, antonp, florian, +1.650.275.aadd, bradk, JohnJan, +1.408.636.aaee, [IPcaller], smfr,
  539. # [19:17] <Zakim> ... danielweck, +47.21.65.aaff, Bert, +1.281.305.aagg, tabatkins_, [Microsoft]
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  545. # [19:18] <Rossen> Zakim: Microsoft is Rossen
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  576. # [20:11] <tantek> greetings folks
  577. # [20:11] <tantek> from #w3conf
  578. # [20:11] * fantasai waves
  579. # [20:11] <tantek> howcome, et al, we should add a media query selector for "high contrast mode"
  580. # [20:12] <fantasai> we know
  581. # [20:12] <tantek> which is an accessibility feature of some platforms
  582. # [20:12] <tantek> fantasai - URL?
  583. # [20:12] <fantasai> that's been brought up multiple times over the past years
  584. # [20:12] <tantek> fantasai - not useful response
  585. # [20:12] <fantasai> I don't feel like digging up the minutes right now
  586. # [20:12] <tantek> URL
  587. # [20:12] <tantek> ok fine
  588. # [20:12] <tantek> here is a URL
  589. # [20:12] <tantek> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/hh465764%28v=vs.85%29.aspx
  590. # [20:13] * Joins: arno (arno@173.13.153.50)
  591. # [20:13] <fantasai> Tantek: We have agreement in the CSSWG to make a new Media Queries module with such features
  592. # [20:13] <tantek> and btw, "brought up multiple times over the past years" and "don't feel like digging up the minutes" are exactly the problem with just sticking this stuff in email - it gets lost and is insufficiently findable
  593. # [20:13] <fantasai> Tantek: We don't have an editor.
  594. # [20:13] <fantasai> Tantek: It was discussed at the F2F two weeks ago
  595. # [20:14] <fantasai> Tantek: I can dig those minutes up AFTER I FINISH FORMATTING THEM
  596. # [20:14] * Joins: thiagotpc2 (contato@189.60.248.85)
  597. # [20:14] <thiagotpc2> Hi
  598. # [20:15] <fantasai> and fixing all the typos, and making a summary etc. etc. etc.
  599. # [20:15] * tantek notices there is no http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/mediaqueries-4 page
  600. # [20:16] <thiagotpc2> Someone works with css3-speech?
  601. # [20:16] <fantasai> thiagotpc2: what's the question? I may be able to answer
  602. # [20:17] <fantasai> tantek: here you go http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/a11yqueries
  603. # [20:18] <thiagotpc2> fantasai, I like to know if opera will improve support to css3 speech in next minor or major version... today, basicaly support a fews properties
  604. # [20:18] <tantek> fantasai - forget about it, already started writing it up in a more general place: http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/mediaqueries-4
  605. # [20:18] * thiagotpc2 is now known as thiagotpc
  606. # [20:19] <fantasai> tantek: I don't know that querying the user is querying the media, but ok
  607. # [20:19] <tantek> it's a mode of the device
  608. # [20:19] <fantasai> tantek: can you at least use mediaqueries4 to be consistent with the other files that don't use dashes for the version number?
  609. # [20:19] <tantek> it's not querying the user
  610. # [20:19] <tantek> the user sets something in their system preferences
  611. # [20:19] <tantek> just as they would set their display resolution
  612. # [20:19] <tantek> ok
  613. # [20:20] <fantasai> thiagotpc: I can't answer that question. :) You'll have to ask Opera.
  614. # [20:20] <fantasai> thiagotpc: I haven't seen much interest from them on that point, though
  615. # [20:20] <tantek> how do I move a page on the wiki
  616. # [20:20] <tantek> ?
  617. # [20:20] <fantasai> hmm, good question
  618. # [20:20] * fantasai tries
  619. # [20:21] <thiagotpc> and I would like to know too if other browser will to offer support to css3 speech to next version...
  620. # [20:21] <fantasai> tantek: Ok, that seems to have worked
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  622. # [20:21] <fantasai> tantek: it's in the Admin menu for me, not sure if it is for you
  623. # [20:22] <fantasai> tantek: we have a non-standard plugin that does it...
  624. # [20:22] <thiagotpc> fantasai, do you know other user agent that implements this?
  625. # [20:22] <fantasai> thiagotpc: Seems unlikely, although there's some chance WebKit will look into it at some point
  626. # [20:22] <fantasai> thiagotpc: emacs-w3 implements css2's speech properties
  627. # [20:22] <tantek> fantasai - I don't have an Admin menu
  628. # [20:23] <fantasai> thiagotpc: they're not quite the same
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  630. # [20:23] <fantasai> tantek: k
  631. # [20:24] * tantek finds minutes (even well formatted ones) too opaque to read through to get specific information.
  632. # [20:24] <tantek> but better to have minutes than not
  633. # [20:24] <tantek> and web searching rarely finds things in minutes
  634. # [20:24] <tantek> not sure how to fix this
  635. # [20:24] <fantasai> not sure either, given they are in the public archive
  636. # [20:24] <tantek> other than doing active work directly on wikis instead
  637. # [20:24] <fantasai> I do post summaries to the blog
  638. # [20:24] <tantek> for some reason neither of those show up in web searches
  639. # [20:24] <fantasai> but that doesn't get all the details, obviously
  640. # [20:25] <tantek> but our wikis do
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  642. # [20:25] <fantasai> hm, they're indexed
  643. # [20:25] <fantasai> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&biw=816&bih=675&q=csswg+minutes+and+resolutions+site%3Awww.w3.org&oq=csswg+minutes+and+resolutions+site%3Awww.w3.org&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=4311l6653l0l6749l16l15l0l12l0l2l365l787l2-2.1l3l0
  644. # [20:25] <fantasai> just not showing up very well
  645. # [20:26] <fantasai> very low pagerank or something
  646. # [20:26] * fantasai can't fix that
  647. # [20:27] <fantasai> tantek: Well, anyway, the PFWG had some other items they wanted for that list you're making; we gave them an action item to come back with the actual list
  648. # [20:27] <fantasai> tantek: wrt standardizing mq4, we need an editor
  649. # [20:27] <fantasai> tantek: and I'm not volunteering :)
  650. # [20:28] <tantek> sure that's fine
  651. # [20:28] <tantek> contributions to the wiki page welcome
  652. # [20:28] <tantek> I'll take my notes there rather than in emails on lists which just get lost and are unfindable
  653. # [20:28] <fantasai> yeah, sure, that's way better idea
  654. # [20:28] <fantasai> I didn't know MS had an implementation
  655. # [20:29] <tantek> I didn't either until sylvaing just informed #w3conf
  656. # [20:29] <fantasai> heh, ok
  657. # [20:29] <fantasai> tell sylvaing to find an editor :D
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  659. # [20:30] <fantasai> ok, I'm going to go eat breakfast
  660. # [20:30] <fantasai> or second breakfast, rather
  661. # [20:30] * fantasai woke up at 5:30am this morning for the csswg call
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  663. # [20:43] <hober> ugh
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  682. # [21:29] <fantasai> tantek: sorry for being grumpy
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  704. # [22:16] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Reviewing your edits to 'image-resolution', I don't think they're quite right.
  705. # [22:17] <TabAtkins> Or, hm, maybe they are. More thinking is required.
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  710. # [22:52] <fantasai> TabAtkins: waiting for your verdict :)
  711. # [22:54] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: HAPPY BUDDAYYYYYYY
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  715. # [23:03] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Never mind, your edits are correct.
  716. # [23:03] <TabAtkins> nimbupani: YAYYYYYYY
  717. # [23:03] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: HOW U CELEBRATES?
  718. # [23:04] <fantasai> TabAtkins: :)
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  720. # [23:05] <TabAtkins> nimbupani: Going out to eat tonight with the wife, and then the meadery on saturday!
  721. # [23:06] <nimbupani> weeee! enjoyy
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  734. # Session Close: Thu Nov 17 00:00:00 2011

The end :)