/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2011-11-23 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Nov 23 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  36. # [12:17] <fantasai> Typos in F2F minutes fixed, round 1.
  37. # [12:17] <fantasai> Round 2: double-check and summarize TBD...
  38. # [12:17] * fantasai debates going to sleep
  39. # [13:07] <fantasai> ... I think it's naptime.
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  53. # [17:24] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/11/23-css-irc
  54. # [17:24] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
  55. # [17:24] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 41 minutes
  56. # [17:24] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
  57. # [17:24] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
  58. # [17:30] <Bert> Glazou, do you know if there is something like a SelectORacle in French?
  59. # [17:30] <glazou> Bert: euuuh
  60. # [17:31] <glazou> something "reading" a selector in french?
  61. # [17:31] <glazou> I don't think so
  62. # [17:31] <Bert> Translating a CSS selector into plain French
  63. # [17:31] <glazou> yeah, I have one in my CSS Editor add-on to bluegriffon, not sure it's localized
  64. # [17:32] <glazou> but I don't think emeyer ever had translations for his tool
  65. # [17:32] <Bert> "div p selects every P that is a child of a DIV" but in French.
  66. # [17:32] <glazou> yes yes
  67. # [17:32] <Bert> In BlueGriffon? Ah, nice!
  68. # [17:32] <glazou> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_u1jWNiyek
  69. # [17:57] * Joins: divya (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  70. # [18:00] <glazou> Regrets: rossen, johnjansen, vhardy, edward o'connor, bradk
  71. # [18:01] * Quits: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19) (Client exited)
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  76. # [18:04] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  77. # [18:04] <Zakim> +??P16
  78. # [18:04] <Zakim> +antonp
  79. # [18:04] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  80. # [18:04] <glazou> Zakim, ??P16 is me
  81. # [18:04] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
  82. # [18:04] <florian> Zakim, I am ??P16
  83. # [18:04] <Zakim> sorry, florian, I do not see a party named '??P16'
  84. # [18:05] * Quits: florianr (florianr@213.236.208.22) (Ping timeout)
  85. # [18:05] <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
  86. # [18:05] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  87. # [18:05] <Zakim> + +1.206.552.aaaa
  88. # [18:05] <florian> Zakim, I am +[IPcaller]
  89. # [18:05] <Zakim> sorry, florian, I do not see a party named '+[IPcaller]'
  90. # [18:06] <Zakim> + +1.206.324.aabb
  91. # [18:06] <divya> Zakim, aaaa is me
  92. # [18:06] <Zakim> +divya; got it
  93. # [18:06] <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
  94. # [18:06] <florian> Zakim, I am [IPcaller]
  95. # [18:06] <Zakim> ok, florian, I now associate you with [IPcaller]
  96. # [18:06] <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: divya (20%), [IPcaller] (34%)
  97. # [18:06] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@159.63.23.38)
  98. # [18:06] <Zakim> +kimberly
  99. # [18:06] <Zakim> + +1.206.550.aacc
  100. # [18:06] <stearns> zakim, aacc is me
  101. # [18:06] <Zakim> +stearns; got it
  102. # [18:07] * Joins: kimberly (Kimberly@68.81.71.240)
  103. # [18:07] <Zakim> +SteveZ
  104. # [18:07] <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
  105. # [18:07] <dbaron> Zakim, [Mozilla] is dbaron
  106. # [18:07] <Zakim> +dbaron; got it
  107. # [18:07] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@98.232.9.174)
  108. # [18:08] <sylvaing> zakim, who is on the phone?
  109. # [18:08] <Zakim> On the phone I see glazou, antonp, [IPcaller], divya, +1.206.324.aabb, kimberly, stearns, SteveZ, dbaron
  110. # [18:08] <sylvaing> Zakim, aabb is sylvaing
  111. # [18:08] <Zakim> +plinss
  112. # [18:08] <Zakim> +sylvaing; got it
  113. # [18:09] * Joins: ericm (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  114. # [18:09] <Zakim> +??P36
  115. # [18:09] * Joins: danielweck (danielweck@86.152.124.61)
  116. # [18:09] <glazou> Zakim, ??P36 is Bert
  117. # [18:09] <Zakim> +Bert; got it
  118. # [18:10] * Joins: cesar (acebal@85.152.178.139)
  119. # [18:11] <glazou> Zakim, who is here?
  120. # [18:11] <Zakim> On the phone I see glazou, antonp, [IPcaller], divya, sylvaing, kimberly, stearns, SteveZ, dbaron, plinss, Bert
  121. # [18:11] <Zakim> On IRC I see cesar, danielweck, ericm, sylvaing, kimberly, dbaron, oyvind, florian, antonp, glazou, divya, RRSAgent, Zakim, kojiishi, ben, karl, stearns, miketaylr, danielfilho,
  122. # [18:12] <Zakim> ... drublic, brianman, arronei_, shepazu, rworth, anne, plinss, Bert, TabAtkins, paul_irish, brianman_, dglazkov, hober, fantasai, gsnedders, krijnh, Hixie, trackbot, CSSWG_LogBot,
  123. # [18:12] <Zakim> ... pjrm, ed
  124. # [18:12] <glazou> ScribeNick: divya
  125. # [18:12] <Zakim> + +050000aadd
  126. # [18:12] <dbaron> Zakim, aadd is cesar
  127. # [18:12] <Zakim> +cesar; got it
  128. # [18:13] <divya> florian: I think i can handle multicol.
  129. # [18:13] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2011OctDec/0138.html
  130. # [18:13] <Zakim> +??P41
  131. # [18:13] <Zakim> + +1.908.580.aaee
  132. # [18:13] <danielweck> Zakim, ??P41 is me
  133. # [18:13] <Zakim> +danielweck; got it
  134. # [18:13] * Joins: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.169)
  135. # [18:13] <divya> florian: we have 3 proposed behavior when you have two multicol spanners next to each other. microsoft implement b, opera implement c, current spec seems to describe c, not sure which to decide on.
  136. # [18:14] <divya> fantasai: kimberly and I took an action item to write a blog post about this. We are planning to do that next week.
  137. # [18:14] <dbaron> Zakim, aaee is fantasai
  138. # [18:14] <Zakim> +ChrisL
  139. # [18:14] <divya> fantasai: are we planning to resolve on this this week instead?
  140. # [18:14] <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
  141. # [18:14] <divya> florian: i am not sure if it would give us meaningful feedback.
  142. # [18:14] * Joins: howcome (howcome@88.89.78.85)
  143. # [18:14] <Zakim> + +47.21.65.aaff
  144. # [18:14] <divya> florian: i dont think we should spend a long time on that.
  145. # [18:14] * ChrisL zakim, mute me
  146. # [18:14] * Zakim ChrisL should now be muted
  147. # [18:15] <divya> sylvaing: i dont think one more week would make a difference.
  148. # [18:15] <howcome> zakim, aaff is howcome
  149. # [18:15] <Zakim> +howcome; got it
  150. # [18:16] <Zakim> +??P45
  151. # [18:16] <kojiishi> zakim, ??p45 is me
  152. # [18:16] <Zakim> +kojiishi; got it
  153. # [18:16] <divya> glazou: probably good to defer to next week if we dont have right people in the call.
  154. # [18:16] <stearns> Rossen has already given regrets for next week
  155. # [18:16] <divya> glazou: is it okay for you florian and howcome to discuss this next week?
  156. # [18:16] <divya> fantasai: will write blogpost next week.
  157. # [18:17] <divya> glazou: will it happen before next call?
  158. # [18:17] <divya> fantasai: probably not.
  159. # [18:17] <divya> sylvaing: we should put a date to resolve it.
  160. # [18:18] <divya> sylvaing: it is a tricky decision. so it is fine to set a date to resolve it.
  161. # [18:19] <divya> glazou: we resolve in 2 weeks time
  162. # [18:19] * ChrisL nicely done
  163. # [18:19] <divya> TOPIC: Speech
  164. # [18:19] <danielweck> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css3-speech
  165. # [18:20] <divya> glazou: max 20 mins for this.
  166. # [18:21] <divya> danielweck: not got enough feedback to determine our position on this. leave it another week and make decision next week on this issue.
  167. # [18:21] <glazou> issue 1 deferred
  168. # [18:21] <divya> issue 2, 3 is verified with wg consensus
  169. # [18:22] <divya> danielweck: issue 4 to 10, raised by gregory, some issues have been accepted, some are invalid. i think we can close them properly. waiting for verification of commenters report.
  170. # [18:22] <divya> glazou: you can put in your disposition of comments that the original commenter is unavailable at this time to verify this issue.
  171. # [18:23] <divya> danielweck: issue 11, 12, 13, 14 closed with wg consensus verified
  172. # [18:23] <divya> danielweck: 15 i need wg consensus.
  173. # [18:24] * ChrisL zakim, unmute me
  174. # [18:24] * Zakim ChrisL should no longer be muted
  175. # [18:24] <divya> danielweck: introducing new feature, …something similar to fonts.
  176. # [18:24] <divya> danielweck: lets reject that.
  177. # [18:24] * dbaron Zakim, who is on the phone?
  178. # [18:24] * Zakim sees on the phone: glazou, antonp, [IPcaller], divya, sylvaing, kimberly, stearns, SteveZ, dbaron, plinss, Bert, cesar, danielweck, fantasai, ChrisL, howcome, kojiishi
  179. # [18:24] <divya> ChrisL: is that instead of … or in addition to.
  180. # [18:24] * ChrisL that was chris lilley
  181. # [18:24] <divya> danielweck: do we have a WG resolution on it?
  182. # [18:25] <divya> RESOLVED: Move it to the next version
  183. # [18:25] <divya> danielweck: issue 16, agreement from commenter, missing WG approval.
  184. # [18:25] <divya> danielweck: about voice-family preserved value.
  185. # [18:25] <divya> fantasai: commenter asked to drop, but agreed to danielweck 's proposal to keep
  186. # [18:26] <divya> RESOLVED: keep the preserve value
  187. # [18:26] <divya> danielweck: issue 17 forcing boundaries marked it as closed invalid
  188. # [18:26] <divya> RESOLVED: marked invalid.
  189. # [18:26] <divya> danielweck: issue 18: renaming voice-stress to voice-emphasis
  190. # [18:27] <divya> danielweck: the commenters agree not to renaming it. do we have wg approval for not renaming it
  191. # [18:27] <divya> ChrisL: what is their argument for renaming it?
  192. # [18:27] <divya> glazou: stress seems to imply anger
  193. # [18:27] <divya> danielweck: i dont think it is a major issue.
  194. # [18:27] <ChrisL> ok so its the technical meaning of stress as opposed to the normal social meaning
  195. # [18:27] <divya> glazou: i have no objection myself.
  196. # [18:28] <divya> howcome: we shouldnt rename things for fun.
  197. # [18:28] <ChrisL> I think its better to keep the terms of art from the technical community
  198. # [18:28] <divya> ChrisL: if speech people use the term stress in a particular way we should use it the same way.
  199. # [18:28] <divya> RESOLVED: retained voice-stress
  200. # [18:29] <divya> danielweck: issue 19: robert approved our proposal.
  201. # [18:29] <divya> danielweck: i want to make sure he is okay with that.
  202. # [18:29] <divya> danielweck: i take that as an agreement with our consensus
  203. # [18:29] <divya> RESOLVED: no objection.
  204. # [18:30] <divya> danielweck: issue 20: marked as invalid as it is a remark about at-risk properties.
  205. # [18:30] <divya> danielweck: they would like to keep voice-balance unlike voice-duration. they agree in principle on the role of at-risk marker for this property
  206. # [18:30] * Bert : the e-mail from Robert Brown is in my moderator queue, will forward
  207. # [18:31] <divya> danielweck: issue 1 is possibly contentious and possibly renaming voice-stress to emphasis.
  208. # [18:31] <divya> danielweck: we should have this sorted by end of year and move to CR
  209. # [18:32] <danielweck> Bert: okay, great.
  210. # [18:32] <ChrisL> good
  211. # [18:32] <divya> TOPIC: New Publications
  212. # [18:32] <divya> fantasai: good to resolve the publish
  213. # [18:32] <divya> howcome: i posted several issues that havent been put in.
  214. # [18:33] <divya> howcome: noting these issues to be fixed before publications
  215. # [18:33] <divya> howcome: i have asked for these issues to be added for months and these doesnt happen.
  216. # [18:33] <divya> glazou: if these issues are noted listed then is it okay for you to publish
  217. # [18:33] <divya> howcome: yes
  218. # [18:33] <howcome> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Nov/0449.html
  219. # [18:33] <divya> fantasai: the main issue seems to be several of them seem to be same issue with different wording
  220. # [18:34] <divya> howcome: the main thing is i am worried about adding a long list of pre-defined list without us having discussed what criteria is used for adding those.
  221. # [18:34] <divya> howcome: i think we should add short-cut syntax which is being discussed on www-style
  222. # [18:34] <divya> howcome: i think issues should be written in a non-personal way.
  223. # [18:35] <divya> howcome: i propose we ask tab to add issue then we resolve to publish in a week
  224. # [18:35] <divya> ChrisL: it couldnt be published before next week anyway
  225. # [18:36] <divya> howcome: is there any news on publication of drafts we resolved last week?
  226. # [18:36] <divya> Bert: its thanksgiving again.
  227. # [18:36] <divya> glazou: we release them next week
  228. # [18:37] <divya> RESOLVED: Ask tab to include list of issues provided by Howcome ( http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Nov/0449.html ) to official list of issues and publish next week
  229. # [18:37] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Nov/0333.html
  230. # [18:37] <divya> glazou: requests to move from level3 to level 4, min and max
  231. # [18:38] <divya> dbaron: i am fine with moving it to level4
  232. # [18:38] <divya> fantasai: is the problem just mixing % and length?
  233. # [18:38] <divya> dbaron: mainly yes.
  234. # [18:38] <divya> fantasai: could we just forbid that?
  235. # [18:38] <divya> dbaron: it would be confusing and a good bit of work.
  236. # [18:38] <divya> glazou: it would be a large group of that feature I think.
  237. # [18:38] <florian> s/group/bit/
  238. # [18:39] <divya> RESOLVED: move min, max to level 4
  239. # [18:39] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Nov/0395.html
  240. # [18:39] <divya> TOPIC: CSS Text
  241. # [18:39] <divya> fantasai: discussed splitting text to move it to CR
  242. # [18:39] * Quits: drublic (drublic@77.2.151.207) (Client exited)
  243. # [18:39] <divya> fantasai: florian: has commented but nobody else
  244. # [18:40] <divya> stearns: i havent seen resolution of florian 's issue.
  245. # [18:40] <stearns> s/stearns/stevez/
  246. # [18:40] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Nov/0420.html
  247. # [18:40] <divya> RESOLVED: Deferred, for later.
  248. # [18:41] <divya> TOPIC: Inherit revisited
  249. # [18:41] <divya> ?? I would like to review it but I havent had time yet.
  250. # [18:42] <divya> RESOLVED: Defer discussion.
  251. # [18:42] <divya> glazou: CSS3 animations. @keyframes at rule
  252. # [18:42] <ChrisL> http://www.glazman.org/weblog/dotclear/index.php?post/2011/11/23/Some-thoughts-about-editing-CSS-3-Animations
  253. # [18:42] <divya> glazou: only speaking of parsing the @keyframes at rule
  254. # [18:42] * florian agrees we have time, but I have asked for an extra agenda item
  255. # [18:42] <Zakim> -danielweck
  256. # [18:43] <divya> glazou: currently it is a prefixed so its a huge burden
  257. # [18:43] <Zakim> +??P53
  258. # [18:43] <danielweck> Zakim, ??P53 is me
  259. # [18:43] <Zakim> +danielweck; got it
  260. # [18:43] <divya> ?? we are talking with unprefixing but not others.
  261. # [18:43] <dbaron> s/??/sylvaing:/
  262. # [18:43] <divya> sylvaing: how do we effectively say this is the issue in CR and not the other things in the stack
  263. # [18:44] <dbaron> (or maybe that was someone else... sorry?)
  264. # [18:44] <divya> florian: why do you think that particular bit helps a lot of people and not the rest.
  265. # [18:44] * Quits: ericm (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  266. # [18:44] <divya> glazou: that rule is hard to duplicate.
  267. # [18:44] <dbaron> s/that/an at/
  268. # [18:45] <divya> glazou: you need to change the prefixes inside the keyframes too
  269. # [18:45] <divya> sylvaing: it is such a pain to multiple the @ rules we write js to repeat them. it is painful
  270. # [18:45] <ChrisL> zakim, who is speaking?
  271. # [18:45] <Zakim> ChrisL, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: howcome (5%), SteveZ (55%), Bert (5%)
  272. # [18:45] <divya> florian: i support the move as well but i am not sure how we can change.
  273. # [18:45] * fantasai agrees with Bert's edits to CSS2.1, in preference to Tab's. Much clearer.
  274. # [18:45] <divya> Stevez: how can you test this is consistently done
  275. # [18:46] * dbaron wonders which edits to CSS 2.1 these are
  276. # [18:46] <divya> Stevez: i am confused how to test this instead of the others.
  277. # [18:46] <oyvind> I don't think that part of the spec is good enough for CR but unprefixing is another matter
  278. # [18:46] * fantasai http://www.w3.org/Style/css2-updates/REC-CSS2-20110607-errata.html
  279. # [18:46] * Bert thanks fantasai
  280. # [18:46] <divya> sylvaing: there are basic issues about the content of the rules, what do you do with the value, it is kind of awkward to just accomodate to that.
  281. # [18:47] <oyvind> (or maybe it is fine for CR, but it has a lot of unaddressed issues w.r.t. edge cases and error handling)
  282. # [18:47] <Zakim> -antonp
  283. # [18:47] <divya> florian: for the record I am for removing prefixes, but not comfortable removing prefixes on that while simultaneously keeping on the rest.
  284. # [18:48] <divya> glazou: lack in the OM for keyframes. the OM for keyframes would allow defined rule for a key. not allow to retrieve key for keyframes.
  285. # [18:48] <divya> glazou: new readonly attribute to retrieve list of keys
  286. # [18:48] <divya> glazou: probably authors rely on JS
  287. # [18:48] <divya> glazou: the key would be a string.
  288. # [18:49] <antonp> (apologies; I'm having connection troubles)
  289. # [18:49] <divya> florian: i had asked for an extra item. can we talk a bit about that?
  290. # [18:49] <divya> florian: the content property in css 2.1 allows you to add images, which are added as a child of the elements
  291. # [18:49] <divya> florian: css3 content spec is confusingly worded.
  292. # [18:50] <divya> florian: if you use same syntax as css 2.1 as the behaviour would be same.
  293. # [18:50] <divya> florian: if you use url() you would get replaced content.
  294. # [18:50] <divya> florian: i am confused by 1st sentence of section 8 replaced content.
  295. # [18:50] * Joins: szilles (chatzilla@24.6.120.172)
  296. # [18:50] * glazou florian's phone noise and frequency threshold is giving me a strog headache
  297. # [18:50] <divya> florian: it seem incompatible with what css2.1 and css3 says.
  298. # [18:51] <divya> dbaron: i think it is a contradition, and i proposed a rewording on the list.
  299. # [18:51] <divya> florian: i thought the discussion had died, so i brought it to the telecon.
  300. # [18:51] <divya> florian: but it came back to life.
  301. # [18:52] <divya> dbaron: i would be okay concluding something
  302. # [18:54] <divya> florian: I dont think anyone implements the switch at the moment, so we wont be breaking anything.
  303. # [18:54] <divya> dbaron: i think the open question is whether we are going to do fallback mechanism within value syntax, we wont want a fallback mechanism inside the property syntax
  304. # [18:54] <divya> fantasai: we are doing fallback in value syntax only for a certain type of content.
  305. # [18:54] <divya> fantasai: e.g. if you are a visual browser, here is a picture, if you are a text-only browser, here is some text.
  306. # [18:55] <divya> florian: i dont think you cant do what you just said the way it is currently specced
  307. # [18:55] <divya> florian: sorry, what you said is probably correct.
  308. # [18:55] <fantasai> s/certain/given/
  309. # [18:55] <divya> florian: i dont think we should go into full discussion on what values should be accepted by content property.
  310. # [18:56] <divya> florian: we should discuss this on the list then.
  311. # [18:56] <divya> glazou: anything else?
  312. # [18:56] <divya> glazou: happy thanksgiving!
  313. # [18:56] <Zakim> -ChrisL
  314. # [18:56] <Zakim> -kimberly
  315. # [18:56] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  316. # [18:56] <Zakim> -sylvaing
  317. # [18:56] <Zakim> -glazou
  318. # [18:56] <Zakim> -fantasai
  319. # [18:56] <Zakim> -dbaron
  320. # [18:56] * Quits: kimberly (Kimberly@68.81.71.240) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 9.0/20111116091359])
  321. # [18:56] <Zakim> -danielweck
  322. # [18:56] <Zakim> -divya
  323. # [18:56] <Zakim> -kojiishi
  324. # [18:56] * Parts: antonp (50a94e63@109.169.29.95)
  325. # [18:56] <Zakim> -howcome
  326. # [18:57] <Zakim> -cesar
  327. # [18:57] <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
  328. # [18:57] <Zakim> -stearns
  329. # [18:57] <Zakim> -Bert
  330. # [18:57] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  331. # [18:57] <Zakim> Attendees were antonp, [IPcaller], glazou, +1.206.552.aaaa, +1.206.324.aabb, divya, kimberly, +1.206.550.aacc, stearns, SteveZ, dbaron, plinss, sylvaing, Bert, +050000aadd, cesar,
  332. # [18:57] <Zakim> ... +1.908.580.aaee, danielweck, ChrisL, fantasai, +47.21.65.aaff, howcome, kojiishi
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  363. # [21:20] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
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  373. # [23:22] <dholbert> TabAtkins, ping
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  376. # [23:26] <TabAtkins> dholbert: pong
  377. # [23:26] <dholbert> TabAtkins, hi! I was wondering whether you might have an estimate of when the next rev of the flexbox ED might be out
  378. # [23:26] <TabAtkins> Next week!
  379. # [23:26] <dholbert> ah, great!
  380. # [23:27] <TabAtkins> Been working on Images and Lists lately, but need to get back and put in a bunch of Flexbox edits.
  381. # [23:27] <dholbert> excellent, thanks
  382. # [23:27] <dholbert> yup, gotcha
  383. # [23:41] * Joins: karl (karlcow@128.30.54.58)
  384. # [23:45] * Parts: dholbert (dholbert@98.248.36.12) (Ex-Chat)
  385. # Session Close: Thu Nov 24 00:00:00 2011

The end :)