/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2012-01-04 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Jan 04 00:00:01 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  41. # [08:52] <xDxD> e ljudi aj na chat
  42. # [08:52] <xDxD> :)
  43. # [08:53] <xDxD> e jasperu ko si ti
  44. # [08:54] <xDxD> konjino glupa
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  70. # [18:05] <florianr> I had to invite zakim back
  71. # [18:06] <florianr> and he doesn't seem to notice the connection betweent he voice conference and this channel
  72. # [18:06] <florianr> Zakim, this is style
  73. # [18:06] <Zakim> ok, florianr; that matches Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
  74. # [18:06] * Joins: TabAtkins_ (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  75. # [18:07] <Zakim> -??P28
  76. # [18:07] <Zakim> + +1.206.324.aacc
  77. # [18:07] <Zakim> + +93550aadd
  78. # [18:07] <antonp> Zakim, aadd is me
  79. # [18:07] <Zakim> + +1.858.354.aaee
  80. # [18:07] <plinss> zakim, aaee is me
  81. # [18:08] * Joins: vhardy (vhardy@192.150.10.201)
  82. # [18:08] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  83. # [18:08] * Joins: oyvind (oyvinds@213.236.208.22)
  84. # [18:08] <florianr> Zakim, I am IPcaller
  85. # [18:08] <TabAtkins_> Hm, Zakim hasn't seen me yet, but I can hear everyone.
  86. # [18:08] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  87. # [18:08] <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
  88. # [18:08] * Joins: bradk (bradk@99.7.175.117)
  89. # [18:08] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@72.94.180.111)
  90. # [18:08] <Zakim> +antonp; got it
  91. # [18:09] <florianr> Is anybody talking? I am connected, but can here anything
  92. # [18:09] * Joins: JohnJansen (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  93. # [18:09] * Joins: CesarAcebal (acebal@85.152.178.139)
  94. # [18:09] <JohnJansen> zakim, microsoft has johnjansen
  95. # [18:09] <Zakim> +plinss; got it
  96. # [18:09] <Zakim> + +1.281.305.aaff
  97. # [18:09] <florianr> and I am not sure Zakim has seen me yet either
  98. # [18:09] <Zakim> +??P69
  99. # [18:09] * fantasai can't hear you
  100. # [18:09] * fantasai wonders which one is fantasai
  101. # [18:09] <plinss> zakim appears to be very slow this morning...
  102. # [18:09] <fantasai> zakim, who is here?
  103. # [18:09] <nimbu> where is me
  104. # [18:09] <Zakim> sorry, florianr, I do not see a party named 'IPcaller'
  105. # [18:09] <florianr> Zakim had left the channel, so I had to invite him back, and reconnect to the channel. Hopefully I did it right
  106. # [18:10] * Joins: smfr (smfr@173.228.90.114)
  107. # [18:10] <dbaron> I suspect I'm P69
  108. # [18:10] <dbaron> Zakim, who is noisy?
  109. # [18:10] <Zakim> +Oliver_Goldman
  110. # [18:10] <arronei> I'm on IRC but not on the phone.
  111. # [18:10] <Zakim> +johnjansen; got it
  112. # [18:10] <Zakim> +David_Baron
  113. # [18:10] <Zakim> + +1.206.552.aagg
  114. # [18:10] <dstorey> I'm also on IRC but not on the call
  115. # [18:10] <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.619.846.aaaa, ??P42, ??P35, +1.206.550.aabb, +1.206.324.aacc, antonp, plinss, [Microsoft], +1.281.305.aaff, ??P69, Oliver_Goldman, David_Baron,
  116. # [18:11] <Zakim> ... +1.206.552.aagg
  117. # [18:11] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has johnjansen
  118. # [18:11] <TabAtkins_> zakim, aaff is me
  119. # [18:11] <dbaron> oh, wow, Zakim has this phone number... I didn't know that :-)
  120. # [18:11] <stearns> zakim, aabb is me
  121. # [18:11] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@98.232.9.174)
  122. # [18:11] <TabAtkins_> Zakim, aaff is me
  123. # [18:11] <arno> Zakim, aagg is me
  124. # [18:11] <Zakim> dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: plinss (5%), ??P69 (8%)
  125. # [18:11] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.169)
  126. # [18:11] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/01/04-css-irc
  127. # [18:11] <Zakim> + +1.408.636.aahh
  128. # [18:11] <smfr> Zakim, aahh is me
  129. # [18:11] <Zakim> + +1.415.832.aaii
  130. # [18:11] <Zakim> On IRC I see smfr, CesarAcebal, JohnJansen, dbaron, bradk, oyvind, vhardy, TabAtkins_, plinss, Zakim, antonp, dstorey, arronei, arno, miketaylr, kojiishi, nimbu, rworth, Ms2ger,
  131. # [18:11] <Zakim> ... florianr, shepazu, stearns, plinss_, gsnedders, krijnh, hober, TabAtkins, Hixie, trackbot, pjrm, dglazkov, Bert, ed, paul_irish_, fantasai, CSSWG_LogBot
  132. # [18:11] <Zakim> +TabAtkins_; got it
  133. # [18:11] <Zakim> +stearns; got it
  134. # [18:12] <Zakim> sorry, TabAtkins_, I do not recognize a party named 'aaff'
  135. # [18:12] <Zakim> +arno; got it
  136. # [18:12] * Quits: CesarAcebal (acebal@85.152.178.139) (Ping timeout)
  137. # [18:12] <Zakim> +smfr; got it
  138. # [18:12] <fantasai> zakim, who is here?
  139. # [18:12] <Zakim> +??P24
  140. # [18:12] <nimbu> Zakim, +??P24 is me
  141. # [18:12] <Zakim> -??P69
  142. # [18:12] <Zakim> -arno
  143. # [18:12] <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.619.846.aaaa, ??P42, ??P35, stearns, +1.206.324.aacc, antonp, plinss, [Microsoft], TabAtkins_, Oliver_Goldman, David_Baron, smfr, +1.415.832.aaii, ??P24
  144. # [18:12] <nimbu> :|
  145. # [18:12] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has johnjansen
  146. # [18:12] * Joins: CesarAcebal (acebal@85.152.178.139)
  147. # [18:12] <Zakim> +arno
  148. # [18:13] <Zakim> sorry, nimbu, I do not recognize a party named '+??P24'
  149. # [18:13] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  150. # [18:13] <TabAtkins_> ScribeNick: TabAtkins_
  151. # [18:13] <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, sylvaing, smfr, JohnJansen, dbaron, bradk, oyvind, vhardy, TabAtkins_, plinss, Zakim, antonp, dstorey, arronei, arno, miketaylr, kojiishi, nimbu, rworth,
  152. # [18:13] <Zakim> ... Ms2ger, florianr, shepazu, stearns, plinss_, gsnedders, krijnh, hober, TabAtkins, Hixie, trackbot, pjrm, dglazkov, Bert, ed, paul_irish_, fantasai, CSSWG_LogBot
  153. # [18:13] <TabAtkins_> plinss: Happy New Year!
  154. # [18:13] <florianr> Zakim, I am [IPcaller]
  155. # [18:13] <TabAtkins_> Topic: Paris f2f
  156. # [18:13] <Zakim> ok, florianr, I now associate you with [IPcaller]
  157. # [18:13] <dbaron> Zakim, mute David_Baron
  158. # [18:13] <TabAtkins_> plinss: Let's start gathering agenda items on the wiki
  159. # [18:13] <Zakim> David_Baron should now be muted
  160. # [18:13] <Zakim> + +1.650.275.aajj
  161. # [18:13] <TabAtkins_> plinss: Also Daniel needs an accurate attendee list ASAP.
  162. # [18:14] <TabAtkins_> plinss: At least your name, even if you don't want to put your othe rinfo in.
  163. # [18:14] <bradk> Zakim, aajj is me
  164. # [18:14] <Zakim> +bradk; got it
  165. # [18:14] * Joins: Cathy (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  166. # [18:14] <TabAtkins_> plinss: He has to set up security and such, so get it in.
  167. # [18:14] <TabAtkins_> vhardy: Can we decide today on the location for the f2f following that?
  168. # [18:14] <TabAtkins_> plinss: We can try. What's the status?
  169. # [18:14] <TabAtkins_> vhardy: Last time I checked the options seemed to be moving it to Hamburg or hosting it with Opera.
  170. # [18:15] <TabAtkins_> florianr: Where did Opera offer to host it?
  171. # [18:15] <TabAtkins_> vhardy: I think Hakon offered to host in his form response.
  172. # [18:15] <TabAtkins_> vhardy: I think it was Stockholm.
  173. # [18:15] <Zakim> -??P24
  174. # [18:15] <TabAtkins_> vhardy: Adobe can also host in Hamburg.
  175. # [18:15] <TabAtkins_> florianr: Stockhold seems surprising; maybe Oslo.
  176. # [18:15] <TabAtkins_> plinss: So the consensus seems to be to keep the same date?
  177. # [18:16] <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: I think the dates sync well with an AC meeting in Europe, so that's already convenient for several people.
  178. # [18:16] <TabAtkins_> [several people on the call said the dates were fine]
  179. # [18:16] <vhardy> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/32061/css-2012-05/results
  180. # [18:16] <CesarAcebal> I'm having problems trying to connect through Zakim. After several minutes, I haven't been able yet, I'm sorry (I'll continue trying it…)
  181. # [18:16] <TabAtkins_> plinss: I'm happy to resolve to keep the same dates. Should we resolve on a location?
  182. # [18:17] <TabAtkins_> vhardy: That would be helpful, so I can start getting things set up in Hamburg or whatnot.
  183. # [18:17] * fantasai is ok with that or Oslo
  184. # [18:17] <TabAtkins_> plinss: Doe sanyone have any problems with Hamburg?
  185. # [18:18] <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins: I'm a wanted criminal in Hamburg.
  186. # [18:18] <TabAtkins_> ???: Did you eat all their hamburgers?
  187. # [18:18] <TabAtkins_> RESOLVED: Move the second f2f this year to Hamburg, same dates as before.
  188. # [18:18] <TabAtkins_> Topic: LC for Image Values
  189. # [18:18] <hober> Zakim, aaaa is me
  190. # [18:18] <Zakim> +hober; got it
  191. # [18:19] <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins: I'd like to move Images to LC and get final review, so we can hopefully get it to CR.
  192. # [18:19] <TabAtkins_> [no objections]
  193. # [18:19] * sylvaing assumes tabatkins walked around barefoot in the hamburg cathedral. major diplomatic upset.
  194. # [18:19] <fantasai> We need more examples
  195. # [18:19] <fantasai> in the spec
  196. # [18:19] <dbaron> I expect I'll send a bunch of comments, since I haven't gotten through it yet.
  197. # [18:19] <dbaron> (It seems like you can't hear me.)
  198. # [18:20] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: It needs more examples, but seems to be mostly editorial. We'll need to settle on an LC review period.
  199. # [18:20] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: I recommend the Thursday before the f2f, so we can do final editting before the f2f.
  200. # [18:20] <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: That's about 4 weeks. Is that okay?
  201. # [18:21] <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: Do we want the LC period to go through the f2f, so we can accept comments from it?
  202. # [18:21] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: We can accept comments before the deadline, but we should ask for them before.
  203. # [18:22] <TabAtkins_> florianr: I don't think it's that important to collect comments during the f2f; theoretically we'll mostly be soliciting comments from non-WG people.
  204. # [18:23] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: The nearest publishing period is next Tuesday, so how about we set the period to end on the Tuesday of the f2f?
  205. # [18:23] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: On the 7th
  206. # [18:23] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: midnight on the 7th
  207. # [18:23] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
  208. # [18:23] <Zakim> -??P35
  209. # [18:23] <TabAtkins_> RESOLVED: Publish Image Values as LC, LC period ends on Feb 7th
  210. # [18:23] <fantasai> SVGWG, Media Fragments WG, anyone else?
  211. # [18:24] * Joins: Rossen (Rossen@131.107.0.89)
  212. # [18:24] <fantasai> Tab: HTMLWG
  213. # [18:25] <TabAtkins_> Topic: Lists spec publishing
  214. # [18:25] <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: I want a WD or LC, whatever it takes to get good review of what's left, particularly the positioning stuff.
  215. # [18:26] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: Where's the counter styles?
  216. # [18:26] <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: on dev, at css-counter-styles I think
  217. # [18:26] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: I think we should publish that as well.
  218. # [18:27] * Joins: danielweck (danielweck@81.154.227.180)
  219. # [18:27] <Zakim> +??P15
  220. # [18:27] * Quits: CesarAcebal (acebal@85.152.178.139) (Ping timeout)
  221. # [18:27] <kojiishi> zakim, ??p15 is me
  222. # [18:27] <Zakim> +kojiishi; got it
  223. # [18:28] * Joins: CesarAcebal (acebal@85.152.178.139)
  224. # [18:29] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: I think that the counter styles should be together - the 2.1 stuff should be with the other counter styles.
  225. # [18:29] * Quits: CesarAcebal (acebal@85.152.178.139) (Connection reset by peer)
  226. # [18:29] <TabAtkins_> [some unminuted argument about this]
  227. # [18:29] <TabAtkins_> plinss: So bottom line, agree to publish Lists and Counter STyles as WD?
  228. # [18:29] * Joins: foobar (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  229. # [18:29] <TabAtkins_> RESOLVED: Publish a new WD of Lists, and a FPWD of Counter Styles.
  230. # [18:30] <TabAtkins_> Topic: Transitions from display:none
  231. # [18:30] <plinss> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Dec/0353.html
  232. # [18:30] <TabAtkins_> plinss: leftover from before
  233. # [18:30] * Quits: foobar (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
  234. # [18:30] <TabAtkins_> plinss: Was there anything left to discuss?
  235. # [18:31] <danielweck> Note: Daniel Weck got stuck in traffic, just joined IRC (25mn late, sorry).
  236. # [18:31] <TabAtkins_> plinss: There was an issue raised by Opera?
  237. # [18:31] <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: We resolved the animation issue, but Oyvind has a good point that we don't yet define what happens for transitions.
  238. # [18:31] <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: If we start from display:none and then transition to a non-none value, does the transition happen? Or not?
  239. # [18:32] <TabAtkins_> florianr: Right. I argued that for the same reasons as Animations, the transition shouldn't happen.
  240. # [18:32] <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: I think I agree.
  241. # [18:33] <TabAtkins_> smfr: I think it's a common request from authors, but if we define it we'd have to define the processing model much more closely, which we've avoided doing so far.
  242. # [18:33] <TabAtkins_> smfr: So I don't object to it.
  243. # [18:33] <TabAtkins_> RESOLVED: Transitions don't fire when the starting state is display:none, similar to animations
  244. # [18:33] <plinss> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Nov/0420.html
  245. # [18:33] <TabAtkins_> Topic: inherit in shorthands
  246. # [18:33] * Zakim TabAtkins_, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
  247. # [18:34] * Joins: leaverou (leaverou@94.170.19.80)
  248. # [18:34] <dbaron> (I'm not quite sure how that's "similar to animations", but also not sure it's that important right now...)
  249. # [18:35] <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: We'll deal with that offline, since Anton had some objections.
  250. # [18:35] <TabAtkins_> Topic: text-overflow:ellipsis
  251. # [18:35] <plinss> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Nov/0537.html
  252. # [18:35] <sylvaing> (agrees with dbaron)
  253. # [18:36] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: I believe Tantek updated the spec in response to this. There's more recent text *and* a more recent issue.
  254. # [18:36] <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
  255. # [18:36] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Jan/0000.html
  256. # [18:36] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: I encourage people to follow up on this based on the new text.
  257. # [18:36] <smfr> wow, we can hear tantek!
  258. # [18:38] <TabAtkins_> smfr: I talked with other WebKit people, and I think we prefer our current behavior.
  259. # [18:38] * Joins: tantek (tantek@159.63.23.38)
  260. # [18:38] <TabAtkins_> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-ui/#text-overflow
  261. # [18:38] * fantasai doesn't think webkit's current behavior makes much sense
  262. # [18:39] <TabAtkins_> tantek: The current text doesn't reflect what the testcases are showing, and so I wanted to ping the group before updating, since we're getting down into a lot of detail.
  263. # [18:39] <tantek> Zakim, who is here?
  264. # [18:39] <Zakim> On the phone I see hober, ??P42, stearns, +1.206.324.aacc, antonp, plinss, [Microsoft], TabAtkins_, Oliver_Goldman, David_Baron (muted), smfr, +1.415.832.aaii, arno, [IPcaller],
  265. # [18:39] <Zakim> ... bradk, [Microsoft.a], kojiishi, [Mozilla]
  266. # [18:39] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has johnjansen
  267. # [18:39] <Zakim> On IRC I see tantek, leaverou, danielweck, Rossen, Cathy, RRSAgent, sylvaing, smfr, JohnJansen, dbaron, bradk, oyvind, vhardy, TabAtkins_, plinss, Zakim, antonp, dstorey, arronei,
  268. # [18:39] <Zakim> ... arno, miketaylr, kojiishi, nimbu, rworth, Ms2ger, florianr, shepazu, stearns, plinss_, gsnedders, krijnh, hober, TabAtkins, Hixie, trackbot, pjrm, dglazkov, Bert, ed,
  269. # [18:39] <Zakim> ... paul_irish_, fantasai, CSSWG_LogBot
  270. # [18:39] * Quits: Rossen (Rossen@131.107.0.89) (Ping timeout)
  271. # [18:40] <TabAtkins_> tantek: The short summary is, from the research I've done (pasted above), both Opera and Webkit are internally broken when there's a small number of items on a line. The behavior is simply inconsistent as far as I can tell.
  272. # [18:40] <TabAtkins_> florianr: I don't defend Opera's behavior.
  273. # [18:40] * Joins: Rossen (Rossen@131.107.0.89)
  274. # [18:41] <TabAtkins_> tantek: Boris's suggestion wasn't quite correct - implementations *do* clip the first atomic inline on a line, but later ones aren't treated that way.
  275. # [18:41] <TabAtkins_> tantek: So the purpose of my testcases was to illustrate that and come up with a behavior that we can all agree on.
  276. # [18:41] <TabAtkins_> tantek: So far it looks like IE10's behavior is th emost reasonable, and I'm wondering if there are any objections to me speccing that.
  277. # [18:41] <dbaron> Zakim, unmute David_Baron
  278. # [18:41] <Zakim> David_Baron should no longer be muted
  279. # [18:42] <TabAtkins_> florianr: I'm okay with this change, but I'm okay with any reasonable answer.
  280. # [18:42] <TabAtkins_> dbaron: Has Boris approved of this?
  281. # [18:42] <TabAtkins_> tantek: Boris hasnt' followed up yet - the discussion in the bug has been between me and roc and matt(?)
  282. # [18:42] <dbaron> s/matt(?)/mats/
  283. # [18:42] <fantasai> screenshot in IE9 - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2012Jan/0002.html
  284. # [18:42] <TabAtkins_> tantek: [a summary of the bug discussion]
  285. # [18:43] <tantek> https://bug690187.bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=583917
  286. # [18:43] <TabAtkins_> tantek: For example, the inline image line in the IE results...
  287. # [18:43] <dbaron> tantek: Boris made an assertion about atomic inlines that only turns out to be true for the first atomic inline but not always true for later ones
  288. # [18:43] <TabAtkins_> tantek: The first inline image or inline-block is clipped, not ellipsed, but the second and third on a line is ellipsed.
  289. # [18:44] <TabAtkins_> tantek: So I proposed that behavior.
  290. # [18:44] <TabAtkins_> tantek: Boris counter-proposed a simpler model saying that all atomic inlines should be clipped, but that's not what impls do.
  291. # [18:44] * dbaron wonders if people can hear him
  292. # [18:44] * sylvaing dbaron, no - can't hear you at all
  293. # [18:45] <TabAtkins_> tantek: I think this should be Mozilla's behavior, since it's both sane and consistent with existing impls.
  294. # [18:45] <dbaron> well, I said "sounds good" at a specific point at a pause in what Tantek said
  295. # [18:45] <dbaron> Zakim, mute David_Baron
  296. # [18:45] <Zakim> David_Baron should now be muted
  297. # [18:45] <TabAtkins_> smfr: I'll get Sam to take a look at this email and get back.
  298. # [18:45] <smfr> s/Sam/Dan Bernstein
  299. # [18:46] <TabAtkins_> tantek: Anyone from MS on the call that can provide some information?
  300. # [18:46] <TabAtkins_> Rossen: I don't remember doing any specific work in IE10 for ellipses.
  301. # [18:46] <TabAtkins_> Rossen: So several releases back *should* give the same results.
  302. # [18:47] <tantek> test case again: https://bug690187.bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=583694
  303. # [18:47] <TabAtkins_> plinss: So we're waiting on feedback from Webkit folks. Should we tentatively resolve, or give a deadline of a week to talk?
  304. # [18:47] <TabAtkins_> tantek: I'd like to make the change now, since nobody likes the current text. Close the issue now, but leave it available for review from webkit or else later.
  305. # [18:48] <TabAtkins_> [sounds good to several people]
  306. # [18:48] <TabAtkins_> RESOLVED: Make the changes to text-overflow:ellipsis outlined in tantek's email
  307. # [18:48] <TabAtkins_> tantek: And now I think I'm ready for an LC draft, after I've made these changes.
  308. # [18:48] <TabAtkins_> plinss: Any objections?
  309. # [18:49] <TabAtkins_> florianr: I haven't read it yet, so I'd like to review.
  310. # [18:49] <TabAtkins_> tantek: How about a week for review?
  311. # [18:49] <TabAtkins_> plinss: Okay, so one week for review, we'll look at LC publishing next week.
  312. # [18:49] <TabAtkins_> Topic: Where in the cascade do animations go?
  313. # [18:49] <plinss> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Nov/0667.html
  314. # [18:49] <dbaron> Zakim, unmute David_Baron
  315. # [18:49] <Zakim> David_Baron should no longer be muted
  316. # [18:49] <bradk> I have to leave a little early, so I will bow out now. Bye.
  317. # [18:49] <TabAtkins_> dbaron: I don't remember what the conclusion from the email discussion was.
  318. # [18:50] <Zakim> -bradk
  319. # [18:50] * sylvaing yay we can hear dbaron
  320. # [18:50] <TabAtkins_> dbaron: First, is !important allowed in keyframes? And if it is, what does it mean?
  321. # [18:50] <TabAtkins_> dbaron: And then where do animations go, both for !important and non?
  322. # [18:51] <TabAtkins_> smfr: webkit applies animation styles at the very end, so they override everything else, including user !important.
  323. # [18:51] <TabAtkins_> dbaron: I don't want them to override user !important.
  324. # [18:51] <nimbu> i agree too
  325. # [18:51] <TabAtkins_> smfr: I agree with that too, it's just harder to implement for us.
  326. # [18:52] <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: smfr, do you know if we've ever implemented the notion of the "override" stylesheet level?
  327. # [18:52] <TabAtkins_> smfr: Don't know.
  328. # [18:52] <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: If they don't override user !important rules, what does it mean?
  329. # [18:52] * Quits: bradk (bradk@99.7.175.117) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep)
  330. # [18:52] <TabAtkins_> dbaron: It means if there is a user !important rule, that property doesn't animate, since there's a property higher in the cascade that overrides it.
  331. # [18:53] <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: Ok, that's what I'd expect.
  332. # [18:53] <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: It sounds like putting animations in the override level is agreeable.
  333. # [18:54] <TabAtkins_> plinss: I don't think the override level is defined anywhere
  334. # [18:54] <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: It's defined in http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-Style/css.html#CSS-DocumentCSS
  335. # [18:54] <TabAtkins_> dbaron: SVG relies on it for SMIL animations.
  336. # [18:54] <TabAtkins_> dbaron: I wouldn't want it in the override level - I'd want it between override and something else.
  337. # [18:55] * sylvaing override sounds a lot like runtimeStyle in IE ?
  338. # [18:55] <TabAtkins_> dbaron: Because the override level still contains rules with specificity, while animations don't have specificity, so they have to either be above or below that.
  339. # [18:55] <dbaron> override is a level that has CSS specificity inside of it
  340. # [18:55] <sylvaing> ok, check
  341. # [18:55] <TabAtkins_> plinss: Not exactly like runtimeStyle - it's still a place where actual stylesheets can live.
  342. # [18:56] <TabAtkins_> plinss: So are people generally agreeing that animations should live somewhere around here? Or is it too difficult?
  343. # [18:56] <TabAtkins_> smfr: Gecko already does it, so that proves it's not impossible.
  344. # [18:56] * Quits: Rossen (Rossen@131.107.0.89) (Ping timeout)
  345. # [18:57] <TabAtkins_> plinss: So what about !important in animations?
  346. # [18:57] <tantek> Zakim, tantek is in Mozilla
  347. # [18:57] <Zakim> +tantek; got it
  348. # [18:58] <tantek> Zakim, who is in Mozilla?
  349. # [18:58] <Zakim> [Mozilla] has tantek
  350. # [18:58] <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: If animations all live above @style, then it doesn't seem like it's necessary for animations to support it.
  351. # [18:58] <TabAtkins_> dbaron: But then is !important a syntax error or just ignored?
  352. # [18:58] <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: No strong preference, but if it does nothing, I'd prefer it to be a syntax error.
  353. # [18:58] <oyvind> should be similar to @font-face I assume
  354. # [18:59] <TabAtkins_> smfr: So what if you have two animations going over the same property, would an !important on the first animation override the second animation?
  355. # [18:59] <TabAtkins_> dbaron: Gecko doesn't currently do that.
  356. # [19:00] <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: What about other at-rules like @font-face?
  357. # [19:00] <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: Those aren't properties, they're descriptors. I'm not sure whether it's defined whether or not it's a syntax error, but I do know that none of them pay attention to it.
  358. # [19:02] <TabAtkins_> smfr: I'm not advocating for the !important.
  359. # [19:03] <TabAtkins_> dbaron: The 2.1 spec grammar allows !important in @font-face, but the prose doesn't. Gecko doesn't allow it.
  360. # [19:03] <dbaron> s/2.1/2.0/
  361. # [19:03] <dbaron> css3-fonts prose also doesn't allow it
  362. # [19:03] <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: Are there any upcoming at-rules that might want !important? Would it be confusing for authors?
  363. # [19:03] <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: Like Regions?
  364. # [19:04] <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: The only ones that shoudl want it are honest-to-god rules and declarations, with selectors and familiar properties and whatnot. The rest of at-rules shouldn't.
  365. # [19:05] <TabAtkins_> RESOLVED: Don't allow !important in animations rules - it's a syntax error.
  366. # [19:05] <dbaron> Zakim, mute David_Baron
  367. # [19:05] <Zakim> David_Baron should now be muted
  368. # [19:05] <TabAtkins_> RESOLVED: Allow user !important rules to override animations (exact location of animations in the cascade level still undetermined)
  369. # [19:06] <TabAtkins_> RESOLVED: Define the override level of specificity somewhere, and decide where animations go in relation to it.
  370. # [19:06] <TabAtkins_> vhardy: If there's an issue with how SVG uses the override level, is that something to discuss with FXTF? If it's underspecified, that means that how SMIL interacts with CSS is also underdefined.
  371. # [19:06] <TabAtkins_> vhardy: I'll send an email to the FXTF.
  372. # [19:06] <TabAtkins_> plinss: Who can write some testcases for the existing at-rules with regards to !important?
  373. # [19:07] <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: I can. I've been meaning to get practice with writing tests anyway.
  374. # [19:07] <Zakim> -David_Baron
  375. # [19:07] <Zakim> -Oliver_Goldman
  376. # [19:07] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
  377. # [19:07] <Zakim> -hober
  378. # [19:07] <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
  379. # [19:07] * Parts: antonp (50a94e63@78.129.202.38)
  380. # [19:07] <Zakim> - +1.206.324.aacc
  381. # [19:07] <Zakim> -stearns
  382. # [19:07] <Zakim> -plinss
  383. # [19:07] <TabAtkins_> ACTION tab to write testcases for testing !important in at-rules
  384. # [19:07] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  385. # [19:07] <trackbot> Created ACTION-416 - Write testcases for testing !important in at-rules [on Tab Atkins Jr. - due 2012-01-11].
  386. # [19:07] <Zakim> -kojiishi
  387. # [19:07] <Zakim> -??P42
  388. # [19:07] <Zakim> -antonp
  389. # [19:07] <Zakim> -[Mozilla]
  390. # [19:07] <Zakim> -smfr
  391. # [19:07] * Quits: TabAtkins_ (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
  392. # [19:07] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
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  396. # [19:08] <Zakim> -TabAtkins_
  397. # [19:08] <Zakim> -arno
  398. # [19:09] <Zakim> - +1.415.832.aaii
  399. # [19:09] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  400. # [19:09] <Zakim> Attendees were +1.619.846.aaaa, +1.206.550.aabb, +1.206.324.aacc, +93550aadd, +1.858.354.aaee, [IPcaller], antonp, plinss, +1.281.305.aaff, Oliver_Goldman, johnjansen, David_Baron,
  401. # [19:09] <Zakim> ... +1.206.552.aagg, +1.408.636.aahh, +1.415.832.aaii, TabAtkins_, stearns, arno, smfr, +1.650.275.aajj, bradk, hober, [Microsoft], kojiishi, [Mozilla], tantek
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  412. # [19:18] <fantasai> plinss: the wiki seems confused when there are subheads without [edit] buttons
  413. # [19:19] <fantasai> e.g. http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/paris-2012#agenda
  414. # [19:19] <fantasai> plinss: the edit button picks up earlier subsections instead of later ones
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  417. # [19:24] <plinss> fantasai: yeah, weird. looks like the subhead's edit button is down one and the next edit button got pushed one down… I'll look into it
  418. # [19:25] <plinss> iirc there are supposed to be some config options for that plugin somewhere...
  419. # [19:32] <plinss> fantasai: fixed, I think… (found a newer version of the plugin)
  420. # [19:32] * Joins: tantek_ (tantek@159.63.23.38)
  421. # [19:33] <fantasai> plinss: cool, thanks
  422. # [19:34] * Quits: danielweck (danielweck@81.154.227.180) (Quit: danielweck)
  423. # [19:34] <tantek> fantasai - I always wondered about that - thought it was something I was doing wrong (edit subheads on wiki)
  424. # [19:42] <plinss> tantek: the wiki by default put the edit buttons after each section, at Tab's request I installed a plugin that moved the buttons to the top of each section. Apparently the older version had some issues with more recent versions of the wiki software
  425. # [19:43] <tantek_> aha plinss so you're the wiki admin :)
  426. # [19:44] <plinss> in general for software/install issues, yes (it's actually running on my server)
  427. # [19:52] * Quits: dstorey (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
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  429. # [20:15] <fantasai> TabAtkins: We didn't resolve the element() reference vs. ID issue, did we.
  430. # [20:16] <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/products/27
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  433. # [20:52] <TabAtkins> fantasai: No, we didn't.
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  439. # [21:09] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
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The end :)