/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2012-01-18 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Jan 18 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  9. # [01:23] <tantek> fantasai, as promised: http://www.w3.org/wiki/CSS
  10. # [01:23] <tantek> :D
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  17. # [05:09] <fantasai> tantek: nice :)
  18. # [05:14] <tantek> fantasai - I added one more ;)
  19. # [05:16] <tantek> yeah I'm pretty sure we could make a proper adventure game out of approaching CSS, learning to use it, read the specs, understanding the ways of the working group, and contributing to the advancement of specs
  20. # [05:19] <pjrm> "you are in a maze of twisty passages"
  21. # [05:21] <fantasai> tantek: A bunch of the links there go to pages that are marked as MOVED. Should the links be updated to the move destination?
  22. # [05:22] * fantasai reads the updated version and lols
  23. # [05:22] <pjrm> (*actually reads referenced webpage* Sheesh, you'd think i'd learn that i should look at the referenced webpage before posting.)
  24. # [05:22] <fantasai> :)
  25. # [05:25] <pjrm> (i must say in my defence for the other day that i was surprised that you'd already committed to cvs when the proposed text didn't meet the "clear authoring requirement" that was just about the only thing that Glenn & Boris were in agreement on.)
  26. # [05:25] <pjrm> granted, applying different styles to a single grapheme cluster is... challenging.
  27. # [05:33] <tantek> fantasai - indeed the education bits appear to have been moved around a bit.
  28. # [05:33] <tantek> I suppose that's par for the course of an adventure game - things aren't necessarily where you expect them to be.
  29. # [05:34] <fantasai> pjrm: the context that was missing from the email was in the draft to begin with ...?
  30. # [05:35] <fantasai> tantek: lol
  31. # [05:36] * Joins: shepazu (shepazu@128.30.52.169)
  32. # [05:36] <pjrm> yes, that is true. (I didn't actually know where the proposed new text was going to go, but it's true that "character" was already defined.)
  33. # [05:40] <fantasai> pjrm: Wouldn't the clear authoring requirement be on the HTML side, not the CSS side?
  34. # [05:43] <pjrm> i'm not sure what you mean; wouldn't it apply also to non-html xml/sgml-based languages?
  35. # [05:44] <fantasai> Hm, yes. I expect it's a Unicode conformance error
  36. # [05:44] <fantasai> Or should be :)
  37. # [05:44] <fantasai> Basically, it's an error at the encoding level.
  38. # [05:45] <pjrm> the case of splitting up a single code point's code units involves a unicode/encoding error, so that's (possibly) a bit different from splitting up different code points that make up a single grapheme or grapheme cluster.
  39. # [05:46] <pjrm> (I say "possibly" because Boris might argue that it should be treated in a similar way.)
  40. # [05:46] <fantasai> yes
  41. # [05:46] <fantasai> the splitting of a grapheme cluster across element boundaries is not an encoding error
  42. # [05:47] <fantasai> It might even be desireable, although it's hard to implement.
  43. # [05:47] <pjrm> one interesting subcase was the arabic one, where the codepoints actually correspond to different glyphs, so it's just the shaping context that's at issue (i.e. choice of initial/medial/final/isolate)
  44. # [05:47] <fantasai> I've left it as a warning, as jkew didn't want a SHOULD NOT
  45. # [05:47] <fantasai> yeah, if the shaping's incorrect across boundaries there, that's really a problem imo...
  46. # [05:48] <fantasai> IMO, it's worse to mis-style part of a grapheme cluster than to break joining behavior
  47. # [05:49] <fantasai> and for Arabic, there's even less of an excuse, since it doesn't use ligatures to get the correct behavior
  48. # [05:49] * Quits: tantek (tantek@70.36.139.219) (Quit: tantek)
  49. # [05:51] <pjrm> "joining behavior" ? Does that include the question of whether cursive/arabic "abc" are "joined" together in the cursive sense ("joined-up writing") even when "b" is a different font size ?
  50. # [05:52] <pjrm> incidentally, speaking of joining glyphs, does anyone here know how to do letter spacing of northern indian scripts (i.e. those with the, what do you call it, raised baseline thing, the line that joins together the letters of a word) ?
  51. # [05:53] <fantasai> In the case of Arabic, I'd say you need to choose the correct shape
  52. # [05:53] <fantasai> but it might not graphically connect if the sizes/fonts are different
  53. # [05:53] <pjrm> ok, that's what i was thinking.
  54. # [05:54] <fantasai> pjrm: don't know the details, but you should definitely use extended grapheme clusters when determining those boundaries
  55. # [05:54] <pjrm> or at least, we're currently (2012) somewhat accepting of "cursive" fonts that don't really join together.
  56. # [05:54] <fantasai> pjrm: and may need to extend them some more than what's in uax29
  57. # [05:54] <fantasai> pjrm: I've heard that the unit used for letter-spacing / :first-letter / etc. is slightly larger than an extended grapheme cluster
  58. # [05:55] <fantasai> pjrm: but I haven't heard exactly how
  59. # [05:55] <fantasai> pjrm: Eric Muller says it even varies by language
  60. # [05:56] <pjrm> uax29 does seem to hint at that with its talk of customization, though i don't know anything about that.
  61. # [05:57] <fantasai> pjrm: and the people who submitted formal "feedback" from the indic community didn't seem to understand that I needed a little more detail than "Here's a handful of examples"
  62. # [05:57] <fantasai> pjrm: in order to put together a spe
  63. # [05:57] <fantasai> c
  64. # [05:58] <pjrm> i think i remember the message you're referring to, where most of the feedback concerned browser bugs (such as incorrect shaping) rather than things that needed to be in the spec.
  65. # [05:58] <pjrm> css spec
  66. # [05:59] <fantasai> yeah, that's the one...
  67. # [06:00] <pjrm> anyway, the question i actually meant to ask was whether there's something like the indic equivalent of a tatweel/kashida glyph to be inserted at those boundaries, or whether one should draw a line "manually" (drawing commands rather than glyphs).
  68. # [06:00] <fantasai> You should space them
  69. # [06:01] <pjrm> ouch. i thought that would look horrible: i thought the point of the line was to mark the "letters" as belonging to one word, and that one wouldn't want gaps in the line.
  70. # [06:01] <fantasai> http://www.w3cindia.in/cssdocument.html#horispace
  71. # [06:01] <pjrm> thanks
  72. # [06:02] <fantasai> There's not any detail on how to find the boundaries there, but there is at least that. :)
  73. # [06:03] <pjrm> (though i do like that the gaps would be parallelograms rather than rectangles, if you see what i mean, at least for the fonts i've seen.)
  74. # [06:43] <pjrm> Something of interest that I don't see mentioned in that document is the rendering of hyphenated words (e.g. as a result of &shy;). Most indic scripts use the same hyphen character that latin script does; whereas Malayalam doesn't use any hyphenation marker at all when it splits a word over two lines.
  75. # [06:43] <pjrm> I'm told that Hindi doesn't use hyphenation; so I'm not sure what to do if a &shy; is encountered there.
  76. # [06:47] <pjrm> There are a few other interesting hyphenation cases, too. If I understand correctly, Arabic uses the tatweel/kashida character when hyphenating. (I believe only at the end of the first line and not at the beginning of the second, though I'm not certain.)
  77. # [06:48] <pjrm> Braille has a hyphen character; though a complication is that it can be used in the middle of a number, in which case the number prefix (sort of numlock character) needs to be repeated at the beginning of the next line.
  78. # [06:49] <pjrm> Unicode has a character called "Armenian hyphen", but i don't know whether that's to be used when splitting a word over two lines or if it's just for hyphenated phrases. (E.g. Hebrew has a "maqaf" character that's described as being like a hyphen, but i think that's used only for things like hyphenated phrases rather than for splitting a word over two lines.)
  79. # [06:49] <fantasai> pjrm: I'm not sure about the Arabic bit. The kashida character would look like it's extending the line if it's right after a joining character. But it doesn't look like that.
  80. # [06:49] <pjrm> Similarly, I don't know whether Mongolian should use U+1806, and whether Katakana should use U+30fb.
  81. # [06:50] <pjrm> ok. I'll check with someone.
  82. # [06:50] <fantasai> katakana doesn't hyphenate
  83. # [06:50] <fantasai> it's allowed to break anywhere
  84. # [06:50] <pjrm> with a hyphen glyph or without?
  85. # [06:51] <fantasai> pjrm: http://fantasai.inkedblade.net/style/scans/LoC025.png
  86. # [06:51] <fantasai> pjrm: without
  87. # [06:51] <pjrm> (sorry, that should have been obvious)
  88. # [06:51] <fantasai> pjrm: Japanese does not hyphenate. Breaks are allowed everywhere, except before/after certain punctuation
  89. # [06:52] <fantasai> pjrm: wrt that scan - The same character seems to be used in the middle of the line as a sort of dash
  90. # [06:52] <fantasai> pjrm: I can't read the text, though, so I can't say for sure what it's doing :)
  91. # [06:53] <pjrm> ah yes. I had a comment in the source code about "making sure it doesn't join" re arabic, but I'd forgotten what i meant by that :)
  92. # [06:53] <fantasai> pjrm: It might be that it's an actual hyphen, just the font renders it differently
  93. # [06:53] <fantasai> pjrm: The dashes in the middle of the line appear to be longer than the ones at the end
  94. # [06:54] <pjrm> that might not work well with font fallback stuff.
  95. # [06:54] <fantasai> pjrm: so it's possible one's a hyphen, the other's a dash, and the font just adjusts the glyphs
  96. # [06:54] <fantasai> pjrm: There's a lot of tweaks that have to be made as you render punctuation for different languages
  97. # [06:54] <fantasai> pjrm: or other characters, even
  98. # [06:55] <fantasai> pjrm: I don't think it's out of scope for this either
  99. # [06:55] <fantasai> pjrm: So I'd just use U+2010 for hyphenation for now, and ask people to complain as appropriate...
  100. # [06:55] <pjrm> with fraktur (the sort of slanted-equals-looking glyph for hyphens) i think it is just a font thing.
  101. # [06:55] <fantasai> pjrm: We don't know what's being used for sure, so I think that's the best route.
  102. # [06:56] <pjrm> for the interesting languages, the risk is that i wouldn't understand the e-mail that complained of it :)
  103. # [06:56] <fantasai> heh
  104. # [06:57] <fantasai> I can ask someone about Mongolian. Don't know any Uyghur experts.
  105. # [06:57] * Quits: nimbu (Adium@24.18.47.160) (Quit: Leaving.)
  106. # [06:57] <pjrm> uyghur as in the old script, or the language?
  107. # [06:58] <pjrm> i'd have thought that usually uyghur would do the normal thing of the script it's being written in.
  108. # [06:58] <fantasai> Language. Arabic, as a language, does not hyphenate.
  109. # [06:58] <fantasai> Or so I'm told.
  110. # [06:58] <fantasai> The scan there is Uyghur, IIRC.
  111. # [06:58] <pjrm> ok.
  112. # [06:58] <fantasai> It was taken from the Minority Languages section of the National Library of China
  113. # [06:59] * fantasai spoke better Chinese back then. Not much, but enough to navigate the library. :)
  114. # [07:01] * Joins: nimbu (Adium@24.18.47.160)
  115. # [07:04] <pjrm> if there are any questions about uyghur you'd like answered, then there's a layperson (i.e. doesn't work with print) that i could ask. There are a couple of uyghur restaurants about 4miles from where i live, and we know the boss of one of them just well enough to ask that sort of thing.
  116. # [07:05] <pjrm> (my wife's family is in the restaurant business.)
  117. # [07:05] <fantasai> Thanks! I think the main question is how you type those hyphens and dashes. :) And indeed, whether they are in fact dashes...
  118. # [07:05] <pjrm> :)
  119. # [07:07] <pjrm> the restaurant in question is closed at the moment (southern hemisphere summer holiday), so the answer may be a while in coming.
  120. # [07:09] <fantasai> that's okay :)
  121. # [07:17] * Joins: arronei_ (arronei@131.107.0.114)
  122. # [07:18] <fantasai> arronei_: still waiting for your minimum storage requirements report...
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  127. # [07:41] * danielfilho_ is now known as danielfilho
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  130. # [10:53] <Ms2ger> sylvaing++
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  139. # [17:18] <fantasai> arron: css3-values -- you had an action item for minimum storage reports?
  140. # [17:19] <arron> fantasai: yes I have most of the data together. I have a few more properties to gather but I should have a complete report by the end of this week.
  141. # [17:20] <fantasai> arron: cool
  142. # [17:20] <arron> fantasai: are you here in Seattle?
  143. # [17:21] <fantasai> arron: not yet; Monday night
  144. # [17:22] <arron> You are lucky. I have about a foot of snow outside right now.
  145. # [17:28] <fantasai> awesome
  146. # [17:28] <fantasai> :P
  147. # [17:32] * Joins: mollydotcom (mollyh@68.231.165.244)
  148. # [17:38] * Joins: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19)
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  150. # [17:38] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.169)
  151. # [17:38] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/01/18-css-irc
  152. # [17:38] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
  153. # [17:38] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 28 minutes
  154. # [17:38] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
  155. # [17:38] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
  156. # [17:44] * Joins: bradk (bradk@99.7.175.117)
  157. # [17:54] * bradk thinks the mailing list has gotten very noisy lately, and this time it wasn't his fault.
  158. # [17:57] * Joins: Rossen (Rossen@98.225.38.50)
  159. # [17:57] <glazou> bradk: the forum thread and others
  160. # [17:57] <glazou> agreed
  161. # [17:58] <glazou> that happens from time to time
  162. # [17:58] <bradk> I still have 184 unread messages, and I was actually caught up a couple days ago (just skimming some long threads).
  163. # [17:59] * Joins: oyvind (oyvinds@213.236.208.22)
  164. # [17:59] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  165. # [18:00] <Zakim> +arno
  166. # [18:00] <nimbu> hmm i am on the call but dont see myself :/
  167. # [18:00] <Zakim> -arno
  168. # [18:00] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  169. # [18:00] <Zakim> Attendees were arno
  170. # [18:00] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  171. # [18:01] <Zakim> +bradk
  172. # [18:01] <Zakim> +arno
  173. # [18:01] * Joins: jdaggett (jdaggett@180.235.8.216)
  174. # [18:03] * Joins: glenn (gadams@174.29.124.97)
  175. # [18:03] <Zakim> +plinss
  176. # [18:03] * Joins: antonp (50a94e63@109.169.29.95)
  177. # [18:04] <Zakim> +Molly_Holzschlag
  178. # [18:04] <Zakim> +??P26
  179. # [18:04] <nimbu> i think my number has been appropriated by arno
  180. # [18:04] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@98.232.9.174)
  181. # [18:04] <jdaggett> zakim, +??p26 is me
  182. # [18:04] <Zakim> sorry, jdaggett, I do not recognize a party named '+??p26'
  183. # [18:04] <nimbu> some how.
  184. # [18:04] <Zakim> +??P27
  185. # [18:04] <glazou> Zakim, ??P27 is me
  186. # [18:04] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
  187. # [18:04] <Zakim> +??P34
  188. # [18:04] <jdaggett> zakim, ??p26 is me
  189. # [18:04] <Zakim> +jdaggett; got it
  190. # [18:04] <Zakim> +antonp
  191. # [18:04] <nimbu> glazou: how do i change a number that has been allocated to arno to myself?
  192. # [18:05] <Zakim> +GlennAdams
  193. # [18:05] <Zakim> +??P37
  194. # [18:05] <florianr> Zakim, I am ??P37
  195. # [18:05] <Zakim> +??P36
  196. # [18:05] <fantasai> florianr: or are you P36? :)
  197. # [18:05] <fantasai> zakinm, mute P36
  198. # [18:05] <Zakim> +florianr; got it
  199. # [18:05] <florianr> not sure
  200. # [18:06] * Joins: smfr (smfr@173.228.90.114)
  201. # [18:06] <fantasai> Zakim, mute P36
  202. # [18:06] <Zakim> +[Apple]
  203. # [18:06] <hober> Zakim, Apple has me
  204. # [18:06] <Zakim> sorry, fantasai, I do not know which phone connection belongs to P36
  205. # [18:06] <Zakim> +hober; got it
  206. # [18:06] <fantasai> Zakim, mute ??P36
  207. # [18:06] <Zakim> ??P36 should now be muted
  208. # [18:06] <Zakim> +??P41
  209. # [18:06] <fantasai> zakim, florianr is fantasai
  210. # [18:06] <Rossen> Zakim, ??41 is me
  211. # [18:06] <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
  212. # [18:06] <nimbu> zakim, arno is me
  213. # [18:06] <Zakim> sorry, Rossen, I do not recognize a party named '??41'
  214. # [18:06] <fantasai> zakim ??P36 is florianr
  215. # [18:06] <Rossen> Zakim, ??P41 is me
  216. # [18:07] <Zakim> +smfr
  217. # [18:07] <Zakim> +nimbu; got it
  218. # [18:07] <Zakim> +Rossen; got it
  219. # [18:07] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@70.36.140.219)
  220. # [18:07] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  221. # [18:07] <sylvaing> Zakim, [IPcaller] is sylvaing
  222. # [18:07] <Zakim> -??P36
  223. # [18:07] <Zakim> +stearns
  224. # [18:07] <Zakim> +sylvaing; got it
  225. # [18:07] <plinss> nimbu: the zakim number to name mapping page is here: https://www.w3.org/1998/12/bridge/info/name.php3
  226. # [18:07] <Ms2ger> sylvaing, btw, I believe the process document states that WG chairs appoint editors
  227. # [18:08] <Zakim> +TabAtkins
  228. # [18:08] <Zakim> +??P53
  229. # [18:08] <florianr> Zakim, I am ??P53
  230. # [18:08] <Zakim> + +1.415.766.aaaa
  231. # [18:08] <dbaron> Zakim, aaaa is me
  232. # [18:08] <Zakim> +??P58
  233. # [18:08] <kojiishi> zakim, ??p58 is me
  234. # [18:08] <Zakim> +florianr; got it
  235. # [18:09] <Zakim> +dbaron; got it
  236. # [18:09] <sylvaing> Msger, I believe you. I'm only reporting on how the WG does it
  237. # [18:09] <Zakim> +kojiishi; got it
  238. # [18:09] <sylvaing> or are you shocked WG implementations differ from the w3c spec? :)
  239. # [18:09] <Ms2ger> Hah
  240. # [18:10] * mollydotcom did ask Sylvain to bring cheese.
  241. # [18:10] * Ms2ger mollydotcom and cheesy he is? :)
  242. # [18:10] <TabAtkins> ScribeNick: TabAtkins
  243. # [18:10] * Quits: tantek (tantek@70.36.139.219) (Ping timeout)
  244. # [18:11] <TabAtkins> Topic: Feb f2f
  245. # [18:11] <plinss> http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/paris-2012
  246. # [18:11] <TabAtkins> plinss: our agenda page is still kinda light, so please enter things as soon as you can
  247. # [18:11] <TabAtkins> glazou: I need a firm list of people attending the meeting next week because I need it for security reasons - there will be badges every day.
  248. # [18:11] <Zakim> +Bert
  249. # [18:12] <TabAtkins> glazou: Even if you don't have your flight details, please add yourself asap.
  250. # [18:12] <sylvaing> the list of msft attendees is complete. well, we even have to Alex Mogilevskys
  251. # [18:12] <TabAtkins> plinss: Also there are no hotels listed on that page yet?
  252. # [18:12] <TabAtkins> glazou: I sent an email a while back with a short list of hotels. I'll add that to the wiki page.
  253. # [18:12] * sylvaing can only eat delicious food
  254. # [18:12] <TabAtkins> glazou: One thing I'm missing is meal prefs - any food restrictions for the group meal?
  255. # [18:13] <TabAtkins> glazou: Also there is no food inside the building. So I can't get catering inside.
  256. # [18:13] <TabAtkins> glazou: They'll tolerate breakfast, so I"ll bring croissants and such, but we'll have to get lunch outside.
  257. # [18:13] <TabAtkins> glazou: Drinks are allowed.
  258. # [18:13] <TabAtkins> glazou: There's a shopping mall on the other side of the street, chinese district is walking distance, and plenty of other restaurants.
  259. # [18:14] <TabAtkins> Topic: Status of CSSOM and CSSOM View.
  260. # [18:14] * mollydotcom coca cola is a huge supporter of SOPA btw. Go Pepsi or Dr. Pepper
  261. # [18:14] <Zakim> + +1.425.246.aabb
  262. # [18:14] <TabAtkins> glenn: The work is in progress. I've been updating and will soon bring a draft forward to the group for review.
  263. # [18:14] * Joins: tpod (tpod@66.87.2.186)
  264. # [18:14] * glazou guys, don't drink coke in france, drink Orangina :-)
  265. # [18:15] <TabAtkins> sylvaing: Can you characterize the changes?
  266. # [18:15] * jdaggett wow, someone is noisy...
  267. # [18:15] * Joins: alexmog (alexmog@50.135.52.203)
  268. # [18:15] <TabAtkins> glenn: The main changes have been filling out text that was basically blank in the spec, and I'm planning to bring that forward for discussion at the f2f.
  269. # [18:16] * dbaron wonders if glazou was actually recommending eating in a Chinese restaurant in Paris
  270. # [18:16] * glazou why not
  271. # [18:16] * TabAtkins shudders at Orangina.
  272. # [18:16] <TabAtkins> Topic: Publishing Writing Modes
  273. # [18:16] * florianr loves orangina
  274. # [18:16] * glazou dbaron: you'll be fed up with french food ;-)
  275. # [18:16] <TabAtkins> plinss: We deferred this from last week, and jdaggett has sent in a bunch of comments.
  276. # [18:17] * sylvaing dbaron, the venue is not far from the Chinese district so it could happen
  277. # [18:17] <TabAtkins> jdaggett: I posted some issues that I think exist with text-orientation. I think we should let some of those discussions continue.
  278. # [18:17] <TabAtkins> jdaggett: Koji responded and I need to respond back.
  279. # [18:17] * tpod is now known as tantek
  280. # [18:17] <TabAtkins> jdaggett: I think there's some wording about text-orientation and the unicode properties, but I don't think it describes authors intent.
  281. # [18:18] * glazou wonders who calls him from Ireland for the 4th time in 3 minutes
  282. # [18:18] <TabAtkins> jdaggett: Once those list discussions seem to be resolved, I think I'll be okay.
  283. # [18:18] <tantek> Zakim, mute tantek
  284. # [18:18] <Zakim> sorry, tantek, I do not know which phone connection belongs to tantek
  285. # [18:18] * dbaron Zakim, who is on the phone?
  286. # [18:18] * Zakim sees on the phone: bradk, nimbu, plinss, Molly_Holzschlag, jdaggett, glazou, ??P34, antonp, GlennAdams, fantasai, [Apple], Rossen, smfr, sylvaing, stearns, TabAtkins, florianr,
  287. # [18:18] <TabAtkins> plinss: Anyone else have thoughts on that?
  288. # [18:18] * Zakim ... dbaron, kojiishi, Bert, +1.425.246.aabb
  289. # [18:18] <jdaggett> there's new wording for text-orientation but I don't think it accurately describes how the editors intended this should work
  290. # [18:18] * Zakim [Apple] has hober
  291. # [18:19] <jdaggett> so discussion on the list should continue for a bit I think
  292. # [18:19] <tantek> Glazou, someone selling you a .ie domain?
  293. # [18:19] <TabAtkins> florianr: I havent' followed too closely the details of these issues, but I think that what jdaggett is trying to resolve is worth figuring out.
  294. # [18:20] <TabAtkins> plinss: So do we think it's worth publishing a WD and then publish LC later?
  295. # [18:20] <glazou> tantek: paypal folks after I complained their site sucks, unable to output an activity report of 15 days without failing
  296. # [18:21] * TabAtkins missed most of what jdaggett just said due to things cutting out.
  297. # [18:21] <jdaggett> i think it's impor
  298. # [18:21] <TabAtkins> plinss: Is there a current conversation going, or does someone need to raise an issue?
  299. # [18:21] <glazou> even on IRC jdaggett is cut :-)
  300. # [18:21] <jdaggett> relates to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Jan/0655.html
  301. # [18:21] <TabAtkins> jdaggett: There's currently a convo. It just nees to resolve.
  302. # [18:22] <TabAtkins> plinss: Okay, we'll let it settle and revisit later.
  303. # [18:22] <TabAtkins> Topic: Processing Model for Transforms
  304. # [18:22] <alexmog> zakim, aabb is me
  305. # [18:22] <Zakim> +alexmog; got it
  306. # [18:22] <plinss> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Dec/0000.html
  307. # [18:23] * nimbu is reminded of Brasyl
  308. # [18:23] <TabAtkins> dbaron: Tab responded on the list, so nothing needs to be discussed here.
  309. # [18:24] <TabAtkins> Topic: Collapsed space break opportunities
  310. # [18:24] <plinss> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Jan/0408.html
  311. # [18:25] <TabAtkins> fantasai: We resolved for 2.1 that if you have two spaces that collapse and the first one is non-breaking (so the breakble one disappears) you're still allowed to break there.
  312. # [18:25] <TabAtkins> fantasai: But what happens if you have a bunch of different element boundaries? Where does this break occur?
  313. # [18:25] <TabAtkins> fantasai: If the non-breaking was within a border but the breaking was outside, does the break happen within or without the border?
  314. # [18:25] <TabAtkins> fantasai: I can see conceptually that any space is valid.
  315. # [18:25] * Joins: arno (arno@192.150.10.200)
  316. # [18:26] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Or I can see saying that the non-breaking space is now breakable, so that you must break there.
  317. # [18:26] <TabAtkins> fantasai: These both make sense to me.
  318. # [18:26] <TabAtkins> fantasai: FF and Opera will break right before the following text (last breaking opporutunity) even if that's not actually a valid break point.
  319. # [18:26] <Zakim> -nimbu
  320. # [18:26] <TabAtkins> fantasai: So I don't really know what we should do.
  321. # [18:27] <Zakim> +nimbu
  322. # [18:27] <TabAtkins> fantasai: I'm not sure I want to spec what FF/Opera does, because it doesn't make much sense.
  323. # [18:27] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: What does Webkit do?
  324. # [18:27] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Webkit refuses to render empty inlines, so it's not detectable what their behavior is.
  325. # [18:27] <TabAtkins> dbaron: Why do we collapse across visible borders?
  326. # [18:27] <TabAtkins> fantasai: I dunno.
  327. # [18:27] <TabAtkins> dbaron: It would seem less crazy if we didn't do that.
  328. # [18:28] <TabAtkins> plinss: But do you really want the presence of borders to change your whitespace-collapsing behavior?
  329. # [18:28] <TabAtkins> dbaron: Doesn't seem that different from the presence of an image.
  330. # [18:28] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: collapsing already depends on other properties.
  331. # [18:28] <TabAtkins> fantasai: I see four options.
  332. # [18:29] <TabAtkins> fantasai: (1) don't collapse spaces across non-zero borders, non-zero padding, or non-zero margins.
  333. # [18:29] <TabAtkins> fantasai: (2) anywhere a space used to be is a break point
  334. # [18:29] <TabAtkins> fantasai: (3) when a non-breaking space collapses with a breakable, the resulting space is breakable
  335. # [18:29] <TabAtkins> fantasai: (4) break right before the next thing after the collapsed stuff (even if it's not actually a valid breakpoint) (FF/Opera behavior)
  336. # [18:30] <TabAtkins> dbaron: You've got borders with width in them in this example, so you can tell whether there's one breakpoint or multiple.
  337. # [18:31] <TabAtkins> mollydotcom: If there's a non-breaking and a breakable space, they all collapse, and that point is the break point. That's #2, right?
  338. # [18:31] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Jan/0408.html
  339. # [18:31] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Not quite. When you collapse spaces, the first space nominally stays put, and the rest get dropped.
  340. # [18:31] * florianr was confused by fantasai's remark that this is different from an nbsp characher. What to I read to become smarter?
  341. # [18:31] <TabAtkins> fantasai: So I've got a space inside the no-wrap, and two empty inlines, then a B.
  342. # [18:32] * TabAtkins a space inside a no-wrap element.
  343. # [18:32] <TabAtkins> mollydotcom: The integrity of the borders shouldn't be broken, right? Doesn't that make sense?
  344. # [18:32] <TabAtkins> mollydotcom: If something breaks in a border, a designer will be confused by that.
  345. # [18:33] <TabAtkins> dbaron: If you have a multi-word thing wtih a border around it, breaking inside there is normal.
  346. # [18:33] <TabAtkins> fantasai: But you wouldn't break *just* within the border on either end.
  347. # [18:33] <TabAtkins> fantasai: And we can expand that to say you don't break inside an empty inline, because that's a degenerate case.
  348. # [18:33] <TabAtkins> fantasai: But we can break *between* the inlines.
  349. # [18:33] <TabAtkins> mollydotcom: It seems the most natural point to make the break is the first point where all the space has collapsed and there is no border.
  350. # [18:34] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: So this sounds like break opportunities at the beginning or end of an element with visible borders or whatever migrate outside of the element.
  351. # [18:34] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Yes, there's spec text for that.
  352. # [18:35] <TabAtkins> fantasai: I think what Molly's saying is that you collapse everything, then the break point must go at that last point, but if it's at the end of an element witha border or whatever, move it outside the element.
  353. # [18:35] * Quits: tantek (tpod@66.87.2.186) (Quit: Colloquy for iPod touch - http://colloquy.mobi)
  354. # [18:35] <TabAtkins> bradk: Not just borders, box-shadow too right?
  355. # [18:36] <TabAtkins> fantasai: It's all boxes, not just those with visible decorations.
  356. # [18:36] <TabAtkins> fantasai: If you thinka bout it, if you put a word in a box and put it against the edge of a line, the breakpoint is just inside the box, technically, but we instead move it outside the box.
  357. # [18:36] <TabAtkins> fantasai: So what about if the breakpoint determined by this rule is within the non-breaking area?
  358. # [18:37] <fantasai> <p><nowrap>A <em> </em></nowrap> <em> </em> B
  359. # [18:37] <dbaron> (Did that discussion just conclude something weird about what happens when the only space is just inside the edge of the border?)
  360. # [18:38] <TabAtkins> Rossen: In IE we would preserve a break oppurtunity after the </nowrap> for the case int he email.
  361. # [18:38] <TabAtkins> fantasai: And waht about the case in IRC?
  362. # [18:39] <TabAtkins> fantasai: I think the logical place would be to break after the </nowrap>, but that's between the two empty <em>s.
  363. # [18:40] <dbaron> dbaron: might have more than one breakpoint
  364. # [18:40] <TabAtkins> Rossen: We still preserve the space inside the nowrap, and break outside the nowrap.
  365. # [18:40] <TabAtkins> fantasai: If you look at teh last example, Moz breaks right before the B.
  366. # [18:41] * Quits: karl (karlcow@128.30.54.58) (Quit: Freedom - to walk free and own no superior.)
  367. # [18:41] <TabAtkins> antonp: The last example is the key one - you can't honor both nowraps unless you break in the middle.
  368. # [18:42] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: I think we want to specify that break opportunities collapse separately from the spaces that generate them, and won't enter no-break areas.
  369. # [18:42] <fantasai> fantasai^: Ok, I propose we spec what IE does, because that makes sense.
  370. # [18:42] * Joins: tantek (tantek@66.87.2.186)
  371. # [18:43] <TabAtkins> antonp: Does that mean in the second example in elika's email, the space after the A is preserved, but the whitespace collapsing between them is independent?
  372. # [18:43] * Rossen agrees with fantasai :-)
  373. # [18:43] <TabAtkins> fantasai: There's two phases to whitespace - the first collapses, the second trims from teh begin/end of the line.
  374. # [18:44] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: dbaron had an issue about borders.
  375. # [18:44] <TabAtkins> fantasai: They'll make the breaks that would visible coincide be visibly separate.
  376. # [18:44] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Once you put borders, they'll take up space, so you can see where teh break opportunity happens.
  377. # [18:45] <TabAtkins> mollydotcom: If you ahve content, and it's right up to the border, it would be devasating to have a break right at the end.
  378. # [18:46] <TabAtkins> fantasai: The migration rule applies to all elements, regardless of decoration. So that addresses david's issue.
  379. # [18:46] * dbaron thinks TabAtkins isn't minuting his own statements sufficiently
  380. # [18:47] <TabAtkins> bradk: What if you have a zero-width box with a box-shadow at the end of a line (and a space inside of it)?
  381. # [18:47] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: I think it would migrate the break opportunity both before and after the box, so the break would happen before it.
  382. # [18:47] <TabAtkins> fantasai: box-shadow doesn't take up sapce, so it's not detectable.
  383. # [18:47] <fantasai> s/not detectable/doesn't affect layout/
  384. # [18:47] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: But the box-shadow lets you tell whether the box is at the end of one line or the beginning of the next.
  385. # [18:48] <TabAtkins> antonp: There was a convo about a year ago with Boris about this issue - whether zero-width boxes stay at the end of a line or wrap around.
  386. # [18:48] <TabAtkins> antonp: So it may be wroth digging that up.
  387. # [18:49] <TabAtkins> dbaron: Another warning - a fun thing to introduce in text cases is negative margins.
  388. # [18:49] <TabAtkins> dbaron: They can give you cases where adding more stuff to the line gives you an earlier breakpoint.
  389. # [18:49] <TabAtkins> mollydotcom: I was jsut imagining that.
  390. # [18:50] <TabAtkins> dbaron: I don't know if we properly define, given a set of breakpoints, how you choose the one that is actually used.
  391. # [18:50] <antonp> neg margin was, I think, the main subject of the convo I was referring to IIRC
  392. # [18:50] <TabAtkins> dbaron: Because there may be a set of breakpoints that are not monotonically non-precessing in the line direction, due to negative margins.
  393. # [18:50] * sylvaing will likely be parsing what dbaron just said until the end of the call...
  394. # [18:51] <TabAtkins> mollydotcom: [explains an issue]
  395. # [18:51] <dbaron> s/set/sequence/
  396. # [18:51] <TabAtkins> plinss: I think it just changes where the breakpoint would be between two elements.
  397. # [18:51] <dbaron> s/non-precessing/non-decreasing/
  398. # [18:51] <TabAtkins> mollydotcom: It seems that even getting down to that level - why would we want it? I would avoid those.
  399. # [18:51] <Bert> (A line might be overfull already, but after adding the next elt with negative margins, it is suddenly no longer full...)
  400. # [18:51] * oyvind not monotonically non-decreasing? confused now
  401. # [18:52] * TabAtkins dbaron I went with precessing because we were talking about a position, not a value.
  402. # [18:52] * dbaron oyvind, they might have some steps in the sequence with decreases
  403. # [18:52] * mollydotcom sez keep it simple - avoid any breaking where there might be a margin or border
  404. # [18:52] * sylvaing oyvind, yes this is the one I'm parsing :)
  405. # [18:53] <TabAtkins> fantasai: We don't define which breakpoint gets chosen, only where the possible breaks are.
  406. # [18:53] <TabAtkins> fantasai: This is intentional, so you can frex do paragraph-level breaking/balancing instead of line-level.
  407. # [18:53] <sylvaing> i can't object to that
  408. # [18:53] <TabAtkins> fantasai: So I think we're done with this issue if everyone's happy with IE's behavior.
  409. # [18:54] <TabAtkins> glenn: We're defining sematnics for what is breakpoint or not. Is this meant to be normative to all scenarios, or just in the absence of a higher-level protocol.
  410. # [18:55] <TabAtkins> florianr: The intent is that any breaking algorithm can pick between the breaking points we define. It can choose any of them, but it shouldnt' break at anywhere that doesnt' produce a breaking point.
  411. # [18:58] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: For example, a more advanced mechanism that does hyphenation by finding more breakpoints inside of words.
  412. # [18:58] <TabAtkins> glenn: I ask because languages like Thai uses a dictionary to determine breakpoints.
  413. # [18:58] <TabAtkins> fantasai: I suggest you read the section on line-breaking, because it covers all this.
  414. # [18:58] <Bert> (Even with 'overflow-wrap: break-word', there won't be a break between the last letter and the border, I assume?)
  415. # [18:58] <TabAtkins> RESOLUTION: Breaks are allowed wherever there was a breakpoint, even if it was collapsed away.
  416. # [18:58] * Ms2ger suspects ignoring the @import guy for a while would be more productive
  417. # [18:58] * TabAtkins bert, yes, I think
  418. # [18:59] <TabAtkins> Topic: currentColor and inheritance in text-decorations
  419. # [18:59] <TabAtkins> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Jan/0521.html
  420. # [18:59] <TabAtkins> fantasai: The problem is that currentColor *computes* to the color value, then inherits as that color.
  421. # [18:59] <TabAtkins> fantasai: We need one that turns into the color at used value time.
  422. # [19:00] <TabAtkins> fantasai: text-emphasis-color takes a color. By default, they should take the color of the text.
  423. # [19:00] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Right now, you computed color on the root element of the document, then use that throughout the document.
  424. # [19:00] <TabAtkins> dbaron: So it sounds like we want a new value.
  425. # [19:01] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Yes, but there are other places where we may want this behavior - text-shadow is one such case.
  426. # [19:02] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: Small issue - because computed value is used for multiple things, if it stays as the keyword in computed value, it won't transition.
  427. # [19:02] <TabAtkins> dbaron: I'd have to look into it, but I think this would be quite a bit more work to implement for text-shadow than for text-emphasis-color.
  428. # [19:03] <TabAtkins> fantasai: You already implement it for text-shadow.
  429. # [19:03] <TabAtkins> dbaron: We implement currentColor, but not the thing that has to inherit not as a color.
  430. # [19:03] <fantasai> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cstyle%3E%0Abody%20{%20text-shadow%3A%200%200%204px%3B%20}%0A%3C%2Fstyle%3E%0A%0ASOME%20TEXT%20%3Cem%20style%3D%22color%3A%20red%22%3EMore%20text%3C%2Fem%3E%0A
  431. # [19:03] <TabAtkins> fantasai: That's not true - you do implement it. Testcase coming.
  432. # [19:04] <TabAtkins> dbaron: It's the "no-color" case. It's not defined, but everyone uses this behavior.
  433. # [19:04] <TabAtkins> plinss: So we just need a keyword for this behavior.
  434. # [19:04] <tantek> stayCurrentColor
  435. # [19:04] <tantek> ;)
  436. # [19:04] <nimbu> :)))
  437. # [19:04] <TabAtkins> Bert: Too late to change currentColor?
  438. # [19:04] <tantek> elementColor
  439. # [19:05] <glenn> CSS3 ยง4 answers my question "CSS does not fully define where line breaking opportunities occur"
  440. # [19:05] <glenn> s/CSS3/CSS3 Text/
  441. # [19:05] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: Given the small usage of currentColor, we probably could.
  442. # [19:05] <TabAtkins> fantasai: And basically no one inherits, say, a border-color.
  443. # [19:05] <tantek> remember, we got the term 'currentColor' from SVG
  444. # [19:06] <tantek> so if they're dependent on a specific interpretation...
  445. # [19:06] <dbaron> I think Gecko's implementation of the default border-color and outline-color actually works this way rather than the way currentColor works
  446. # [19:06] <TabAtkins> dbaron: In FF, we actually implement border-color and outline-color in this way, because it's cheaper than the actual implementation for currentColor.
  447. # [19:06] <tantek> otherwise we would have called it 'current-color'
  448. # [19:06] <TabAtkins> fantasai: We should check with SVG on this.
  449. # [19:06] * tantek dislikes camelCase
  450. # [19:06] <TabAtkins> plinss: Is there any use-case for the current currentColor behavior? Would we lose anything from it?
  451. # [19:06] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: I can take this to SVG and see what they say.
  452. # [19:06] <fantasai> fantasai^: If we want to redefine currentColor
  453. # [19:07] <Zakim> -jdaggett
  454. # [19:07] <Zakim> -TabAtkins
  455. # [19:07] <tantek> thanks Tab
  456. # [19:07] <Zakim> -dbaron
  457. # [19:07] <Zakim> -nimbu
  458. # [19:07] <Zakim> -stearns
  459. # [19:07] * Quits: smfr (smfr@173.228.90.114) (Quit: smfr)
  460. # [19:07] <Zakim> -smfr
  461. # [19:07] * Quits: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19) (Quit: glazou)
  462. # [19:07] <Zakim> -glazou
  463. # [19:07] <Zakim> -??P34
  464. # [19:07] <Zakim> -kojiishi
  465. # [19:08] <Zakim> -bradk
  466. # [19:08] <Zakim> -florianr
  467. # [19:08] * Quits: antonp (50a94e63@109.169.29.95) (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
  468. # [19:08] <Zakim> -Bert
  469. # [19:08] <Zakim> -Molly_Holzschlag
  470. # [19:08] <Zakim> -antonp
  471. # [19:08] <Zakim> -[Apple]
  472. # [19:08] <Zakim> -plinss
  473. # [19:08] <Zakim> -alexmog
  474. # [19:08] * Quits: kojiishi (kojiishi@222.158.227.129) (Quit: Leaving...)
  475. # [19:08] <Zakim> -Rossen
  476. # [19:08] <Zakim> -fantasai
  477. # [19:08] <Zakim> -GlennAdams
  478. # [19:08] * Parts: arron (Arron@24.17.123.244)
  479. # [19:09] * Parts: glenn (gadams@174.29.124.97) (Leaving...)
  480. # [19:11] <Bert> Fantasai, should we plan something for after the ftf in Paris? I'll come by train and my ticket can be modified, so I'm flexible.
  481. # [19:12] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@70.36.140.219) (Ping timeout)
  482. # [19:12] <fantasai> Bert: Sure
  483. # [19:13] * Quits: bradk (bradk@99.7.175.117) (Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/ )
  484. # [19:13] <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, sylvaing, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
  485. # [19:13] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  486. # [19:13] <Zakim> Attendees were bradk, plinss, Molly_Holzschlag, glazou, jdaggett, antonp, GlennAdams, hober, fantasai, smfr, nimbu, Rossen, stearns, sylvaing, TabAtkins, +1.415.766.aaaa, florianr,
  487. # [19:13] <Zakim> ... dbaron, kojiishi, Bert, +1.425.246.aabb, alexmog
  488. # [19:13] <Bert> Haven't thought about location yet, but let's start with the dates.
  489. # [19:14] <Bert> I may have to do some visits of a few hours as well.
  490. # [19:14] <fantasai> Bert: Okay. Let's work on stuff Thurs/Fri -- I'm flexible, aside from possibly dialing into the UTC meeting
  491. # [19:15] <fantasai> Bert: And if we need more time, I can also take the train down to Sophia
  492. # [19:15] <fantasai> the week after
  493. # [19:16] <fantasai> Bert: I'm guessing we will need more time, if we're to tackle *all* of CSS3 layout ;)
  494. # [19:16] * Quits: jdaggett (jdaggett@180.235.8.216) (Quit: jdaggett)
  495. # [19:16] <Bert> I have time that week, so no problem.
  496. # [19:16] <fantasai> great
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The end :)