/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2012-02-22 / end

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  17. # [02:34] <TabAtkin1_> fantasai: I'm working on finishing out the DoC, but what you started at http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-images/lc-issues-1.txt (and I've kept up-to-date with every issue) is sufficient, right?
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  34. # [04:18] * Topic is 'CSS Working Group | logged at http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/'
  35. # [04:18] * Set by dbaron on Wed Oct 12 01:04:03
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  90. # [17:35] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/02/22-css-irc
  91. # [17:35] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.169)
  92. # [17:35] <plinss> zakim, this will be style
  93. # [17:35] <Zakim> ok, plinss; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 32 minutes
  94. # [17:49] * Joins: hober (ted@174.143.153.77)
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  96. # [17:57] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  97. # [17:57] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  98. # [17:58] <florianr> Zakim, I am [IPcaller]
  99. # [17:58] <Zakim> ok, florianr, I now associate you with [IPcaller]
  100. # [18:01] * Joins: oyvind (oyvinds@213.236.208.22)
  101. # [18:02] * Joins: Phil (pcupp@131.107.0.81)
  102. # [18:02] <Zakim> +??P45
  103. # [18:02] * Joins: bradk (bradk@99.7.175.117)
  104. # [18:02] <glenn> zakim, who's here?
  105. # [18:02] <Zakim> On the phone I see [IPcaller], ??P45
  106. # [18:02] <Zakim> On IRC I see bradk, Phil, oyvind, hober, Zakim, RRSAgent, cabanier, arno, Ms2ger, danielfilho, rworth, glenn, nimbu, myakura, drublic, florianr, leaverou, fantasai, vhardy,
  107. # [18:02] <Zakim> ... sylvaing, alexmog, plinss, paul___irish, ed, shans, kojiishi, gsnedders, TabAtkins, CSSWG_LogBot, stearns, krijnh, lhnz, SimonSapin, jdaggett, arronei, shepazu, Bert,
  108. # [18:02] <Zakim> ... macpherson, Hixie, trackbot
  109. # [18:03] <glenn> zakim, i am [IPcaller]
  110. # [18:03] <Zakim> ok, glenn, I now associate you with [IPcaller]
  111. # [18:03] <Zakim> +plinss
  112. # [18:03] <glenn> zakim, who's here?
  113. # [18:03] <Zakim> On the phone I see [IPcaller], ??P45, plinss
  114. # [18:03] <Zakim> On IRC I see bradk, Phil, oyvind, hober, Zakim, RRSAgent, cabanier, arno, Ms2ger, danielfilho, rworth, glenn, nimbu, myakura, drublic, florianr, leaverou, fantasai, vhardy,
  115. # [18:03] <Zakim> ... sylvaing, alexmog, plinss, paul___irish, ed, shans, kojiishi, gsnedders, TabAtkins, CSSWG_LogBot, stearns, krijnh, lhnz, SimonSapin, jdaggett, arronei, shepazu, Bert,
  116. # [18:03] <Zakim> ... macpherson, Hixie, trackbot
  117. # [18:03] <Zakim> + +1.650.275.aaaa
  118. # [18:03] <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
  119. # [18:03] <bradk> Zakim, aaaa is me
  120. # [18:03] <Zakim> +bradk; got it
  121. # [18:04] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  122. # [18:04] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  123. # [18:04] <florianr> Zakim, I am [IPcaller]
  124. # [18:04] <Zakim> ok, florianr, I now associate you with [IPcaller]
  125. # [18:04] * Joins: antonp (50a94e63@207.192.75.252)
  126. # [18:04] <plinss> zakim, who is on the phone?
  127. # [18:04] <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P45, plinss, bradk, [Microsoft], [IPcaller]
  128. # [18:04] <glenn> i'll drop and recall
  129. # [18:05] <Zakim> -??P45
  130. # [18:05] <Zakim> + +1.206.324.aabb
  131. # [18:05] <Zakim> +??P9
  132. # [18:05] <Zakim> +??P38
  133. # [18:05] <glenn> zakim, i am +??P38
  134. # [18:05] <Zakim> sorry, glenn, I do not see a party named '+??P38'
  135. # [18:06] <glenn> zakim, i am ??P38
  136. # [18:06] <Zakim> +glenn; got it
  137. # [18:06] <Zakim> +nimbu
  138. # [18:06] <plinss> zakim, [IPcaller] has florianr
  139. # [18:06] <Zakim> +florianr; got it
  140. # [18:06] <Zakim> +[Apple]
  141. # [18:06] <plinss> zakim, who is on the phone
  142. # [18:06] <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the phone', plinss
  143. # [18:06] <hober> Zakim, Apple has me
  144. # [18:06] <Zakim> +hober; got it
  145. # [18:06] <Zakim> +antonp
  146. # [18:06] * Quits: lhnz (lhnz@188.223.83.48) (Quit: Leaving)
  147. # [18:06] <plinss> zakim, who is on the phone?
  148. # [18:06] <Zakim> On the phone I see plinss, bradk, [Microsoft], [IPcaller], +1.206.324.aabb, ??P9, glenn, nimbu, [Apple], antonp
  149. # [18:06] <Zakim> [IPcaller] has florianr
  150. # [18:06] <Zakim> [Apple] has hober
  151. # [18:06] * Joins: dstorey (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  152. # [18:07] <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
  153. # [18:07] <sylvaing> Zakim, aabb is sylvaing
  154. # [18:07] <Zakim> +sylvaing; got it
  155. # [18:07] * Joins: smfr (smfr@17.212.152.232)
  156. # [18:07] <Zakim> +stearns
  157. # [18:07] <Zakim> -bradk
  158. # [18:07] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
  159. # [18:07] * Joins: danielweck (danielweck@81.154.227.92)
  160. # [18:07] <arronei> zakim, microsoft has me
  161. # [18:07] <Zakim> +arronei; got it
  162. # [18:08] <plinss> zakim, [Mozilla] has dbaron
  163. # [18:08] <Zakim> +dbaron; got it
  164. # [18:08] <plinss> zakim, who is on the phone?
  165. # [18:08] <Zakim> On the phone I see plinss, [Microsoft], [IPcaller], sylvaing, ??P9, glenn, nimbu, [Apple], antonp, [Mozilla], stearns, [Microsoft.a]
  166. # [18:08] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has arronei
  167. # [18:08] <Zakim> [IPcaller] has florianr
  168. # [18:08] <bradk> doh!
  169. # [18:08] <Zakim> [Apple] has hober
  170. # [18:08] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@159.63.23.38)
  171. # [18:08] <stearns> Zakim, who is noisy?
  172. # [18:08] <Zakim> [Mozilla] has dbaron
  173. # [18:08] <Zakim> +smfr
  174. # [18:08] <Zakim> + +1.408.536.aacc
  175. # [18:08] <Zakim> -glenn
  176. # [18:08] * Joins: vhardy_ (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  177. # [18:08] <Zakim> stearns, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glenn (3%), [IPcaller] (43%)
  178. # [18:08] <smfr> i really don't need to know that this is a customized something something conferencing system
  179. # [18:08] <Zakim> +??P75
  180. # [18:08] <hober> heh
  181. # [18:08] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.aa]
  182. # [18:08] <Zakim> +bradk
  183. # [18:08] <stearns> I like hearing the word 'cybernetic'
  184. # [18:09] <Zakim> +??P79
  185. # [18:09] <glenn> zakim, ??P79 is me
  186. # [18:09] <Zakim> +glenn; got it
  187. # [18:09] <dbaron> Zakim is a customized Compunetix Contex Conferencing system
  188. # [18:09] <stearns> I think we're hearing IPcaller's heartbeat
  189. # [18:09] * Joins: Rossen (Rossen@131.107.0.87)
  190. # [18:09] <stearns> ah, I've been hearing that wrong all along
  191. # [18:09] <smfr> Zakim: who is noisy?
  192. # [18:10] <smfr> Zakim, who is noisy?
  193. # [18:10] <dbaron> Zakim, mute [IPcaller]
  194. # [18:10] <Zakim> [IPcaller] should now be muted
  195. # [18:10] * Joins: kimberly (Kimberly@68.81.71.240)
  196. # [18:10] <Zakim> smfr, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 17 (53%), [Mozilla] (33%), [IPcaller] (9%)
  197. # [18:10] <Rossen> Zakim, mute me
  198. # [18:10] <Zakim> sorry, Rossen, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
  199. # [18:10] <Zakim> + +1.215.286.aadd
  200. # [18:10] <kimberly> Zakim, +aadd is me
  201. # [18:10] <Zakim> sorry, kimberly, I do not recognize a party named '+aadd'
  202. # [18:10] <Zakim> +Bert
  203. # [18:10] <kimberly> Zakim, +1.215.286.aadd is me
  204. # [18:10] <Zakim> +kimberly; got it
  205. # [18:10] * Joins: katie (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  206. # [18:10] * florianr seems to be muted, but I am not sure I was the source of the noise
  207. # [18:11] * plinss yes, you were
  208. # [18:11] <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
  209. # [18:11] * sylvaing I think it's vendor prefixes. THEY'RE ALIVE!
  210. # [18:11] * dbaron kimberly, "aadd" should work, without the plus
  211. # [18:11] <Zakim> +tantek
  212. # [18:11] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
  213. # [18:11] * florianr has learned to breathe quietly. How do I unmute?
  214. # [18:11] <dstorey> I'm on the call but not sure which Id thingy i am
  215. # [18:11] <plinss> zakim, unmute [IPcaller]
  216. # [18:11] <Zakim> [IPcaller] should no longer be muted
  217. # [18:11] <Zakim> +??P88
  218. # [18:12] * shepazu Zakim, who's here?
  219. # [18:12] * Zakim sees on the phone: plinss, [Microsoft], [IPcaller], sylvaing, ??P9, nimbu, [Apple], antonp, [Mozilla], stearns, smfr, +1.408.536.aacc, ??P75, [Microsoft.aa], bradk, glenn,
  220. # [18:12] <danielweck> Zakim, ??P88 is me
  221. # [18:12] * Zakim ... kimberly, Bert, [IPcaller.a], tantek, ??P88
  222. # [18:12] * Zakim [Microsoft] has arronei
  223. # [18:12] * Zakim [IPcaller] has florianr
  224. # [18:12] * Zakim [Apple] has hober
  225. # [18:12] * Zakim [Mozilla] has dbaron
  226. # [18:12] * Zakim sees on irc: katie, kimberly, Rossen, vhardy_, dbaron, danielweck, smfr, dstorey, antonp, bradk, Phil, oyvind, hober, Zakim, RRSAgent, cabanier, arno, Ms2ger, danielfilho, rworth,
  227. # [18:12] * Zakim ... glenn, nimbu, myakura, drublic, florianr, leaverou, fantasai, vhardy, sylvaing, alexmog, plinss, paul___irish, ed, shans, kojiishi, gsnedders, TabAtkins, CSSWG_LogBot, stearns,
  228. # [18:12] * Zakim ... krijnh, SimonSapin, jdaggett, arronei, shepazu, Bert, macpherson, Hixie, trackbot
  229. # [18:12] <Zakim> +danielweck; got it
  230. # [18:12] * Joins: tantek (tantek@70.36.139.112)
  231. # [18:12] <plinss> dstorey: http://www.w3.org/2006/tools/wiki/Zakim_Tips
  232. # [18:12] <Zakim> + +1.206.427.aaee
  233. # [18:13] <tantek> Zakim, who is on the phone?
  234. # [18:13] <Zakim> On the phone I see plinss, [Microsoft], [IPcaller], sylvaing, ??P9, nimbu, [Apple], antonp, [Mozilla], stearns, smfr, +1.408.536.aacc, ??P75, [Microsoft.aa], bradk, glenn,
  235. # [18:13] <Zakim> ... kimberly, Bert, [IPcaller.a], tantek, danielweck, +1.206.427.aaee
  236. # [18:13] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has arronei
  237. # [18:13] <Zakim> [IPcaller] has florianr
  238. # [18:13] <Zakim> [Apple] has hober
  239. # [18:13] <Zakim> [Mozilla] has dbaron
  240. # [18:13] <nimbu> I can be the scribe
  241. # [18:13] <katie> katie on the phone...
  242. # [18:13] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
  243. # [18:13] <nimbu> plinss: anything to add to agenda?
  244. # [18:14] <smfr> nimbu: i think you need to say scribenick: nimbu
  245. # [18:14] <nimbu> sylvaing: YPF asked for extension and we havent heard back
  246. # [18:14] <dbaron> ScribeNick: nimbu
  247. # [18:14] <nimbu> fantasai: is there anything to discuss other than Last publishing update?
  248. # [18:14] <fantasai> s/Last/grid
  249. # [18:15] * Joins: SteveZ (chatzilla@24.6.120.172)
  250. # [18:15] <nimbu> dbaron: there are transition issues worth discussing
  251. # [18:15] <dbaron> s/transition/css3-transitions/
  252. # [18:15] * sylvaing very much likes dbaron's list. must do the same for animations
  253. # [18:15] <nimbu> plinss: request from SVG for face to face currently scheduled for half a day, request for full day.
  254. # [18:15] <nimbu> dbaron: not clear to me what is covered under that, and what is covered under our own meeting
  255. # [18:15] <nimbu> vhardy: under FX we have transforms, filters, compositing
  256. # [18:16] <Zakim> +SteveZ
  257. # [18:16] <nimbu> dbaron: we have an awful lot of stuff we need to cover too
  258. # [18:16] <sylvaing> s/YPF/WAIPF
  259. # [18:16] * Joins: TabAtkins_ (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  260. # [18:16] <nimbu> florianr: transforms, I agree, we need to talk about that. Rest of them, is there anything urgent.
  261. # [18:17] <nimbu> plinss: any other logistical updates for the F2F?
  262. # [18:17] <dbaron> http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/hamburg-2012
  263. # [18:17] <stearns> one possibility is to meet together for transforms, then split into two groups for the rest of the day
  264. # [18:17] <nimbu> vhardy: if people need hotels let us know as soon as possible. Also want to know if we can release the holds we had on the hotels.
  265. # [18:17] * TabAtkins_ is stuck between either having internet or having phone right now.
  266. # [18:17] * TabAtkins_ chose internet.
  267. # [18:17] <stearns> where some CSS people could continue to meet with the FX group
  268. # [18:17] <nimbu> vhardy: by end of week we would release the hold.
  269. # [18:17] * Joins: howcome (howcome@88.89.78.85)
  270. # [18:18] <nimbu> plinss: requests to publish specs, variables - first WD.
  271. # [18:18] <nimbu> florianr: worth mentioning as an issue in the draft, naming of these things is still under debate.
  272. # [18:18] <nimbu> florianr: other than that i am all for it.
  273. # [18:18] <nimbu> plinss: anyone else?
  274. # [18:18] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: Skype is your friend
  275. # [18:18] <nimbu> RESOLVED: Publish variables as first working draft
  276. # [18:19] * nimbu has forgotten how to assign action items
  277. # [18:19] <danielweck> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-speech/
  278. # [18:19] * fantasai ACTION:
  279. # [18:19] <dbaron> ACTION Tab ensure variables is published as FPWD
  280. # [18:19] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  281. # [18:19] <trackbot> Created ACTION-447 - Ensure variables is published as FPWD [on Tab Atkins Jr. - due 2012-02-29].
  282. # [18:19] <nimbu> plinss: speech - danielweck wants to take that to CR
  283. # [18:19] <danielweck> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css3-speech
  284. # [18:19] <danielweck> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-speech/
  285. # [18:19] <Zakim> +howcome
  286. # [18:19] * florianr tab, do you need an action to remember to add an isue about whether variables should be named data- or var- or something else?
  287. # [18:19] * TabAtkins_ fantasai, I don't think I can get a reliable voice connection out of my current internet.
  288. # [18:20] <dbaron> and previous item was http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-variables/
  289. # [18:20] <TabAtkins_> florianr: No, I'll be making some edits shortly.
  290. # [18:20] <nimbu> RESOLVED take css-speech to CR
  291. # [18:20] <danielweck> thank you!
  292. # [18:20] <nimbu> (any action items here?)
  293. # [18:20] * sylvaing likes the smell of CRs in the morning
  294. # [18:20] * fantasai :)
  295. # [18:21] <nimbu> plinss: any objections to publish another update to ??
  296. # [18:21] <smfr> publish what?
  297. # [18:21] <Zakim> +cabanier
  298. # [18:21] <nimbu> RESOLVED: Publish an updated working draft of the grid specification
  299. # [18:22] <nimbu> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-grid-align/
  300. # [18:22] <Zakim> +??P2
  301. # [18:22] <nimbu> florianr: i think it would be better to have everything under the same repo
  302. # [18:22] <danielweck> +1
  303. # [18:22] <smfr> +1
  304. # [18:22] <kojiishi> zakim, ??p2 is me
  305. # [18:22] <Zakim> +kojiishi; got it
  306. # [18:22] <nimbu> plinss: agree
  307. # [18:22] <Ms2ger> s/??/Grid/
  308. # [18:22] <TabAtkins_> +1
  309. # [18:23] * Ms2ger thinks it doesn't make sense to stick everything in one repo
  310. # [18:23] <fantasai> florianr: Because we share some files and we split and move and merge specs
  311. # [18:23] <nimbu> plinss: would be useful for us to switch en-masse
  312. # [18:24] <nimbu> fantasai: glenn is the pioneer in this respect, otherwise it would be easy to co-ordinate if we move all at once.
  313. # [18:24] <nimbu> fantasai: put a black out for ?? hours stating no check-ins
  314. # [18:24] <nimbu> fantasai: we need to get a couple of things set up on our server and make sure the documentation is all there.
  315. # [18:24] <glenn> system team says they're looking into auto checkout but no schedule yet
  316. # [18:25] <nimbu> florianr: we should block check-ins permanently in CVS
  317. # [18:25] <nimbu> fantasai: files should be deleted in cvs
  318. # [18:25] <nimbu> florianr: keep them in read-only mode.
  319. # [18:25] <nimbu> fantasai: the cvs repo will be out of date, files should be deleted and old be redirected.
  320. # [18:25] <nimbu> fantasai: if you go back to the revisions you will find them.
  321. # [18:26] <nimbu> dbaron: use cvs remove
  322. # [18:26] <nimbu> plinss: easier to do if we have one repo rather than n repositories
  323. # [18:26] <Zakim> -??P75
  324. # [18:26] <nimbu> fantasai: resolve on doing either one per spec or one per file.
  325. # [18:26] <glenn> +1
  326. # [18:26] <nimbu> plinss: i just want agreement that we are going to do this.
  327. # [18:26] <smfr> +1
  328. # [18:26] <nimbu> florianr: i am good.
  329. # [18:27] <nimbu> plinss: anyone going to freakout if we are moving from cvs to mercurial
  330. # [18:27] <Zakim> +??P7
  331. # [18:27] <nimbu> ?? the issue seems to be if we can set checkout anytime soon, there is no ETA for what that involves
  332. # [18:27] <sylvaing> i'm in favor
  333. # [18:27] <Rossen> Zakim, Microsoft has me
  334. # [18:27] <Zakim> +Rossen; got it
  335. # [18:27] <dstorey> zakim, ??P7 is me
  336. # [18:27] <Zakim> +dstorey; got it
  337. # [18:27] <Ms2ger> Note that the auto-checkout works fine for webapps
  338. # [18:27] <nimbu> florianr: eventually current urls will redirect or move to new urls permanently
  339. # [18:27] <nimbu> fantasai: ursl on www.w3.org will stop working, they will redirect
  340. # [18:28] <nimbu> fantasai: new system will be on csswg.org
  341. # [18:28] <fantasai> s/system/checkout/
  342. # [18:28] <nimbu> fantasai: if they get an ETA from systems team on checkout, we can redirect from csswg to there.
  343. # [18:28] <fantasai> s/www/dev/
  344. # [18:28] <Ms2ger> What's wrong with http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/css/raw-file/tip/values/Overview.html, say?
  345. # [18:28] <stearns> s/ursl/urls/
  346. # [18:29] <fantasai> Ms2ger, doesn't serve files over Apache, which means we're missing configs like DirectoryIndex, Redirect, etc.
  347. # [18:29] <nimbu> howcome: could we ask the sytems team what is necessary to make it work? it doesnt seem to be an issue for other groups to create repo and get it served.
  348. # [18:29] <sylvaing> (think that was tantek)
  349. # [18:29] <nimbu> plinss: i think somebody asked them and they said they dont know when they can do it
  350. # [18:29] <nimbu> oops
  351. # [18:29] <nimbu> s/howcome/tantek
  352. # [18:29] <nimbu> ?? the problem is 3 different published urls for editorial drafts
  353. # [18:30] <nimbu> plinss: we can maintain mirror on csswg definitely, regardless of it existing elsewhere or not.
  354. # [18:30] <nimbu> tantek: seems like extra admin.
  355. # [18:30] <nimbu> plinss: its just me i can set up the cron job and keep it going forever.
  356. # [18:30] <nimbu> florianr: we can have a script hook so it can get updated whenever any chage gets pushed?
  357. # [18:30] <Ms2ger> That exists for the test repos, fwiw
  358. # [18:31] <nimbu> plinss: if we can get it set up on dvcs server yes.
  359. # [18:31] * Quits: TabAtkins_ (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
  360. # [18:31] * Joins: TabAtkins_ (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  361. # [18:32] <glenn> until the new uber-repo is set up, i'll continue using my new cssom repos, then will merge into the uber-repo
  362. # [18:32] <nimbu> RESOLVED Have one repository for all our specs
  363. # [18:32] <nimbu> TOPIC: CSS Transforms
  364. # [18:32] <nimbu> plinss: svg group resolved to publish first WG, we should also resolve …on that
  365. # [18:32] <smfr> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-transforms/
  366. # [18:33] <nimbu> plinss: should be a no brainer.
  367. # [18:33] <Ms2ger> How much will this delay getting 2D Transforms to CR?
  368. # [18:33] <nimbu> fantasai: i object to publishing unless the issues link is linked from the draft
  369. # [18:33] <ed> s/WG/WD
  370. # [18:33] <fantasai> s/issues link/issues list/
  371. # [18:33] <nimbu> tantek: i think if we resolve on accepting Aryeh as co-editor we can accept that action.
  372. # [18:33] <nimbu> dbaron: you can copy the one I put in transitions and animations
  373. # [18:34] <nimbu> plinss: agreement to publish with an update to the issues list?
  374. # [18:34] <nimbu> plinss: anyone object to adding aryeh as editor?
  375. # [18:34] <nimbu> RESOLVED: Add Aryeh as editor
  376. # [18:34] <nimbu> RESOLVED: Publish first WD of transforms with the issues list.
  377. # [18:34] <nimbu> (any actions?)
  378. # [18:35] <dbaron> s/with the issues list/with the link to the issues list/
  379. # [18:35] <Bert> (As it is listed as a CSS WD, I guess the action is on me to procure the Director's approval and publish...)
  380. # [18:35] <nimbu> vhardy: aryeh sent an issue with a description.
  381. # [18:35] <fantasai> ACTION: ChrisL Publish css3-transforms
  382. # [18:35] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  383. # [18:35] * RRSAgent records action 1
  384. # [18:35] <trackbot> Created ACTION-448 - Publish css3-transforms [on Chris Lilley - due 2012-02-29].
  385. # [18:36] * Bert thanks fantasai :-)
  386. # [18:36] <fantasai> RRSAgent: pointer
  387. # [18:36] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2012/02/22-css-irc#T17-29-32
  388. # [18:36] <fantasai> RRSAgent: make logs public
  389. # [18:36] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, fantasai
  390. # [18:36] <dbaron> Gecko has a patch implementing the new background-position syntax
  391. # [18:36] <nimbu> smfr: the issue is the transforms spec has two properties transform-origin and perspective-origin, intention was to match the spec on bg position. the syntax has changed relatively recently, not many browsers have implemented it yet.
  392. # [18:36] <dbaron> (but it keeps transform-origin the same as it was)
  393. # [18:37] <nimbu> smfr: transforms has z position, with new bg position, there is ambiguity between the new syntax. Aryeh suggested a number of possibilities
  394. # [18:37] <nimbu> smfr: 1. should transform-o and perspective-o follow bg-position?
  395. # [18:37] <nimbu> smfr: 2. how do we deal with z-offset issue? have an additional property transform-origin-z
  396. # [18:37] <vhardy_> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Feb/1135.html
  397. # [18:37] <nimbu> smfr: keep z-offset separate to avoid ambiguity
  398. # [18:38] <nimbu> smfr: add a slash syntax to keep z separate from x,y.
  399. # [18:38] * Joins: AryehGregor (Aryeh@72.229.29.65)
  400. # [18:38] <nimbu> AryehGregor: has more in the email.
  401. # [18:38] <nimbu> err smfr: AryehGregor has more in the email
  402. # [18:38] <nimbu> smfr: decide if transform-o matches bg-o. fundamental decision to make.
  403. # [18:38] <nimbu> smfr: i think dbaron you suggested that originally.
  404. # [18:38] <nimbu> dbaron: i wasn't considering 3d case.
  405. # [18:39] <nimbu> dbaron: how useful is the z component of transform-o to begin with
  406. # [18:39] <nimbu> smfr: it is useful in some cases, we have used it in demos and stuff.
  407. # [18:39] <tantek> I'd like to request that the CSS Transforms FPWD also link to the Editor's draft in addition to the issues list.
  408. # [18:39] <fantasai> tantek, agreed. Should update to the module template overall
  409. # [18:39] <nimbu> smfr: aligning with bg-position adds an additional burden.
  410. # [18:40] <Ms2ger> tantek, fantasai, hasn't that been resolved ages ago?
  411. # [18:40] <tantek> fantasai - updating to the module template overall is potentially a lot more work
  412. # [18:40] <tantek> (having just done that myself for CSS3-UI)
  413. # [18:40] <nimbu> smfr: AryehGregor pointed out some of bg-pos can be done with calc.
  414. # [18:40] <fantasai> tantek, grabbing just the header though shouldn't be
  415. # [18:40] <nimbu> smfr: or change bg-pos syntax to align with it.
  416. # [18:40] * Joins: glenn_ (gadams@71.218.125.15)
  417. # [18:40] <tantek> I would be ok with updating just the header portion (the stuff that comes before "Abstract") to the module template for FPWD, and the rest after
  418. # [18:40] <Zakim> -danielweck
  419. # [18:40] <tantek> fantasai - sounds like we are agreed
  420. # [18:41] <Zakim> +??P18
  421. # [18:41] <danielweck> Zakim, ??P18 is me
  422. # [18:41] <Zakim> +danielweck; got it
  423. # [18:41] <nimbu> smfr: you think with z as separate property, transform would be a shorthand.
  424. # [18:41] * Quits: glenn (gadams@174.29.107.47) (Ping timeout)
  425. # [18:41] <nimbu> smfr: maybe we should just leave this to the mailing list.
  426. # [18:41] <tantek> PROPOSAL: Require CSS3 Transforms FPWD header (portion before "Abstract") update to CSS module template.
  427. # [18:41] <nimbu> plinss: anyone has any opinions?
  428. # [18:41] <Zakim> +??P21
  429. # [18:41] <tantek> *before publication.
  430. # [18:41] <nimbu> fantasai: only concern is if we are not matching bg-pos it would be confusing to authors
  431. # [18:42] <glenn_> zakim, ??P21 is me
  432. # [18:42] <Zakim> +glenn_; got it
  433. # [18:42] <nimbu> sylvaing: the author is already using it, why is it confusing
  434. # [18:42] <nimbu> sylvaing: authors are already using transforms
  435. # [18:42] * tantek agrees with sylvaing
  436. # [18:42] <nimbu> smfr: figure out if we should track it or not
  437. # [18:42] <nimbu> dbaron: tracking is basically impossible
  438. # [18:42] <nimbu> sylvaing: yes
  439. # [18:42] <nimbu> smfr: it is unfortunate we have 2 different ways of describing similar behavior in 2 different properties
  440. # [18:43] <nimbu> plinss: is it too late to change bg-pos behavior
  441. # [18:43] <nimbu> dbaron: i have not been too crazy about new bg-pos syntax but we had an intern spend a significant time implementing it.
  442. # [18:43] <nimbu> fantasai: it has not changed since 2008. confused by people saying it was updated.
  443. # [18:43] <nimbu> smfr: original transform spec was done before that change so we used the old syntax, I am guessing.
  444. # [18:44] <nimbu> sylvaing: the goal is to unprefix as much interop we have, i am not in favour of changing syntax at this point
  445. # [18:44] <nimbu> sylvaing: if the goal is consistency, last time we did this was for gradients and I dont have a good memory of that
  446. # [18:44] <Ms2ger> Hear, hear
  447. # [18:44] <nimbu> smfr: the syntax in the transform spec is compatible with bg-pos syntax
  448. # [18:44] <oyvind> (the background-position thing has been in CR for years, and in draft before transforms afaik)
  449. # [18:45] <nimbu> dbaron: z part is a subset of the syntax.
  450. # [18:45] * Quits: drublic (drublic@93.132.247.27) (Client exited)
  451. # [18:45] <nimbu> smfr: were we to move to bg-pos syntax would the content break.
  452. # [18:45] <dbaron> s/z part is/excluding the z part it's/
  453. # [18:45] <nimbu> smfr: i would be willing to forgo compat with transform-o that has z position specified
  454. # [18:45] * Joins: drublic (drublic@93.132.247.27)
  455. # [18:46] <nimbu> fantasai: i dont have any feedback on it as I havent looked at this issue
  456. # [18:46] <nimbu> smfr: i think we should continue this on mailing list
  457. # [18:46] <fantasai> ACTION fantasai review transform-origin
  458. # [18:46] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  459. # [18:46] <trackbot> Created ACTION-449 - Review transform-origin [on Elika Etemad - due 2012-02-29].
  460. # [18:46] <nimbu> smfr: one of the other issues for 3d transforms is requirement for rendering intersecting elements
  461. # [18:46] <smfr> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-transforms/
  462. # [18:46] <nimbu> smfr: example 7.
  463. # [18:47] <nimbu> smfr: question is whether we should make intersection behaviour normative in the spec or not.
  464. # [18:47] <nimbu> smfr: we didnt make it normative is that implementing this is difficult.
  465. # [18:47] <nimbu> dbaron: authors are hitting the lack of interop here and we need to pick an answer
  466. # [18:47] <nimbu> smfr: yes definitely
  467. # [18:47] <nimbu> plinss: i am presuming we have no interop currently
  468. # [18:47] <TabAtkins_> We are definitely opposed to leaving it non-normative.
  469. # [18:48] <nimbu> smfr: I dont know what chrome and firefox's behaviour is.
  470. # [18:48] <nimbu> dbaron: chrome & firefox do it one way and safari another.
  471. # [18:48] <TabAtkins_> Yes, no real interop. Chrome has different behavior even between HW-accelerated and non.
  472. # [18:48] <nimbu> dbaron: roc would know.
  473. # [18:48] <dbaron> s/dbaron:/dbaron: I think what people said is that
  474. # [18:48] <nimbu> smfr: i would like to hear input from other implementers, whether its something they would consider implementing.
  475. # [18:49] * TabAtkins_ (I think I missed something - what is smfr asking about implementing?)
  476. # [18:49] <nimbu> smfr: you have planes in 3d space, if you transform planes they intersect
  477. # [18:49] * sylvaing smfr is asking for feedback on whether/how to make intersecting elements normative
  478. # [18:49] <nimbu> smfr: to get correct rendering you need to subdivide planes along the lines of intersection
  479. # [18:50] <nimbu> smfr: if you look at the spec, it points to a wikipedia page and tells you how to resolve rendering ambiguities
  480. # [18:50] <nimbu> smfr: alternative is you dont render intersecting space. and that wont show the intersection correctly
  481. # [18:50] <nimbu> ACTION dbaron ask roc on how/whether to make intersecting elements normative
  482. # [18:50] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  483. # [18:50] <trackbot> Created ACTION-450 - Ask roc on how/whether to make intersecting elements normative [on David Baron - due 2012-02-29].
  484. # [18:51] <TabAtkins_> Chrome is willing to work on good intersecting behavior, both for rendering and picking. We *definitely* want normative requirements here.
  485. # [18:51] <nimbu> ACTION florianr ask opera how/whether to make intersecting elements normative
  486. # [18:51] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  487. # [18:51] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - florianr
  488. # [18:51] <Ms2ger> ACTION florian ask opera how/whether to make intersecting elements normative
  489. # [18:51] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  490. # [18:51] <trackbot> Created ACTION-451 - Ask opera how/whether to make intersecting elements normative [on Florian Rivoal - due 2012-02-29].
  491. # [18:51] <nimbu> smfr: webkit has a mode where you can turn off hw accell and thats not a config that a user should run into.
  492. # [18:51] <nimbu> plinss: i thought i heard chrome and safari have different behaviours here?
  493. # [18:51] <TabAtkins_> We do, yes.
  494. # [18:52] <nimbu> smfr: thats possible, chrome uses openGL backend for rendering, safari uses ?? framework for the rendering
  495. # [18:52] <dbaron> s/?? framework/CoreAnimation framework/
  496. # [18:52] <nimbu> plinss: safari is basically doing the intersection.
  497. # [18:52] <TabAtkins_> (I don't know details, but I was talking with our implementors a few days ago.)
  498. # [18:52] <nimbu> plinss: if we define this normatively in the spec, would anyone else be able to implement it?
  499. # [18:52] <nimbu> florianr: we might run into cases where it might be different as we do ports for wide variety of platforms
  500. # [18:53] <nimbu> plinss: we specify this behaviour but we say 'should' for now.
  501. # [18:53] <nimbu> florianr: the resulting apperance is very different
  502. # [18:53] <TabAtkins_> We are willing to implement.
  503. # [18:53] <nimbu> ::: that is my concern, if its not consistent it kinda falls apart.
  504. # [18:53] <nimbu> s/::/??
  505. # [18:53] <stearns> s/::/vincent/
  506. # [18:53] <nimbu> plinss: i am not sure if its worth holding the spec for.
  507. # [18:54] <nimbu> florianr: if it turns out to be too hard, normatively state that we should do intersections. lets go check with implementers
  508. # [18:54] <nimbu> dbaron: this is the biggest interop complaint i have heard about transforms.
  509. # [18:54] <nimbu> plinss: we will come back to next week to revisit
  510. # [18:54] <florianr> s/should do/should not do/
  511. # [18:55] <nimbu> plinss: any other issues?
  512. # [18:55] <nimbu> smfr: thats all the transform issues I want to talk about today.
  513. # [18:55] <nimbu> plinss: when we think we can take transforms to last call
  514. # [18:55] <nimbu> florianr: we have to be reasonably sure we have identified them
  515. # [18:56] <nimbu> plinss: last call is to get everybody's issues in
  516. # [18:56] <nimbu> tantek: there is simply a requirement, if we know of any issues, we document and link to them.
  517. # [18:56] <nimbu> tantek: linking issues in the header is sufficient for that
  518. # [18:56] <nimbu> fantasai: are there any significant issues - major ones - that we havent resolved for the last call?
  519. # [18:57] <nimbu> tantek: specific item on that is dependencies. speaking with ?? they clarified that.
  520. # [18:57] <fantasai> s/??/AB/
  521. # [18:57] <nimbu> tantek: that requirement is there so groups rely on those dependencies are notified during the LC
  522. # [18:57] <nimbu> tantek: there could always be new ones someone finds tomorrow
  523. # [18:57] <nimbu> sylvaing: ones that have been identified are major tho.
  524. # [18:58] <nimbu> fantasai: one of the purposes of LC is to review whats going to CR. going from LC to CR, without that review breaks that cycle.
  525. # [18:58] <nimbu> fantasai: we must be pretty sure we dont make major changes before we go to LC.
  526. # [18:59] <nimbu> tantek: html wg publishes multiple last calls
  527. # [18:59] <nimbu> stearns: you will end up going to last call again
  528. # [18:59] * sylvaing doesn't understand how we go to LC with a missing normative definition of something known to be a major interop issue
  529. # [18:59] <nimbu> stearns: the belief that you wont have major issues show up in LC is not reliable either
  530. # [18:59] <stearns> s/stearns/stevez/
  531. # [18:59] <nimbu> oops
  532. # [18:59] * nimbu blames autocomplete
  533. # [19:00] <fantasai> can we stop talking about process, PLEASE?
  534. # [19:00] <stearns> +1 fantasai
  535. # [19:00] <nimbu> tantek: i know your intent to speed up the process
  536. # [19:00] <dbaron> fantasai, btw, didn't we agree to add a test suite link to the template too?
  537. # [19:00] <nimbu> err
  538. # [19:00] <dbaron> fantasai, is it ok if I add that to css-module?
  539. # [19:00] <sylvaing> and we asked to not talk about this today
  540. # [19:00] <nimbu> florianr: tantek i know your intent is to speed up process, but seems like we keep talking more about process
  541. # [19:00] <fantasai> dbaron, don't recall, but sure, go ahead
  542. # [19:01] <nimbu> tantek: if you want to take clarifications to email i am fine with that.
  543. # [19:01] <nimbu> plinss: i am not sure we are ready to take it to LC today.
  544. # [19:01] <nimbu> plinss: i dont like to take this to LC 10 times, i would like to do 1 LC as possible. I dont want to wait to post all of our issues to do that.
  545. # [19:01] <nimbu> plinss: as long as we have all of the issues identified, i am fine with that.
  546. # [19:01] * fantasai thinks the *editors* should decide whether they want to do multiple LCs, not Tantek, since it's the *editors* who are going to have to do the extra work in drawing up multiple DoCs
  547. # [19:02] * vhardy_ need to drop out.
  548. # [19:02] <Zakim> - +1.408.536.aacc
  549. # [19:02] <nimbu> sylvaing: it is weird to have people review something without having a resolution on something significant that lacks interop
  550. # [19:02] <nimbu> plinss: only intend to take it to LC soon.
  551. # [19:03] <nimbu> plinss: we will come backt o transforms next week, hopefully editors will have feedback on issues raised this week
  552. # [19:03] <nimbu> sylvaing: any word on what happens to image values when people who asked for extensions dont provide feedback
  553. # [19:03] <nimbu> fantasai: we compile list of comments without their comments.
  554. # [19:03] <nimbu> Bert: i have not heard anything, if its too late, they have to go to director to ask. but they have had their chance i think
  555. # [19:03] <nimbu> plinss: shall we push on then?
  556. # [19:03] <nimbu> Bert: i think so.
  557. # [19:04] <nimbu> plinss: ready to take Image Values to CR?
  558. # [19:04] <nimbu> fantasai: we need to finish disposition of comments and then review it
  559. # [19:04] <nimbu> plinss: when do you think you can have that ready?
  560. # [19:04] <nimbu> fantasai: next week
  561. # [19:04] <TabAtkins_> I'm doing the last cleanup for DoC.
  562. # [19:04] <TabAtkins_> Yeah, next week I'll be fully finished.
  563. # [19:04] * Joins: jet (jet@67.169.43.128)
  564. # [19:04] <nimbu> plinss: do we need to formally ping ?? that we are moving ahead without them?
  565. # [19:04] <nimbu> Bert: i think a message would be polite
  566. # [19:05] <TabAtkins_> s/??/WAIPF/
  567. # [19:05] <nimbu> florianr: the message should include the fact that we are not waiting.
  568. # [19:05] <nimbu> Bert: something has to be really quick, there is no more deadline.
  569. # [19:05] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Feb/1083.html
  570. # [19:05] <nimbu> ACTION Bert tell WAIPF that they need to give feedback asap for image values
  571. # [19:05] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  572. # [19:05] <trackbot> Created ACTION-452 - Tell WAIPF that they need to give feedback asap for image values [on Bert Bos - due 2012-02-29].
  573. # [19:06] <Zakim> -bradk
  574. # [19:06] <nimbu> fantasai: anything that is hard to define or not defined yet, we say don't animate.
  575. # [19:06] <bradk> had to go. Bye.
  576. # [19:06] * Quits: bradk (bradk@99.7.175.117) (Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/ )
  577. # [19:06] <nimbu> sylvaing: we are not defining it until before image values.
  578. # [19:06] <nimbu> dbaron: the prose was never removed from transitions, i am proposing we remove it.
  579. # [19:07] <nimbu> florianr: we allow ourselves to do it later.
  580. # [19:07] <tantek> nimbu - plinss specifically said on the call that we the wg can take drafts to LC with open issues. could we please have that minuted?
  581. # [19:07] <nimbu> sylvaing: yes.
  582. # [19:07] <nimbu> tantek: yes, how do I do that :/
  583. # [19:08] * TabAtkins_ nimbu, you just minute it. Type it out. ^_^
  584. # [19:08] <nimbu> plinss: ask everyone to review david's list and get to it next week.
  585. # [19:08] <Zakim> -stearns
  586. # [19:08] <Zakim> -[Apple]
  587. # [19:08] <nimbu> plinss: we can take drafts to LC with open issues
  588. # [19:08] <Zakim> -danielweck
  589. # [19:08] <Zakim> -sylvaing
  590. # [19:08] <Zakim> - +1.206.427.aaee
  591. # [19:08] * nimbu has done it
  592. # [19:08] <tantek> nimbu - you can note it with a time index, e.g. he said it around 17:48Z
  593. # [19:08] <Zakim> -kimberly
  594. # [19:08] <Zakim> -[Mozilla]
  595. # [19:08] <Zakim> -howcome
  596. # [19:08] <nimbu> oh
  597. # [19:08] <Zakim> -cabanier
  598. # [19:08] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  599. # [19:08] * Quits: Phil (pcupp@131.107.0.81) (Quit: Phil)
  600. # [19:08] <Zakim> -Bert
  601. # [19:08] * Quits: kimberly (Kimberly@68.81.71.240) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 11.0/20120215222917])
  602. # [19:08] <Zakim> -glenn_
  603. # [19:08] <nimbu> i think fantasai will clean it up ^_^
  604. # [19:08] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
  605. # [19:08] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.aa]
  606. # [19:08] * Quits: katie (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
  607. # [19:08] <Zakim> -smfr
  608. # [19:08] * Quits: Rossen (Rossen@131.107.0.87) (Ping timeout)
  609. # [19:08] <Zakim> -plinss
  610. # [19:08] <fantasai> nimbu: That's right!
  611. # [19:08] <Zakim> -kojiishi
  612. # [19:08] * Quits: cabanier (IceChat77@66.220.98.66) (Quit: Easy as 3.14159265358979323846... )
  613. # [19:08] <Zakim> -antonp
  614. # [19:08] <Zakim> -??P9
  615. # [19:08] <Zakim> -dstorey
  616. # [19:09] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  617. # [19:09] <Zakim> -nimbu
  618. # [19:09] <tantek> nimbu - she can clean it up yes, but as the minuter, you need to minute it so she can clean it up.
  619. # [19:09] <fantasai> nimbu: Anyone can correct the minutes, it doesn't have to be you. If they ask you to minute something, and they said it in IRC, tell them it's minuted already :)
  620. # [19:09] <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
  621. # [19:09] <fantasai> by the simple fact that it's in the IRC
  622. # [19:09] <nimbu> haha okay
  623. # [19:09] <nimbu> :)
  624. # [19:09] <Zakim> -tantek
  625. # [19:09] <fantasai> tantek^
  626. # [19:09] <Zakim> -[IPcaller.a]
  627. # [19:09] <tantek> fantasai - whatever you prefer, as the minutes cleaner.
  628. # [19:09] * Quits: antonp (50a94e63@207.192.75.252) (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
  629. # [19:10] <fantasai> tantek: My preference is that you don't disturb the minute-taker when making corrections.
  630. # [19:10] <fantasai> tantek: Because then stuff that should've been minuted gets lost while they process your request.
  631. # [19:10] <tantek> presumably that's up to the minute-taker, so I'll make a note of that when you're taking minutes.
  632. # [19:10] <fantasai> tantek: If you want to correct the minutes, you can do that yourself.
  633. # [19:11] <dbaron> ok, looks like we didn't actually resolve to add a test suite link
  634. # [19:11] <dbaron> but I think we should
  635. # [19:11] <dbaron> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Nov/0713.html was the discussion I remembered
  636. # [19:11] <TabAtkins_> tantek: Interrupting *any* minute-taker for non-essential things is bad form.
  637. # [19:12] * Quits: SimonSapin (simon@82.232.219.95) (Ping timeout)
  638. # [19:12] <fantasai> tantek: Sure, go ahead and disturb the minute-taker who is not me. Be aware however that your disturbance is *entirely useless* because if you say something in IRC without using /me it will be logged as well as if it were restated by the minute-taker
  639. # [19:12] <TabAtkins_> And asking them to type something you've just typed is non-essential. ^_^
  640. # [19:12] <tantek> dbaron - sounds like a reasonable thing to post to the list proposing the change to the module template
  641. # [19:12] <fantasai> tantek: So you're just wasting their attention.
  642. # [19:12] <tantek> fantasai - as a non-minute taker it's ambiguous
  643. # [19:12] <tantek> when you say "person:"
  644. # [19:13] <tantek> is it direct at person
  645. # [19:13] <tantek> or is it quoting person
  646. # [19:13] <fantasai> tantek: But if you want to waste their attention, go ahead.
  647. # [19:13] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@159.63.23.38) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  648. # [19:13] <tantek> fantasai - please stop with the strawmen
  649. # [19:14] <fantasai> tantek: if you're splicing something halfway up the backlog, you'll have to explain where you want it in any case
  650. # [19:14] <hober> i think it's pretty well established that you /me if you don't want to be minuted, and you don't /me if you do want to be minuted. the minute taker doesn't need to do anything.
  651. # [19:14] * Quits: drublic (drublic@93.132.247.27) (Ping timeout)
  652. # [19:14] <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, glenn, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
  653. # [19:14] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  654. # [19:14] <Zakim> Attendees were plinss, +1.650.275.aaaa, bradk, +1.206.324.aabb, glenn, nimbu, florianr, hober, antonp, sylvaing, stearns, arronei, dbaron, smfr, +1.408.536.aacc, [Microsoft], Bert,
  655. # [19:14] <Zakim> ... kimberly, [IPcaller], tantek, danielweck, +1.206.427.aaee, SteveZ, howcome, cabanier, kojiishi, Rossen, dstorey, glenn_
  656. # [19:14] <hober> (and like fantasai said, anyone can correct the minutes as we go)
  657. # [19:14] <tantek> hober, what's the distinction for directing a message toward someone vs. quoting them? both seem to use the "person:" prefix syntax?
  658. # [19:15] <fantasai> tantek: your request to nimbu was unambiguous. You asked that it be minuted that plinss said something.
  659. # [19:15] * Quits: danielweck (danielweck@81.154.227.92) (Quit: danielweck)
  660. # [19:15] <fantasai> tantek: you didn't need to ask nimu to retype what you typed
  661. # [19:15] <tantek> ok
  662. # [19:15] <hober> hober: tantek, foo
  663. # [19:15] <tantek> , (directed to) vs : (quoting) ok
  664. # [19:16] <fantasai> tantek: this is one of the many reasons why I manually format the minutes :)
  665. # [19:16] <tantek> fantasai - understood
  666. # [19:16] <tantek> could you consider a feature request of IDs for statements, similar to the IRC logs?
  667. # [19:16] <tantek> so we can link to specific statements in the formatted minutes
  668. # [19:17] <tantek> I've found it hard to cite the minutes for reference on some issues because the minutes can be quite large and it's not reasonable to expect someone to dig through all of them for the one or two lines that substantiate a point that is being made.
  669. # [19:17] <fantasai> tantek: That would be awesome. How about you write a script that converts the minutes to HTML? Because I can't exactly put IDs in plaintext emails. :)
  670. # [19:18] * tantek had mistakenly thought you were posting HTML minutes.
  671. # [19:19] * fantasai wonders if tantek uses a proportional font for reading email
  672. # [19:19] * Ms2ger wonders if these comments should be minuted
  673. # [19:19] * fantasai would be sad, 'cuz all her ascii art would break :(
  674. # [19:19] <fantasai> Ms2ger: I can tag them onto the minutes if you think they're that useful. :) But I think not so much...
  675. # [19:20] <fantasai> Ooh, great idea: make the mail archives put anchors for each line in an email
  676. # [19:20] <fantasai> Oh wait, nobody maintains the archive system.
  677. # [19:21] * fantasai agrees with the crazy Forums thread that our web archive software is kindof suboptimal...
  678. # [19:23] * Ms2ger wonders if the physical units thread is crazy enough to shut it down
  679. # [19:24] * fantasai hasn't been following
  680. # [19:24] <tantek> as suboptimal as our archive software is, existing forums are much much worse
  681. # [19:24] <hober> Ms2ger: I've fallen behind on reading that thread. Early on it wasn't crazy, and I intend to follow up with some concerns of my own. I'm sad to hear it's gone off the rails
  682. # [19:24] <tantek> hober, yeah it's been useless for a while
  683. # [19:25] <hober> sadface
  684. # [19:25] <tantek> basically, we never should have introduced physical units to CSS in the first place, because authors would just end up depending on them as proxies for pixels.
  685. # [19:25] <tantek> but that would make a good band name: Proxies for Pixels
  686. # [19:26] <hober> we do need to be able to distinguish between displays of different physical size but the same pixel dimensions and the same device pixel ratio
  687. # [19:26] <Ms2ger> But buttons that need to be as big as my thumb!
  688. # [19:26] <hober> the resolution media query lets you do that so long as its arguments (dpi,dpcm) are physical
  689. # [19:26] * fantasai files a bug on the achors thing
  690. # [19:26] <fantasai> s/achors/anchors/
  691. # [19:27] <tantek> Ms2ger - so if you can come up with a mechanism where developers won't just assume a fixed # of pixels for that, propose it, but so far, no-one has.
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  694. # [19:27] <tantek> I'm surprised no one has brought up the "viewing angle" justification of the physical units in CSS
  695. # [19:27] <tantek> or maybe I just missed that message in the thread
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  698. # [19:30] <fantasai> tantek: I think someon edid
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  704. # [19:32] <tantek> hober - I was quite amused at David Singer's frustration in the thread with people simply repeating themselves. So far I've resisted posting the, well that's because it's email that's how email works answer. Or rather, if you want to stop repeating things, post it on the web somewhere discoverable (i.e. a wiki, not email archives) and just repeat a URL, it's faster.
  705. # [19:33] <hober> good times
  706. # [19:33] * tantek figures that with enough time people will either figure that out, or just keep posting the same things to email lists because they like to read the emails they send.
  707. # [19:34] * Joins: drublic (drublic@93.132.231.27)
  708. # [19:34] <Ms2ger> The latter
  709. # [19:36] * fantasai thinks unit resolution is a good topic for tantek's proposed www-style FAQ
  710. # [19:37] <tantek> more than proposed, already stubbed: http://wiki.csswg.org/faq
  711. # [19:37] <tantek> fantasai - it's a wiki, feel free to add to the FAQ on that subject :)
  712. # [19:38] <fantasai> tantek: I think what's on there isn't FAQ, but Guidelines for Posting, actually
  713. # [19:38] <fantasai> tantek: but yes, maybe put a nice header on there and reply to dsinger with the URL? :)
  714. # [19:38] * fantasai has to go figure out how to pack all of a dinner and transport it over the metro
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  716. # [19:39] <smfr> fantasai: still here?
  717. # [19:39] <fantasai> yes, for a few secs
  718. # [19:39] <fantasai> smfr: what's up?
  719. # [19:39] <smfr> i see ChrisL had an action to publish the FPWD for transforms, but I was going to mail Bert to do it anyway
  720. # [19:39] <smfr> is that OK/
  721. # [19:40] <fantasai> smfr: mail both of them? ChrisL asked to be actioned on it, so that's what I did
  722. # [19:40] <fantasai> smfr: did you update the header to match css3-animations?
  723. # [19:40] <smfr> also, do I have to make any changes to prepare for WD, or does someone else do things like fix the stylesheet link?
  724. # [19:40] <fantasai> smfr: Bert will take care of all of that. Just make sure it validates, no broken links etc.
  725. # [19:40] <fantasai> http://validator.w3.org/
  726. # [19:40] <smfr> ok, 'make' says it's ok
  727. # [19:40] <fantasai> http://validator.w3.org/checklink
  728. # [19:41] <smfr> right
  729. # [19:41] <smfr> 13 errors!
  730. # [19:41] <fantasai> heh
  731. # [19:41] <Ms2ger> pubrules
  732. # [19:41] <smfr> i'll fix those then mail
  733. # [19:41] <fantasai> Ms2ger: I find the main thing I need to fix wrt pubrules is broken links, and imho, those *should* be fixed.
  734. # [19:42] * fantasai usually doesn't run into other problems, thanks to Bert's preprocessor having macros for most of its requirements
  735. # [19:42] <Ms2ger> Mm, same for Anolis
  736. # [19:42] <hober> smfr: didn't you mention that the makefile was stripping out your link to the editor's draft? fantasai, any idea why it might do that?
  737. # [19:43] <smfr> i fixed it
  738. # [19:43] <hober> oh cool
  739. # [19:43] <smfr> <dd><a href="http://dev.w3.org/csswg/[SHORTNAME]/">http://dev.w3.org/csswg/[SHORTNAME]/</a>
  740. # [19:43] * fantasai has no idea, never had that problem
  741. # [19:43] <fantasai> you can view Overview.src.html on the module template, all of that should work fine...
  742. # [19:44] <fantasai> Right. Kitchen. Metro. Laters!~
  743. # [19:46] <smfr> i can't believe we strip quotes around attribute values
  744. # [19:47] <tantek> smfr, what do you have against saving a few bytes here and there? ;)
  745. # [19:47] <smfr> it messes with my pretty printer
  746. # [19:47] <tantek> I'd say patches welcome but I don't know where the script lives in source control.
  747. # [19:48] <Ms2ger> It doesn't
  748. # [19:48] <Ms2ger> AFAIK
  749. # [19:49] <smfr> <h2 class="no-num no-toc" id="abstract">Abstract</h2>
  750. # [19:49] <smfr> gets turned into
  751. # [19:49] <smfr> <h2 class="no-num no-toc" id=abstract>Abstract</h2>
  752. # [19:50] <Ms2ger> Why not? It's HTML
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  754. # [19:53] <TabAtkins_> smfr: More importantly, why are you looking at Overview.html at all?
  755. # [19:54] <TabAtkins_> (I hear you, though. Sublime Text's syntax coloring has made me more likely to quote attributes, at least when I'm writing code in it. *Especially* ids, because the coloring is actually *broken* for them. I'm not really sure how he managed to do that.
  756. # [19:54] <TabAtkins_> )
  757. # [19:54] <smfr> because it's what ends up getting publiushed
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  790. # [23:00] * Joins: arno (arno@192.150.10.200)
  791. # [23:25] * Quits: karl (karlcow@128.30.54.58) (Quit: :tiuQ tiuq sah woclrak)
  792. # [23:35] * Quits: arno (arno@192.150.10.200) (Quit: Leaving.)
  793. # [23:36] * Joins: tantek (tantek@159.63.23.38)
  794. # [23:39] * Joins: smfr_ (smfr@17.212.152.232)
  795. # [23:39] * Joins: arno (arno@192.150.10.200)
  796. # [23:40] * Quits: arno (arno@192.150.10.200) (Quit: Leaving.)
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  798. # [23:59] * Quits: jet (jet@67.169.43.128) (Quit: jet)
  799. # Session Close: Thu Feb 23 00:00:01 2012

The end :)