/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2012-03-21 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Mar 21 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  10. # [00:52] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: I'm revising the wiki page to remove mentions of the out-of-document element() stuff.
  11. # [00:53] <TabAtkins_> Wait, nm, got it.
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  15. # [01:02] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: btw, I think we'll need to drop rtl/ltr as well
  16. # [01:03] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: Kenny raised some good design-level issues against it
  17. # [01:06] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: There was also an issue on whether image-orientation should be inherited
  18. # [01:06] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: which seems like a reasonable idea...
  19. # [01:06] <TabAtkins_> That'll make the bidi folk sad, but I"m not overly against it.
  20. # [01:07] <fantasai> yeah, I know, but I think making it a better-designed feature is worth the wait :)
  21. # [01:07] <TabAtkins_> kk
  22. # [01:07] <TabAtkins_> What's this about inheriting image-orientation?
  23. # [01:07] <fantasai> image-orientation doesn't inherit
  24. # [01:07] <TabAtkins_> Yes.
  25. # [01:07] <fantasai> Kenny suggested maybe it should
  26. # [01:07] <TabAtkins_> Where?
  27. # [01:07] * fantasai looks for the email
  28. # [01:08] * fantasai needs to update the DoC with all of Kenny's off-hand comments that raise major issue.s..
  29. # [01:08] <TabAtkins_> hehe
  30. # [01:08] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Mar/0397.html
  31. # [01:09] <TabAtkins_> I don't see anything about inheriting ther.
  32. # [01:09] <TabAtkins_> Oh wait, now I see it.
  33. # [01:09] <fantasai> right :)
  34. # [01:10] <TabAtkins_> I have no problem with making it inherit.
  35. # [01:10] <fantasai> k
  36. # [01:10] <fantasai> I'll file it and update the spec.
  37. # [01:11] <fantasai> Looks like the old draft of css3-page marked "inherited" as "N/A", so we're not even conflicting with it ^_^
  38. # [01:11] * fantasai supposes the editors didn't know "N/A" is not a valid value for "inherited"...
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  40. # [01:20] <TabAtkins_> I'd suppose that as well.
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  42. # [01:23] <fantasai> k, checked in change, DoC update, and wiki update http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css3-images#inheritance-of-image-orientation
  43. # [01:23] <fantasai> hopefully it's non-controversial...
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  45. # [01:34] <fantasai> use case that object-fit's weird rules is trying to solve:
  46. # [01:34] <fantasai> photo album
  47. # [01:34] <fantasai> each picture gets a square to sit in
  48. # [01:35] <TabAtkins_> I absolutely understand the use-case.
  49. # [01:35] <TabAtkins_> I just think this is 100% the wrong way to do it.
  50. # [01:35] <fantasai> must fit inside the square
  51. # [01:35] <fantasai> must maintain aspect ratio
  52. # [01:35] <fantasai> want to give photo a drop-shadow
  53. # [01:35] * fantasai knows, just making notes to self
  54. # [01:35] <TabAtkins_> kk
  55. # [01:35] <fantasai> or put a border around it
  56. # [01:37] <fantasai> Maybe we can solve this by adding a 'resize' keyword that asks object-fit to resize the content box to match the concrete object size?
  57. # [01:37] * fantasai not now, in the future
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  59. # [01:41] <TabAtkins_> Using object-fit at all is a mistake.
  60. # [01:42] <TabAtkins_> It assumes that only "objects" will ever have intrinsic aspect ratios.
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  62. # [01:43] <fantasai> we picked the name to be generic enough that SVG could use it on arbitrary SVG elements
  63. # [01:43] <fantasai> so I think it's fine to use it for anything else we need it for in the future
  64. # [01:44] * fantasai is opposed to making a new property just because you want to apply it to <div>s with an aspect-ratio
  65. # [01:46] <TabAtkins_> Do you have a reasonable argument as to why it *shouldn't* apply?
  66. # [01:59] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: Of course, it's possible to inject the same kind of keyword into aspect-ratio, so you just have the same ability (hopefully triggered in the same way) from two different properties, depending on what kind of element you are.
  67. # [02:06] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: Do we just want to drop ltr/rtl and file it as an issue to look at?
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  87. # [05:03] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: Yes, that's what I said
  88. # [05:03] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: what shouldn't apply? /me confused
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  138. # [16:28] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/03/21-css-irc
  139. # [16:28] <glazou> Zakim, this will Style
  140. # [16:28] <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will Style', glazou
  141. # [16:28] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
  142. # [16:28] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 40 minutes
  143. # [16:28] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
  144. # [16:28] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
  145. # [16:58] * sylvaing_away is now known as sylvaing
  146. # [17:01] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  147. # [17:01] <Zakim> +??P0
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  149. # [17:02] <glenn> zakim, ??p0 is me
  150. # [17:02] <Zakim> +glenn; got it
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  153. # [17:02] <Zakim> +sylvaing
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  155. # [17:03] <glazou> Zakim, ??P12 is me
  156. # [17:03] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
  157. # [17:04] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  158. # [17:04] <florianr> Zakim, I am [IPcaller]
  159. # [17:04] <Zakim> ok, florianr, I now associate you with [IPcaller]
  160. # [17:04] <Zakim> +Molly_Holzschlag
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  164. # [17:05] <Zakim> -glenn
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  166. # [17:06] <glenn> zakim, ??p0 is me
  167. # [17:06] <Zakim> +glenn; got it
  168. # [17:06] <glenn> zakim, mute me
  169. # [17:06] <Zakim> glenn should now be muted
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  172. # [17:07] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  173. # [17:07] <Zakim> + +1.415.766.aaaa
  174. # [17:07] <dbaron> Zakim, aaaa is dbaron
  175. # [17:07] <Zakim> +dbaron; got it
  176. # [17:08] <Zakim> + +1.206.550.aabb
  177. # [17:08] <Zakim> +hober
  178. # [17:08] <stearns> zakim, aabb is me
  179. # [17:08] <Zakim> +stearns; got it
  180. # [17:08] <Zakim> +smfr
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  182. # [17:08] <JohnJansen> Zakim, Microsoft has JohnJansen
  183. # [17:08] <Zakim> +JohnJansen; got it
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  186. # [17:09] <Zakim> + +1.408.421.aacc
  187. # [17:10] * dbaron Zakim, who is on the phone?
  188. # [17:10] <dstorey> zakim, +1.408.421.aacc is dstorey
  189. # [17:10] <Zakim> + +8521616aadd
  190. # [17:10] <antonp> having trouble dialing in....
  191. # [17:10] * Zakim sees on the phone: sylvaing, glazou, [IPcaller], Molly_Holzschlag, glenn (muted), ??P31, [Microsoft], dbaron, stearns, hober, smfr, +1.408.421.aacc, +8521616aadd
  192. # [17:10] * Zakim [Microsoft] has JohnJansen
  193. # [17:10] <antonp> I'm in!
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  195. # [17:11] <Zakim> +dstorey; got it
  196. # [17:11] <Zakim> + +1.415.832.aaee
  197. # [17:11] <krit> Zakim, aaee is me
  198. # [17:11] <Zakim> +antonp
  199. # [17:11] <krit> Zakim, +1.415.832.aaee is me
  200. # [17:12] <Zakim> +krit; got it
  201. # [17:12] <Zakim> sorry, krit, I do not recognize a party named '+1.415.832.aaee'
  202. # [17:12] * Zakim hears +8521616aadd's hand up
  203. # [17:12] * Zakim sees +8521616aadd on the speaker queue
  204. # [17:12] <fantasai> Zakim, aadd is me
  205. # [17:12] <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
  206. # [17:12] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
  207. # [17:14] <glazou> ScribeNick: mollydotcom
  208. # [17:14] <sylvaing> extra agenda item from overtime 2 weeks ago: whether to move gradients to css3-gradients
  209. # [17:14] * Joins: Rossen (Rossen@131.107.174.165)
  210. # [17:14] <Zakim> +bradk
  211. # [17:14] <mollydotcom> Daniel: Asking for comments about proposal
  212. # [17:15] <dbaron> Dirk: propose publishing new draft of css3-transforms
  213. # [17:15] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.aa]
  214. # [17:15] <mollydotcom> Simon: clarifying language
  215. # [17:15] <Zakim> -hober
  216. # [17:15] <mollydotcom> Daniel: Objections? Comments?
  217. # [17:15] <glazou> smfr: remove green section
  218. # [17:15] * fantasai notes that Flexbox, Variables, and Grid Layout were supposed to be published already, how many are going to make it for Thursday?
  219. # [17:15] * fantasai because they're not published yet
  220. # [17:15] <mollydotcom> Resolution: New Working Draft for Transforms
  221. # [17:16] <mollydotcom> Daniel: Next up Sylvain and Gradients
  222. # [17:16] <dbaron> Zakim, who is on the phone?
  223. # [17:16] <Zakim> On the phone I see sylvaing, glazou, [IPcaller], Molly_Holzschlag, glenn (muted), ??P31, [Microsoft], dbaron, stearns, smfr, dstorey, fantasai, krit, antonp, [Microsoft.a], bradk,
  224. # [17:16] <Zakim> ... [Microsoft.aa]
  225. # [17:16] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has JohnJansen
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  227. # [17:16] <Rossen> Zakim, [Microsoft] has me
  228. # [17:16] <Zakim> +Rossen; got it
  229. # [17:16] <mollydotcom> Daniel: conversation regarding Elika's concerns re Flexbox, Variables and Grid Layout
  230. # [17:17] * glazou will sort that out with Bert
  231. # [17:17] <mollydotcom> Sylvain: Open issues on all the features in the spec
  232. # [17:17] <Zakim> +ChrisL
  233. # [17:17] <glazou> s/spec/gradients
  234. # [17:17] <mollydotcom> Sylvain: Only one implementation, so maybe we want to take gradients into their own draft
  235. # [17:17] <Zakim> +[Apple]
  236. # [17:17] <mollydotcom> Sylvain: We should make a decision on this
  237. # [17:18] <hober> Zakim, Apple has hober
  238. # [17:18] <Zakim> +Bert
  239. # [17:18] <Zakim> +hober; got it
  240. # [17:18] * mollydotcom says say your name before you speak for your poor scribe please
  241. # [17:18] * fantasai this is Florian
  242. # [17:18] <mollydotcom> Florian: CR itself doesn't have to be rushed
  243. # [17:19] <mollydotcom> Sylvain: I think that the feature has been around long enough, we're sitting on our hands waiting
  244. # [17:19] <mollydotcom> Florian: Discussion of CR v. PR and where resolutions should go
  245. # [17:20] <mollydotcom> Sylvain: In violent agreement, but I want to get it to CR as soon as we can
  246. # [17:20] <Zakim> +SteveZ
  247. # [17:20] <mollydotcom> Fantasai: Can we focus on resolving issues?
  248. # [17:20] <dbaron> um, that makes what order we discuss the issues in a pretty big factor
  249. # [17:20] <mollydotcom> Daniel: Moving to issues right now
  250. # [17:21] <ChrisL> link to issues list?
  251. # [17:21] <florianr> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css3-images
  252. # [17:22] <mollydotcom> Link to issues list: http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css3-images
  253. # [17:22] <mollydotcom> Elika: Directional images - design issues we can't address correctly that quickly, defer?
  254. # [17:22] * ChrisL that was me
  255. # [17:22] <mollydotcom> Daniel: No Objections
  256. # [17:23] * hober and then me
  257. # [17:23] <mollydotcom> RESOLVED: defer directional images
  258. # [17:23] <mollydotcom> Elika: Object-fit / Changing size of content box
  259. # [17:24] * Ms2ger fantasai the page says "Dispositin of Comments.", needs an 'o' in there :)
  260. # [17:24] <Zakim> + +47.21.65.aaff
  261. # [17:25] <glazou> mollydotcom: are you correctly minuting this?
  262. # [17:25] * ChrisL suggests asking Florian to summarise in IRC
  263. # [17:26] <mollydotcom> no
  264. # [17:26] <mollydotcom> Florian: please summarize
  265. # [17:26] <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
  266. # [17:27] <mollydotcom> Florian: Two concerns. 1st case seems useful, but not always the desired behavior
  267. # [17:27] <fantasai> Florian: We have two concerns about the effect. First, the use case that's described for it seems useful, but I'm not convinced that's always the behavior you want. Might want to turn it on or off.
  268. # [17:28] * glazou grrrs
  269. # [17:28] <fantasai> Florian: Second case is if you have max-width to 100px and width is less that, it will enlarge the image up to 100px
  270. # [17:29] <mollydotcom> Florian: Second case is if you have max-width to 100px and width is less that, it will enlarge the image up to 100px
  271. # [17:29] <fantasai> Florian: Among the ppl who understand this text, am I wrong to think that it says that?
  272. # [17:29] <mollydotcom> Florian: Am I wrong to think that the text says that?
  273. # [17:29] <fantasai> dbaron: It does say that you enlarge images in a bunch of cases, but I think... you're talking about wanting a constraint that shrinks/enlarges only if necessary?
  274. # [17:30] <mollydotcom> dbaron: It does say that you enlarge images in a bunch of cases, but I think... you're talking about wanting a constraint that shrinks/enlarges only if necessary?
  275. # [17:30] <fantasai> Florian: max-width + object-fit: contain causes your image to grow.
  276. # [17:30] <fantasai> Florian: It might be useful, but certainly counter-intuitive
  277. # [17:30] <mollydotcom> Florian: max-width and object: fit: contain doesn't seem useful, counter-intuitive
  278. # [17:30] <fantasai> Florian: So my conclusion based on that, I think we should split that behavior out of object-fit so that you have that behavior but it's not confused with object-fit contain and cover
  279. # [17:31] <fantasai> Molly: Sounds like a language problem
  280. # [17:31] <mollydotcom> Molly: Sounds like a language problem to me
  281. # [17:31] <mollydotcom> Florian: So my conclusion based on that, I think we should split that behavior out of object-fit so that you have that behavior but it's not confused with object-fit contain and cover
  282. # [17:31] <mollydotcom> Elika: Add a keyword that determines the behavior
  283. # [17:31] <mollydotcom> Elika: to control resizing the box (in level four)
  284. # [17:31] <fantasai> fantasai: Drop the paragraph, add a keyword in level 4
  285. # [17:32] <mollydotcom> Florian: Drop the paragraph, add a keyword in level 4
  286. # [17:32] <fantasai> dbaron: I think it's good to drop this to L4
  287. # [17:32] <fantasai> dbaron: I have comments on the feature for L4, not spend time on that right now.
  288. # [17:32] <Rossen> +1 for moving it to level 4
  289. # [17:32] <sylvaing> not clear on what the resolution is....
  290. # [17:32] <fantasai> sfmr: We have a scale-down keyword...
  291. # [17:32] <mollydotcom> Elika: Do we have a resolution on dropping the text?
  292. # [17:33] <tantek> scribe, I am on IRC only this morning for today's meeting
  293. # [17:33] <fantasai> Florian: The first paragraph of contain and cover is dropped, use cases it solves moved to L4
  294. # [17:33] <mollydotcom> Florian, the paragraph goes away, add a keyword in level 4
  295. # [17:33] <mollydotcom> Daniel: No objection?
  296. # [17:33] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Dropped
  297. # [17:33] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
  298. # [17:33] <mollydotcom> RESOLVED: Paragraph Dropped
  299. # [17:33] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: fantasai (89%), [IPcaller] (37%)
  300. # [17:34] * mollydotcom says thanks tantek
  301. # [17:34] <fantasai> fantasai summarizes issue about image-fit/image-position aliases of object-fit/object-position
  302. # [17:34] <fantasai> which were allowed for printers
  303. # [17:35] <fantasai> Florian: I think it's useful to specify such things so that new UAs can be backwards-compatible
  304. # [17:35] <fantasai> Florian: But also at the F2F we discussed what an alias means, and we don't have a definition.
  305. # [17:35] <fantasai> Florian: If we allow an alias, we should define it, and discussing that might take awhile.
  306. # [17:36] <fantasai> Florian: This is not the spec to spend this time.
  307. # [17:36] <dbaron> fantasai: How about we shift this to the print profile
  308. # [17:36] <dbaron> fantasai: It's printer specific -- not a backwards-compat issue on the Web
  309. # [17:37] <fantasai> dbaron: I'd also prefer not having aliases here.
  310. # [17:37] <fantasai> dbaron: I would prefer C to B, but I don't think we need to make that decision right now.
  311. # [17:37] <fantasai> Florian: We can drop it from Print Profile later if it's problematic
  312. # [17:37] <fantasai> glazou: Can you live with B?
  313. # [17:37] <fantasai> dbaron: I suppose so.
  314. # [17:38] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Shift to Print Profile
  315. # [17:39] <fantasai> fantasai summarizes issue 14
  316. # [17:40] <fantasai> Florian: Don't know enough about the topic. Sounds reasonable to me.
  317. # [17:40] <Zakim> -krit
  318. # [17:40] <fantasai> dbaron: Sounds reasonable to me, should probably run it by the Media Fragments group
  319. # [17:40] * Quits: krit (Adium@192.150.10.201) (Quit: Leaving.)
  320. # [17:40] <fantasai> ChrisL: We could; should I take an action to do that?
  321. # [17:41] <mollydotcom> Florian: Is there another solution?
  322. # [17:41] <mollydotcom> dbaron: Has anyone read the media fragments enough to understand?
  323. # [17:41] <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/TR/media-frags/#error-uri
  324. # [17:41] <mollydotcom> dbaron: If there isn't any behavior there I don't see any need to run it by the group
  325. # [17:42] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Edits approved for issue 14
  326. # [17:42] <florianr> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css3-images
  327. # [17:42] <mollydotcom> :)
  328. # [17:42] <florianr> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css3-images#image-and-invalid-fragments
  329. # [17:42] <dbaron> "If a URL uses a fragment identifier syntax that the implementation does not understand, or which the implementation does not consider valid for that type of image, the URL must be treated as representing an invalid image. This error-handling is limited to image(), and not in the definition of URL, for legacy compat reasons."
  330. # [17:42] <mollydotcom> Fantasai: Image orientation overview
  331. # [17:43] * miketaylr|| is now known as miketaylr|||
  332. # [17:43] * miketaylr||| is now known as miketaylr||||
  333. # [17:43] <fantasai> fantasai summarizes issue 42
  334. # [17:44] <mollydotcom> RESOLVED: Is inheritable
  335. # [17:44] <mollydotcom> Fantasai: Elements, lot of issues here - 2 options: Resolve all issues; or move to Level 4
  336. # [17:45] <mollydotcom> Fantasai: Tab removed element references - if anyone has any objection to that, please speak up
  337. # [17:45] * sylvaing pops the champagne for howcome
  338. # [17:45] * glazou this is a day to remember !
  339. # [17:45] <Zakim> -??P31
  340. # [17:46] <mollydotcom> Hakon: It seems that this other issue with the elements - I would agree this doesn't sound highly intuitive
  341. # [17:46] <Zakim> +??P14
  342. # [17:46] <Zakim> - +47.21.65.aaff
  343. # [17:46] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  344. # [17:46] <fantasai> Florian: I think I actually prefer proposal B, which is to defer element() to CSS4. I am not convinced we can go through all that in a short amount of time.
  345. # [17:46] <mollydotcom> Florian: Before we get into all issues, I think we might consider moving to Level 4 - I am not convinced
  346. # [17:46] <mollydotcom> we have enough time
  347. # [17:46] * Quits: miketaylr|||| (miketaylr@213.236.208.247) (Quit: Leaving...)
  348. # [17:46] <fantasai> Florian: Wrt short, I mean a number of telecons we can agree to right now
  349. # [17:46] <Zakim> + +47.21.65.aagg
  350. # [17:47] <fantasai> glazou: Still discussing the intimacy(?) of this feature; probably means it's not stable enough in everyone's mind.
  351. # [17:47] <dbaron> Zakim, aagg is howcome
  352. # [17:47] <Zakim> +howcome; got it
  353. # [17:47] <fantasai> Florian: We're discussing whether we need to discuss what you (howcome) said
  354. # [17:47] <fantasai> dbaron: I think a bunch of these issues aren't all that hard.
  355. # [17:47] <fantasai> dbaron: we've put them to the end of the list
  356. # [17:48] <fantasai> Florian: If we can handle by end of next telecon or 3, fine. But not unbounded number of telecons.
  357. # [17:48] <fantasai> glazou: let's not spend time on meta-discussion
  358. # [17:48] <fantasai> dbaron: So I don't think the GCPM and Images conflict. One defines... well, ok, yeah.
  359. # [17:49] <fantasai> dbaron: nevermind
  360. # [17:49] <fantasai> dbaron: I think the element name makes more sense in almost all the contexts its used. The one exception is 'content', which takes images and a bunch of other things.
  361. # [17:50] <fantasai> dbaron: Could say that element() only works inside image() for 'content', but everywhere else ok on it's own.
  362. # [17:50] <fantasai> fantasai: that seems weird
  363. # [17:50] <stearns> the number of reviews being solicited suggests to me that more issues will crop up, which pushes me towards deferral
  364. # [17:50] * Joins: krit (Adium@192.150.10.201)
  365. # [17:51] <fantasai> fantasai: So.. options include defining away the conflict in 'content' somehow, dbaron's proposal, renaming one or the other, or maybe merging the element() functionality into image() somehow.
  366. # [17:52] <fantasai> Florian: should we move to other issues?
  367. # [17:53] <glazou> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-images/#decorated-bounding-box
  368. # [17:53] * sylvaing reads bounding box as 'bouncing box' almost every single time. Very distracting.
  369. # [17:53] <fantasai> fantasai: Issue was bounding box is undefined. So we added a definition, and used the border image area as the basis of that definition
  370. # [17:53] <fantasai> fantasai: So the question is, does the WG approve of this.
  371. # [17:53] <fantasai> fantasai: we chose the border image area rather than the border box so that border images wouldn't get clipped if they were outset
  372. # [17:54] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  373. # [17:54] <fantasai> Florian: Sounds ok to me, but far from sure I have my head around all the implications.
  374. # [17:54] <fantasai> dbaron: I want to run this by roc
  375. # [17:54] <dbaron> dbaron: possible that it should be a little more related to 'overflow'
  376. # [17:55] * Parts: krit (Adium@192.150.10.201)
  377. # [17:56] <fantasai> fantasai: This parallels the SVG concept of "decorated bounding box", which includes not just the geometry of the of the svg element, but also the half of the stroke that sits outside it.
  378. # [17:56] <fantasai> bradk: Should this include outline?
  379. # [17:56] <ChrisL> outline takes no space (or at least does not cause reflow)
  380. # [17:56] <fantasai> bradk: Wouldn't want outline to clip
  381. # [17:56] <fantasai> fantasai: That would make the behavior undefined, since outline position is not defined.
  382. # [17:57] <fantasai> Rossen: outline doesn't include scrolling extents, so why include it here
  383. # [17:57] <fantasai> smfr: Then you get into issues of should it include box-shadow, filter effects that cause spilling, etc.
  384. # [17:57] <fantasai> Rossen: Seems odd to me to take into account outines for bounding boxes
  385. # [17:58] <fantasai> dbaron: What is this used for?
  386. # [17:58] <fantasai> fantasai: calculating the size of the element and its clipping bounds
  387. # [17:58] <fantasai> s/element/image/
  388. # [17:59] <dbaron> Brad: I don't see how 'outline' is different from 'border-image'
  389. # [17:59] <dbaron> Florian: I'm sure I don't want outlines in there
  390. # [17:59] <glenn> pixels from rasterizing glyphs also (may and often do) fall outside their bounding box; would another term be needed for this?
  391. # [18:00] <fantasai> dbaron: What does Gecko do?
  392. # [18:00] <Zakim> +??P17
  393. # [18:00] * fantasai doesn't know
  394. # [18:00] <Zakim> -howcome
  395. # [18:00] <glenn> zakim, ??p17 is me
  396. # [18:00] <Zakim> +glenn; got it
  397. # [18:01] <fantasai> fantasai: Also a question of what's the right behavior here. In most cases border image area matches border area. Question is what's best to do in cases where they mismatch
  398. # [18:01] <fantasai> No conclusion here, moving on.
  399. # [18:01] <dbaron> fantasai: next issue is issue 27, Allow image() to accept element() so that authors can specify fallbacks
  400. # [18:02] <dbaron> dbaron: sounds good to me
  401. # [18:02] <dbaron> Florian: sounds ok
  402. # [18:02] <fantasai> RESOLVED: accept changes for issue 27
  403. # [18:02] <dbaron> fantasai: Next issue is issue 26, specifying handling of varying size pages
  404. # [18:03] <dbaron> fantasai: propose align page content boxes by their start content edges before taking the bounding box.
  405. # [18:04] <dbaron> dbaron: sounds reasonable to me
  406. # [18:04] <fantasai> fantasai: Other possible options are center-alignment, or end-alignment, or left-alignment, or right-alignment
  407. # [18:04] <dbaron> Glenn: so the border on a page is more like outline than border in the normal CSS box model?
  408. # [18:05] <dbaron> fantasai: It's like border, but it's not part of the document formatting.
  409. # [18:05] <fantasai> fantasai: it's more like decorating the window or chrome of the browser; doesn't play with document at all
  410. # [18:06] <bradk> re: "In most cases border image area matches border area." Without border-image, wouldn't the image be clipped to the curves when there is border-radius? Would the corner behavior depend on if there was a non-initial value of border-image?
  411. # [18:06] <fantasai> bradk, bounding box is always rectangular
  412. # [18:07] <fantasai> RESOLVED: accept text for issue 26 pending alexmog and vincents' approval
  413. # [18:07] <bradk> OK. Actually, if border box is used, it would still be rectangular, but with transparent areas outside the borde-radius corners. So, never mind.
  414. # [18:08] <fantasai> Florian: I don't think we can solve all these issues. I'm fine if we can solve all the issue by next telecon. but not if it's an unbounded task
  415. # [18:08] <fantasai> dbaron: I suppose so
  416. # [18:08] <dbaron> I'd sort of like to hear Tab's opinion
  417. # [18:08] <oyvind> I find it a bit hard to believe that these are the only issues...
  418. # [18:08] <fantasai> sylvain +1 to Florian
  419. # [18:09] * Joins: danielweck (danielweck@86.158.25.225)
  420. # [18:09] <mollydotcom> "editor doesn't mean decider" - Glazou
  421. # [18:09] * mollydotcom likes that quote
  422. # [18:10] * sylvaing editing: with great responsibility comes no power
  423. # [18:10] <dbaron> dbaron: element() is NOT the only section of this spec that's been substantially rewritten since last call
  424. # [18:11] <glenn> editor's propose, we members dispose
  425. # [18:12] <fantasai> discussion of whether to push element() to L4
  426. # [18:13] <fantasai> - how much time is necessary to resolve issues and get necessary reviews
  427. # [18:13] <fantasai> - how unstable is the feature, how many more issues might show up
  428. # [18:13] <fantasai> - etc.
  429. # [18:13] <danielweck> great...I misread the UTC/GMT concall time ... <idiot-emoticon>
  430. # [18:14] <Zakim> -ChrisL
  431. # [18:14] <fantasai> glazou: gradients is urgent. element() is not.
  432. # [18:14] <ChrisL> @danielweck never mind its all back to normal next week
  433. # [18:14] <dbaron> (argument between glazou and molly)
  434. # [18:14] <fantasai> glazou: Given remaining issues and discussion today, I support deferring element.
  435. # [18:14] <fantasai> Florian: how do we resolve on this?
  436. # [18:14] <mollydotcom> I support deferring element.
  437. # [18:14] * Bert wondering if a generic way to duplicate elements wouldn't make both versions of element() redundant. Something like: body {grid: "a . b"} div.dup {flow: a, b} /* flow into both a and b */
  438. # [18:15] <fantasai> Straw poll
  439. # [18:15] <stearns> +1 to defer
  440. # [18:15] <glazou> Zakim, who is on the phone ?
  441. # [18:15] <Zakim> On the phone I see sylvaing, glazou, [IPcaller], Molly_Holzschlag, glenn (muted), dbaron, stearns, smfr, dstorey, fantasai, antonp, [Microsoft.a], bradk, [Microsoft.aa], [Apple],
  442. # [18:15] <danielweck> ChrisL: okay thanks
  443. # [18:15] <Zakim> ... Bert, ??P14, glenn.a
  444. # [18:15] <Zakim> [Apple] has hober
  445. # [18:15] <fantasai> Poll: defer or work on element(
  446. # [18:15] <fantasai> sylvaing: defer
  447. # [18:15] <glenn> defer
  448. # [18:15] <fantasai> glazou: defer
  449. # [18:15] <fantasai> Florian: defer
  450. # [18:15] <fantasai> Molly: defer
  451. # [18:15] <fantasai> glenn: defer
  452. # [18:15] <arronei> arronei: defer
  453. # [18:15] <fantasai> dbaron: work on it, but ok with deferring
  454. # [18:15] <fantasai> alan: defer
  455. # [18:15] <fantasai> smfr: defer
  456. # [18:15] <fantasai> dstorey: defer
  457. # [18:15] <bradk> I said defer
  458. # [18:15] <fantasai> fantasai: I think I would prefer to defer
  459. # [18:16] <fantasai> anton: defer
  460. # [18:16] <fantasai> Rossen: defer
  461. # [18:16] <fantasai> ?: defer
  462. # [18:16] <fantasai> Bert: defer
  463. # [18:16] <stearns> that's the most consistent straw-poll I've seen from this group yet
  464. # [18:16] <hober> s/?/hober/
  465. # [18:16] <fantasai> RESOLVED: element() deferred to L4
  466. # [18:16] <sylvaing> so moving to CR?
  467. # [18:17] <Rossen> Zakim, [Microsoft.a] is me
  468. # [18:17] <Zakim> +Rossen; got it
  469. # [18:17] <fantasai> dbaron: Substantial sections have been rewritten in last week.5, and should have time to review those before CR
  470. # [18:17] <fantasai> +1
  471. # [18:17] <fantasai> glazou: So let's make decision to move to CR at beginning of next concall
  472. # [18:17] <fantasai> Florian: Is that long enough for you, dbaron?
  473. # [18:17] <fantasai> dbaron: I'll see.
  474. # [18:18] * Quits: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.169) (Quit: Fire on main board error, client combusted)
  475. # [18:18] <fantasai> fantasai: Let's go for 1 week and see where we get to.
  476. # [18:18] <Zakim> -smfr
  477. # [18:18] <Zakim> -bradk
  478. # [18:18] <Zakim> -glazou
  479. # [18:18] * Quits: bradk (bradk@99.7.175.117) (Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/ )
  480. # [18:18] <Zakim> -[Apple]
  481. # [18:18] <Zakim> -antonp
  482. # [18:18] <fantasai> Meeting closed.
  483. # [18:18] <Zakim> -stearns
  484. # [18:18] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.aa]
  485. # [18:18] <Zakim> -sylvaing
  486. # [18:18] * Quits: Rossen (Rossen@131.107.174.165) (Quit: Rossen)
  487. # [18:18] * Parts: antonp (50a94e63@64.62.228.82)
  488. # [18:18] <Zakim> -dstorey
  489. # [18:18] <Zakim> -dbaron
  490. # [18:18] <Zakim> -Rossen
  491. # [18:18] <Zakim> -Molly_Holzschlag
  492. # [18:18] <Zakim> -Bert
  493. # [18:18] <Zakim> -glenn.a
  494. # [18:18] <Zakim> -??P14
  495. # [18:18] <Zakim> -fantasai
  496. # [18:18] * Parts: mollydotcom (mollyh@68.231.165.244)
  497. # [18:19] <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
  498. # [18:19] * Quits: arronei (arronei@131.107.0.98) (Quit: arronei)
  499. # [18:19] * florianr felt a bit lonely arguing for defering, but the straw poll showed that wasn't quite the situation. Interesting
  500. # [18:19] <tantek> good to see the sense of urgency to move things forward encouraging swifter consensus with what to wrap-up vs. what to defer.
  501. # [18:21] <fantasai> florianr: straw polls are useful like that :) that's why we have them
  502. # [18:21] * Joins: arronei (arronei@131.107.0.69)
  503. # [18:21] * fantasai still needs to review Tab's complete rewrite of the object sizing algo :/
  504. # [18:21] * fantasai already had to revert some of his changes to that section...
  505. # [18:22] * Quits: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19) (Quit: glazou)
  506. # [18:23] * Quits: dstorey (Adium@67.180.84.179) (Quit: Leaving.)
  507. # [18:24] <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, glenn, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
  508. # [18:24] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  509. # [18:24] <Zakim> Attendees were glenn, sylvaing, glazou, [IPcaller], Molly_Holzschlag, +1.415.766.aaaa, dbaron, +1.206.550.aabb, hober, stearns, smfr, JohnJansen, +8521616aadd, dstorey,
  510. # [18:24] <Zakim> ... +1.415.832.aaee, antonp, krit, fantasai, [Microsoft], bradk, Rossen, ChrisL, Bert, SteveZ, +47.21.65.aaff, +47.21.65.aagg, howcome
  511. # [18:25] * Quits: danielweck (danielweck@86.158.25.225) (Quit: danielweck)
  512. # [18:29] * Parts: oyvind (oyvinds@213.236.208.22)
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  519. # [19:02] <shepazu> dbaron: who would be a good person to talk to about Developer Relations at Mozilla?
  520. # [19:03] * Joins: jet (jet@67.169.43.128)
  521. # [19:03] <shepazu> Christian? Beard? Stormy?
  522. # [19:04] * Joins: jet_ (jet@67.169.43.128)
  523. # [19:04] * Quits: jet (jet@67.169.43.128) (Connection reset by peer)
  524. # [19:04] * jet_ is now known as jet
  525. # [19:06] <dbaron> shepazu, Stormy
  526. # [19:06] <shepazu> dbaron: ok, thanks
  527. # [19:19] * Quits: florianr (florianr@213.236.208.22) (Quit: Leaving.)
  528. # [19:28] * Quits: glenn (gadams@71.218.126.59) (Client exited)
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  530. # [19:30] * Quits: dstorey (Adium@144.189.101.1) (Quit: Leaving.)
  531. # [19:48] <fantasai> sylvaing: Can you poke Phil about linking the issues list from http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-grid-layout/?
  532. # [19:56] * Quits: jet (jet@67.169.43.128) (Quit: jet)
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  534. # [20:00] <sylvaing> fantasai: will do
  535. # [20:01] * Joins: jet_ (jet@67.169.43.128)
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  537. # [20:01] * Quits: jet_ (jet@67.169.43.128) (Connection reset by peer)
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  540. # [20:15] <sylvaing> fantasai: he seems to have done so already; it points to https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=CSS&component=Grid+Layout&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED, which is legit
  541. # [20:24] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  542. # [20:24] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.169)
  543. # [20:28] * Joins: drublic (drublic@77.2.139.51)
  544. # [20:49] <fantasai> sylvaing: yeah, I found the bugzilla list shortly afterward and edited it in...
  545. # [20:50] <sylvaing> damn, you're good...
  546. # [20:50] <fantasai> I have to be, right? Otherwise nothing would ever get published. :/
  547. # [20:51] <Ms2ger> All too true
  548. # [20:55] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@173.228.85.36) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  549. # [21:37] * Joins: leaverou (leaverou@67.180.84.179)
  550. # [21:45] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@159.63.23.38)
  551. # [21:49] <sylvaing> fair point
  552. # [21:49] <sylvaing> the day you move to france and pick up on strikes and 35-hour weeks, we are screwed
  553. # [21:50] * fantasai used to clock in at ~30hrs/wk of billable time, actually
  554. # [21:51] <fantasai> I'm still in the process of recalibrating to employee clocking.
  555. # [21:51] <fantasai> Hard to do with so much travel, though. I always work more hours on work trips than I do when I'm home...
  556. # [21:57] <sylvaing> well, i'm not just talking billable time. i mean, you don't bill the WG for all the stuff you do, right?
  557. # [21:57] <fantasai> no, but I've billed HP, MS, Mozilla, and Antenna House for WG work...
  558. # [21:59] * Joins: arno (arno@192.150.10.200)
  559. # [22:00] <fantasai> billable hours doesn't include the time I spend being distracted
  560. # [22:00] <fantasai> or otherwise unproductive
  561. # [22:00] <fantasai> or handling overhead
  562. # [22:00] <sylvaing> right
  563. # [22:01] <TabAtkins_> My billable hours do.
  564. # [22:02] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: you're an employee
  565. # [22:02] <TabAtkins_> I consider it a good day when I get four hours of productive work done.
  566. # [22:02] <Ms2ger> fantasai, so are you! :)
  567. # [22:02] <TabAtkins_> Thought that obviously doesn't count time spent reading emails at home.
  568. # [22:02] <fantasai> I am now! But I wasn't until last year. :)
  569. # [22:02] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: I'm going to rewrite that paragraph you rewrote. ^_^ I hated that language originally, and was happy to replace it, but now you've brought back most of it!
  570. # [22:02] <sylvaing> Tab, yes. Office time is not the whole story.
  571. # [22:03] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: well don't regress things this time!
  572. # [22:03] * Quits: arno (arno@192.150.10.200) (Quit: Leaving.)
  573. # [22:03] <TabAtkins_> I don't actually understand what I regressed.
  574. # [22:04] <TabAtkins_> Oh, was there a <dfn> around those terms before?
  575. # [22:04] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Mar/0494.html
  576. # [22:04] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Mar/0496.html
  577. # [22:05] <TabAtkins_> Yes, I'm looking at those emails.
  578. # [22:05] <fantasai> ping me when you're done rewriting, so I can review it
  579. # [22:05] <TabAtkins_> I just didn't understand what you said in them.
  580. # [22:06] <fantasai> Ok, let me break it down for you.
  581. # [22:06] <fantasai> "But you've lost all consideration of images with only a width
  582. # [22:06] <fantasai> > or only a height"
  583. # [22:07] <fantasai> Theses are the possible cases:
  584. # [22:07] <fantasai> * has width + height + aspect ratio
  585. # [22:07] <fantasai> * has width
  586. # [22:07] <fantasai> * has height
  587. # [22:07] <fantasai> * has aspect ratio
  588. # [22:07] <fantasai> * has no intrinsic sizes
  589. # [22:07] <fantasai> Your rewrite is clear about 1, 4, and 5. The old text is clear that all five exist
  590. # [22:07] <fantasai> "you've dropped the mention of embedded documents,
  591. # [22:07] <fantasai> > which is a useful example."
  592. # [22:07] <fantasai> I don't understand how this point is unclear...
  593. # [22:08] <fantasai> "This rewrite also drops the definitions of 'intrinsic width', 'intrinsic
  594. # [22:08] <fantasai> height', and 'intrinsic aspect ratio'.
  595. # [22:08] <fantasai> "
  596. # [22:08] <fantasai> nor this part
  597. # [22:08] <fantasai> I can paraphrase them for you if that would help?
  598. # [22:09] <fantasai> First one is "The old text mentioned embedded documents as an example of an object without intrinsic dimensions. The new text does not have this example. It would be better to have this example, unless you have a good reason for deleting it."
  599. # [22:09] <fantasai> Second one is
  600. # [22:09] <fantasai> "The old text has definitions for 'intrinsic width', 'intrinsic height', and 'intrinsic aspect ratio
  601. # [22:10] <fantasai> '. The new text does not have such definitions, leaving the various instances of these terms undefined."
  602. # [22:10] <fantasai> Is it clear now?
  603. # [22:10] <fantasai> If not, point out which bit is unclear, and I will try a differen paraphrase......
  604. # [22:31] <TabAtkins_> You could have just said "you dropped the sentence explicitly talking about an image having only a width or height".
  605. # [22:32] <TabAtkins_> And "you accidentally dropped the part of the markup that actually had <dfn>s around 'intrinsic width' etc."
  606. # [22:32] <TabAtkins_> All fixed now in my rewrite, btw.
  607. # [22:32] <fantasai> I don't care about that sentence. I care that the concept is clear
  608. # [22:32] <fantasai> And the <dfn>s aren't the point; the old text actually had some semblance of a definition as well
  609. # [22:33] <TabAtkins_> The preceding paragraph has a definition.
  610. # [22:33] <fantasai> no, it defines "intrinsic"
  611. # [22:33] <TabAtkins_> It's informal, because, well, the concept is kinda informal.
  612. # [22:34] <fantasai> s/may/can/g;
  613. # [22:34] <fantasai> this isn't an rfc2119 use
  614. # [22:34] <TabAtkins_> Oh, whoops.
  615. # [22:34] <fantasai> the object is not out-of-conformance if it fails to comply
  616. # [22:34] <fantasai> it just can't
  617. # [22:35] <fantasai> s/all raster/raster/ please
  618. # [22:35] <TabAtkins_> Hm, why?
  619. # [22:35] <fantasai> less words is better?
  620. # [22:35] <TabAtkins_> Sounds reasonable.
  621. # [22:36] * fantasai is also suspicous that someone has/will invent a raster format that only has an aspect ratio somehow
  622. # [22:36] * fantasai or something like that
  623. # [22:36] <TabAtkins_> That sounds impossible on its face.
  624. # [22:36] <TabAtkins_> Given the definition of "raster image".
  625. # [22:37] <fantasai> pixellated graphics designed to be pixellated but scalable? :)
  626. # [22:37] <TabAtkins_> That'd still be a vector format, no?
  627. # [22:37] * fantasai has no idea
  628. # [22:38] * fantasai thinks <span class="note"> plus parens is excessive
  629. # [22:38] <TabAtkins_> Hm, probably.
  630. # [22:39] <fantasai> I also don't see why it can't be normative like it was in the previous version
  631. # [22:39] <fantasai> Like, seriously, you didn't have to revert *everything*
  632. # [22:39] <fantasai> :)
  633. # [22:39] <fantasai> I think what bothers me about your rewrite is that it's one very long sentence with parentheticals that in some cases are themselves long sentences
  634. # [22:40] <TabAtkins_> Because I'm not making a normative statement, just giving a reminder that you can't have two.
  635. # [22:40] <TabAtkins_> What bothered me about my old text was that it was just a pile of sentence fragments *and* still had long parentheticals.
  636. # [22:40] <fantasai> hehehe
  637. # [22:40] * fantasai doesn't have a good solution to this
  638. # [22:40] <TabAtkins_> Also: MY INBOX WON'T GO DOWN
  639. # [22:40] <fantasai> ?
  640. # [22:41] <fantasai> TabAtkins: statements of fact are allowed in the spec. They don't need to be marked in a Note
  641. # [22:41] <TabAtkins_> I keep trying to clean my inbox in between talking with you and making edits, and when I return it's back up to where it was before.
  642. # [22:41] <fantasai> lol
  643. # [22:41] * fantasai should send you some email simultaneously ;)
  644. # [22:41] * Joins: arno (arno@192.150.10.200)
  645. # [22:41] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: Sure, but I feel it can be mistaken here for attempting to ill-define something.
  646. # [22:41] * Quits: arno (arno@192.150.10.200) (Quit: Leaving.)
  647. # [22:42] * TabAtkins_ thinks it's time to adjust his public-html filter to auto-archive.
  648. # [22:42] <fantasai> I don't see how adding "An object cannot have only two intrinsic dimensions, as any two automatically imply the third. For example, an image with a defined width and aspect ratio also has a defined height implied by the width and aspect ratio."
  649. # [22:42] <fantasai> could be problematic
  650. # [22:42] <TabAtkins_> Less words is better?
  651. # [22:42] * Quits: jet (jet@67.169.43.128) (Quit: jet)
  652. # [22:43] * fantasai deleted the "Note"
  653. # [22:43] * fantasai thinks that makes it less
  654. # [22:43] <fantasai> :)
  655. # [22:43] <TabAtkins_> It's in our style guide!
  656. # [22:43] * fantasai also took out the <span class="note"> and it is therefore compliant with the style guide
  657. # [22:43] <TabAtkins_> nuuuuuu!
  658. # [22:44] * tantek scrolls up
  659. # [22:44] <fantasai> The other thing that's a bit troublesome imo is that we start by describing objects with no intrinsic dimensions
  660. # [22:44] <fantasai> and finishing by describing ones that have all three
  661. # [22:44] <fantasai> whereas the reader is most likely to be familiar with the latter
  662. # [22:44] <TabAtkins_> It felt better that way.
  663. # [22:44] <TabAtkins_> But I can try reordering.
  664. # [22:45] <fantasai> I know. It's because of the exact wording you used. >_<
  665. # [22:45] * TabAtkins_ just likes going from 0 up.
  666. # [22:46] <fantasai> Probably need to solve the excessively long parentheticals inside excessively long sentence along with the reordering.
  667. # [22:46] <tantek> looks like another nice fantasai/TabAtkins back/forth. good times. pass the popcorn.
  668. # [22:46] <fantasai> This is the trouble with wording... there's subtle things about it that get tangled when you do simple things like reordering
  669. # [22:46] <tantek> +1
  670. # [22:46] <TabAtkins_> Let me poke at it a bit.
  671. # [22:47] <fantasai> kk
  672. # [22:47] * fantasai will continue trying to tweak the wording on the minutes ;)
  673. # [22:47] <TabAtkins_> Also: grr, I got in a stupid inconsistent state in Hg yesterday and had to reset the whole repo.
  674. # [22:47] * fantasai trying to make it understandable to ppl who weren't there
  675. # [22:47] <TabAtkins_> stupid merge conflicts.
  676. # [22:47] <fantasai> ummm
  677. # [22:47] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: http://wiki.csswg.org/tools/hg ?
  678. # [22:47] <TabAtkins_> Or rather, stupid documentation that doesn't explain how to solve merge conflicts during a rebase properly.
  679. # [22:48] <fantasai> it suggests hg rebase --abort and then using hg merge
  680. # [22:48] <fantasai> which seems fair if you have complicated merge conflicts...
  681. # [22:49] * fantasai wrote a chapter on hg resolve on the flight back from sxsw
  682. # [22:49] <fantasai> "The more frequently you synchronize, the less likely you are to encounter merge issues. " ^_^
  683. # [22:50] * fantasai uses mercurial queues instead of rebase, never could figure out rebase
  684. # [22:53] <Ms2ger> All I've figured out about rebase is that it tends to break stuff
  685. # [22:54] <fantasai> heh
  686. # [22:54] <Ms2ger> Removing random files, stuff like that
  687. # [22:54] <fantasai> :/
  688. # [22:55] <Ms2ger> But hey, maybe it handles repos that are smaller than mozilla-central better
  689. # [22:55] <fantasai> that seems like an odd problem to have on scaling
  690. # [22:56] <fantasai> http://fantasai.inkedblade.net/tools/mq
  691. # [22:56] <fantasai> They day I sat down to learn Mercurial for mozilla-central, I wrote myself a perl script out of my notes.
  692. # [22:57] <Ms2ger> Eww, perl ;)
  693. # [23:00] * fantasai suspects howcome's comments didn't get minuted correctly, and has no idea how to fix them
  694. # [23:04] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: It wasn't a complicated conflict at all. The Overview.html had two lines in the header different. AND EVERYTHING WENT RETARDED.
  695. # [23:04] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: Did you figure out how to use hg resolve?
  696. # [23:04] <TabAtkins_> I use rebase because that's how I learned to use git, to keep a prettier history.
  697. # [23:05] <Ms2ger> MQ gives you a pretty history as well
  698. # [23:05] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: I'm not sure. Like I said, it all went pear-shaped, so I just blew away the repo and started over.
  699. # [23:05] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: Yeah, if you have merge conflicts, you need to use hg rebase.
  700. # [23:05] <fantasai> rebase or merge, doesn't matter
  701. # [23:05] * fantasai didn't know how to solve conflicts in hg until she wrote the docs for it last week
  702. # [23:06] <Ms2ger> Yay docs!
  703. # [23:06] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: http://wiki.csswg.org/tools/hg#resolving-conflictshg-resolve
  704. # [23:06] <TabAtkins_> I eventually got to a state where I had no pending commits that it would tell me about, no pending *un*committed changes, and I was synced against latest head, but it still failed to rebase.
  705. # [23:06] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: use MQ? :)
  706. # [23:06] * fantasai offers her perl script as documentation
  707. # [23:06] <fantasai> :) :)
  708. # [23:06] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: Yeah, I did what that page describes, but I think I'd already screwed things up by then.
  709. # [23:07] <TabAtkins_> Anyway, if I just don't screw around and use resolve properly, I think I'll be okay.
  710. # [23:07] * Quits: lgombos_ (Laszlo@86.217.58.90) (Ping timeout)
  711. # [23:07] <fantasai> okay
  712. # [23:14] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: In my rewrite of that paragraph, I realized that the whole point is just to present those examples, so I'm removing all the non-parenthetical text.
  713. # [23:15] <stearns> and the parentheses, I hope
  714. # [23:15] <TabAtkins_> You'd think so, yes.
  715. # [23:23] * Quits: Ms2ger (Ms2ger@81.242.178.33) (Quit: nn)
  716. # [23:50] * sylvaing is now known as sylvaing_away
  717. # [23:54] * Quits: drublic (drublic@77.2.139.51) (Client exited)
  718. # Session Close: Thu Mar 22 00:00:00 2012

The end :)