/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2012-03-28 / end

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  4. # [00:01] * fantasai just lists the background properties as applying to ::first-line for now, should be an issue about applying others
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  20. # [01:30] * fantasai pokes TabAtkins
  21. # [01:32] <TabAtkins> Hm?
  22. # [01:32] <fantasai> you were going to copy some intrinsic dimensions text from 2.1
  23. # [01:32] <fantasai> TabAtkins: ^
  24. # [01:33] <TabAtkins> I did that, yes.
  25. # [01:34] * fantasai not seeing it
  26. # [01:37] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Also did you update the Changes section with the gradients stuff?
  27. # [01:38] <TabAtkins> After looking closely at the text, I decided that the current text was equal or better in nearly every aspect. I ended up copying over just a single sentence from it.
  28. # [01:38] <fantasai> kk
  29. # [01:38] <TabAtkins> I did not update the changes section yet.
  30. # [01:38] <fantasai> TabAtkins: we should probably add the security paragraph about intrinsic dimensions, though
  31. # [01:39] <TabAtkins> Okay.
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  106. # [17:32] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
  107. # [17:32] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 36 minutes
  108. # [17:32] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
  109. # [17:32] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
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  115. # [18:03] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  116. # [18:03] <Zakim> +??P20
  117. # [18:03] <florian_> Zakim, I am ??P20
  118. # [18:03] <Zakim> +florian_; got it
  119. # [18:04] * Joins: oyvind (oyvinds@213.236.208.22)
  120. # [18:05] <Zakim> +??P30
  121. # [18:05] * Joins: smfr (smfr@173.228.90.231)
  122. # [18:05] <glazou> Zakim, ??P30 is me
  123. # [18:05] * Joins: antonp (50a94e63@64.62.228.82)
  124. # [18:06] <Zakim> +??P33
  125. # [18:06] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
  126. # [18:06] <Zakim> +Molly_Holzschlag
  127. # [18:06] <glazou> Zakim, ?P33 is dstorey
  128. # [18:06] <Zakim> sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named '?P33'
  129. # [18:06] <Zakim> +hober
  130. # [18:07] <dstorey> Zakim, ??P33 is me
  131. # [18:07] <Zakim> +dstorey; got it
  132. # [18:07] <Zakim> +antonp
  133. # [18:08] <Zakim> +stearns
  134. # [18:08] <Zakim> +smfr
  135. # [18:08] <Zakim> +??P52
  136. # [18:08] * Joins: JohnJansen (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  137. # [18:08] <glazou> Zakim, ??P52 is rossen
  138. # [18:09] <Zakim> +rossen; got it
  139. # [18:09] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  140. # [18:09] <Zakim> +SteveZ
  141. # [18:09] <Zakim> +fantasai
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  144. # [18:10] <Zakim> + +1.206.427.aaaa
  145. # [18:10] <Zakim> +sylvaing
  146. # [18:10] <vhardy_> zakim, who is here?
  147. # [18:10] <Zakim> On the phone I see florian_, glazou, dstorey, Molly_Holzschlag, hober, antonp, stearns, smfr, rossen, [IPcaller], SteveZ, fantasai, +1.206.427.aaaa, sylvaing
  148. # [18:10] <Zakim> On IRC I see vhardy_, dbaron, JohnJansen, antonp, smfr, oyvind, dstorey, glenn, Ms2ger, arno, Zakim, glazou, florian_, drublic, miketaylr, danielfilho, mollydotcom, SimonSapin,
  149. # [18:10] <Zakim> ... myakura, logbot, alexmog, gsnedders, vhardy, shans, sylvaing, kojiishi, krijnhuman, hober, fantasai, arronei, Bert, Hixie, kennyluck, TabAtkins, Liam, shepazu, RRSAgent,
  150. # [18:10] <Zakim> ... macpherson, CSSWG_LogBot, ed, plinss, pjrm, stearns, trackbot, paul___irish, Echoes
  151. # [18:10] <vhardy_> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
  152. # [18:10] <Zakim> +vhardy_; got it
  153. # [18:10] <Zakim> -sylvaing
  154. # [18:10] * Joins: Katie (kellison@198.228.221.39)
  155. # [18:10] <glenn> zakim, what is code?
  156. # [18:10] * Joins: SteveZ (chatzilla@24.6.120.172)
  157. # [18:11] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, glenn.
  158. # [18:11] <glazou> Zakim, aaaa is Cathy
  159. # [18:11] <JohnJansen> Zakim, Microsoft has JohnJansen
  160. # [18:11] * Joins: tantek (tantek@76.115.51.221)
  161. # [18:11] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  162. # [18:11] <JohnJansen> Zakim, Microsoft has JohnJansen
  163. # [18:11] <Zakim> +Cathy; got it
  164. # [18:11] <Zakim> +JohnJansen; got it
  165. # [18:11] <glazou> Zakim, code?
  166. # [18:11] <Zakim> JohnJansen was already listed in [Microsoft], JohnJansen
  167. # [18:11] <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), glazou
  168. # [18:11] <Zakim> +dbaron
  169. # [18:11] <Zakim> +??P78
  170. # [18:12] <Zakim> +Bert
  171. # [18:12] <Zakim> +sylvaing
  172. # [18:12] <glenn> zakim, ??p78 is glenn
  173. # [18:12] <glenn> morning
  174. # [18:12] <Zakim> +glenn; got it
  175. # [18:12] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
  176. # [18:12] <arronei> zakim, microsoft has me
  177. # [18:12] * dbaron Zakim, who is on the phone?
  178. # [18:12] <Zakim> +arronei; got it
  179. # [18:12] * Zakim sees on the phone: florian_, glazou, dstorey, Molly_Holzschlag, hober, antonp, stearns, smfr, rossen, vhardy_, SteveZ, fantasai, Cathy, [Microsoft], dbaron, glenn, Bert, sylvaing,
  180. # [18:12] * Zakim ... [Microsoft.a]
  181. # [18:12] * Zakim [Microsoft] has arronei
  182. # [18:12] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  183. # [18:13] <glazou> regrets: Brad, Tab, chrisL
  184. # [18:13] * Joins: howcome (howcome@213.236.208.22)
  185. # [18:13] <tantek> Zakim, IPCaller is me
  186. # [18:13] <Zakim> +tantek; got it
  187. # [18:13] <glazou> regrets: plinss
  188. # [18:13] <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
  189. # [18:13] * Joins: jet (jet@166.250.32.73)
  190. # [18:13] * Joins: jdaggett (jdaggett@12.197.88.10)
  191. # [18:13] <fantasai> glazou: Tantek, noticed you sent an extra agenda item. Try to do that, but let's see if it fits.
  192. # [18:13] <fantasai> glazou: First thing on agenda is moving CSS3 Images to CR
  193. # [18:13] <Zakim> + +47.23.69.aabb
  194. # [18:14] <fantasai> glazou: Left 1 week to members to think about it and read the spec. What's the opinion?
  195. # [18:14] <fantasai> dbaron: I'm curious what conclusions fantasai and Tab came to
  196. # [18:14] <howcome> zakim, aabb is me
  197. # [18:14] <Zakim> +howcome; got it
  198. # [18:14] <Zakim> + +1.415.832.aacc
  199. # [18:14] <arno> Zakim, aacc is me
  200. # [18:14] <Zakim> +arno; got it
  201. # [18:15] <fantasai> fantasai: Only thing that changed since last week is the object sizing algorithm. I sent mail on those changes.
  202. # [18:15] <fantasai> dbaron: I didn't get a chance to look, but probably ok to move on
  203. # [18:15] <fantasai> florian: Opera is happy to publish
  204. # [18:15] <fantasai> glazou: me too
  205. # [18:15] <fantasai> Bert, sylvain: +1
  206. # [18:16] <fantasai> RESOLVED: CSS3 Images goes to CR
  207. # [18:17] <fantasai> Topic: Issues for CSS3 Transitions
  208. # [18:17] <Ms2ger> \o/
  209. # [18:17] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Feb/1083.html
  210. # [18:17] <kennyluck> \o/
  211. # [18:17] <fantasai> glazou: Anything else to review here?
  212. # [18:17] <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2012JanMar/0454.html
  213. # [18:17] <fantasai> dbaron: Nothing to discuss from 1st message -- need proposals
  214. # [18:17] <fantasai> dbaron: 2nd message, I made edits reflecting previous 2 discussions we had from 1st message.
  215. # [18:18] <fantasai> dbaron: 4 things want to follow up on
  216. # [18:18] <fantasai> dbaron: Straightforward, but wanted to run by ppl before we publish again
  217. # [18:18] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Mar/0593.html
  218. # [18:18] <fantasai> dbaron: 1st, we agreed that when transition-? and transition-duration are 0, there is no transition
  219. # [18:18] <fantasai> dbaron: Didn't discuss what happens if transition-delay is negative
  220. # [18:18] <fantasai> dbaron: Wrote in spec that there's no transition if the end of the transition point is not in the future
  221. # [18:19] <fantasai> glazou, florian agree
  222. # [18:19] <fantasai> +simon
  223. # [18:19] * Zakim wonders where simon is
  224. # [18:19] * fantasai oops
  225. # [18:19] <smfr> Zakim, right here
  226. # [18:19] <Zakim> I don't understand 'right here', smfr
  227. # [18:19] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Accept proposal
  228. # [18:20] <fantasai> dbaron: Next one, we'd discussed rounding font-weight where we round to nearest 100
  229. # [18:20] <fantasai> dbaron: For integers we floor, though, instead of rounding to nearest
  230. # [18:20] <fantasai> dbaron: thought it would be best to be consistent, so made it floor. There is an open issue on rounding, but thought it best to make consistent
  231. # [18:20] * fantasai wonders whether -.0001 rounds to -1 or 0
  232. # [18:21] <fantasai> florian_: Not sure I like that. One thing I liked with the previous one was
  233. # [18:21] <glazou> we don't have negative font weights elika...
  234. # [18:21] <fantasai> florian_: If you're just in a loop, the time you spend on any of them would be same as others
  235. # [18:21] * fantasai but we have negative integers
  236. # [18:21] <fantasai> florian: This changes that
  237. # [18:21] * Joins: Cathy (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  238. # [18:21] <sylvaing> we don't but it's a valid point for integer interpolation based on real numbers
  239. # [18:21] <fantasai> glazou: Not sure I agree with that based on the proposal
  240. # [18:22] <fantasai> Bert: Don't you want the step function for that?
  241. # [18:22] <fantasai> florian_: If you're looping through font weights...
  242. # [18:22] <fantasai> fantasai: Why would you want to do that? It's not a smooth transition. You'll be jumping all around, pretty randomly too
  243. # [18:22] <fantasai> dbaron: I'm happy to change it back. Not what we implement, but I can switch it back to the other way.
  244. # [18:22] <fantasai> florian: I don't think it's critical, but prefer other behavior.
  245. # [18:23] <fantasai> smfr: We do have an issue filed that floor behavior is different from SMIL and SVG
  246. # [18:23] <fantasai> smfr: We picked floor so that you didn't jump near the beginning or right near the end.
  247. # [18:23] <fantasai> smfr: Wondering if we should resolve integer-rounding before font-weight
  248. # [18:24] <fantasai> fantasai: How about we make font-weight what we want, say there's an issue with making it consistent with integers but also there's an issue with how to round integers.
  249. # [18:24] * oyvind doesn't understand how floor doesn't jump at the end
  250. # [18:24] <fantasai> fantasai: Then we can publish this, and resolve the issue later
  251. # [18:24] <fantasai> szilles: Which way are you leaning, smfr?
  252. # [18:24] <fantasai> smfr: Have to go back and think about it. Think we wanted some sensible step behavior, but leads to issues like this one.
  253. # [18:24] <fantasai> glazou: Let's adopt fantasai's proposal
  254. # [18:25] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Make font-weight round to nearest, mark issues as above
  255. # [18:25] * Joins: Rossen (Rossen@131.107.0.84)
  256. # [18:25] <fantasai> dbaron: Said transitions btw visible and intermediate values map to visible
  257. # [18:25] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.aa]
  258. # [18:25] <Zakim> -rossen
  259. # [18:25] <fantasai> dbaron: Right now we have cubic bezier functions that output results that are not in the range 0-1
  260. # [18:25] <Rossen> Zakim, [Microsoft.aa] is me
  261. # [18:25] <Zakim> +Rossen; got it
  262. # [18:26] <fantasai> dbaron: I realized that, if you're 0 or 1 or anything outside that range, you pick the appropriate endpoint
  263. # [18:26] <fantasai> dbaron: And you do the visible thing between 0 and 1
  264. # [18:26] <Zakim> +??P5
  265. # [18:26] <fantasai> dbaron: if you transition from visible to hidden, then if you're 1 or greater you're hidden
  266. # [18:26] <fantasai> smfr: Think this issue crops up with other properties where you have to clamp
  267. # [18:26] <fantasai> dbaron: Noted in spec we need to address for some others
  268. # [18:26] <Zakim> + +1.415.832.aadd
  269. # [18:27] <fantasai> smfr: Say something about clamp to 0-1 range
  270. # [18:27] <fantasai> dbaron: effectively same thing
  271. # [18:27] <jdaggett> zakim, ??p5 is me
  272. # [18:27] <Zakim> +jdaggett; got it
  273. # [18:27] <fantasai> glazou: What about current implementations?
  274. # [18:27] <fantasai> dbaron: There are implementations, not sure what they do
  275. # [18:27] * Joins: krit (Adium@192.150.10.201)
  276. # [18:27] <fantasai> smfr: Webkit animates visibilities. Think we relaxed timing functions to go beyond 0/1, but not sure the details
  277. # [18:27] <fantasai> glazou: Would be good to know what current borwsers are doing.
  278. # [18:27] <krit> zakim, who's here
  279. # [18:27] <Zakim> krit, you need to end that query with '?'
  280. # [18:27] <krit> zakim, who's here?
  281. # [18:27] <Zakim> On the phone I see florian_, glazou, dstorey, Molly_Holzschlag, hober, antonp, stearns, smfr, vhardy_, SteveZ, fantasai, Cathy, [Microsoft], dbaron, glenn, Bert, sylvaing,
  282. # [18:27] <Zakim> ... [Microsoft.a], tantek, howcome, arno, Rossen, jdaggett, +1.415.832.aadd
  283. # [18:27] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has arronei
  284. # [18:27] <Zakim> On IRC I see krit, Rossen, Cathy, jdaggett, jet, howcome, tantek, SteveZ, Katie, vhardy_, dbaron, JohnJansen, antonp, smfr, oyvind, dstorey, glenn, Ms2ger, arno, Zakim, glazou,
  285. # [18:27] <fantasai> vhardy: ... not constrained with 0-1 range
  286. # [18:27] <Zakim> ... florian_, drublic, miketaylr, danielfilho, mollydotcom, SimonSapin, myakura, logbot, alexmog, gsnedders, vhardy, shans, sylvaing, kojiishi, krijnhuman, hober, fantasai,
  287. # [18:27] <glazou> s/borwsers/browsers
  288. # [18:28] <Zakim> ... arronei, Bert, Hixie, kennyluck, TabAtkins, Liam, shepazu, RRSAgent, macpherson, CSSWG_LogBot, ed, plinss, pjrm, stearns, trackbot, paul___irish, Echoes
  289. # [18:28] <fantasai> dbaron: We allow y values to be outside 0-1 range.
  290. # [18:28] <fantasai> dbaron: I just looked at Gecko, and it does match the proposal
  291. # [18:28] <fantasai> dbaron: Dunno if I thought about the issue when I wrote it
  292. # [18:28] <jet> Zakim: hello
  293. # [18:28] <fantasai> glazou: any objections against proposal?
  294. # [18:28] <fantasai> dbaron: Proposal is, rule that you're always visible applies only between 0-1, not at or beyond 0/1
  295. # [18:28] <fantasai> vhardy: is it clear what happens what happens if you go outside the 0-1 box for colors and things like this?
  296. # [18:29] <fantasai> dbaron: No, noted as issue in spec we need to fix
  297. # [18:29] <fantasai> florian: do we need to fix independently
  298. # [18:29] <fantasai> dbaron: different for different properties
  299. # [18:29] <fantasai> vhardy: Useful for transitions
  300. # [18:29] <fantasai> glazou: Want to know what it means for colors
  301. # [18:29] <vhardy_> s/transitions/translations
  302. # [18:29] <fantasai> dbaron: for Gecko, we clamp to 0-255
  303. # [18:29] <fantasai> Bert: It's not forbidden to have colors outside that range.
  304. # [18:29] <fantasai> dbaron: That's why it's not quite the right behavior
  305. # [18:30] <fantasai> glazou: Any objections to proposal?
  306. # [18:30] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Proposal accepted
  307. # [18:30] <fantasai> dbaron: Last thing, we agreed to add pseudo-attribute to Transition event. So I called it Pseudoelement
  308. # [18:30] <fantasai> dbaron: Wanted to check a) that ppl ok with that
  309. # [18:30] <smfr> event.pseudoElement i think dbaron said
  310. # [18:30] <dbaron> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Mar/0598.html
  311. # [18:31] <fantasai> dbaron: ... something about argument ...
  312. # [18:32] <fantasai> glazou: I think both make sense
  313. # [18:32] <fantasai> glazou: no objection?
  314. # [18:32] <fantasai> RESOLVED: proposal accepted
  315. # [18:32] <fantasai> dbaron: Other things ChrisL wanted to resolve for transitions
  316. # [18:32] <dbaron> and animations
  317. # [18:32] <glazou> http://www.w3.org/mid/1936834258.20120327170804@w3.org
  318. # [18:33] <smfr> looks good to me
  319. # [18:33] <fantasai> florian: Not sure what's in the drafts, but publishing is good
  320. # [18:34] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Publish Transitions and Animations as WD
  321. # [18:34] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Mar/0234.html
  322. # [18:34] <fantasai> Topic: Animations
  323. # [18:34] * Quits: Ms2ger (Ms2ger@193.190.253.146) (Ping timeout)
  324. # [18:35] <glazou> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14632
  325. # [18:35] <fantasai> sylvaing: First one is, we talked about defining an animationCancelled event
  326. # [18:35] <fantasai> sylvaing: For animations that don't run to completion
  327. # [18:35] <fantasai> sylvaing: I'm proposing we push that to L4
  328. # [18:35] <fantasai> sylvaing: Same for all features here -- propos to move ot next level
  329. # [18:35] <smfr> no objection
  330. # [18:35] <fantasai> florian: Have we done anything other than suggest it should exist? Is there any spec?
  331. # [18:35] <fantasai> sylvaing: No, just listed as a nice-to-have
  332. # [18:35] <fantasai> florian: ok
  333. # [18:36] <glazou> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14777
  334. # [18:36] <fantasai> sylvaing: Proposal to allow animations to happen along a path
  335. # [18:36] <fantasai> RESOLVED: defer
  336. # [18:36] <glazou> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14780
  337. # [18:37] <fantasai> RESOLVED: defer both thigns liste aboe
  338. # [18:37] <smfr> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Sep/0399.html
  339. # [18:37] <fantasai> s/liste aboe/listed above/
  340. # [18:38] <fantasai> sylvaing: When you create a keyframes rule, you divide 100% by number of keyframes ...
  341. # [18:38] <fantasai> sylvaing: Idea was let's get rid of percentages, and find syntactic way to use numbers, let browser add them up / divide evenly
  342. # [18:38] <fantasai> sylvaing: There's no spec, just nice to have
  343. # [18:38] <fantasai> glazou: It's a good idea, but we can defer that.
  344. # [18:38] <smfr> no objection
  345. # [18:39] <fantasai> sylvaing: Proposal for more complex animation scenarious
  346. # [18:39] <fantasai> s/us/s/
  347. # [18:39] <glazou> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14798
  348. # [18:39] <fantasai> sylvaing: Extending calc() function to use in animation functions like animation-delay
  349. # [18:39] <fantasai> sylvaing: Advanced scenarios, don't think we need for this level
  350. # [18:39] <fantasai> RESOLVED: defer (both)
  351. # [18:40] <fantasai> sylvaing: Last one, from Lea, about animation-direction
  352. # [18:40] <fantasai> sylvaing: Takes normal and alternate
  353. # [18:40] <fantasai> sylvaing: Asking whether to add a reverse value
  354. # [18:40] <fantasai> sylvaing: Essentially would be like alternate, except only one phase
  355. # [18:40] <fantasai> dbaron: I thought we resolved to add those at one point
  356. # [18:40] <fantasai> sylvaing: ok, I missed that
  357. # [18:40] <fantasai> sylvaing: did we resolve to add all three?
  358. # [18:41] <smfr> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011May/0676.html
  359. # [18:41] <fantasai> dbaron: Thought the proposal was to have 4 values
  360. # [18:41] * fantasai can't find the resolution
  361. # [18:42] <fantasai> fantasai: If it's very easy to add, let's add it
  362. # [18:42] <fantasai> florian: Significantly easier than everything else proposed so far
  363. # [18:42] <fantasai> dbaron: This is one of those things where implementing it is less work than unprefixing it
  364. # [18:42] <fantasai> glazou: Probably authors will use a lot
  365. # [18:42] <fantasai> smfr: WebKit has an implementation already
  366. # [18:42] <smfr> webkit implements this already
  367. # [18:43] <fantasai> RESOLVED: add animation-direction: normal | alternate | reverse | reverse-alternate
  368. # [18:43] <smfr> webkit has reverse | alternate-reverse
  369. # [18:43] * Quits: jet (jet@166.250.32.73) (Quit: jet)
  370. # [18:43] * Joins: jet (jet@166.250.32.73)
  371. # [18:44] <fantasai> Topic: Selectors for fragment identifiers
  372. # [18:44] <hober> would be nice to resolve on alternate-reverse, not reverse-alternate ^^
  373. # [18:44] <fantasai> glazou: There's a community group about that, started by ? and ?
  374. # [18:44] <glazou> http://simonstl.com/articles/cssFragID.html
  375. # [18:44] <glazou> s/?/Simon St.Laurent
  376. # [18:44] * Joins: Ms2ger (Ms2ger@193.190.253.146)
  377. # [18:44] <fantasai> dbaron: Chris is most active member on their mailing list, and he's not here right now. Might be worth having him around for this discussion
  378. # [18:45] * Quits: jet (jet@166.250.32.73) (Quit: jet)
  379. # [18:45] * Joins: jet (jet@166.250.32.73)
  380. # [18:45] <dbaron> s/active member/active of WG members/
  381. # [18:45] <fantasai> Molly: Bears weight w/ other community groups starting up
  382. # [18:45] <fantasai> Molly: e.g. accessibility group for CSS
  383. # [18:45] <fantasai> Molly: ... for these community groups anyway
  384. # [18:46] <fantasai> Molly: liaison / relationship w/ groups that build things like CSS fragment identifiers, CSS a11y
  385. # [18:46] <Zakim> + +1.425.753.aaee
  386. # [18:46] <fantasai> Molly: There will be other groups that crop up, that we will need to have a relationship with
  387. # [18:46] <fantasai> glazou: Would you like to report to wg on a11y?
  388. # [18:46] <fantasai> ACTION: Molly something about a11y group
  389. # [18:46] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  390. # [18:46] * RRSAgent records action 1
  391. # [18:46] <trackbot> Created ACTION-454 - Something about a11y group [on Molly Holzschlag - due 2012-04-04].
  392. # [18:47] <fantasai> glazou: This will drastically increase our liaison work
  393. # [18:47] <glazou> tantek: ping
  394. # [18:47] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Mar/0057.html
  395. # [18:47] <fantasai> Topic: Margin collapsing
  396. # [18:48] * fantasai wonders what happend to item about CSS3 Backgrounds and Borders
  397. # [18:48] * Joins: Ms2ger` (Ms2ger@193.190.253.146)
  398. # [18:49] <fantasai> Topic: Backgrounds and Borders
  399. # [18:49] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Mar/0602.html
  400. # [18:49] <fantasai> fantasai: 2 issues that are open
  401. # [18:49] <Bert> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Mar/0602.html
  402. # [18:49] <tantek> argh, not sure why my voice wasn't going through - I was able to hear everyone.
  403. # [18:49] <tantek> I'm on Skype.
  404. # [18:49] * Quits: jet (jet@166.250.32.73) (Ping timeout)
  405. # [18:49] * mollydotcom note that I will also talk with Eric and Simon re: css fragment identifiers
  406. # [18:50] * Quits: Ms2ger (Ms2ger@193.190.253.146) (Ping timeout)
  407. # [18:50] <glazou> tantek, will do your extra item after this one if we can
  408. # [18:50] * glazou tantek: but we can't heard you
  409. # [18:50] <Bert> Fantasai: [explains the option at the bottom of that msg]
  410. # [18:50] <Bert> ... The difference is the effect of the width of the collapsed borders,
  411. # [18:50] <Bert> Dbaron: Why allow image borde ron collapsed table at all?
  412. # [18:51] <Bert> Fantasai: Why forbid it?
  413. # [18:51] <Bert> dbaron: it doesn't make much sense.
  414. # [18:51] * Quits: vhardy_ (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
  415. # [18:51] <mollydotcom> Molly: Are there strong use cases?
  416. # [18:52] <Bert> fantasai: these options resolve the issues of corners and sides.
  417. # [18:52] <tantek> glazou ok I'll try again when you ask, otherwise I'm ok with group discussing my agenda item with me just listening.
  418. # [18:52] <Bert> Stevez: would be good to see this live.
  419. # [18:52] <tantek> text-size-adjust that is
  420. # [18:52] <Bert> SteveZ: what's implemented?
  421. # [18:52] <Bert> dbaron: What I proposed, i.e., no images borders
  422. # [18:53] <tantek> aside: here is the summary of the agenda item I sent in late:
  423. # [18:53] <Bert> ... I think that was what the commenter suggeted, too.
  424. # [18:53] <tantek> I'd like to spend a few minutes on text-size-adjust if that's ok.
  425. # [18:53] <tantek> Specifically, we don't currently have a spec, and I'd like to propose
  426. # [18:53] <tantek> a (very) rough draft based on notes/research of various
  427. # [18:53] <tantek> implementations[1] if there are no objections. Obviously I'll reformat
  428. # [18:53] <tantek> my notes into our spec template before checking in an editor's draft.
  429. # [18:53] <tantek> end aside
  430. # [18:53] <glazou> saw them
  431. # [18:53] <Bert> fantasai: : I think boh these options make it straughtforward to apply.,
  432. # [18:53] * Ms2ger` tantek, [1]: missing reference
  433. # [18:53] <tantek> [1] https://wiki.mozilla.org/CSS/text-size-adjust#property_definition
  434. # [18:54] <fantasai> Bert: I think it makes sense to have an image around the table even if the borders are collaspsed inside it.
  435. # [18:54] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-writing-modes/#logical-to-physical
  436. # [18:54] <fantasai> border-collapsed table there
  437. # [18:55] <Bert> Fantasai: Imagine this table with a paper background and a ragged paper edge around it.
  438. # [18:55] <Bert> ... I think that shoul dbe fine.
  439. # [18:55] <fantasai> glazou: yeah, why not
  440. # [18:55] <Bert> glazou: Yeah, why not...
  441. # [18:56] <fantasai> dbaron: Not happy with adding features
  442. # [18:56] <fantasai> fantasai: this isn't new
  443. # [18:56] <fantasai> dbaron: I think we implemented lots of features in this spec that nobody wants
  444. # [18:57] <tantek> can we action the proposer to post a use-case to the list? or defer to level 4?
  445. # [18:57] * Joins: jet (jet@166.250.34.216)
  446. # [18:57] <fantasai> glazou: Can we defer to L4?
  447. # [18:57] <fantasai> florian: Will there be a compatibility problem if we do it later?
  448. # [18:57] <Zakim> -jdaggett
  449. # [18:57] <mollydotcom> Molly: I'd like to see some visual or real-world use cases
  450. # [18:58] <mollydotcom> Molly: My concern is priority
  451. # [18:58] * glazou why is the word "collapsing" triggering headache here ? :-)
  452. # [18:58] <dbaron> s/implemented lots of/spent too much time implementing/
  453. # [18:58] <Zakim> -tantek
  454. # [18:59] <fantasai> florian: As general principle, don't want our specs to contradict future improvements. Otherwise I'm fine
  455. # [18:59] <Zakim> +??P5
  456. # [18:59] <fantasai> florian: Can we defer to L4 without contradicting ourselves later?
  457. # [18:59] <fantasai> fantasai: Yes, there's 3 ways I can do this
  458. # [18:59] * Joins: vhardy_ (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  459. # [18:59] <fantasai> 1. Say you MAY apply to border-collapsed tables, and if you do, this is how you do it
  460. # [19:00] <Bert> (Something like: "Border images apply to table elements, but the effect of the width of collapsed borders is not defined in level 3."?)
  461. # [19:00] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  462. # [19:00] <fantasai> 2. Say you MUSTn't do this
  463. # [19:00] <fantasai> 3. Say you it's undefined, we suggest you don't do anything for now, but we might define it later
  464. # [19:00] <fantasai> ?: Mark it at-risk
  465. # [19:01] <fantasai> Molly: [...]
  466. # [19:01] <fantasai> dbaron: When it's in the spec, we get pressure to implement it
  467. # [19:01] <glazou> Zakim, who is on the phone?
  468. # [19:01] <Zakim> On the phone I see florian_, glazou, dstorey, Molly_Holzschlag, hober, antonp, stearns, smfr, vhardy_, SteveZ, fantasai, Cathy, dbaron, glenn, Bert, sylvaing, [Microsoft.a],
  469. # [19:01] <Zakim> ... howcome, arno, Rossen, +1.415.832.aadd, +1.425.753.aaee, ??P5
  470. # [19:01] <fantasai> Straw poll
  471. # [19:01] <mollydotcom> Molly: Concern that priority gets passed to implementors
  472. # [19:01] <fantasai> florian: 3
  473. # [19:01] <fantasai> glazou: 3
  474. # [19:01] <fantasai> dstorey: 3
  475. # [19:01] <fantasai> molly: 3
  476. # [19:01] <hober> hober: abstain
  477. # [19:02] <fantasai> anton: 3
  478. # [19:02] <tantek> I'm ok with 3 or 1
  479. # [19:02] <fantasai> ?: 3
  480. # [19:02] <fantasai> smfr: 3
  481. # [19:02] <arronei> arronei: 3
  482. # [19:02] <fantasai> vhardy: 3
  483. # [19:02] <fantasai> steve: 3
  484. # [19:02] <fantasai> fantasai: 1, fine with 3
  485. # [19:02] <tantek> Zakim, ??P5 is me
  486. # [19:02] <Zakim> +tantek; got it
  487. # [19:02] <fantasai> dbaron: 1 or 2. or 3 I guess
  488. # [19:02] * Quits: jdaggett (jdaggett@12.197.88.10) (Quit: jdaggett)
  489. # [19:03] <fantasai> sylvaing: 3
  490. # [19:03] <glenn> glenn: 4 (at-risk)
  491. # [19:03] <fantasai> rossen: going to round up to 3
  492. # [19:03] * Joins: jet_ (jet@12.197.88.252)
  493. # [19:03] <howcome> howcome: 3
  494. # [19:04] <Bert> Bert: 1, second choice is 3
  495. # [19:04] <tantek> and me too :)
  496. # [19:04] <tantek> let's see if this works
  497. # [19:04] <tantek> Zakim, unmute me
  498. # [19:04] <Zakim> tantek was not muted, tantek
  499. # [19:04] <glazou> https://wiki.mozilla.org/CSS/text-size-adjust#property_definition
  500. # [19:04] <fantasai> RESOLVED: make interaction with collapsed tables undefined, suggest not implementing it in L3, expect it to be defined in L4
  501. # [19:05] * Quits: Ms2ger` (Ms2ger@193.190.253.146) (Ping timeout)
  502. # [19:05] <fantasai> glazou: very rough draft of text-size-adjust
  503. # [19:05] <fantasai> glazou: He would like to have it in a WD if there's no objection
  504. # [19:05] <tantek> I can hear the telcon but apparently skype is not letting me talk
  505. # [19:05] <fantasai> glazou: Of course will reformat the notes into spec template
  506. # [19:05] * Quits: jet (jet@166.250.34.216) (Ping timeout)
  507. # [19:05] * jet_ is now known as jet
  508. # [19:05] <fantasai> florian: Opera doesn't implement that
  509. # [19:05] <tantek> oh odd, people are using -o-text-size-adjust
  510. # [19:06] <tantek> in pages today
  511. # [19:06] <tantek> oh boy
  512. # [19:06] <fantasai> glazou: They're putting the prefixes for all browsers
  513. # [19:06] <tantek> I always assume opera implements things :)
  514. # [19:06] <tantek> ok I'll update my notes
  515. # [19:06] <fantasai> florian: Thankful for ppl thinking of us, but we don't implement it.
  516. # [19:06] <fantasai> glazou: Afaict, Tantek's notes match the current implementations
  517. # [19:06] <fantasai> glazou: Any objection for turning that into an editor's draft
  518. # [19:06] <fantasai> Bert: Can someone explain what it does? "text inflation" doesn't mean anything to me
  519. # [19:07] <fantasai> dbaron: I can try to describe something
  520. # [19:07] <tantek> sorry still can't talk
  521. # [19:07] * Joins: Ms2ger` (Ms2ger@193.190.253.146)
  522. # [19:07] <fantasai> dbaron: But explanation is somewhat complicated
  523. # [19:07] <tantek> happy to include to text from dbaron
  524. # [19:07] <sylvaing> if Apple has IP, might there be an objection from them?
  525. # [19:07] <fantasai> florian: I have a guess at what it is, but not sure I'm right
  526. # [19:07] * glazou sylvaing has a good question
  527. # [19:07] <fantasai> florian: If you're a mobile browser with tap / zoom
  528. # [19:07] <tantek> this is just a question of may I start an editor's draft
  529. # [19:07] <tantek> I'm not saying I've resolved all issues
  530. # [19:07] <tantek> nor am I asking for a FPWD yet
  531. # [19:07] <fantasai> florian: You tap on something: could do 2 things, could zoom in at 100% size and if the lines are too long
  532. # [19:07] <glazou> tantek: sure
  533. # [19:07] <tantek> glazou - chair-request
  534. # [19:07] <fantasai> florian: they have to wrap
  535. # [19:07] <tantek> happy to collect issues
  536. # [19:08] <fantasai> florian: Alternatively you zoom in to make the lines fit
  537. # [19:08] <fantasai> florian: but then the font size might be too small
  538. # [19:08] <fantasai> florian: so you increase the font size
  539. # [19:08] * fantasai is confused
  540. # [19:08] <fantasai> ...
  541. # [19:08] <tantek> happy to record any disputes in the draft also
  542. # [19:09] <fantasai> szilles: Agree with Bert's comment that it needs more text before it goes in. not clear what it does
  543. # [19:09] <Zakim> -arno
  544. # [19:09] * Quits: SimonSapin (simon@82.232.219.95) (Ping timeout)
  545. # [19:09] <fantasai> glazou: Can you be more precise about concept of inflation before we decide?
  546. # [19:09] <tantek> yes
  547. # [19:09] <tantek> please action me
  548. # [19:09] <fantasai> ACTION Tantek make text-size-adjust more accurate definition of font inflation
  549. # [19:09] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  550. # [19:09] <trackbot> Created ACTION-455 - Make text-size-adjust more accurate definition of font inflation [on Tantek Çelik - due 2012-04-04].
  551. # [19:09] <tantek> hober, any objection to an editor's draft?
  552. # [19:09] <fantasai> glazou: ?
  553. # [19:10] <fantasai> smfr: Ongoing discussions within Apple
  554. # [19:10] <hober> s/smfr/hober/
  555. # [19:10] <fantasai> vhardy: Wouldn't the IPR issue get resolved when we do FPWD and the exclusion period kicks in?
  556. # [19:10] <fantasai> glazou: Yes, but if it's a problem then not worht doing
  557. # [19:10] <fantasai> glazou: Tantek, please update the draft and send us email
  558. # [19:11] <fantasai> glazou: Going to suggest keeping this on the member's list, since controversial.
  559. # [19:11] <fantasai> glazou: Tantek?
  560. # [19:11] <tantek> is ok with that, but not my preference
  561. # [19:11] <fantasai> glazou: If you move fast and refine your proposal, we can move fast and go public immediately
  562. # [19:11] <tantek> ok
  563. # [19:11] <fantasai> glazou: Let's be clear about what we publish to the general public
  564. # [19:11] <tantek> ok
  565. # [19:11] <tantek> thanks glazou
  566. # [19:12] <fantasai> glazou: Ok, and that's top of hour. Thanks everyone, talk to you next week.
  567. # [19:12] <Zakim> - +1.415.832.aadd
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  569. # [19:12] <Zakim> -dbaron
  570. # [19:12] <Zakim> -vhardy_
  571. # [19:12] <Zakim> - +1.425.753.aaee
  572. # [19:12] <Zakim> -antonp
  573. # [19:12] <Zakim> -smfr
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  575. # [19:12] <Zakim> -stearns
  576. # [19:12] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
  577. # [19:12] <Zakim> -hober
  578. # [19:12] <Zakim> -Rossen
  579. # [19:12] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  580. # [19:12] <Zakim> -Bert
  581. # [19:12] <Zakim> -dstorey
  582. # [19:12] <Zakim> -Cathy
  583. # [19:12] <Zakim> -glazou
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  585. # [19:12] <Zakim> -sylvaing
  586. # [19:12] <Zakim> -tantek
  587. # [19:12] <Zakim> -Molly_Holzschlag
  588. # [19:12] <Zakim> -howcome
  589. # [19:12] <Zakim> -florian_
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  591. # [19:12] <Zakim> -glenn
  592. # [19:13] <glazou> tantek: call that a compromise on a controversial topic and we can still move fast if you make "inflation" more precise
  593. # [19:13] * glazou has to run, bye
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  595. # [19:14] <florian_> s/if the lines are too long/if the lines are too long you wrap them/
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  598. # [19:17] <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, fantasai, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
  599. # [19:17] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  600. # [19:17] <Zakim> Attendees were florian_, glazou, Molly_Holzschlag, hober, dstorey, antonp, stearns, smfr, rossen, SteveZ, fantasai, +1.206.427.aaaa, sylvaing, vhardy_, Cathy, JohnJansen, dbaron,
  601. # [19:17] <Zakim> ... Bert, glenn, [Microsoft], arronei, tantek, +47.23.69.aabb, howcome, +1.415.832.aacc, arno, +1.415.832.aadd, jdaggett, +1.425.753.aaee
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  621. # [20:28] <fantasai> Thinking about this more, I am not really happy about making something 100% undefined when we could have made it 100% defined and just made it optional+at-risk
  622. # [20:35] <glenn> that's why i voted 4 (at-risk)
  623. # [20:36] <glenn> if someone is willing to do the work (or already has been done), i view it as better to put it out there and let it get cut down than put nothing out
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  633. # [21:29] <kennyluck> fantasai, I think it's reasonable to defer this to CSS4 where we might be able to define the behavior for 'table' elements and border-collapsed internal table elements all together.
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  635. # [21:32] <fantasai> kennyluck: internal table elements are excluded from border-image for good reason
  636. # [21:32] <fantasai> kennyluck: There's no sensible way to handle corner joins, afaict
  637. # [21:32] <fantasai> kennyluck: also if you're collapsing borders, there's not much of a use case for having images on them
  638. # [21:33] <fantasai> kennyluck: you'd get more straightforward behavior by using separated borders with zero border-spacing
  639. # [21:33] <kennyluck> That's true indeed.
  640. # [21:34] <fantasai> glenn: The work's been done, there's 2 options for how to do it, but with either one of those sentences it's 100% defined how it behaves.
  641. # [21:34] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
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  643. # [21:34] <fantasai> glenn: It's actually going to be *harder* for me to come up with the appropriate undefinedness spec than to define it!
  644. # [21:35] <glenn> then reopen the straw poll based on new information
  645. # [21:38] <fantasai> what new information?
  646. # [21:38] <fantasai> that I, the editor, find it more difficult to spec option 3 than option 1? I don't think anyone will care...
  647. # [21:41] <fantasai> I guess the main new information to me is that I'm rather more convinced that #1 was the right option :)
  648. # [21:41] <fantasai> but again, doubt anybody would care
  649. # [21:41] <fantasai> almost everyone picked 3
  650. # [21:41] * fantasai doesn't really understand why
  651. # [21:44] <fantasai> well, ok, probably it's because I didn't explain things very well
  652. # [21:47] <kennyluck> I don't care that much. I guess my preference would be 2 > 1 > 3.
  653. # [21:47] <kennyluck> 2, but say a future specification might override this...
  654. # [21:47] <fantasai> that was the point of 3
  655. # [21:48] <fantasai> To explicitly allow a future spec to override
  656. # [21:48] <stearns> are there implementations that use either 1 or 2?
  657. # [21:48] <fantasai> definitely implementations for 2
  658. # [21:49] <kennyluck> Well, they just don't apply, so 2 maybe.
  659. # [21:49] <fantasai> 1 is a MAY clause, so also implementations for 3
  660. # [21:49] <fantasai> er
  661. # [21:49] <fantasai> 1
  662. # [21:49] <fantasai> :)
  663. # [21:49] <fantasai> we have implementations in all cases, really
  664. # [21:49] <fantasai> since none of the proposals require a UA to do anything with border-image on a table
  665. # [21:49] <fantasai> it's just do we allow them to, and if so, do we define how
  666. # [21:49] <kennyluck> Yeah indeed, so this is really just spec philosophy problem, but I just don't get the MAY/SHOULD/MUST logic yet...
  667. # [21:50] <fantasai> we resolved to allow it but discourage it and define how later
  668. # [21:51] <stearns> I voted for 3 because I'd rather progress on what we already agree on, and this didn't seem crucial to define right now
  669. # [21:52] * Parts: howcome (howcome@213.236.208.22)
  670. # [21:54] <kennyluck> I like 2. better because it allows you to write more tests, even though some of the tests might be testing some of the potential extension points and become invalid one we have a future specification.
  671. # [21:54] <kennyluck> I'll note that the CSS3 Color's test suite has a bunch of tests like that: potential syntax extension that's invalid in that level.
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  674. # [21:59] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Did you update the Changes list for Images yet?
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  678. # [22:18] <glenn> ok
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  694. # Session Close: Thu Mar 29 00:00:00 2012

The end :)