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- # Session Start: Thu Apr 05 00:00:00 2012
- # Session Ident: #css
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- # [01:31] * sylvaing_away is now known as sylvaing
- # [01:33] <leaverou> Hey, I'm writing an article for netmagazine.com listing common misconceptions about web standards (mostly W3C standards) and debunking them. What are the myths you guys see out there more often?
- # [01:33] <leaverou> So far I have the CSS3 one (no such thing), the myth that W3C creates standards from up high and the myth that you have to work for a member company to contribute.
- # [01:34] <leaverou> cc fantasai sylvaing
- # [01:34] <sylvaing> hello!
- # [01:34] <hober> leaverou: I imagine Hixie & tantek might have a few opinions on that question
- # [01:35] <leaverou> hi sylvaing :)
- # [01:35] <leaverou> thx hober
- # [01:35] <tantek> leaverou - there's a myth that articles work to document web knowledge which is accrued over time and updated incrementally, whereas a wiki page works much better for that purpose.
- # [01:36] <tantek> but if you're looking for specific historical myths, there are some easy ones like:
- # [01:37] <leaverou> tantek: true, but that's a bit out of scope. The article is mostly about the standardization process and its results
- # [01:37] <sylvaing> there is a myth that -webkit means future CSS ? :)
- # [01:37] <tantek> myth: "Google invented HTML5" (per their big push at Google I/O 2009 I think)
- # [01:37] <leaverou> sylvaing: really?!
- # [01:38] <sylvaing> i know, right?
- # [01:38] <tantek> myth: "Apple invented HTML5" (misinterpreted from Steve Jobs' blog post)
- # [01:38] <leaverou> that's insane
- # [01:38] <hober> reality: tantek invented HTML5
- # [01:38] <hober> :)
- # [01:38] <tantek> myth: "H264 is an open standard" (from same Steve Jobs post)
- # [01:38] <leaverou> tantek: thanks, those are the kind of thing I'm looking for! keep 'em coming! :)
- # [01:38] <tantek> myth: "CSS3 is part of HTML5"
- # [01:38] <sylvaing> yes, that's a good one
- # [01:39] <tantek> myth: "-webkit- properties are web standard"
- # [01:39] <hober> of course, this is also a myth: WebM is an open standard
- # [01:39] <tantek> (again per same Steve Jobs post)
- # [01:39] <leaverou> I have to admit I'm quite surprised that these are actually widespread beliefs out there. Are you sure they are?
- # [01:39] <tantek> hober, what about WebM is not "open" per your definition?
- # [01:39] <leaverou> hober: why isn't it open?!
- # [01:40] <sylvaing> oh man, hober. you were doing so well....
- # [01:40] <sylvaing> one full day of margin collapsing for you.
- # [01:40] <hober> sylvaing: hahhaa, noooooo
- # [01:40] <leaverou> hahahaha
- # [01:40] <tantek> sylvaing LOL
- # [01:40] <tantek> leaverou - yes
- # [01:40] <tantek> I had to fight a big blog battle about this not that long ago
- # [01:40] <tantek> are memories that short?
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- # [01:42] <tantek> leaverou here, start with the blog posts listed here: https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Atantek.com&q=w3c
- # [01:42] <tantek> e.g. http://tantek.com/2011/020/b1/new-w3c-html5-logo
- # [01:42] <tantek> originally even W3C made the error of marketing a grab-bug of technology as "HTML5"
- # [01:42] <tantek> e.g. "The [HTML5] logo is a general-purpose visual identity for a broad set of open web technologies, including HTML5, CSS, SVG, WOFF, and others. "
- # [01:42] <tantek> that's been fixed since
- # [01:42] <leaverou> tantek: yeah, I remember that
- # [01:42] <sylvaing> myth: w3schools has something to do with w3c.
- # [01:43] <leaverou> sylvaing: ohhhh good one!
- # [01:43] <sylvaing> myth: w3schools has something to do with anything at all
- # [01:43] <tantek> leaverou - thus don't act surprised about these myths, even W3C was pressured into propagating them (briefly)
- # [01:43] <hober> well, i was going to drop a link to the webm spec in here, but boy is it hard to find. weird.
- # [01:43] <tantek> before myself and several others publicly called bullshytt and got it changed
- # [01:43] <leaverou> tantek: yeah, I remember that turmoil
- # [01:44] <sylvaing> non-myth: as a rule, some drama erupts just in time for TPAC
- # [01:45] <sylvaing> such as said logos, as I recall
- # [01:45] <tantek> leaverou - here is a *huge* source of myths for you: http://html5test.com/ - that site claims all kinds of things as "HTML5" and tests them as such (scores them as such) when several of them are NOT part of / required by HTML5
- # [01:46] <sylvaing> hober, tabatkins: btw, check out http://jsfiddle.net/5H8wg/2/. I think Firefox is correct here. WebKit is being real weird.
- # [01:47] <leaverou> tantek: the problem is that for the more knowledgeable developers, those myths are common and well known. I was more aiming towards myths that are widespread even among more knowledgeable authors. Like the myth about CSS3 for example. Or the many misconceptions surrounding how W3C and the working groups work
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- # [01:48] <tantek> leaverou - not true. even "knowledgable developers" link to html5test.com without knowing/understanding that it errantly includes things as part of "HTML5"
- # [01:48] <tantek> e.g.
- # [01:49] <tantek> e.g. things that html5test.com wrongly includes as part of HTML5: support for specific codecs (with hard to read grey disclaimer text), microdata
- # [01:49] <tantek> and those are just the obvious ones
- # [01:49] <leaverou> tantek: the fact that they link to it, doesn't necessarily imply they consider these part of HTML5.
- # [01:50] <tantek> hint: if html5test.com listing of the feature DOES NOT link to w3.org/TR/html5/... then it's not part of HTML5
- # [01:50] <tantek> leaverou, the site is called *HTML5TEST*
- # [01:50] <tantek> not HTML5plusextrastest
- # [01:50] <tantek> nor mywebplatformtest
- # [01:50] <tantek> etc.
- # [01:50] <leaverou> tantek, I made a site called css3test.com a while ago, but even I don't think there is such a thing as CSS3
- # [01:51] <tantek> but there *are* CSS3 modules
- # [01:51] <sylvaing> a part that is maybe misunderstood but also largely unknown is around testing and the test suites
- # [01:51] <tantek> and in your links, you can link to w3.org/TR/css3-… links
- # [01:51] <leaverou> yeah, but there is no point in making a term for all level 3 modules
- # [01:51] <leaverou> it's misleading
- # [01:51] <leaverou> even more so now that many new modules start from level 1
- # [01:51] <tantek> the point is - there are plenty of "advanced" developers that get this wrong
- # [01:51] <tantek> about HTML5
- # [01:51] <sylvaing> i.e. the work done by WGs such as CSS to validate specs using test suites
- # [01:51] <tantek> so yes, it's valid for your article to point this out
- # [01:52] <tantek> and call out sites like html5test.com for adding to the confusion
- # [01:52] <leaverou> sylvaing: could you elaborate on that? It sounds interesting
- # [01:52] <leaverou> I mean, what myths surround it?
- # [01:52] <tantek> especially when browser vendors marketing departments use the "points" from HTML5test.com to "prove" their browser is more HTML5 than the other guys browser
- # [01:52] <sylvaing> it's not really a myth; more like the habit to use ACID3 and other equivalent tests as a proxy for conformance
- # [01:53] <sylvaing> right
- # [01:53] <sylvaing> when, often, w3c has far more in-depth test suites
- # [01:53] <sylvaing> though, unfortunately, running them can be a challenge
- # [01:53] <leaverou> very true :/
- # [01:54] <tantek> btw from what I remember reading / analyzing, caniuse.com is better about this
- # [01:54] <sylvaing> but i think few people understand w3c also produces tests for its specs; and how much work goes in there
- # [01:55] <leaverou> sylvaing: true. I've wrote it down, and I'll try to find a way to fit it into the myth - explanation format
- # [01:55] <leaverou> tantek: it is
- # [01:56] <leaverou> tantek: I guess I should have rephrased it as, those myths are very well documented in existing texts. I can't even count how many times I've read posts about how "X is not a part of HTML5"
- # [01:56] <leaverou> so, I'd prefer to discuss less popular myths
- # [01:56] <tantek> wow this is messed up - there's a wikipedia article on Google's Web Intents - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_Intents but CSS3 only gets a small section in the CSS article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSS#CSS3 and *none* of the CSS3 modules, even the ones that are Recommendations (e.g. Selectors, CSS3-Color) have their own Wikipedia articles.
- # [01:57] <sylvaing> well, i think the WHATWG/W3C versions of HTML5 is generally not well understood.
- # [01:57] <tantek> leaverou - as long as the errant sites exist without fixes, the myths are not well documented
- # [01:57] <leaverou> sylvaing: you're a treasure today! thank you so much!!
- # [01:57] <sylvaing> not so much a myth as a big source of confusion
- # [01:57] <tantek> sylvaing - what's to understand? WHATWG develops "HTML" (no version #), W3C develops "HTML5"
- # [01:57] <tantek> problem solved
- # [01:57] <tantek> :)
- # [01:57] <sylvaing> I rest my case :)
- # [01:58] <leaverou> hahaha
- # [01:58] <tantek> ergo, if it's not in w3.org/TR/html5 - then it's not in "HTML5"
- # [01:58] <sylvaing> myth: timbl speaks 100 words per minute. he's way faster than that
- # [01:59] <sylvaing> tantek, I think the number of folks who have kept up with the nuance is pretty limited. More importantly, what does it concretely mean for a web developer seems all over the map
- # [01:59] <tantek> myth: namespaces are needed (for anything in formats)
- # [02:00] <tantek> myth: Yahoo is a search engine (it's not, they shut their search engine down a while ago, and are now just a search *UI* on top of Bing's search engine)
- # [02:02] <sylvaing> there are also misunderstandings about 'w3c took 10+ years to finish CSS2.1'
- # [02:02] <sylvaing> strictly speaking, that's correct. but context would help i.e. when a browser vendor with 90+% market share disengages for several years, releasing a REC is not so meaningful
- # [02:02] <sylvaing> for instance
- # [02:02] <leaverou> sylvaing: maybe that's part of a greater misunderstanding about spec statuses
- # [02:03] <sylvaing> right. the larger point being that members have a big influence on speed or lack thereof
- # [02:04] <leaverou> sylvaing: there's a good one somewhere in that
- # [02:04] <leaverou> noted
- # [02:05] <sylvaing> maybe the role of spec editors is also misunderstood but maybe that's a sub-section of the whatwg/w3c differences
- # [02:06] <leaverou> sylvaing: misunderstood how?
- # [02:08] <sylvaing> they are responsible for writing the specs on behalf of the WG but they do not have direct authority/ownership of the work.
- # [02:08] <leaverou> sylvaing: oh right! good one!
- # [02:09] <fantasai> truth: fantasai can minute TimBL
- # [02:10] <leaverou> fantasai: NO WAY
- # [02:10] <fantasai> although this sometimes involves telling him to pause for the minutes ;)
- # [02:10] <sylvaing> I believe it
- # [02:10] <leaverou> :O
- # [02:11] <sylvaing> I measure how well I'm doing by how long it takes fantasai to take over the minuting :)
- # [02:12] * fantasai did this for the HTML-TAG joint meeting at a TPAC awhile ago. cwilso has a photo of me sitting on the floor so I could hear better. =)
- # [02:12] <sylvaing> I have a photo of you sitting on the floor on instagram. This is a pattern...
- # [02:12] <leaverou> fantasai: you're in TAG too?!
- # [02:14] <fantasai> leaverou: no, I was observing the HTMLWG
- # [02:14] <leaverou> ah ok
- # [02:15] * fantasai deliberately did not *join* the HTMLWG
- # [02:16] <leaverou> fantasai: why?
- # [02:16] <leaverou> if I may ask
- # [02:16] <leaverou> because of the chaos?
- # [02:16] <fantasai> Don't have the bandwidth to deal with public-html
- # [02:17] <leaverou> heh, yeah
- # [02:17] <fantasai> Also I felt comfortable enough assuming anne and hixie &co would do a good job and I didn't have to worry about it :)
- # [02:17] <fantasai> I have my hands full with CSS
- # [02:17] <fantasai> s/CSS/just CSS/
- # [02:21] <sylvaing> CSS is intense these days
- # [02:28] <tantek> sylvaing - it's a good problem to have :)
- # [02:29] <tantek> I mean, there's always the defunct XML stack ;)
- # [02:39] <Liam> NOTHING DEFUNCT ABOUT XML! :-)
- # [02:39] * Liam still working up to subscribing to www-style
- # [02:41] <sylvaing> tantek, yes it is. it wasn't a complaint!
- # [02:42] <tantek> Liam, I'd say draconian is quite defunct as far as the web is concerned.
- # [02:42] <dbaron> Liam, oh, come on, we didn't break any traffic records *last* month :-P
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- # [02:46] <Liam> tantek, well, draconian is a myth to begin with (as I wrote in 1998...)
- # [02:46] <Liam> Anne has done some helpful work there - see the xml error recovery community group
- # [02:46] <tantek> yes, I'm eager to see a draft of XML5
- # [02:46] <tantek> until then, I've effectively "stopped processing" anything other than POX.
- # [02:47] <tantek> in terms of XML that is.
- # [02:47] <Liam> (we're trying not to call it XML 5, but, XML Error Recovery, to stress that it's the same XML, parsed differently)
- # [02:47] <Liam> POX as opposed to rdf/xml or web services?
- # [02:48] <tantek> or namespaces
- # [02:48] <tantek> more on that (and draconian etc.) here: http://tantek.com/2010/302/b1/xhtml-dead-long-live-xml-valid-html5
- # [02:48] <Liam> well, I tried to simplify namespaces!
- # [02:48] <tantek> (see I actually *do* use XML, I just don't claim to serve it ;) )
- # [02:48] <Liam> I was really startled when I learned people at W3C management thought XML was supposed to be replacing HTML
- # [02:49] <Liam> it was never a goal, and was never even discussed during XML's development
- # [02:49] <Liam> (otherwise, the design would have been very different, for sure)
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- # [03:00] <leaverou> Liam: pretty much every text describing HTML5's history mentions this
- # [03:00] <leaverou> that the W3C stopped working on HTML because XHTML was going to replace it
- # [03:00] <leaverou> it's not true?
- # [03:01] <sylvaing> whoa that'd be a juicy myth to expose!
- # [03:01] <leaverou> sylvaing: indeed. IFF it's actually a myth
- # [03:04] <Liam> leaverou: I have no idea if it's true or not, I wasn't involved with XHTML
- # [03:04] <leaverou> ok
- # [03:04] <Liam> XML itself wasn't trying to replace HTML at all, though - we were trying to put SGML on the Web
- # [03:04] <leaverou> btw I was very sad the day XHTML2 died
- # [03:04] <leaverou> it had so many good ideas
- # [03:05] <leaverou> it's sad how many great ideas die in the name of backwards compatibility :(
- # [03:05] <Liam> I was too actually, and one reason was that I wanted to see CSS powerful enough to turn some other markup vocabulary into HTML, instead of special-casing all the element names
- # [03:05] <Liam> yes
- # [03:06] <sylvaing> the flip side of success and large installed bases is some amount of inertia
- # [03:06] <sylvaing> though the web is doing a darn good job dealing with it thus far
- # [03:06] <Liam> luckily, if XML isn't seen as trying to replace HTML, and isn't seen as trying to replace RPC (JSON is generally fine), people can start to understand where XML does make sense, and use it there.
- # [03:07] <leaverou> sylvaing: doing a good job in the expense of syntactic elegance
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- # [19:07] <Liam> hmm, how do I get edit-fo for the css wiki to ad myself to the f2f?
- # [19:07] <Ms2ger> Ask plinss or fantasai, I think
- # [19:07] <Liam> tx
- # [19:08] <plinss> liam: which account: 'liam' or 'liamquin'?
- # [19:09] <Liam> "liam" (OK to delete the other one, sorry about that)
- # [19:09] <plinss> np
- # [19:09] <plinss> liam: access granted
- # [19:09] <Liam> thanks you!
- # [19:10] <Liam> yes, now there are [edit] buttons
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- # [20:07] * Quits: jet (jet@159.63.23.38) (Quit: jet)
- # [20:08] * Joins: jet (jet@159.63.23.38)
- # [20:15] * Quits: stearns (anonymous@192.150.22.5) (Quit: stearns)
- # [20:15] * Joins: stearns (anonymous@192.150.22.5)
- # [20:31] * Joins: divya (Adium@192.150.10.201)
- # [20:34] * Quits: SimonSapin (simon@82.232.219.95) (Ping timeout)
- # [20:36] * Parts: divya (Adium@192.150.10.201)
- # [20:40] * Quits: drublic (drublic@95.115.1.68) (Client exited)
- # [21:07] * Joins: divya (Adium@192.150.10.201)
- # [21:14] * Joins: drublic (drublic@77.2.134.18)
- # [21:17] * Quits: divya (Adium@192.150.10.201) (Quit: Leaving.)
- # [21:25] * Joins: divya (Adium@192.150.10.201)
- # [21:32] * Parts: divya (Adium@192.150.10.201)
- # [21:49] * Quits: glenn (gadams@174.29.112.105) (Client exited)
- # [21:52] * Quits: danielfilho (danielfilh@187.31.77.7) (Connection reset by peer)
- # [22:17] * Quits: jet (jet@159.63.23.38) (Client exited)
- # [22:17] * Joins: jet (jet@159.63.23.38)
- # [23:00] * Joins: divya (Adium@192.150.10.201)
- # [23:01] * Parts: divya (Adium@192.150.10.201)
- # [23:07] * Quits: jet (jet@159.63.23.38) (Quit: jet)
- # [23:09] * Joins: jet (jet@159.63.23.38)
- # [23:16] * Quits: Ms2ger (Ms2ger@91.181.161.196) (Quit: nn)
- # [23:26] * Joins: divya (Adium@192.150.10.201)
- # [23:27] * Parts: divya (Adium@192.150.10.201)
- # Session Close: Fri Apr 06 00:00:01 2012
The end :)