/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2012-04-05 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Apr 05 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  10. # [01:31] * sylvaing_away is now known as sylvaing
  11. # [01:33] <leaverou> Hey, I'm writing an article for netmagazine.com listing common misconceptions about web standards (mostly W3C standards) and debunking them. What are the myths you guys see out there more often?
  12. # [01:33] <leaverou> So far I have the CSS3 one (no such thing), the myth that W3C creates standards from up high and the myth that you have to work for a member company to contribute.
  13. # [01:34] <leaverou> cc fantasai sylvaing
  14. # [01:34] <sylvaing> hello!
  15. # [01:34] <hober> leaverou: I imagine Hixie & tantek might have a few opinions on that question
  16. # [01:35] <leaverou> hi sylvaing :)
  17. # [01:35] <leaverou> thx hober
  18. # [01:35] <tantek> leaverou - there's a myth that articles work to document web knowledge which is accrued over time and updated incrementally, whereas a wiki page works much better for that purpose.
  19. # [01:36] <tantek> but if you're looking for specific historical myths, there are some easy ones like:
  20. # [01:37] <leaverou> tantek: true, but that's a bit out of scope. The article is mostly about the standardization process and its results
  21. # [01:37] <sylvaing> there is a myth that -webkit means future CSS ? :)
  22. # [01:37] <tantek> myth: "Google invented HTML5" (per their big push at Google I/O 2009 I think)
  23. # [01:37] <leaverou> sylvaing: really?!
  24. # [01:38] <sylvaing> i know, right?
  25. # [01:38] <tantek> myth: "Apple invented HTML5" (misinterpreted from Steve Jobs' blog post)
  26. # [01:38] <leaverou> that's insane
  27. # [01:38] <hober> reality: tantek invented HTML5
  28. # [01:38] <hober> :)
  29. # [01:38] <tantek> myth: "H264 is an open standard" (from same Steve Jobs post)
  30. # [01:38] <leaverou> tantek: thanks, those are the kind of thing I'm looking for! keep 'em coming! :)
  31. # [01:38] <tantek> myth: "CSS3 is part of HTML5"
  32. # [01:38] <sylvaing> yes, that's a good one
  33. # [01:39] <tantek> myth: "-webkit- properties are web standard"
  34. # [01:39] <hober> of course, this is also a myth: WebM is an open standard
  35. # [01:39] <tantek> (again per same Steve Jobs post)
  36. # [01:39] <leaverou> I have to admit I'm quite surprised that these are actually widespread beliefs out there. Are you sure they are?
  37. # [01:39] <tantek> hober, what about WebM is not "open" per your definition?
  38. # [01:39] <leaverou> hober: why isn't it open?!
  39. # [01:40] <sylvaing> oh man, hober. you were doing so well....
  40. # [01:40] <sylvaing> one full day of margin collapsing for you.
  41. # [01:40] <hober> sylvaing: hahhaa, noooooo
  42. # [01:40] <leaverou> hahahaha
  43. # [01:40] <tantek> sylvaing LOL
  44. # [01:40] <tantek> leaverou - yes
  45. # [01:40] <tantek> I had to fight a big blog battle about this not that long ago
  46. # [01:40] <tantek> are memories that short?
  47. # [01:41] * Quits: glenn (gadams@192.160.73.154) (Client exited)
  48. # [01:42] <tantek> leaverou here, start with the blog posts listed here: https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Atantek.com&q=w3c
  49. # [01:42] <tantek> e.g. http://tantek.com/2011/020/b1/new-w3c-html5-logo
  50. # [01:42] <tantek> originally even W3C made the error of marketing a grab-bug of technology as "HTML5"
  51. # [01:42] <tantek> e.g. "The [HTML5] logo is a general-purpose visual identity for a broad set of open web technologies, including HTML5, CSS, SVG, WOFF, and others. "
  52. # [01:42] <tantek> that's been fixed since
  53. # [01:42] <leaverou> tantek: yeah, I remember that
  54. # [01:42] <sylvaing> myth: w3schools has something to do with w3c.
  55. # [01:43] <leaverou> sylvaing: ohhhh good one!
  56. # [01:43] <sylvaing> myth: w3schools has something to do with anything at all
  57. # [01:43] <tantek> leaverou - thus don't act surprised about these myths, even W3C was pressured into propagating them (briefly)
  58. # [01:43] <hober> well, i was going to drop a link to the webm spec in here, but boy is it hard to find. weird.
  59. # [01:43] <tantek> before myself and several others publicly called bullshytt and got it changed
  60. # [01:43] <leaverou> tantek: yeah, I remember that turmoil
  61. # [01:44] <sylvaing> non-myth: as a rule, some drama erupts just in time for TPAC
  62. # [01:45] <sylvaing> such as said logos, as I recall
  63. # [01:45] <tantek> leaverou - here is a *huge* source of myths for you: http://html5test.com/ - that site claims all kinds of things as "HTML5" and tests them as such (scores them as such) when several of them are NOT part of / required by HTML5
  64. # [01:46] <sylvaing> hober, tabatkins: btw, check out http://jsfiddle.net/5H8wg/2/. I think Firefox is correct here. WebKit is being real weird.
  65. # [01:47] <leaverou> tantek: the problem is that for the more knowledgeable developers, those myths are common and well known. I was more aiming towards myths that are widespread even among more knowledgeable authors. Like the myth about CSS3 for example. Or the many misconceptions surrounding how W3C and the working groups work
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  67. # [01:48] <tantek> leaverou - not true. even "knowledgable developers" link to html5test.com without knowing/understanding that it errantly includes things as part of "HTML5"
  68. # [01:48] <tantek> e.g.
  69. # [01:49] <tantek> e.g. things that html5test.com wrongly includes as part of HTML5: support for specific codecs (with hard to read grey disclaimer text), microdata
  70. # [01:49] <tantek> and those are just the obvious ones
  71. # [01:49] <leaverou> tantek: the fact that they link to it, doesn't necessarily imply they consider these part of HTML5.
  72. # [01:50] <tantek> hint: if html5test.com listing of the feature DOES NOT link to w3.org/TR/html5/... then it's not part of HTML5
  73. # [01:50] <tantek> leaverou, the site is called *HTML5TEST*
  74. # [01:50] <tantek> not HTML5plusextrastest
  75. # [01:50] <tantek> nor mywebplatformtest
  76. # [01:50] <tantek> etc.
  77. # [01:50] <leaverou> tantek, I made a site called css3test.com a while ago, but even I don't think there is such a thing as CSS3
  78. # [01:51] <tantek> but there *are* CSS3 modules
  79. # [01:51] <sylvaing> a part that is maybe misunderstood but also largely unknown is around testing and the test suites
  80. # [01:51] <tantek> and in your links, you can link to w3.org/TR/css3-… links
  81. # [01:51] <leaverou> yeah, but there is no point in making a term for all level 3 modules
  82. # [01:51] <leaverou> it's misleading
  83. # [01:51] <leaverou> even more so now that many new modules start from level 1
  84. # [01:51] <tantek> the point is - there are plenty of "advanced" developers that get this wrong
  85. # [01:51] <tantek> about HTML5
  86. # [01:51] <sylvaing> i.e. the work done by WGs such as CSS to validate specs using test suites
  87. # [01:51] <tantek> so yes, it's valid for your article to point this out
  88. # [01:52] <tantek> and call out sites like html5test.com for adding to the confusion
  89. # [01:52] <leaverou> sylvaing: could you elaborate on that? It sounds interesting
  90. # [01:52] <leaverou> I mean, what myths surround it?
  91. # [01:52] <tantek> especially when browser vendors marketing departments use the "points" from HTML5test.com to "prove" their browser is more HTML5 than the other guys browser
  92. # [01:52] <sylvaing> it's not really a myth; more like the habit to use ACID3 and other equivalent tests as a proxy for conformance
  93. # [01:53] <sylvaing> right
  94. # [01:53] <sylvaing> when, often, w3c has far more in-depth test suites
  95. # [01:53] <sylvaing> though, unfortunately, running them can be a challenge
  96. # [01:53] <leaverou> very true :/
  97. # [01:54] <tantek> btw from what I remember reading / analyzing, caniuse.com is better about this
  98. # [01:54] <sylvaing> but i think few people understand w3c also produces tests for its specs; and how much work goes in there
  99. # [01:55] <leaverou> sylvaing: true. I've wrote it down, and I'll try to find a way to fit it into the myth - explanation format
  100. # [01:55] <leaverou> tantek: it is
  101. # [01:56] <leaverou> tantek: I guess I should have rephrased it as, those myths are very well documented in existing texts. I can't even count how many times I've read posts about how "X is not a part of HTML5"
  102. # [01:56] <leaverou> so, I'd prefer to discuss less popular myths
  103. # [01:56] <tantek> wow this is messed up - there's a wikipedia article on Google's Web Intents - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_Intents but CSS3 only gets a small section in the CSS article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSS#CSS3 and *none* of the CSS3 modules, even the ones that are Recommendations (e.g. Selectors, CSS3-Color) have their own Wikipedia articles.
  104. # [01:57] <sylvaing> well, i think the WHATWG/W3C versions of HTML5 is generally not well understood.
  105. # [01:57] <tantek> leaverou - as long as the errant sites exist without fixes, the myths are not well documented
  106. # [01:57] <leaverou> sylvaing: you're a treasure today! thank you so much!!
  107. # [01:57] <sylvaing> not so much a myth as a big source of confusion
  108. # [01:57] <tantek> sylvaing - what's to understand? WHATWG develops "HTML" (no version #), W3C develops "HTML5"
  109. # [01:57] <tantek> problem solved
  110. # [01:57] <tantek> :)
  111. # [01:57] <sylvaing> I rest my case :)
  112. # [01:58] <leaverou> hahaha
  113. # [01:58] <tantek> ergo, if it's not in w3.org/TR/html5 - then it's not in "HTML5"
  114. # [01:58] <sylvaing> myth: timbl speaks 100 words per minute. he's way faster than that
  115. # [01:59] <sylvaing> tantek, I think the number of folks who have kept up with the nuance is pretty limited. More importantly, what does it concretely mean for a web developer seems all over the map
  116. # [01:59] <tantek> myth: namespaces are needed (for anything in formats)
  117. # [02:00] <tantek> myth: Yahoo is a search engine (it's not, they shut their search engine down a while ago, and are now just a search *UI* on top of Bing's search engine)
  118. # [02:02] <sylvaing> there are also misunderstandings about 'w3c took 10+ years to finish CSS2.1'
  119. # [02:02] <sylvaing> strictly speaking, that's correct. but context would help i.e. when a browser vendor with 90+% market share disengages for several years, releasing a REC is not so meaningful
  120. # [02:02] <sylvaing> for instance
  121. # [02:02] <leaverou> sylvaing: maybe that's part of a greater misunderstanding about spec statuses
  122. # [02:03] <sylvaing> right. the larger point being that members have a big influence on speed or lack thereof
  123. # [02:04] <leaverou> sylvaing: there's a good one somewhere in that
  124. # [02:04] <leaverou> noted
  125. # [02:05] <sylvaing> maybe the role of spec editors is also misunderstood but maybe that's a sub-section of the whatwg/w3c differences
  126. # [02:06] <leaverou> sylvaing: misunderstood how?
  127. # [02:08] <sylvaing> they are responsible for writing the specs on behalf of the WG but they do not have direct authority/ownership of the work.
  128. # [02:08] <leaverou> sylvaing: oh right! good one!
  129. # [02:09] <fantasai> truth: fantasai can minute TimBL
  130. # [02:10] <leaverou> fantasai: NO WAY
  131. # [02:10] <fantasai> although this sometimes involves telling him to pause for the minutes ;)
  132. # [02:10] <sylvaing> I believe it
  133. # [02:10] <leaverou> :O
  134. # [02:11] <sylvaing> I measure how well I'm doing by how long it takes fantasai to take over the minuting :)
  135. # [02:12] * fantasai did this for the HTML-TAG joint meeting at a TPAC awhile ago. cwilso has a photo of me sitting on the floor so I could hear better. =)
  136. # [02:12] <sylvaing> I have a photo of you sitting on the floor on instagram. This is a pattern...
  137. # [02:12] <leaverou> fantasai: you're in TAG too?!
  138. # [02:14] <fantasai> leaverou: no, I was observing the HTMLWG
  139. # [02:14] <leaverou> ah ok
  140. # [02:15] * fantasai deliberately did not *join* the HTMLWG
  141. # [02:16] <leaverou> fantasai: why?
  142. # [02:16] <leaverou> if I may ask
  143. # [02:16] <leaverou> because of the chaos?
  144. # [02:16] <fantasai> Don't have the bandwidth to deal with public-html
  145. # [02:17] <leaverou> heh, yeah
  146. # [02:17] <fantasai> Also I felt comfortable enough assuming anne and hixie &co would do a good job and I didn't have to worry about it :)
  147. # [02:17] <fantasai> I have my hands full with CSS
  148. # [02:17] <fantasai> s/CSS/just CSS/
  149. # [02:21] <sylvaing> CSS is intense these days
  150. # [02:28] <tantek> sylvaing - it's a good problem to have :)
  151. # [02:29] <tantek> I mean, there's always the defunct XML stack ;)
  152. # [02:39] <Liam> NOTHING DEFUNCT ABOUT XML! :-)
  153. # [02:39] * Liam still working up to subscribing to www-style
  154. # [02:41] <sylvaing> tantek, yes it is. it wasn't a complaint!
  155. # [02:42] <tantek> Liam, I'd say draconian is quite defunct as far as the web is concerned.
  156. # [02:42] <dbaron> Liam, oh, come on, we didn't break any traffic records *last* month :-P
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  158. # [02:46] <Liam> tantek, well, draconian is a myth to begin with (as I wrote in 1998...)
  159. # [02:46] <Liam> Anne has done some helpful work there - see the xml error recovery community group
  160. # [02:46] <tantek> yes, I'm eager to see a draft of XML5
  161. # [02:46] <tantek> until then, I've effectively "stopped processing" anything other than POX.
  162. # [02:47] <tantek> in terms of XML that is.
  163. # [02:47] <Liam> (we're trying not to call it XML 5, but, XML Error Recovery, to stress that it's the same XML, parsed differently)
  164. # [02:47] <Liam> POX as opposed to rdf/xml or web services?
  165. # [02:48] <tantek> or namespaces
  166. # [02:48] <tantek> more on that (and draconian etc.) here: http://tantek.com/2010/302/b1/xhtml-dead-long-live-xml-valid-html5
  167. # [02:48] <Liam> well, I tried to simplify namespaces!
  168. # [02:48] <tantek> (see I actually *do* use XML, I just don't claim to serve it ;) )
  169. # [02:48] <Liam> I was really startled when I learned people at W3C management thought XML was supposed to be replacing HTML
  170. # [02:49] <Liam> it was never a goal, and was never even discussed during XML's development
  171. # [02:49] <Liam> (otherwise, the design would have been very different, for sure)
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  173. # [03:00] <leaverou> Liam: pretty much every text describing HTML5's history mentions this
  174. # [03:00] <leaverou> that the W3C stopped working on HTML because XHTML was going to replace it
  175. # [03:00] <leaverou> it's not true?
  176. # [03:01] <sylvaing> whoa that'd be a juicy myth to expose!
  177. # [03:01] <leaverou> sylvaing: indeed. IFF it's actually a myth
  178. # [03:04] <Liam> leaverou: I have no idea if it's true or not, I wasn't involved with XHTML
  179. # [03:04] <leaverou> ok
  180. # [03:04] <Liam> XML itself wasn't trying to replace HTML at all, though - we were trying to put SGML on the Web
  181. # [03:04] <leaverou> btw I was very sad the day XHTML2 died
  182. # [03:04] <leaverou> it had so many good ideas
  183. # [03:05] <leaverou> it's sad how many great ideas die in the name of backwards compatibility :(
  184. # [03:05] <Liam> I was too actually, and one reason was that I wanted to see CSS powerful enough to turn some other markup vocabulary into HTML, instead of special-casing all the element names
  185. # [03:05] <Liam> yes
  186. # [03:06] <sylvaing> the flip side of success and large installed bases is some amount of inertia
  187. # [03:06] <sylvaing> though the web is doing a darn good job dealing with it thus far
  188. # [03:06] <Liam> luckily, if XML isn't seen as trying to replace HTML, and isn't seen as trying to replace RPC (JSON is generally fine), people can start to understand where XML does make sense, and use it there.
  189. # [03:07] <leaverou> sylvaing: doing a good job in the expense of syntactic elegance
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  260. # [19:07] <Liam> hmm, how do I get edit-fo for the css wiki to ad myself to the f2f?
  261. # [19:07] <Ms2ger> Ask plinss or fantasai, I think
  262. # [19:07] <Liam> tx
  263. # [19:08] <plinss> liam: which account: 'liam' or 'liamquin'?
  264. # [19:09] <Liam> "liam" (OK to delete the other one, sorry about that)
  265. # [19:09] <plinss> np
  266. # [19:09] <plinss> liam: access granted
  267. # [19:09] <Liam> thanks you!
  268. # [19:10] <Liam> yes, now there are [edit] buttons
  269. # [19:13] * Quits: arno (arno@192.150.10.200) (Quit: Leaving.)
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  277. # [20:36] * Parts: divya (Adium@192.150.10.201)
  278. # [20:40] * Quits: drublic (drublic@95.115.1.68) (Client exited)
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  283. # [21:32] * Parts: divya (Adium@192.150.10.201)
  284. # [21:49] * Quits: glenn (gadams@174.29.112.105) (Client exited)
  285. # [21:52] * Quits: danielfilho (danielfilh@187.31.77.7) (Connection reset by peer)
  286. # [22:17] * Quits: jet (jet@159.63.23.38) (Client exited)
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  289. # [23:01] * Parts: divya (Adium@192.150.10.201)
  290. # [23:07] * Quits: jet (jet@159.63.23.38) (Quit: jet)
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  292. # [23:16] * Quits: Ms2ger (Ms2ger@91.181.161.196) (Quit: nn)
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  294. # [23:27] * Parts: divya (Adium@192.150.10.201)
  295. # Session Close: Fri Apr 06 00:00:01 2012

The end :)