/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2012-04-11 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Apr 11 00:00:02 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  43. # [17:32] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/04/11-css-irc
  44. # [17:32] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
  45. # [17:32] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 36 minutes
  46. # [17:32] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
  47. # [17:32] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
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  53. # [17:54] <TabAtkins> fantasai: V&U's not in LC yet, right? Latest draft I see on /TR is a WD.
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  56. # [17:58] <fantasai> TabAtkins: http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-values/#status
  57. # [17:59] <TabAtkins> Hurp durp, of course.]
  58. # [17:59] <TabAtkins> All right, so I need to file Kenny's issues.
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  61. # [18:03] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
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  63. # [18:03] <Zakim> + +1.206.324.aaaa
  64. # [18:03] <sylvaing> Zakim, aaaa is sylvaing
  65. # [18:03] <Zakim> +sylvaing; got it
  66. # [18:03] <Zakim> +??P27
  67. # [18:03] <glazou> Zakim, ??P27 is me
  68. # [18:03] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
  69. # [18:04] <Zakim> +plinss
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  72. # [18:04] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  73. # [18:04] * Joins: glenn (gadams@174.29.126.179)
  74. # [18:05] <glazou> FWIW, we have the transition conf call for both Backgrounds and Images later today
  75. # [18:05] <sylvaing> and image values?
  76. # [18:05] <TabAtkins> Yup. When is it?
  77. # [18:05] <sylvaing> never mind
  78. # [18:06] <glazou> CSS Image Values and Replaced Content Module Level 3
  79. # [18:06] <Zakim> +??P33
  80. # [18:06] <glazou> 6pm UTC
  81. # [18:06] <glenn> zakim, ??p33 is glenn
  82. # [18:06] <Zakim> +glenn; got it
  83. # [18:06] <glazou> so 8pm here
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  88. # [18:08] <plinss> zakim, aabb is hober
  89. # [18:08] <Zakim> +hober; got it
  90. # [18:08] <Zakim> + +1.650.766.aacc
  91. # [18:08] <Zakim> +SteveZ
  92. # [18:08] <bradk> Zakim, aacc is me
  93. # [18:08] <Zakim> +bradk; got it
  94. # [18:08] <Zakim> + +1.650.253.aadd
  95. # [18:08] <TabAtkins> Zakim, aadd is me
  96. # [18:08] <Zakim> +TabAtkins; got it
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  98. # [18:09] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
  99. # [18:09] <arronei> zakim, microsoft has me
  100. # [18:09] <Zakim> +arronei; got it
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  104. # [18:09] <stearns> zakim, aaee is me
  105. # [18:09] <Zakim> +stearns; got it
  106. # [18:09] <Zakim> +Molly_Holzschlag
  107. # [18:09] * TabAtkins glazou, so two hours from now?
  108. # [18:09] <glazou> yes
  109. # [18:09] <TabAtkins> kk
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  112. # [18:10] <glazou> duration up to 90mins
  113. # [18:10] <Zakim> + +93550aaff
  114. # [18:10] <glazou> peter and I plan to attend
  115. # [18:10] <antonp> Zakim, aaff is me
  116. # [18:10] <Zakim> +antonp; got it
  117. # [18:10] <Zakim> + +1.415.832.aagg
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  119. # [18:10] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.aa]
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  121. # [18:11] <Zakim> +fantasai
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  123. # [18:11] <JohnJansen> Zakim, microsoft has JohnJansen
  124. # [18:11] <Zakim> +JohnJansen; got it
  125. # [18:11] <Zakim> +??P53
  126. # [18:11] <krit> zakim, who's here?
  127. # [18:11] <Zakim> On the phone I see sylvaing, glazou, plinss, [Microsoft], glenn, hober, bradk, SteveZ, TabAtkins, [Microsoft.a], stearns, Molly_Holzschlag, antonp, +1.415.832.aagg, [Microsoft.aa],
  128. # [18:11] <Zakim> ... fantasai, ??P53
  129. # [18:11] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has JohnJansen
  130. # [18:11] <Zakim> On IRC I see JohnJansen, nimbu, krit, logbot, PhilCupp, antonp, SteveZ, arronei, bradk, glenn, dbaron, kennyluck, miketaylr, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, mollydotcom, tantek, kojiishi,
  131. # [18:11] <Zakim> ... ksweeney, myakura, gsnedders, drublic, SimonSapin, leaverou, danielfilho, Liam, krijnh, ed, Echoes, stearns, paul___irish, CSSWG_LogBot, vhardy, sylvaing, plinss, alexmog,
  132. # [18:11] <Zakim> ... shans, macpherson, isherman, shepazu, pjrm, Hixie, hober, fantasai, Bert, TabAtkins, trackbot
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  135. # [18:12] <krit> Zakim, aagg is vhardy
  136. # [18:12] <Zakim> +Bert
  137. # [18:12] <Zakim> +vhardy; got it
  138. # [18:12] <glazou> plinss is chairing today
  139. # [18:13] <krit> Zakim, vhardy is vhardy_
  140. # [18:13] <Zakim> +vhardy_; got it
  141. # [18:13] <TabAtkins> ScribeNick: TabAtkins
  142. # [18:14] <TabAtkins> plinss: Last minute items?
  143. # [18:14] <TabAtkins> glazou: Maybe the email about webkit-mask and reflections.
  144. # [18:14] <TabAtkins> glazou: I just read that Ted will submit a proposal to the WG.
  145. # [18:14] <TabAtkins> glazou: But maybe we need to discuss what to do about that.
  146. # [18:14] <TabAtkins> fantasai: I think we did discuss that at some point.
  147. # [18:14] <TabAtkins> vhardy_: I'd like this to be in the FXTF charter, as this is related to SVG as well.
  148. # [18:14] <Zakim> +??P4
  149. # [18:15] <kojiishi> zakim, ??p4 is me
  150. # [18:15] <Zakim> +kojiishi; got it
  151. # [18:15] <fantasai> IIRC, we concluded that reflections should be done with filters or some other generic mechanism
  152. # [18:15] <TabAtkins> plinss: Where will it live and how much priority?
  153. # [18:15] <TabAtkins> glazou: we don't need to discuss it right now.
  154. # [18:15] <TabAtkins> plinss: Start with margin-collapsing, then.
  155. # [18:15] <Zakim> + +1.415.766.aahh
  156. # [18:15] <TabAtkins> plinss: Any remaining issues?
  157. # [18:15] <TabAtkins> antonp: One and a half, yes.
  158. # [18:15] * dbaron Zakim, aahh is dbaron
  159. # [18:15] * Zakim +dbaron; got it
  160. # [18:15] * Joins: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.169)
  161. # [18:16] <TabAtkins> antonp: The one we got halfway through last week...
  162. # [18:16] <TabAtkins> antonp: Is the bug I'm about to paste.
  163. # [18:16] <antonp> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16049
  164. # [18:16] <TabAtkins> antonp: This concerned a note in chapter 10 about min-height and max-height.
  165. # [18:16] <TabAtkins> antonp: It was a confusing note; arron and I came up witha simpler note.
  166. # [18:16] <TabAtkins> antonp: We just removed most of the ntoe completely.
  167. # [18:16] <Zakim> +ChrisL
  168. # [18:17] <glazou> Zakim, mute ChrisL
  169. # [18:17] <Zakim> ChrisL should now be muted
  170. # [18:17] * Joins: smfr (smfr@17.212.152.232)
  171. # [18:17] <TabAtkins> antonp: But fantasai wanted to keep some mention of margin-collapsing in that note.
  172. # [18:17] * ChrisL will redial
  173. # [18:17] <TabAtkins> antonp: So she proposed some wording.
  174. # [18:17] <Zakim> -ChrisL
  175. # [18:17] <glazou> ChrisL: sorry, your phone was clicking a lot
  176. # [18:17] * sylvaing this is what margin collapsing sounds like
  177. # [18:17] <glazou> LOL
  178. # [18:17] <Zakim> + +1.408.636.aaii
  179. # [18:17] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Apr/0101.html
  180. # [18:17] <TabAtkins> antonp: So rather than take her exact wording, I thought we could resolve to somethign similar.
  181. # [18:17] <smfr> Zakim, aaii is me
  182. # [18:17] <Zakim> +smfr; got it
  183. # [18:18] <Zakim> +ChrisL
  184. # [18:18] <antonp> last week fantasai proposed: "for example, margin collapsing is not affected because based on computed values and not used values"
  185. # [18:18] * ChrisL ok now?
  186. # [18:18] <glazou> ChrisL: much better
  187. # [18:18] <tantek> scribe: I am attending via IRC only today.
  188. # [18:18] <TabAtkins> antonp: The proposal can be found in that bug report.
  189. # [18:18] <TabAtkins> antonp: Scroll down to the very end of the comments to see the proposal from last week.
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  194. # [18:19] <TabAtkins> antonp: I'm fine with adding an extra line along the lines of what fantasai proposed, but I'm not entirely happy about her exact wording.
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  197. # [18:19] <TabAtkins> antonp: I agree that a note about margin-collapsing here could be useful
  198. # [18:19] <TabAtkins> antonp: But if it's needed, it's because the calculation for min/max height need a temporary value of what the computed height is.
  199. # [18:20] <TabAtkins> antonp: And the idea of the note is that you're *nto* supposed to re-think about margin-collapsing when doing the real height.
  200. # [18:20] <fantasai> suggest s/affected/recalculated/
  201. # [18:20] * Quits: isherman (Adium@216.239.45.4) (Quit: Leaving.)
  202. # [18:20] <TabAtkins> antonp: So I'd prefer what I said in note 3.
  203. # [18:20] <Zakim> +??P19
  204. # [18:20] <TabAtkins> antonp: So the full proposal is to take the sentence in comment 2 and the sentence in comment 3 and put them together.
  205. # [18:20] <TabAtkins> antonp: last week we agreed on the comment 2 sentence, but there was some confusion about the comment 3 sentence.
  206. # [18:21] <dstorey> zakim, ??P19 is me
  207. # [18:21] <Zakim> +dstorey; got it
  208. # [18:21] * fantasai defers to dbaron :)
  209. # [18:21] <dbaron> fine with me
  210. # [18:21] <TabAtkins> plinss: I hear no objections.
  211. # [18:22] <TabAtkins> RESOLVED: Accept Anton's edit merging the sentences in comment 2 and 3 in the bug report about margin-collapsing.
  212. # [18:22] * Joins: Katie (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  213. # [18:22] <antonp> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16037
  214. # [18:22] <TabAtkins> antonp: In this case, we've got an auto-height parent with a large min-height.
  215. # [18:22] <TabAtkins> antonp: And it contains a last-child.
  216. # [18:23] <TabAtkins> antonp: Should there be collapsing between the margin of the last-child and the margin of the parent?
  217. # [18:23] <TabAtkins> antonp: We discussed this in Paris and drew some diagrams.
  218. # [18:23] <TabAtkins> antonp: And we more-or-less agreed that we should do collapsing, even though it seems a bit strange in this case.
  219. # [18:23] <TabAtkins> antonp: It turns out this bug has a relationship to bug 16036 which we discussed last week.
  220. # [18:24] <TabAtkins> antonp: In the comments there's some mention of this, and how it influences the wording we need to use to fix 16037.
  221. # [18:24] <TabAtkins> antonp: The proposal is in comment 5 of the bug report.
  222. # [18:24] <TabAtkins> antonp: This makes things a bit clearer.
  223. # [18:24] <TabAtkins> antonp: It splits the conditions into a list, rather than a long complicated sentence.
  224. # [18:24] <TabAtkins> antonp: In the previous spec it was a complex sentence, but the addition we're making renders it much harder to read.
  225. # [18:25] <TabAtkins> antonp: So hopefully we're achieve the desired effect, which is to say that margin-collapsing does occur between the last child and the bottom margin of the parent in this case.
  226. # [18:25] <TabAtkins> antonp: This is currently part of a giant note.
  227. # [18:25] <TabAtkins> antonp: It was previous normative, but it was recently changed to a note so it could be changed to more readable and comprehensive normative text later.
  228. # [18:26] <TabAtkins> dbaron: So the change is that you're removing the mention of min-height at the beginning of the sentence, and adding a metnion of it in the third bullet?
  229. # [18:26] <TabAtkins> antonp: Yes.
  230. # [18:26] <TabAtkins> antonp: I don't think the current spec is quite wrong, I think it's just overly specific.
  231. # [18:26] * Joins: Ms2ger (Ms2ger@91.181.245.66)
  232. # [18:26] <TabAtkins> antonp: And because of that, it gives you the impression that you wouldn't collapse in another condition.
  233. # [18:26] <TabAtkins> antonp: And w'ere saying there can be collapsing in another condition as well.
  234. # [18:27] <TabAtkins> antonp: Giving very specific conditions can be misleading if there's a more general rule in actuality.
  235. # [18:27] * mollydotcom thinks "Widens the Net" is a terrible pun :P
  236. # [18:27] <TabAtkins> dbaron: Sounds okay to me, though I haven't worked through it in full detail.
  237. # [18:28] <Zakim> +??P5
  238. # [18:28] <Katie> Zakim, who's on the call?
  239. # [18:28] <Zakim> On the phone I see sylvaing, glazou, plinss, [Microsoft], glenn, hober, bradk, SteveZ, TabAtkins, [Microsoft.a], stearns, Molly_Holzschlag, antonp, vhardy_, [Microsoft.aa],
  240. # [18:28] <TabAtkins> plinss: Can this change behavior in some cases? Do e have testcases?
  241. # [18:28] <Zakim> ... fantasai, ??P53, Bert, kojiishi, dbaron, smfr, ChrisL, [Microsoft.aaa], dstorey, ??P5
  242. # [18:28] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has JohnJansen
  243. # [18:28] <TabAtkins> antonp: I'm not aware of any specific testcases for this.
  244. # [18:28] <Katie> [Microsoft.aa] has Katie
  245. # [18:28] <TabAtkins> antonp: There are testcases around this, but as soon as you get into complex sets of conditions for margin-collapsing, there usually arent' testcases.
  246. # [18:28] <TabAtkins> antonp: I'm all in favor of adding testcases.
  247. # [18:29] <TabAtkins> plinss: I'd like to see testcases for this.
  248. # [18:29] <TabAtkins> antonp: Does that mean you'd like to see a testcase before resolving?
  249. # [18:29] <Katie> zakim, [Microsoft.aa] is katie
  250. # [18:29] <Zakim> +katie; got it
  251. # [18:29] <TabAtkins> plinss: I think so, unless someone really wants to resolve now?
  252. # [18:30] <TabAtkins> mollydotcom: I think that personally if the language is clear, it's fine.
  253. # [18:30] <TabAtkins> mollydotcom: It seems that in what Anton described, that's the behavior that people actually want.
  254. # [18:30] <smfr> TabAtkins++
  255. # [18:31] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: I disagree - margin-collapsing is ridiculously complicated, so we need testcases anyway.
  256. # [18:32] <TabAtkins> mollydotcom: I just mean that if the language is clear, it's not required that a testcase appears before we accept the note.
  257. # [18:32] <TabAtkins> RESOLVED: Accept Anton's edit about margin-collapsing of a min-height parent and last-child.
  258. # [18:32] <TabAtkins> antonp: The other issue in the agenda doesn't seem to have priority. I can postpone.
  259. # [18:32] <TabAtkins> plinss: Sounds good.
  260. # [18:33] <TabAtkins> plinss: Next topic - combining justification and white-space:pre.
  261. # [18:33] <dbaron> ScribeNick: dbaron
  262. # [18:33] * mollydotcom corrects - not the "behavior that people actually want" but the behavior people *expect*
  263. # [18:34] <dbaron> Topic: Combining justification and white-space: pre
  264. # [18:34] <dbaron> fantasai: I think this is already resolved because of a decision we made about 2.1 -- should already be in the spec.
  265. # [18:34] <dbaron> TabAtkins: Was it put in the spec more than a month ago?
  266. # [18:34] <dbaron> fantasai: Says in the section on 'text-align': ... reads from spec...
  267. # [18:35] <dbaron> TabAtkins: This does work once that is changed from collapsible to non-collapsible, which means this is fine.
  268. # [18:35] * dbaron hopes fantasai pastes the spec link/text in
  269. # [18:35] <dbaron> Topic: breaking replaced elements
  270. # [18:35] <dbaron> ScribeNick: TabAtkins
  271. # [18:35] * sylvaing sometimes wishes !important was !youre-doing-it-wrong
  272. # [18:35] <TabAtkins> fantasai: I haven't triaged any css3-break issues yet, and rossen's not on the call, so we shoudl defer this issue until the two of us have had a chance to look at it.
  273. # [18:36] * Ms2ger sylvaing: and what about !legal? :)
  274. # [18:36] <TabAtkins> plinss: Vincent, are you okay with deferring?
  275. # [18:36] <TabAtkins> vhardy_: Yep.
  276. # [18:36] <smfr> url?
  277. # [18:36] <plinss> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Mar/0445.html
  278. # [18:36] <dbaron> Topic: Interaction of animation-fill-mode with running/completed animations
  279. # [18:37] <TabAtkins> plinss: Next, interaction of animation-fill-mode with running/completed animations.
  280. # [18:37] <TabAtkins> sylvaing: What happens if the animation-fill-mode is updated after an animation is started or after it's completed?
  281. # [18:37] <TabAtkins> sylvaing: There's some language about snapshotting the values when an animation starts.
  282. # [18:37] <TabAtkins> dbaron: I don't like the whole wording about capturing values.
  283. # [18:37] <TabAtkins> sylvaing: So what do we do then?
  284. # [18:37] <TabAtkins> dbaron: I think this should have an effect either way.
  285. # [18:38] <TabAtkins> dbaron: You have an animation, it starts at some time, and you can compute ...
  286. # [18:38] <TabAtkins> dbaron: The things that have an effect at the time the animation starts are duration, delay, and name.
  287. # [18:38] <TabAtkins> sylvaing: So those you'd treat as if they're snapshotted.
  288. # [18:38] <TabAtkins> sylvaing: So if you ahve a 2s delay, and after 1.5s you update it to a 3s delay, what do you do?
  289. # [18:38] <TabAtkins> dbaron: I think I wrote something about this a year ago, trying to remember.
  290. # [18:38] <Zakim> -ChrisL
  291. # [18:39] <TabAtkins> sylvaing: The snapshotting is simpler from implementation.
  292. # [18:39] <TabAtkins> sylvaing: But if we dont' do it, we still need something clear and predictable.
  293. # [18:39] <TabAtkins> dbaron: My memory of what webkit does is that they snapshot some things, but not as much as the spec says.
  294. # [18:39] <TabAtkins> dbaron: My general issue is that anytime you snapshot, you're exposing more details about when changes occur.
  295. # [18:39] <Zakim> +ChrisL
  296. # [18:40] <TabAtkins> dbaron: So if you set an animation and then change a property about animations, whether it affects the animatino or not depends on how you batch style changes.
  297. # [18:40] <TabAtkins> sylvaing: So what do we do instead?
  298. # [18:40] <TabAtkins> dbaron: I think what I proposed was that you compute a start time for the animation based on when animation-name changes.
  299. # [18:41] <TabAtkins> dbaron: If someone sets play-state to 'paused', while it's paused it moves that time forward.
  300. # [18:41] <TabAtkins> dbaron: But otherwise the only thing you snapshot is that start time.
  301. # [18:41] <TabAtkins> smfr: So you're suggesting that authors can change iteration-count or direction whiel it's running?
  302. # [18:41] <TabAtkins> dbaron: Yes.
  303. # [18:42] <TabAtkins> smfr: If you're halfway through a reverse iteration and you suddenly change animatino-direction, it'll jump.
  304. # [18:43] <TabAtkins> sylvaing: So how does this stop detecting style batching? You're still in control of when you apply animatino-name.
  305. # [18:43] <TabAtkins> smfr: Were you suggesting that duration is snapshotted as well?
  306. # [18:43] <TabAtkins> dbaron: I dont' thinks o.
  307. # [18:43] <Zakim> +SteveZ.a
  308. # [18:44] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  309. # [18:44] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: I think the implication there is that if you're 2s into an animation, and you change duration to 1s, it would automatically end and fire an animationend event.
  310. # [18:44] <TabAtkins> dbaron: Maybe something like that.
  311. # [18:44] <TabAtkins> sylvaing: I think the snapshotting has its downsides, but it's simple and predictable.
  312. # [18:45] <TabAtkins> dbaron: That's not what webkit did - it didn't match the snapshotting.
  313. # [18:45] <TabAtkins> sylvaing: Sure, but we coudl consider that to be a bug.
  314. # [18:45] <TabAtkins> sylvaing: Is this better for authors?
  315. # [18:45] <TabAtkins> smfr: We've had feedback that people want to change animation-duration after the animation ahs started.
  316. # [18:46] <TabAtkins> vhardy_: I also think it's better to have a live model than a snapshot - this is the SMIL model too.
  317. # [18:47] * Bert zakim, who is making noise?
  318. # [18:47] * Zakim Bert, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: sylvaing (44%), glazou (14%), fantasai (12%)
  319. # [18:47] <TabAtkins> [discussion about needing testcases]
  320. # [18:48] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: Testing seems to be a red herring - we'll need it anyway. We need to decide between snapshot everything, snapshot some, or snapshot minimum.
  321. # [18:48] <TabAtkins> sylvaing: Current impls dont' quite snapshot everything.
  322. # [18:48] <TabAtkins> smfr: Delay is interesting if you push it forward past the current time.
  323. # [18:49] <TabAtkins> dbaron: I think Gecko snapshots delay.
  324. # [18:49] <TabAtkins> dbaron: We compute a start time, and that involves delay.
  325. # [18:50] <TabAtkins> plinss: To me, it makes sense to let delay change if the animation hasn't started yet, and disallow it if it hasn't.
  326. # [18:50] <TabAtkins> dbaron: And if you set the delay back before the current amount of time delayed, start then or start as if it was delayed there the entire time?
  327. # [18:50] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: I think the latter.
  328. # [18:50] <TabAtkins> plinss: So question is snapshot some, or snapshot minimum?
  329. # [18:50] <TabAtkins> sylvaing: Seems that snapshotting less seems reasonable.
  330. # [18:51] <TabAtkins> vhardy_: SMIL's lack of snapshotting is convenient and solves some problems.
  331. # [18:51] <TabAtkins> plinss: Seems reasonable.
  332. # [18:51] <TabAtkins> sylvaing: I think we're agreed not to keep the snapshotting. Maybe some more discussion about precise details.
  333. # [18:52] <TabAtkins> RESOLVED: Change the animation model to snapshot much less properties. Details of exactly what snapshotting is left TBD.
  334. # [18:52] <plinss> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Mar/0418.html
  335. # [18:52] <TabAtkins> Topic: mismatched grid-template strings
  336. # [18:53] <TabAtkins> PhilCupp: I can speak to this.
  337. # [18:53] <TabAtkins> PhilCupp: What happens when strings are shorter than other?
  338. # [18:53] <TabAtkins> PhilCupp: We could consider extending the last character until they're equal length.
  339. # [18:53] <TabAtkins> PhilCupp: But that can create non-rectangular grid cells.
  340. # [18:54] <TabAtkins> PhilCupp: So I suggest we just pad it with empty cells.
  341. # [18:54] <TabAtkins> PhilCupp: I think Bert just responded with the same suggestion.
  342. # [18:54] <TabAtkins> PhilCupp: The second discussion was about non-rectangular regions.
  343. # [18:54] <TabAtkins> PhilCupp: I think there was agreement that it would be useful, but we don't want to add it to the current level of the spec.
  344. # [18:55] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: I agree with both of these.
  345. # [18:55] <TabAtkins> antonp: For shorter strings, I'd prefer them to be invalid.
  346. # [18:56] <TabAtkins> PhilCupp: We could do that too.
  347. # [18:56] * Quits: SteveZ (chatzilla@24.6.120.172) (Ping timeout)
  348. # [18:56] <TabAtkins> antonp: I think it's good to encourage typing out the periods when you want empty cells, to make it more readable.
  349. # [18:57] <vhardy_> vhardy: agree with antonp
  350. # [18:57] <TabAtkins> plinss: Then we could in the future decide to make mismatched string lengths pad out the last cell, even if it's a non-rectangular region.
  351. # [18:57] <TabAtkins> PhilCupp: I'm okay with that.
  352. # [18:58] <TabAtkins> RESOLVED: Treat both mismatched string lengths and non-rectangular regions as illegal syntax in Grid.
  353. # [18:58] <TabAtkins> Topic: webkit-mask
  354. # [18:58] <TabAtkins> glazou: The WG needs to discuss this because of the f2f discussions in paris.
  355. # [18:58] <TabAtkins> glazou: I spent roughly 20 minutes today looking for sites using this in production. It's spreading fast.
  356. # [18:59] <fantasai> http://robert.ocallahan.org/2008/06/applying-svg-effects-to-html-content_04.html
  357. # [18:59] <TabAtkins> glazou: I'd like to avoid the clash we had in Paris for other properties.
  358. # [18:59] <TabAtkins> glazou: I heard the message from one brwoser vendor that the charis didn't jump on the proeprties implemented by one browser and spreading, so let's do this.
  359. # [18:59] <ChrisL> q+
  360. # [18:59] * Zakim sees ChrisL on the speaker queue
  361. # [18:59] <TabAtkins> fantasai: We had a discussion about these proeprties before, and our conclusion was not to have new properties for masking and reflection, but rather to use the existing SVG properties for this.
  362. # [19:00] <TabAtkins> ChrisL: Agreed. Looking at this blog post, it seems Maciej didn't like or understand them.
  363. # [19:00] <TabAtkins> ChrisL: And we can extend this in the future.
  364. # [19:00] <TabAtkins> ChrisL: Such as using one color channel in an image, or something like that.
  365. # [19:00] <vhardy_> q+
  366. # [19:00] * Zakim sees ChrisL, vhardy_ on the speaker queue
  367. # [19:01] <TabAtkins> ChrisL: So using SVG's seems to be a more workable approach and has a longer implementation history.
  368. # [19:01] <TabAtkins> glazou: There's a trend about webkit-mask today.
  369. # [19:01] <TabAtkins> ChrisL: But if we do this now, SVG will have to support both of them now.
  370. # [19:01] * mollydotcom raises hand
  371. # [19:01] * Zakim sees ChrisL, vhardy_, mollydotcom on the speaker queue
  372. # [19:01] <TabAtkins> ack ChrisL
  373. # [19:01] * Zakim sees vhardy_, mollydotcom on the speaker queue
  374. # [19:02] <fantasai> plinss++
  375. # [19:02] <TabAtkins> ChrisL: We've had this confusion before, and we'd like to avoid it if possible.
  376. # [19:02] <TabAtkins> plinss: We do need to address this, but that' snot necessarily by introducing these proeprties per se.
  377. # [19:02] <TabAtkins> ack vhardy_
  378. # [19:02] * Zakim sees mollydotcom on the speaker queue
  379. # [19:03] <TabAtkins> vhardy_: Some of the uses I saw was people using masks to fill text with a gradient. Is that what you saw?
  380. # [19:03] <plinss> ack mollydotcom
  381. # [19:03] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  382. # [19:03] <TabAtkins> glazou: Most of what I saw was masks on images.
  383. # [19:03] * Joins: jet (jet@67.169.43.128)
  384. # [19:03] <TabAtkins> mollydotcom: Once again we see a webkit property proliferating, so I agree with Daniel that we need to address it. Just saying "here's SVG" won't win the day.
  385. # [19:04] <TabAtkins> mollydotcom: We should sync with SVG, but the demand is already here and needs syntax that people understand (CSS, not SVG).
  386. # [19:04] <glazou> +1
  387. # [19:04] <glazou> unfortunately
  388. # [19:04] <vhardy_> fantasai++
  389. # [19:04] <TabAtkins> fantasai: The proposal is to take a property that SVG already has and say "you can use it on HTML too".
  390. # [19:05] <smfr> applying a mask should not require typing angle brackets
  391. # [19:05] <TabAtkins> mollydotcom: Once the precedent is widely created, how do we turn back?
  392. # [19:05] <fantasai> instead of inventing a new property that does something that's almost the same as something we have
  393. # [19:05] <smfr> what is the proposal?
  394. # [19:06] <JohnJansen> I think this boils down to something being implemented in webkit, but no one brings that to the WG to get it standardized. It would be good to have a process other than "I've heard of this new thing in webkit..." who owns bringing something to the WG?
  395. # [19:06] <glazou> TabAtkins: the two of you are difficult to listen to :-)
  396. # [19:06] <fantasai> http://people.mozilla.com/~roc/SVG-CSS-Effects-Draft.html
  397. # [19:06] * mollydotcom thanks john for saying what I couldn't articulate
  398. # [19:06] <TabAtkins> ChrisL: You don't need to point to SVG. The property lets you point to an image.
  399. # [19:06] * Quits: drublic (drublic@93.132.255.165) (Client exited)
  400. # [19:06] <fantasai> JohnJansen: it was brought to the WG. And the WG decided to go with roc's approach.
  401. # [19:07] <fantasai> JohnJansen: but nothing happened, so now people are panicking
  402. # [19:07] <dbaron> and then there's also http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-css3-images-20120112/#element-reference
  403. # [19:07] <dbaron> which we just decided to remove
  404. # [19:07] <smfr> dbaron: that's certainly relevant for reflections
  405. # [19:07] <Zakim> -SteveZ.a
  406. # [19:07] <dbaron> smfr, yes
  407. # [19:07] <sylvaing> JohnJansen: yes, this is not a new random thing.
  408. # [19:08] <TabAtkins> krit: 'mask' actually needs to point to a <mask> element.
  409. # [19:08] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: And that's not cool. :/
  410. # [19:08] <TabAtkins> ChrisL: We could use the same simplifying technique we used with 'filter' to make it CSS-friendly.
  411. # [19:08] <TabAtkins> plinss: In general that's okay.
  412. # [19:08] <JohnJansen> fantasai, sylvaing: I realize that... where is the proposal, though?
  413. # [19:08] <sylvaing> John: see links posted above
  414. # [19:08] <TabAtkins> plinss: So could someone propose a clean CSS syntax for this?
  415. # [19:09] <TabAtkins> hober: I can write up what webkit currently does, but I'm not sure I'm the best person to harmonize with SVG.
  416. # [19:09] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins and vhardy_: We can help.
  417. # [19:09] <Zakim> -bradk
  418. # [19:09] <fantasai> dbaron: we didn't decide to remove it, we decided to defer it
  419. # [19:09] <bradk> sorry. Gots to go.
  420. # [19:10] <TabAtkins> glazou: And reflections.
  421. # [19:10] <Zakim> -stearns
  422. # [19:10] * vhardy_ hardy, krit and divya need to drop off
  423. # [19:10] <Zakim> -vhardy_
  424. # [19:10] <glazou> ok
  425. # [19:10] * Quits: vhardy_ (vhardy@192.150.10.201) (Quit: vhardy_)
  426. # [19:10] <TabAtkins> dbaron: We had something - the element() property - that would have allowed reflections, but we decided to defer it a few weeks ago.
  427. # [19:10] <Zakim> -ChrisL
  428. # [19:10] * Quits: Katie (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
  429. # [19:10] <Zakim> -smfr
  430. # [19:10] <TabAtkins> s/property/function/
  431. # [19:10] <Zakim> -glazou
  432. # [19:10] <dbaron> s/property/value/
  433. # [19:10] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  434. # [19:10] <Zakim> -dbaron
  435. # [19:11] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
  436. # [19:11] <Zakim> -kojiishi
  437. # [19:11] <Zakim> -hober
  438. # [19:11] <Zakim> -sylvaing
  439. # [19:11] * Parts: antonp (50a94e63@64.62.228.82)
  440. # [19:11] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.aaa]
  441. # [19:11] <Zakim> -plinss
  442. # [19:11] <Zakim> -Molly_Holzschlag
  443. # [19:11] <Zakim> -fantasai
  444. # [19:11] * Quits: PhilCupp (pcupp@131.107.0.85) (Quit: PhilCupp)
  445. # [19:11] <Zakim> -TabAtkins
  446. # [19:11] <Zakim> -glenn
  447. # [19:11] * Quits: JohnJansen (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
  448. # [19:11] <Zakim> -dstorey
  449. # [19:11] <glazou> plinss: tty in an hour for the other call
  450. # [19:11] <Zakim> -Bert
  451. # [19:11] <Zakim> -??P5
  452. # [19:11] <Zakim> -??P53
  453. # [19:11] <plinss> glazou: yep
  454. # [19:11] <fantasai> Bert: I forgot to check in the image for b&b
  455. # [19:11] <fantasai> Bert: it's done now
  456. # [19:11] * Joins: vhardy_ (vhardy@192.150.10.201)
  457. # [19:11] * fantasai looks for the changeset
  458. # [19:12] <Zakim> -katie
  459. # [19:12] <Bert> Thanks, Elika!
  460. # [19:12] <Zakim> -antonp
  461. # [19:12] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  462. # [19:12] <Zakim> Attendees were +1.206.324.aaaa, sylvaing, glazou, plinss, glenn, +1.619.846.aabb, hober, +1.650.766.aacc, SteveZ, bradk, +1.650.253.aadd, TabAtkins, arronei, +1.206.550.aaee,
  463. # [19:12] <Zakim> ... stearns, Molly_Holzschlag, +93550aaff, antonp, +1.415.832.aagg, [Microsoft], fantasai, JohnJansen, Bert, vhardy_, kojiishi, +1.415.766.aahh, dbaron, ChrisL, +1.408.636.aaii,
  464. # [19:12] <Zakim> ... smfr, dstorey, katie
  465. # [19:12] <Bert> You regenerated Overview.html as well?
  466. # [19:12] <fantasai> yep
  467. # [19:12] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-background/#corner-shaping
  468. # [19:12] <fantasai> Bert: I also tweaked the note a bit more to make it clearer
  469. # [19:12] <fantasai> Bert: I roped a friend into reviewing it for me :)
  470. # [19:13] <fantasai> Bert: Hopefully it's better now
  471. # [19:15] <Bert> Looks good.
  472. # [19:15] * Quits: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.169) (Quit: Fire on main board error, client combusted)
  473. # [19:16] * Quits: bradk (bradk@99.7.175.117) (Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/ )
  474. # [19:16] * Parts: mollydotcom (mollyh@68.231.163.89)
  475. # [19:20] <fantasai> TabAtkins: we should hang out sometime soon and go through all the values issues
  476. # [19:20] <fantasai> TabAtkins: and maybe plot our next conquest
  477. # [19:21] <TabAtkins> kk
  478. # [19:21] * fantasai should be available most days next week
  479. # [19:21] <TabAtkins> I'm logging some issues now. There are several.
  480. # [19:21] <fantasai> indeed
  481. # [19:23] * Quits: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19) (Quit: glazou)
  482. # [19:24] * Quits: tantek (tantek@70.36.139.112) (Quit: tantek)
  483. # [19:25] * Joins: krit1 (Adium@192.150.10.201)
  484. # [19:26] * Quits: krit (Adium@192.150.10.201) (Ping timeout)
  485. # [19:26] * Quits: smfr (smfr@17.212.152.232) (Quit: smfr)
  486. # [19:27] * Joins: krit (Adium@192.150.10.201)
  487. # [19:28] * Quits: krit1 (Adium@192.150.10.201) (Ping timeout)
  488. # [19:34] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Our testsuite for V&U is going to have to involve us using calc() and attr() in *every single location* they can possibly be used in.
  489. # [19:37] * miketaylr is now known as miketaylr|
  490. # [19:37] * miketaylr| is now known as miketaylr||
  491. # [19:43] <krit> TabAtkins: espexially for relative values :)
  492. # [19:44] <Ms2ger> Actually, shouldn't your nick be krid?
  493. # [19:46] * Joins: drublic (drublic@77.2.133.250)
  494. # [19:48] * Quits: vhardy_ (vhardy@192.150.10.201) (Ping timeout)
  495. # [19:49] * Quits: dstorey (Adium@67.180.84.179) (Quit: Leaving.)
  496. # [19:52] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: location in the grammar or every possible property?
  497. # [19:52] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: Every property, as much as we can do.
  498. # [19:52] <TabAtkins> There are many places in the grammar where it's not allowed.
  499. # [19:52] * Joins: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19)
  500. # [19:52] * Parts: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19)
  501. # [19:59] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@50.0.192.105) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  502. # [20:01] * Parts: ksweeney (ksweeney@63.119.10.10)
  503. # [20:06] * Joins: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.169)
  504. # [20:08] <TabAtkins> Hm, I can't find the email with instructions on what to call for the director.
  505. # [20:08] <TabAtkins> plinss fantasai ?
  506. # [20:09] * Joins: vhardy_ (vhardy@192.150.10.201)
  507. # [20:11] <TabAtkins> Actually, I've found the email that talks about it, and it simply has no information. I have no idea who I'm supposed to call.
  508. # [20:15] <TabAtkins> plinss: fantasai: ?_?
  509. # [20:16] <plinss> TabAtkins: sorry, I'm not catching the context of your question
  510. # [20:16] * Quits: jet (jet@67.169.43.128) (Quit: jet)
  511. # [20:16] <TabAtkins> The call with the director is supposed to happen at 6pm GMT today. Which is 8 minutes ago.
  512. # [20:18] * Joins: dstorey (Adium@67.180.84.179)
  513. # [20:18] <TabAtkins> So... should we be in a conf call right now with TimBL or not?
  514. # [20:20] <plinss> ah, the images cr transition? we're doing that now, don't think we need you at this point
  515. # [20:20] <TabAtkins> Oh. I thought editors were needed on the call.
  516. # [20:21] <plinss> generally not, unless there's something contentious
  517. # [20:21] <TabAtkins> Okay. glazou reminded me of it, so I wasn't sure.
  518. # [20:21] <TabAtkins> Carry on then.
  519. # [20:22] * Quits: dstorey (Adium@67.180.84.179) (Quit: Leaving.)
  520. # [20:22] <plinss> it's good if you're on standby in case we need you, but generally the chairs and staff contacts take care of it
  521. # [20:25] <sylvaing> If you're 8mn late on a TimBL call I'd guess you've probably missed the whole thing...
  522. # [20:25] <sylvaing> that's like 72 minutes of mere mortal speech
  523. # [20:37] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@159.63.23.38)
  524. # [20:42] * Joins: dstorey (Adium@144.189.101.1)
  525. # [20:45] * Joins: tantek (tantek@208.54.5.205)
  526. # [20:47] * Quits: vhardy_ (vhardy@192.150.10.201) (Client exited)
  527. # [20:47] * Joins: vhardy_ (vhardy@192.150.10.200)
  528. # [20:53] * Quits: nimbu (Adium@192.150.10.201) (Quit: Leaving.)
  529. # [20:55] * Quits: myakura (myakura@119.243.157.97) (Client exited)
  530. # [20:57] * Joins: SteveZ (chatzilla@24.6.120.172)
  531. # [21:07] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  532. # [21:07] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.169)
  533. # [21:12] * Quits: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.169) (Quit: Fire on main board error, client combusted)
  534. # [21:24] * Quits: tantek (tantek@208.54.5.205) (Quit: tantek)
  535. # [21:25] * Joins: isherman (Adium@216.239.45.4)
  536. # [21:26] * Quits: SteveZ (chatzilla@24.6.120.172) (Ping timeout)
  537. # [21:34] * Joins: ksweeney (ksweeney@63.119.10.10)
  538. # [21:34] * Parts: ksweeney (ksweeney@63.119.10.10)
  539. # [21:40] * Joins: tantek (tantek@63.245.220.240)
  540. # [21:43] * Joins: vhardy__ (vhardy@192.150.10.201)
  541. # [21:46] * Quits: vhardy_ (vhardy@192.150.10.200) (Ping timeout)
  542. # [21:46] * Quits: vhardy__ (vhardy@192.150.10.201) (Ping timeout)
  543. # [21:53] * Quits: dstorey (Adium@144.189.101.1) (Quit: Leaving.)
  544. # [21:54] * Joins: vhardy_ (vhardy@192.150.10.201)
  545. # [21:56] * Joins: SteveZ (chatzilla@24.6.120.172)
  546. # [21:57] * Quits: vhardy_ (vhardy@192.150.10.201) (Ping timeout)
  547. # [21:58] * Quits: SteveZ (chatzilla@24.6.120.172) (Client exited)
  548. # [22:02] * Joins: jet (jet@67.169.43.128)
  549. # [22:16] * Joins: dstorey (Adium@144.189.101.1)
  550. # [22:26] * Joins: nimbu (Adium@192.150.10.201)
  551. # [23:13] * Quits: leaverou (leaverou@67.180.84.179) (Quit: leaverou)
  552. # [23:20] * Quits: Liam (liam@128.30.52.169) (Ping timeout)
  553. # [23:22] * miketaylr|| is now known as miketaylr|||
  554. # [23:22] * miketaylr||| is now known as miketaylr||||
  555. # [23:22] * Joins: vhardy_ (vhardy@192.150.10.201)
  556. # [23:23] * Quits: krit (Adium@192.150.10.201) (Quit: Leaving.)
  557. # [23:30] * Quits: Ms2ger (Ms2ger@91.181.245.66) (Quit: nn)
  558. # [23:42] * Quits: vhardy_ (vhardy@192.150.10.201) (Ping timeout)
  559. # [23:44] * Quits: glenn (gadams@174.29.126.179) (Client exited)
  560. # Session Close: Thu Apr 12 00:00:01 2012

The end :)