/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2012-04-25 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Apr 25 00:00:00 2012
# Session Ident: #css
# [00:08] * Joins: krit (Adium@192.150.10.201)
# [00:10] <krit> plinss: fantasai: Hi. I wanted to change the wording of 'Status of this document' But realized, that the source file just has <!--status—>. Do I have to replace it by the complete section If I want to have a different text?
# [00:12] <fantasai> krit: why do you want different text?
# [00:12] <fantasai> krit: oh, joint specs. hm
# [00:12] <fantasai> krit: yeah, I think you need to replace the complete section, and it won't auto-generate nicely for different statuses...
# [00:12] <fantasai> krit: maybe ping Bert?
# [00:12] <krit> fantasai: The specs of FX TF have no shortcut for the text
# [00:12] <fantasai> krit: he can create a macro for FXTF status sections
# [00:13] <fantasai> krit: then you could do, like
# [00:13] <krit> fantasai: yes, I'll ask him. Thanks!
# [00:13] <krit> Bert: ping
# [00:13] <krit> :D
# [00:15] <Bert> Hello Elika, hello krit (whoever you are :-) )
# [00:16] <Bert> The status section, apart from some boilerplate text, is indeed the responsability of the W3C staff.
# [00:16] <krit> hi Bert. I am Dirk Schulze
# [00:16] <hober> fantasai: ok, finally sent a followup / sadface email re: our conversation at the webkit contributors meeting
# [00:16] <Bert> I can make a version for the task force, but what needs to be different?
# [00:17] <krit> Bert: I can give you a link to Filter Effects, one moment
# [00:17] <krit> Bert: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/file/57c55e47d131/filters/Filters.src.html#l121
# [00:17] <krit> Bert: All FX TF specs have this content at the moment
# [00:18] <krit> Bert: Filter Effects (+Shaders) and blending/compositing
# [00:19] <Bert> I see, it needs to mention the SVG WG.
# [00:19] <Bert> That also means we cannot publish it unless we have consensus in both WGs I guess.
# [00:19] <krit> Bert: :(
# [00:20] <krit> Bert: We have a meeting this thursday. I'll add this on the agenda
# [00:20] <shepazu> the SVG WG will meet Thursday, and I don't anticipate any objections
# [00:20] <krit> Bert: do we need a resolution on the CSS WG?
# [00:20] <krit> hi shepazu
# [00:20] <Bert> It's in the charters of both WGs?
# [00:20] <krit> shepazu: —^ Any idea?
# [00:21] <krit> Bert: Maybe I misunderstood you. What do you mean with charter here?
# [00:22] <Bert> Filters is mentioned as a deliverable in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/CSSWG/charter so it is right that the status mentions the CSS WG.
# [00:23] <Bert> It's also in http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/2012/charter so indeed both WGs.
# [00:24] <krit> Bert: oh, yes.
# [00:25] * krit didn't know that animations and transitions are jointly published as well :P
# [00:27] <krit> Bert: by the way, the public mailing list differs as well of course. it is public-fx for FX TF specs.
# [00:28] <Bert> Yes, I saw that.
# [00:29] <Bert> Not sure I'll finish before I fall asleep, but if not, I'll do it tomorrow.
# [00:31] <krit> Bert: that is ok. :) Thanks a lot
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# Session Close: Wed Apr 25 06:10:49 2012
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# Session Start: Wed Apr 25 06:10:49 2012
# Session Ident: #css
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# [06:15] * Topic is 'CSS Working Group | logged at http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/'
# [06:15] * Set by dbaron on Wed Oct 12 02:04:03
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# [17:36] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
# [17:36] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 31 minutes
# [17:36] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [17:36] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
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# [18:03] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
# [18:03] <Zakim> +??P7
# [18:03] <florianr> Zakim, I am ??P7.
# [18:03] <Zakim> +florianr; got it
# [18:04] <Zakim> +??P26
# [18:04] <glazou> Zakim, ??P26 is me
# [18:04] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
# [18:04] <Zakim> +plinss
# [18:05] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
# [18:05] <Zakim> +??P31
# [18:06] <Zakim> +Brian_Leroux
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# [18:06] <Zakim> +stearns
# [18:06] <dbaron> Zakim, ??P31 is dbaron
# [18:06] <Zakim> +dbaron; got it
# [18:06] <arronei_> zakim, microsoft is me
# [18:06] <Zakim> +arronei_; got it
# [18:07] <Zakim> +??P30
# [18:07] <glenn> zakim, ??p30 is glenn
# [18:07] <Zakim> +glenn; got it
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# [18:07] <jdaggett> zakim, ??p43 is me
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# [18:08] <glazou> Zakim, aaaa is alexmog
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# [18:08] <alexmog_> zalim, aaaa is me
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# [18:08] <krit> Zakim: aabb is me
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# [18:09] * Zakim heard dbaron attempt to identify unsuccessfully
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# [18:10] <plinss> zakim, ??p11 is fantasai
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# [18:10] <dstorey> zakim, ??P61 is me
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# [18:10] <JohnJansen> Zakim, Microsoft has JohnJansen
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# [18:10] <plinss> http://www.w3.org/2006/tools/wiki/Zakim_Tips
# [18:11] <glazou> you mean "Zaki, tips?" don't work ?
# [18:11] <Zakim> + +1.281.305.aacc
# [18:11] <glazou> Zakim, tips?
# [18:11] <TabAtkins_> zakim, aacc is me
# [18:11] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, glazou.
# [18:11] <Zakim> +TabAtkins_; got it
# [18:11] * plinss to identify your line, dial 41# to add yourself to the queue…
# [18:11] <glazou> Zakim, who is here?
# [18:11] <Zakim> On the phone I see florianr, glazou, plinss, arronei_, dbaron, Brian_Leroux, ??P36, stearns, glenn (muted), hober, jdaggett, antonp, bradk, alexmog, SteveZ, +1.415.832.aabb,
# [18:11] <Zakim> ... fantasai, Bert, dstorey, [Microsoft], TabAtkins_
# [18:12] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has JohnJansen
# [18:12] <Zakim> On IRC I see JohnJansen, dstorey, bradk, krit, oyvind, florianr, antonp, jdaggett, alexmog_, Zakim, glazou, Ms2ger, kojiishi, Wes-, dbaron, danielfilho, glenn, miketaylr, shepazu,
# [18:12] <krit> Zakim, aabb is me
# [18:12] <Zakim> ... myakura, drublic, SimonSapin, tantek, krijnh, SteveZ, arronei_, Liam, kennyluck, logbot, decadance, ed, isherman, RRSAgent, paul___irish, fantasai, stearns, TabAtkins_, hober,
# [18:12] <Zakim> ... gsnedders, CSSWG_LogBot, vhardy, sylvaing_away, plinss, alexmog, shans, pjrm, Hixie, Bert, trackbot
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# [18:12] <kojiishi> zakim, ??p24 is me
# [18:12] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
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# [18:12] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Bert (25%), glazou (14%), stearns (10%), antonp (4%), TabAtkins_ (30%)
# [18:12] <glazou> Zakim, ??P36 is rbetts
# [18:13] <Zakim> +rbetts; got it
# [18:13] <antonp> ScribeNick: antonp
# [18:13] <antonp> glazou: Topic: extra items for today
# [18:14] <antonp> glazou: item: long thread about tooltip, there's an author expectation about being able to design tooltips in CSS
# [18:14] <antonp> ... simple feature, has some issues but we should tackle it
# [18:14] <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2012AprJun/0099.html
# [18:15] <antonp> glazou: Topic: add Alan Stearns as co-editor to Regions and Exclusions
# [18:15] <antonp> glazou: No objections
# [18:15] <glazou> http://www.w3.org/mid/585D0AE0-087B-4607-9121-C3CBC088E806@adobe.com
# [18:15] <antonp> RESOLVED: add Alan as co-editor to those 2 specs
# [18:15] * fantasai would like to add the display: flexbox bikeshed to the agenda, since if we want to change that we need to do a search/replace on the spec
# [18:15] <antonp> Topic: add Ryan as co-editor to device adaptations spec
# [18:15] <antonp> glazou: No objections
# [18:16] <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2012AprJun/0120.html
# [18:16] <antonp> RESOLVED: Ryan is now co-editor of that spec
# [18:16] * TabAtkins_ fantasai, yeah, I thought we wanted to talk about the alignment spec too.
# [18:16] <antonp> Topic: Regions/Exclusions: request to publish new WD
# [18:16] <antonp> glazou: 4 months since last WDs
# [18:17] <antonp> dbaron: last time around we had a discussion about a note. Has it been revised as agreed
# [18:17] <antonp> alan: I believe so,... but not sure which particular note you're referring to
# [18:18] <antonp> alan: going through action items, bugzilla, mailing list: we're up to date, and notes exist in spec for everything being tracked as of today
# [18:18] <antonp> glazou: other comments?
# [18:18] <antonp> bert: request for notes:
# [18:18] <dbaron> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Dec/0411.html is the note I was thinking of
# [18:18] <glazou> stearns: add me to ACK section of Exclusions?
# [18:19] <antonp> ... we should move out the things we /don't/ want
# [18:19] <antonp> eg the idea of elements being a region
# [18:19] <antonp> ... need a note saying that regions won't becreated like that
# [18:19] <antonp> ??: that wasn't the resolution
# [18:19] <glazou> s/??/stearns
# [18:19] <antonp> ... we never decided to disallow it; just discourage it
# [18:19] <antonp> glazou: don't want to disallow either
# [18:19] <antonp> bert: I want to disallow
# [18:20] <antonp> bert: no redundant elements should exist in a web document
# [18:20] <antonp> alan: we understand the issue, and want to find ways around creating elements, and even if there was an alternative in css to create wrappers, we still don't want to disallow
# [18:21] <antonp> glazou: is a religious discussion! Even if valuable, it can be a comment to the new WD... it's not blocking a new WD
# [18:21] <antonp> bert: but it's no longer a FPWD so want to act now
# [18:21] <antonp> glazou: need a concensus, and I'm not hearing one
# [18:21] <glazou> s/concensus/consensus
# [18:22] <antonp> alan: I can add a bug to track, and a note to the spec
# [18:22] <antonp> dbaron: in the case of exclusions, there wasn't even a consensus that we wanted to work on the thing
# [18:22] <antonp> dbaron: that's why we wanted notes in the spec
# [18:22] <antonp> dbaron: there were conditions to working on the spec, and those conditions weren't met
# [18:22] <dbaron> s/working on/publishing/
# [18:22] <antonp> alan: I'll look back at the conditions, and try to update the Exclusions draft
# [18:23] <antonp> ... with the missing notes
# [18:23] <antonp> .. but I need to know exactly what needs addressing
# [18:23] <dbaron> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Dec/0411.html
# [18:23] <antonp> ??: can we say it's still under discussion?
# [18:23] <krit> s/??/krit/
# [18:24] <antonp> glazou: I'm not sure the assertion in dbaron's post is correct
# [18:24] <antonp> florian: I agree with dbaron's note
# [18:24] <antonp> alan: we want to clarify that Exclusions are not dependent on abspos elements
# [18:24] <antonp> dbaron: OK it's not dependent on abspos, but practically that's how you use it
# [18:25] <antonp> ... not just a question of the examples in the spec; it's about the ways one would use it practically
# [18:25] <antonp> alan: would you be ok with publishing a new WD of exclusions if there was a bugzilla item and a note in the spec referencing it?
# [18:25] <antonp> dbaron: that's what we agreed to as a compromise last time, and it didn't happen
# [18:26] <antonp> ... I don't want to say yes conditionally; I want to see it don
# [18:26] <antonp> alan: I'll work on it today
# [18:26] <antonp> glazou: ok, that defers the discussion on exclusions. Go to email with it
# [18:26] <antonp> ... and now, Regions?
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# [18:27] <antonp> bert: @regions rule: there are alternatives
# [18:27] <antonp> ... pseudo-elements
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# [18:27] <antonp> ... hierarchy notation could also avoid needing @-rules
# [18:27] <antonp> bert: at last F2F somebody presented hierarchies
# [18:27] <antonp> ... they can be employed to avoid using an @-rule
# [18:28] <jdaggett> note: tab presented about hierarchies...
# [18:28] <antonp> bert: don't know if these alternatives are necessary tghe final answer, but think we should investigate alternatives
# [18:28] <antonp> ... would like a note mentioning at least the pseudos alternative
# [18:28] <antonp> glazou: hierarchies wouldn't solve the problem, since it doesn't select boxes
# [18:28] <antonp> fantasai: you'd need pseuod-elements to refer to the region
# [18:29] <antonp> florianr: hierarchies can be used on top
# [18:29] <antonp> glazou: yes, but the main thing is the pseudos
# [18:29] <antonp> glazou: I prefer the @-rule; it's simpler, things are better located in the same place, less repetition
# [18:29] <antonp> fantasai: hierarchies solves the same problem in general, so perhaps we should solve regions with the general solution
# [18:30] <antonp> .... the problem about being able to group rules applies equally to regions and other selectors
# [18:30] <antonp> glazou: hierarchies is a /very/ early draft; should we be relying on it so early?
# [18:30] <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
# [18:30] <antonp> alex: do we need to have an issue in the bug list about syntax?
# [18:30] <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: florianr (5%), glazou (29%), TabAtkins_ (47%)
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# [18:31] <Bert> @region ::first-line { Y {...} } is the same as Y::first-line {...}
# [18:31] <antonp> glazou: bert, would you be happy with a note saying alternative to an @-rule is to use a pseudo?
# [18:31] <antonp> bert: perhaps with more detail, but yes
# [18:31] <antonp> glazou: conditional on the note, can we publish WD?
# [18:31] <antonp> bert: concerned about use of elements
# [18:32] <antonp> bert: I'm reluctant about current situation
# [18:32] <antonp> alan: there's a link to page templates draft in the doc, and the draft has removed all language linking regions to elements
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# [18:32] <antonp> ... they're still there in the examples, but there's nothing about elements in the normative text
# [18:32] <antonp> bert: yes, but the first example is exactly an element
# [18:32] <antonp> glazou: it's only an example!
# [18:32] * ChrisL was working on media queries publication and didn't notice the time, sorry
# [18:33] <antonp> bert: people look at the examples when they look at specs
# [18:33] <antonp> tab: examples still serve well as author guidelines; we should have best practice
# [18:33] <Zakim> +ChrisL
# [18:33] <glazou> hi ChrisL
# [18:33] <antonp> glazou: we change our message on whether specs are tutorials or not every year...
# [18:34] <antonp> alan: I just want to publish a WD on a 6-month old spec with the recent changes, and bury the old draft
# [18:34] <antonp> glazou: I want to close on this
# [18:34] <ChrisL> zakim, mute me
# [18:34] <Zakim> ChrisL should now be muted
# [18:34] <antonp> glazou: objections?
# [18:35] <antonp> glazou: Actions: note about elements, to satisfy Bert; and a note about possibly replacing @-rules with a technique involving pseudo-elements and possibly hierarchies
# [18:35] <ChrisL> +1 to publish
# [18:36] <antonp> bert: subject to those conditions, I'm OK
# [18:36] <antonp> RESOLVED: Publish new WD for regions
# [18:36] <antonp> glazou: Alan to make changes to Exclusions to satisfy dbaron, and then we revisit
# [18:36] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Apr/0499.html
# [18:36] <antonp> TOPIC: Item 2, fonts, syntax of font feature settings
# [18:36] * Joins: dstorey (Adium@67.180.84.179)
# [18:37] <antonp> jdaggett: tags were at least 4 chars in length, didn't mention about less than 4, or type of chars
# [18:37] <antonp> jdaggett: change proposal is to tighten that up
# [18:37] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Apr/0548.html
# [18:37] <ChrisL> q+ to ask about OT and Graphite
# [18:37] * Zakim sees ChrisL on the speaker queue
# [18:37] <antonp> jdaggett: Jonathan Kew brought up concern that we're locking down on OpenType.
# [18:38] <antonp> ... but all along we've discussed including in F2F in March last year: OpenType is where it's at
# [18:38] <ChrisL> q?
# [18:38] * Zakim sees ChrisL on the speaker queue
# [18:39] <antonp> ... don't think that by pinging this to the OpenType format we're not restricting ourselves
# [18:39] <antonp> tab: ???
# [18:39] <SteveZ> +1 for John's comments
# [18:39] <ChrisL> q?
# [18:39] * Zakim sees ChrisL on the speaker queue
# [18:39] <bradk> By the way, I think the examples in the regions specs are fine, because they are simple and focus exclusively on the concepts they are trying to illustrate, without forcing you to read and understand some other spec about pseudo-element generation. And JavaScript generation of regular elements such as DIVs is a reasonable way to use regions.
# [18:39] <antonp> jdaggett: we're not limiting this to defined/registered tags
# [18:39] <antonp> tab: does the UA need to understand it, or is it a straight path to the underlying system
# [18:39] <antonp> jdaggett: it's a straight path
# [18:39] <ChrisL> zakim, unmute me
# [18:39] <Zakim> ChrisL should no longer be muted
# [18:39] <antonp> tab: ok I withdraw my comment
# [18:40] <glazou> Zakim, ack ChrisL
# [18:40] <Zakim> ChrisL, you wanted to ask about OT and Graphite
# [18:40] <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
# [18:40] <antonp> ChrisL: I think it's a good restriction, reminds me of the restriction on lnaguage tags, which were 2, and were then extensible to 3 chars etc
# [18:40] <fantasai> q+
# [18:40] * Zakim sees fantasai on the speaker queue
# [18:40] <antonp> ... by making it clear and specific, we actually allow ourselves to expand the possiblities later
# [18:40] <antonp> ... .... fucntional syntax proposed
# [18:41] <antonp> ... jdaggett: Graphite has problem that there's no structure; there are fonts which ship with ?? numeric value like 1001
# [18:41] <antonp> ... apps are forced to support this through font-specific UI
# [18:41] <antonp> ... not a good pattern
# [18:41] <antonp> ... restricting to 4-char tags isn't a big burden for fonts
# [18:42] <antonp> ... encouraging them to move to set of registered tags in opentype is good; brings consistency
# [18:42] <antonp> ChrisL: you mean binary-encoded 1001?
# [18:42] <antonp> jdaggett: yeah
# [18:42] <antonp> ... Right now we can't express that in this syntax at all
# [18:42] <glazou> Zakim, ack fantasai
# [18:42] <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
# [18:42] <antonp> ... I don't think that's a bad thing
# [18:42] <antonp> fantasai: in CSS we don't hard-code anything about particular formats we integrate with
# [18:43] <antonp> ... eg png images
# [18:43] <antonp> ... I don't see benefit of resitrcitions to authors here
# [18:43] <ChrisL> elika, yes we do. we normatively reference opentype, no?
# [18:43] <antonp> ... prevents experimentation due to our syntax restrictions
# [18:43] <antonp> ... I see problems with this change. I'm against
# [18:43] <antonp> jdaggett: theoritically yes, but practically there's no tech out there right now which has this problem
# [18:44] <antonp> .. look at AAT as an aexample of something that might be different, but nothing's coming into existence
# [18:44] <ChrisL> it like thoretically, we need link type="text/css" but in practice ....
# [18:44] <antonp> ... without syntax checking, there's no way of guiding authors along
# [18:45] <antonp> ... an author that's creating an implementation and experimenting with a new font format, is not a blocking thing
# [18:45] <antonp> ... want to make sure that real UAs do the right thing
# [18:45] <antonp> ... so fantasai's point is true theoretically but not in practice
# [18:45] <Zakim> -bradk
# [18:45] <antonp> ChrisL: in practice there's only CSS even tho in theory there are other stylesheet langs
# [18:46] <antonp> ChrisL: we reference OpenType a lot, we've already tended towards it; that's what people are calling for right now and can use right now
# [18:46] <Bert> (q+ to say that there is no "OpenType" in the name of the property
# [18:46] <Bert> q+ to say that there is no "OpenType" in the name of the property
# [18:46] * Zakim sees Bert on the speaker queue
# [18:46] <Zakim> +bradk
# [18:46] <antonp> fantasai: We're not saying you can't use a different format, but if you're using other tech it makes sense for CSS to trigger its abilities without being restricted by our syntax
# [18:47] <dbaron> I think it's the first time that that CSS value correctness (whether it's a parse error) depends on something that's inside the contents of a string, which feels a little weird to me
# [18:47] <antonp> ... we're preventing people from implementing new font engines without violating our spec
# [18:47] <antonp> jdaggett: what you said is wrong
# [18:47] <kennyluck> +1 to dbaron's comment
# [18:47] * tantek is participating only by irc for this meeting (cc: scribe / antonp)
# [18:47] <ChrisL> john is saying what i was trying to say. the high level things are font format agnostic. its only the low-level espaces that are opentype specific
# [18:47] <antonp> ... there's nothing in the spec that says you cant implement to another format; it's only the low-level syntax that you can't access
# [18:47] <SteveZ> q+
# [18:47] * Zakim sees Bert, SteveZ on the speaker queue
# [18:48] <glazou> Zakim, ack Bert
# [18:48] <Zakim> Bert, you wanted to say that there is no "OpenType" in the name of the property
# [18:48] <Zakim> I see SteveZ on the speaker queue
# [18:48] <antonp> bert: I agree with fantasai, we shouldn't restrict to OpenType
# [18:48] <ChrisL> we are not restricting "for ever"
# [18:48] <stearns> and we're only restricting a tiny section of the overall functionality
# [18:48] <ChrisL> nobody said 'for ever" except for bert
# [18:48] <antonp> Tab: we can always issue updates... not restricting us forever
# [18:48] <glazou> then SteveZ
# [18:49] <antonp> dbaron: feels weird to make parse-time validity dependent on what's inside a string; no precedent
# [18:49] <glazou> Zakim, ack SteveZ
# [18:49] <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
# [18:49] <ChrisL> q+ to suggest a new type which is a subset of string
# [18:49] * Zakim sees ChrisL on the speaker queue
# [18:49] <fantasai> Tab, I don't think the CSSWG should be required to issue updates to its syntax because some other layout team wants to use a font tech other than OpenType
# [18:49] <antonp> szilles: Benefit for user is they get early checking of errors that could have strange effects if they ran through to the clients
# [18:49] <antonp> szilles: it's good to catch things early
# [18:50] <antonp> ... Second point: This is a low-level feature, it's largely designed with OpenType in mind. jdaggett's point is that if there;s a different format then the syntax is inappropriate and the vendor could always create an experimental feature to deal with it
# [18:51] <antonp> ... it's not locking out; it's just recognizing that our particular syntax is OT-oriented
# [18:51] <antonp> ... there are reasons for orienting towards a particular format
# [18:51] <antonp> jdaggett: We've talked about this before; in March F2F last year I said: wrap a functional notation around all of these tags, eg "ot-"
# [18:51] <ChrisL> we talked about this several times before. but we keep revisiting with no real new information
# [18:52] <antonp> ... but it's redundant,
# [18:52] <antonp> ... underneath you're passing to OT anyway
# [18:52] <glazou> Zakim:
# [18:52] <glazou> Zakim, ack ChrisL
# [18:52] <Zakim> ChrisL, you wanted to suggest a new type which is a subset of string
# [18:52] <fantasai> ChrisL, we haven't. Not this specific issue.
# [18:52] <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
# [18:52] <antonp> ChrisL: re dbaron's point about string checking
# [18:52] <antonp> ... Make a new type for 4-char ASCII string?
# [18:52] <antonp> ... Wouldn't impact implementations, only specs themselves
# [18:53] <antonp> dbaron: I don't think that makes a difference
# [18:53] <antonp> .... there's still value in it
# [18:53] <antonp> plinss: ot- prefix or functional notation does satisfy the parsing thing that dbaron is mentioning
# [18:53] <antonp> ... If we have an OT-specific functional notation that leaves us room to move later, eg the 4-char restriction
# [18:54] <antonp> jdaggett: theoretically yes, but in practice no
# [18:54] <antonp> plinss: we need to be explicit whether this is OT-specific or generic
# [18:54] <antonp> jdaggett: We don't need individual property names for different font technology; it's overkill
# [18:54] <antonp> tab: reason we went with strings, .....something about escaping.....
# [18:55] <antonp> .... ot- is easier to type than quote symbols
# [18:55] <antonp> ... automatically gets round the namespacing issue
# [18:55] <antonp> jdaggett: we were encouraged to use strings
# [18:55] <antonp> tab: unrestricted items prevent us from expanding, unless done very carefully
# [18:55] <antonp> ,... prefixes help avoid that difficulty
# [18:55] <antonp> plinss: I slightly prefer the functional notation and solves the bare item problem
# [18:56] * Joins: nimbu (Adium@217.153.68.26)
# [18:56] <dbaron> s/bare item/bare ident/
# [18:56] <antonp> ... I'm not arguing strongly for it; just throwing it out there
# [18:56] <antonp> glazou: no consensus at the moment
# [18:56] <antonp> jdaggett: every time we talk about this we go full circle
# [18:56] <antonp> ... we're wasting time on the telecon
# [18:56] <antonp> ... if you want to object, do it on the list!
# [18:56] <antonp> <some light arguing>
# [18:57] <antonp> glazou: let's move on
# [18:57] <ChrisL> sigh.
# [18:57] <ChrisL> I am in favour too, plus it is what is implemented
# [18:57] <antonp> dbaron: I'm in favour of jdaggett's proposal
# [18:57] <glazou> Zakim, who is on the phone?
# [18:57] <Zakim> On the phone I see florianr, glazou, plinss, arronei_, dbaron, Brian_Leroux, rbetts, stearns, glenn (muted), hober, jdaggett, antonp, alexmog, SteveZ, krit, fantasai, Bert,
# [18:57] <antonp> Straw poll!
# [18:57] <Zakim> ... dstorey, [Microsoft], TabAtkins_, kojiishi, ChrisL, bradk
# [18:57] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has JohnJansen
# [18:57] <antonp> florianr: abstain
# [18:57] <antonp> glazou: for
# [18:58] <antonp> plinss: for, but preference for a bit tighter
# [18:58] <antonp> arron: abstain
# [18:58] <antonp> dbaron: for
# [18:58] <antonp> brian: abstain
# [18:58] <antonp> ryan: abstain
# [18:58] <antonp> alan: for
# [18:58] <glenn> glenn abstain
# [18:58] <antonp> glenn: abstain
# [18:58] <antonp> hober: abstain:@
# [18:58] <antonp> jdaggett: for
# [18:58] <antonp> antonp: abstain
# [18:58] <antonp> alex: abstain
# [18:58] <antonp> szilles: for
# [18:59] <antonp> derek: abstain
# [18:59] <antonp> fantasai: against
# [18:59] <fantasai> but I can live with it
# [18:59] <krit> s/derek/krit/
# [18:59] <ChrisL> s/against/against but can live with/
# [18:59] <antonp> bert: against
# [18:59] <bradk> (I was abstain)
# [18:59] <antonp> dstorey: abstain
# [18:59] <antonp> jjanson: abstain
# [18:59] <antonp> tab: for
# [18:59] <antonp> koji: abstain
# [18:59] <antonp> ChrisL: for
# [19:00] <ChrisL> zakim, count totals
# [19:00] <Zakim> I don't understand 'count totals', ChrisL
# [19:00] <JohnJansen> s/jjanson/JohnJansen
# [19:00] * Joins: jet (jet@67.169.43.128)
# [19:00] <antonp> ChrisL: if most people don't care; that means stay with current proposal
# [19:00] <JohnJansen> s/jjanson/johnjansen
# [19:00] <antonp> bert: I can live with it
# [19:01] <ChrisL> yay
# [19:01] <antonp> glazou: we can all live with it
# [19:01] <jdaggett> thanks!
# [19:01] <antonp> glenn: proposal is accepted
# [19:01] <ChrisL> minuted resolution please
# [19:01] <antonp> RESOLVED: proposal is accepted
# [19:01] <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2012AprJun/0096.html
# [19:01] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Apr/0650.html
# [19:01] <antonp> TOPIC: Publish new WD about writing modes
# [19:01] <antonp> fantasai: I need to make more edits to address jdaggett's comments
# [19:02] <antonp> ... UTR50 (?) updated a few days ago, I need to update references
# [19:02] <Bert> q+ to ask if we know anything about TR 50 schedule
# [19:02] * Zakim sees Bert on the speaker queue
# [19:02] <glazou> Zakim, ack Bert
# [19:02] <Zakim> Bert, you wanted to ask if we know anything about TR 50 schedule
# [19:02] <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
# [19:02] <antonp> jdaggett: it's the set of three paragraphs and that's it
# [19:02] <antonp> bert: is UTR-50 updated?
# [19:02] <antonp> jdaggett: there's supposed to be a discussion at the Unicode meeting
# [19:02] <ChrisL> s/TR 50/UTR-50/
# [19:03] <antonp> bert: are there any predictions about the outcome of the meeting?
# [19:03] <antonp> fantasai: people working on it are aligning
# [19:03] <antonp> fantasai: our spec will be more stable because we'll reference the concept being described in the the other spec
# [19:03] <antonp> ... and even if the other spec changes, our reference will still remain correct
# [19:03] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
# [19:04] <antonp> fantasai: we can resolve to publish pending jdaggett's approval of the edits?
# [19:04] <stearns> probably no time to come back around to this, but the text dbaron wanted to see in the exclusions draft is already there, in issue 1
# [19:04] <antonp> szilles: I send a request to clarify something about text-combine that I was unclear about
# [19:04] <antonp> ... Koji also had issues
# [19:05] <antonp> fantasai: I'll make sure the issues are tracked
# [19:05] <antonp> glazou: provided the changes are made, shall we release new WD? Objections?
# [19:05] <antonp> RESOLVED: make changes and then publish new WD
# [19:05] * ChrisL Bert I will be out next week, could you handle these two publications?
# [19:05] * Bert to Chris: sure
# [19:06] <antonp> Tab: I request that WD should review the DoC of values+units
# [19:06] <antonp> fantasai: I will add additional info
# [19:06] <Zakim> -krit
# [19:06] <antonp> glazou: Bye everyone
# [19:06] <Zakim> -florianr
# [19:06] <Zakim> -alexmog
# [19:06] <Zakim> -dbaron
# [19:06] <Zakim> -arronei_
# [19:06] <Zakim> -ChrisL
# [19:06] <Zakim> -SteveZ
# [19:06] <Zakim> -bradk
# [19:06] <Zakim> -glazou
# [19:06] <Zakim> -fantasai
# [19:06] <Zakim> -hober
# [19:06] <Zakim> -kojiishi
# [19:06] <Zakim> -Bert
# [19:06] <Zakim> -Brian_Leroux
# [19:06] <Zakim> -dstorey
# [19:06] <Zakim> -stearns
# [19:06] <Zakim> -TabAtkins_
# [19:06] <Zakim> -jdaggett
# [19:06] <Zakim> -antonp
# [19:06] <antonp> fantasai/glazou: do I have to do something to close the minuting?
# [19:06] <Zakim> -plinss
# [19:06] <Zakim> -glenn
# [19:07] <fantasai> antonp: nope
# [19:07] <antonp> cool
# [19:07] <fantasai> RRSAgent: make minutes
# [19:07] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/04/25-css-minutes.html fantasai
# [19:07] <fantasai> well, that makes some provisional minutes
# [19:07] <antonp> nice!
# [19:07] <fantasai> but the ones I send to the mailing list are formatted off raw logs
# [19:07] <antonp> That's what I thought
# [19:07] <antonp> Thanks!
# [19:07] <fantasai> np
# [19:07] <antonp> I hope the raw logs are ok!!
# [19:11] <glazou> thanks for scribing antonp
# [19:11] <antonp> np!
# [19:12] <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, rbetts, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
# [19:12] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
# [19:12] <Zakim> Attendees were florianr, glazou, plinss, Brian_Leroux, stearns, dbaron, arronei_, glenn, hober, jdaggett, antonp, bradk, +1.425.246.aaaa, SteveZ, +1.415.832.aabb, alexmog, Bert,
# [19:12] <Zakim> ... fantasai, dstorey, JohnJansen, +1.281.305.aacc, TabAtkins_, krit, kojiishi, rbetts, ChrisL
# [19:12] * Quits: glazou (glazou@85.168.27.11) (Quit: glazou)
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# [19:27] <antonp> NOTE: tantek was attending the telecon via IRC
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# [19:52] <dholbert> fantasai, question on the "Resolving Flexible Lengths" chunk, when you've got a minute
# [19:53] <dholbert> ( http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-flexbox/#resolve-flexible-lengths )
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# [20:03] <dholbert> alternately: TabAtkins_ ^
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# [20:27] <dholbert> fantasai / TabAtkins_: (nevermind -- partly figured it out -- replying on www-style)
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# [21:08] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
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# [21:50] <Liam> fantasai: thanks (text alignment / justification) silly me for looking for text alignment in the alignment spec! :-)
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# [23:00] <fantasai> Liam: Probably should call it "box alignment" or something
# [23:01] <fantasai> Liam: I'm open to name suggestions :) Just so long as they say something about alignment, so people know the CSS equivalent of the align attributes are there
# [23:01] <Liam> boxalignment might work, yes
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# [23:54] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Do you have any concrete plans to draw up css4-images?
# [23:54] * fantasai figures we should have an editor's draft with element() in it pretty soon
# [23:54] * fantasai like, before the f2f
# Session Close: Thu Apr 26 00:00:00 2012

The end :)