/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2012-04-27 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Apr 27 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  18. # [02:31] <jdaggett> fantasai: ping
  19. # [02:38] <fantasai> jdaggett: pong
  20. # [02:39] <jdaggett> so tell me what you know about the ever-so-funky escaping mechanism in css
  21. # [02:39] <jdaggett> specifically
  22. # [02:39] <jdaggett> if something is escaped, is it automatically considered an ident?
  23. # [02:40] <jdaggett> e.g. font-size: \33 px; causes a parse error or not?
  24. # [02:40] <jdaggett> fantasai: ^
  25. # [02:40] <fantasai> jdaggett: yes
  26. # [02:41] <jdaggett> so font-family: \69 nherit; is equivalent to font-family: inherit;
  27. # [02:42] <jdaggett> ?
  28. # [02:43] <fantasai> yes
  29. # [02:45] <jdaggett> what's your opinion on the 'default' and 'initial' keywords?
  30. # [02:45] <fantasai> I think 'initial' is useful and well-defined
  31. # [02:45] <fantasai> it's in css3-values, btw
  32. # [02:45] <jdaggett> UA's are supposed to treat them as syntax errors in font family names
  33. # [02:45] <fantasai> yes
  34. # [02:46] <jdaggett> but....
  35. # [02:46] <fantasai> we raised a 2.1 issue on that actually
  36. # [02:46] * fantasai looks it up
  37. # [02:46] <jdaggett> the behavior is completely inconsistent across UA
  38. # [02:46] <fantasai> exactly
  39. # [02:46] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Apr/0638.html
  40. # [02:46] <jdaggett> that is, the treatment of those keywords in unquoted family names
  41. # [02:47] <jdaggett> right, I guess I'm wondering if we should change the spec to match reality
  42. # [02:47] <jdaggett> i.e. all UA's ignore default
  43. # [02:47] <jdaggett> i.e. font-family: default; will parse just fine
  44. # [02:48] <jdaggett> also
  45. # [02:48] <fantasai> 'default' was reserved because there were proposals to make it a common keyword
  46. # [02:48] <fantasai> just like initial
  47. # [02:48] <fantasai> Tab and I are thinking of speccing it in css3-cascade
  48. # [02:48] <jdaggett> what's your opinion of font-family: sans-serif initial, cursive; ?
  49. # [02:48] <fantasai> I think it should be invalid
  50. # [02:49] <fantasai> per the above issue ^
  51. # [02:49] <fantasai> it's just easier if we do it that way
  52. # [02:49] <fantasai> imo
  53. # [02:49] <fantasai> exclude them from all user-defined identifiers
  54. # [02:49] <jdaggett> so that's not the behavior of *any* UA currently
  55. # [02:50] <jdaggett> not that this is at all important... ;)
  56. # [02:50] <fantasai> :)
  57. # [02:50] <fantasai> right now it's pretty inconsistent
  58. # [02:50] <fantasai> and I think having a very simple definition that makes all the cases we want invalid invalid
  59. # [02:50] <fantasai> is probably the best way to go
  60. # [02:50] <fantasai> and making it invalid in any position that's not "font-family: inherit" seems the simplest
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  62. # [02:51] <jdaggett> so what about font-family: sans-serif serif, cursive; ?
  63. # [02:51] * jdaggett chuckles at the degree to which one can waste time on edge cases...
  64. # [02:52] <fantasai> .....
  65. # [02:52] <fantasai> :/
  66. # [02:52] <fantasai> make it invalid?
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  68. # [02:53] <jdaggett> yeah, this is one case where I think we should change the wording to be sure that this *isn't* invalid
  69. # [02:55] <jdaggett> again, silly non-existent examples
  70. # [02:55] <fantasai> I don't think it much matters what we do there
  71. # [02:55] <fantasai> yeah
  72. # [02:55] <fantasai> so we should just do whatever's easiest to get interop on
  73. # [02:55] <jdaggett> yeah
  74. # [02:56] * miketaylr is now known as miketaylrawaylol
  75. # [02:56] <jdaggett> next up, exploring how escapes affect the 'font' shorthand treatment of family names
  76. # [02:56] <jdaggett> never a dull moment
  77. # [02:56] <fantasai> that shouldn't change anything interesting...
  78. # [02:56] <jdaggett> nope
  79. # [02:56] <jdaggett> or, at least, i hope not
  80. # [03:02] <pjrm> (fwiw, at least my own implementation would be easier if font-family: foo initial, bar, serif (or s/initial/inherit/ or whatever) meant font-family: "foo initial", "bar", serif : I initially see only that there are two identifier tokens followed by a comma token, and don't try to see whether it's something special like inherit unless unless there's only one identifier there.)
  81. # [03:02] <pjrm> (not that it's a big deal.)
  82. # [03:03] <fantasai> no,that's useful to know
  83. # [03:04] <jdaggett> yeah, i think i tend to agree with you
  84. # [03:04] <fantasai> pjrm: what about for counter names?
  85. # [03:04] <jdaggett> i.e. font-family: inherit blah, serif; should parse just fine and be equivalent to font-family: serif (assuming no weird fonts)
  86. # [03:04] <fantasai> pjrm: counter-reset: none 0; or counter-reset: inherit 0;
  87. # [03:05] <jdaggett> ew
  88. # [03:05] <fantasai> jdaggett: what if you have a font called "inherit blah"?
  89. # [03:05] <fantasai> jdaggett: I think it should either be invalid, or selecto "inherit blah"
  90. # [03:05] <jdaggett> right, it would match that *if* such a font exists
  91. # [03:05] * fantasai thinks we don't have a very good user-defined identifier story here
  92. # [03:06] <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-values/#identifiers
  93. # [03:06] <fantasai> Should send comments on that :)
  94. # [03:06] <fantasai> counter-reset would be defined as
  95. # [03:06] <fantasai> counter-reset: none | <identifier> <integer>?;
  96. # [03:07] <fantasai> and font-family could be font-family: <string> | <identifier>+
  97. # [03:07] <fantasai> (assuming appropriate multipliers)
  98. # [03:07] <fantasai> and I think that would be good, to have a consistent way of handlign user-defined idents
  99. # [03:07] <fantasai> but if we've got special rules for how they're handled in different places, that makes it difficult
  100. # [03:08] <jdaggett> so you're thinking if it's a "special" ident
  101. # [03:08] <pjrm> (just got back.) Without checking either the spec or my implementation, I think there's a special rule in the spec that says that counter names can't be "inherit" or "default" or "initial", so i check for that explicitly.
  102. # [03:08] <jdaggett> than it should never be allowed anywhere in a user-defined context?
  103. # [03:09] <fantasai> I think that'd be simplest
  104. # [03:09] <fantasai> but I don't work on a CSS parser
  105. # [03:09] <fantasai> it'd certainly be the simplest to define
  106. # [03:09] * jdaggett fantasai feigns ignorance but no one believes her...
  107. # [03:10] <fantasai> But it's true! I only work on the layout parts of Gecko.
  108. # [03:10] <pjrm> I've just checked CSS 2.1 at least: "The keywords 'none', 'inherit' and 'initial' must not be used as counter names."
  109. # [03:10] <fantasai> yay for inconsistency
  110. # [03:13] <pjrm> in the case of font-family: serif, inherit my reading of CSS 2.1 is that it's an invalid declaration:
  111. # [03:13] <pjrm> "Font family names that happen to be the same as a keyword value ('inherit', 'serif', 'sans-serif', 'monospace', 'fantasy', and 'cursive') must be quoted to prevent confusion with the keywords with the same names. The keywords 'initial' and 'default' are reserved for future use and must also be quoted when used as font names. UAs must not consider these keywords as matching the '<family-name>' type."
  112. # [03:13] <pjrm> (i.e. that it's invalid rather than parsed as serif, "inherit".)
  113. # [03:13] <pjrm> (I think the wording there might have changed in the last couple of years.)
  114. # [03:14] <fantasai> yes, we tried to clarify it last year at some point
  115. # [03:14] <fantasai> iirc
  116. # [03:14] <fantasai> maybe the year before
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  118. # [03:28] <jdaggett> right, but that doesn't quite cover the font-family: serif inherit, sans-serif;
  119. # [03:28] <jdaggett> since the *family name* here doesn't match a keyword
  120. # [03:28] <jdaggett> i think i'm fine with that example not parsing
  121. # [03:29] <jdaggett> but i think font-family: sans-serif serif, cursive; should
  122. # [03:29] <jdaggett> just to limit the number of reserved keywords to ones that are reserved everywhere and not just in font family names
  123. # [03:30] <jdaggett> i.e. a counter called sans-serif should be fine
  124. # [03:31] * Liam wonders how many (if any) fonts actually do have "inherit" in their names today. Of course, someone will make one just out of spite :-)
  125. # [03:32] <jdaggett> none, this is much more a parser details discussion than really a discussion of font names
  126. # [03:32] <Liam> yeah, undrstood
  127. # [03:32] <Liam> just made me wonder :)
  128. # [03:33] <jdaggett> btw, the css 2.1 test suite already uses fonts with evil names like this
  129. # [03:33] <Liam> fc-list | grep -i inherit does give me "Inheritance Font" but no other matches.
  130. # [03:33] <Liam> cool, so it should.
  131. # [03:46] * miketaylrawaylol is now known as miketaylr
  132. # [04:01] <Liam> oops, I didn't notice chromium was saying "your browser didn't shut down properly, would you like to restore 55 tabs" and closed it, time to spend an hour looking at history I suppose and wish I'd been using firefox :)
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  139. # [06:50] <krit> Hi. I guess I am not the first one. But just in case: I get 503 on calling http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-animations/
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  141. # [06:50] <krit> works again
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  145. # [06:55] <krit> now it is bugzilla :( Can't connect to the database.
  146. # [07:13] <Liam> krit, yes, we're having some problems
  147. # [07:14] <Liam> unfortunately the database server at the MIT office can't be reached, and there's no-one around who can reboot it
  148. # [07:14] <krit> Liam: Same problem for SVG WG wiki pages
  149. # [07:14] * Liam is in Canada so can't get there in time :-)
  150. # [07:14] <krit> hehe
  151. # [07:15] <Liam> and so is the systems team person who noticed the problem, although a different part of Canada; he texted someone closer but we're guessing there's not much we can do until tomorrow
  152. # [07:15] <krit> Liam: well, It is just the W3C :D
  153. # [07:16] <Liam> yeah :)
  154. # [07:17] <Liam> if we were important to someone, we could wake a sys-team slave up and send him to reboot the computers :-)
  155. # [07:17] <Liam> but we are not important enough to keep slaves, sorry :-)
  156. # [07:18] <krit> to sad
  157. # [07:19] <krit> Liam: Also "SVG has a problem" http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input
  158. # [07:19] <krit> Liam: Is it really the fault of SVG :P
  159. # [07:20] * Liam looks
  160. # [07:20] <Liam> haha
  161. # [07:20] <Liam> EVERYTHING IS THE FAULT OF SVG
  162. # [07:20] <Liam> including shoes.
  163. # [07:22] <krit> Liam: The new privacy of the W3C? w3.org gives "You do not have sufficient privileges to access the page that you requested." :P
  164. # [07:22] <Liam> heh
  165. # [07:22] <Liam> no, just a failed server
  166. # [07:23] <krit> Liam: I thought after the "Do not track me" approaches it is now time for "Do not read me"
  167. # [07:23] <Liam> ok ok ok :-)
  168. # [07:23] * Liam just had another go at rousing people but failed
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  170. # [08:27] <Liam> systems team on their way to MIT
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  174. # [09:34] <Liam> www.w3.org restored
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The end :)