/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2012-05-01 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue May 01 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #css
  3. # [00:00] <krit> Bert: ping
  4. # [00:02] * Quits: jet (jet@67.169.43.128) (Quit: jet)
  5. # [00:38] <isherman> tantek: Not sure if you saw [ https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=85150 ] — wanted to get your thoughts on it
  6. # [00:40] <tantek> isherman - that's interesting
  7. # [00:40] <tantek> btw I believe the comment #2 about specificity is wrong
  8. # [00:40] <tantek> e.g. try this
  9. # [00:40] <tantek> a { color: red }
  10. # [00:40] <tantek> does it turn your links red? no, because the UA rules trigger off of :visited and :link, which have higher specificity
  11. # [00:41] <tantek> so mitz is mistaken
  12. # [00:41] <isherman> hmm, interesting
  13. # [00:41] <tantek> nothing you can do about input[type=text] overriding the input:-webkit-autofill however
  14. # [00:42] <leaverou> TabAtkins_: It would break many existing use cases though I'm afraid. Transitions with transition-property: all; and transition-delay > 0
  15. # [00:42] <tantek> isherman - sounds like correct behavior, site is behaving as authored.
  16. # [00:43] <tantek> so if the site *does* want the default UA handling of the input background, it shouldn't set it in the site style sheet
  17. # [00:43] <isherman> tantek: Regarding the specificity issue, my read of http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/cascade.html#cascading-order is that author declarations are supposed to always take precedence over UA declarations — am I misreading the spec, or is the link coloring behavior an exception?
  18. # [00:43] <tantek> misreading the spec
  19. # [00:44] <tantek> specificity still works as expected, per my trival A vs. :link styling example above
  20. # [00:44] <tantek> that's consistent cross-browser also
  21. # [00:44] <isherman> tantek: so what does the "sort according to importance step" actually achieve? Is that for rules of equal specificity?
  22. # [00:44] <tantek> that's my understanding yes
  23. # [00:45] <tantek> though frankly, that algorithm is a bit too complex to fully follow in one's head
  24. # [00:45] <isherman> hmm, ok...
  25. # [00:48] <isherman> tantek: testing in WebKit with just the author stylesheet styling "input" (not "input[type=text]") seems to override the UA's input:-webkit-autofill styling
  26. # [00:48] <isherman> tantek: so it seems like the A element's behavior might be a special case, that's just consistently special across all the UAs?
  27. # [00:49] <tantek> odd
  28. # [00:49] <tantek> like *that's* not confusing to web authors
  29. # [00:49] <isherman> yeah...
  30. # [00:52] <isherman> so, the ideally desired behavior for the autofill case is to have authors explicitly override the :-webkit-autofill styling; otherwise to use the UA's styling
  31. # [00:53] <isherman> this is because for most websites, the autofill styling is helpful to users, even if the site styles non-autofilled elements — the common case is that the site author would want the autofill styling to be the UA's styling
  32. # [00:53] <tantek> sure - but that's supposed to work due to the greater specificity I'm pretty sure
  33. # [00:54] <isherman> I think even input[type=text] probably shouldn't be overridden
  34. # [00:54] <tantek> worth constructing a test case (with input:-webkit-autofill vs. input and :link vs. a) and emailing www-style
  35. # [00:54] <isherman> I mean I guess we could add input[type=text]:-webkit-autofilled to the UA style sheet
  36. # [00:54] * fantasai looks up
  37. # [00:54] <tantek> especially if you find that true in other browsers
  38. # [00:54] <isherman> ok, I can do that :)
  39. # [00:54] <TabAtkins_> leaverou: Yes, done naively it would.
  40. # [00:54] <tantek> isherman and [type=password]
  41. # [00:55] <fantasai> tantek: your example works fine
  42. # [00:55] <fantasai> tantek: the links are red
  43. # [00:55] <isherman> fantasai: including visited links?
  44. # [00:55] <TabAtkins_> leaverou: I think it'll be done with a special timing-function, perhaps 'discrete', that explicitly opts you into the "Animate me as a single jump, regardless." mode.
  45. # [00:55] <tantek> ok, fantasai - then how were UA style sheets supposed to work at all?
  46. # [00:55] <tantek> seems pretty broken
  47. # [00:55] * isherman checks the links case
  48. # [00:55] <fantasai> isherman: yes
  49. # [00:56] <isherman> hmm, ok :/
  50. # [00:56] <fantasai> tantek: I don't understand what you mean
  51. # [00:56] <fantasai> tantek: they work fine
  52. # [00:56] <fantasai> tantek: they style :link and :visited separately
  53. # [00:56] <fantasai> tantek: if the author styles <a>, then they both get restyled
  54. # [00:56] <fantasai> tantek: but if the author doesn't style <a>, then the UA stylesheet rules apply
  55. # [01:06] <isherman> fantasai: in the case of :-autofill, we'd like to have the UA rule take precedence over any rules of lower specificity
  56. # [01:06] <isherman> fantasai: is there any way to achieve that in the CSS model?
  57. # [01:07] <isherman> (sorry, was afk for a bit)
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  60. # [01:25] <fantasai> isherman: I don't believe so
  61. # [01:25] <fantasai> isherman: I'd poke bzbarsky for ideas
  62. # [01:27] <isherman> fantasai: ok, I'll try getting his thoughts — thanks
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  66. # [02:32] <hober> isherman: in the meantime, http://trac.webkit.org/changeset/113511 should be reverted.
  67. # [02:35] <hober> isherman: Longer-term, it would be good for CSS to have a feature or set of features that let you achieve what you're trying to achieve. but shorter-term, r113511 breaks too much content.
  68. # [02:36] <isherman> hober: I agree, just haven't gotten around to submitting the revert
  69. # [02:36] <isherman> coming soon...
  70. # [02:36] <hober> isherman: thanks
  71. # [02:39] <leaverou> TabAtkins_: That is confusing. So you'll have to tell authors that all timing functions operate on a subset of properties except that one?!
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  80. # [03:40] <TabAtkins_> leaverou: Yes. All other timing functions operate on "animatable" properties only. 'discrete' operates on all of them, because it doesn't actually animate them. ^_^
  81. # [03:41] <leaverou> TabAtkins_: but that's basically step-end
  82. # [03:41] <leaverou> except the restriction on how it operates
  83. # [03:42] <TabAtkins_> Yes, though we'll probably have a start and stop variant of 'discrete' as well.
  84. # [03:42] <leaverou> but changing step-start and step-end to operate on all properties would be more sensible and wouldn't make websites break
  85. # [03:42] <leaverou> as very few currently use it
  86. # [03:42] <TabAtkins_> If we do it quickly, maybe.
  87. # [03:43] <leaverou> TabAtkins_: even if the intention of changing it becomes public quickly, it's sufficient
  88. # [03:44] <leaverou> authors will be careful when using it
  89. # [03:44] <TabAtkins_> I doubt it. ^_^ People won't avoid relying on it just because we announce we'll change it in the future.
  90. # [03:46] <leaverou> it doesn't have a huge number of use cases as it currently stands anyway. Or at least I can't see them. I might be wrong, obviously.
  91. # [03:46] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: isherman: The way to achieve it in CSS is to hook the styling on a pseudo-element, so it's not overridden unless they do so explicitly.
  92. # [03:46] <TabAtkins_> This is how placeholder should be styled.
  93. # [03:47] <TabAtkins_> If the placeholder text is shown, the input generates a ::placeholder pseudo.
  94. # [03:47] <TabAtkins_> UA colors on ::placeholder than override author colors on input.
  95. # [03:47] <TabAtkins_> You can do the same with autofill - make an input generate an ::autofill pseudo when it's been autofilled.
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  98. # [05:03] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: I finished out the multi-line row case, so pull again if you're interested.
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The end :)