/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2012-05-23 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed May 23 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  18. # [01:50] <heycam> stearns, that dochub.io looks nice, thanks.
  19. # [01:53] <heycam> fantasai, so if Applies To is normative, and CSS says display applies to all elements, is SVG unable to make setting display:inline on, say, a <desc> element that is inside a <text> have no effect?
  20. # [02:09] <Liam> I bet they could if they tried hard enough, but why would you want to?
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  22. # [02:24] <heycam> Liam, it's just that's how the behaviour has been so far. we *could* make not-normally rendering elements become rendering somehow, but I'm not sure it's useful.
  23. # [02:25] <Liam> I just tend to hate weird exceptions to rules
  24. # [02:25] <Liam> although weird is admittedly subjectiv
  25. # [02:25] <Liam> e
  26. # [02:25] <heycam> I don
  27. # [02:26] <heycam> 't think there's any browser that currently will render the circle in: <svg><defs style="display:inline"><circle/></defs></svg>
  28. # [02:26] <heycam> maybe it should have been designed to from the beginning
  29. # [02:27] <Liam> probably nor, not any other SVG agent today, unless you give it an id and svg:use it
  30. # [02:27] <heycam> right
  31. # [02:27] <Liam> a case that HTML + CSS doesn't have
  32. # [02:27] <heycam> <defs> is pretty much a <g> that doesn't render and which you can't make render even with display:inline
  33. # [02:28] <Liam> I suppose it's like saying you want html:link or html:meta to render though
  34. # [02:28] <Liam> you can set the property but it won't do you much good
  35. # [02:29] <heycam> actually setting display on a <meta> worked for me when I was testing yesterday
  36. # [02:30] <Liam> it displayed in the document? awesme
  37. # [02:37] <heycam> ok I have one more question: I have a property (fill-opacity) which accepts any <number> but when it comes to render it clamps this value to the range [0, 1]. should this clamping be done as part of computing the value? or should it be at a later stage?
  38. # [02:37] <Liam> what do you want to happen when it inherits?
  39. # [02:39] <heycam> I guess I don't mind
  40. # [02:40] <Liam> (it seems that's the case where you might be able to test for the difference, but I'm no CSS world expert here :-) )
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  42. # [02:40] <heycam> do CSS Animations/Transitions work on computed values?
  43. # [02:41] <Liam> beats me, sylvaing might know ;)
  44. # [02:48] <heycam> seems the answer is yes
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  106. # [17:25] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/05/23-css-irc
  107. # [17:25] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
  108. # [17:25] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 43 minutes
  109. # [17:25] <glazou> rrsagent, make logs public
  110. # [17:25] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
  111. # [17:28] * sylvaing_away is now known as sylvaing
  112. # [17:30] <sylvaing> heycam, yes computed values
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  116. # [18:03] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  117. # [18:03] <Zakim> +plinss
  118. # [18:04] <Zakim> +??P18
  119. # [18:04] <glenn> zakim, ??p18 is me
  120. # [18:04] <Zakim> +glenn; got it
  121. # [18:05] <glazou> Zakim, code?
  122. # [18:05] <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), glazou
  123. # [18:05] <Zakim> +??P28
  124. # [18:05] <glazou> Zakim, ??P28 is me
  125. # [18:05] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
  126. # [18:05] <Zakim> + +1.206.324.aaaa
  127. # [18:06] <glazou> Zakim, aaaa is sylvaing
  128. # [18:06] <Zakim> +sylvaing; got it
  129. # [18:06] <Zakim> + +93550aabb
  130. # [18:07] <Zakim> +AndyS
  131. # [18:07] <glazou> Zakim, aabb is antonp
  132. # [18:07] <Zakim> +antonp; got it
  133. # [18:07] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@70.36.140.110)
  134. # [18:07] <Zakim> +??P37
  135. # [18:07] * Quits: SimonSapin (simon@82.232.219.95) (Ping timeout)
  136. # [18:07] <Zakim> + +1.619.846.aacc
  137. # [18:08] <Zakim> -AndyS
  138. # [18:08] <Zakim> +??P42
  139. # [18:08] <Zakim> +??P44
  140. # [18:08] <florianr> Zakim, I am ??P42
  141. # [18:08] <Zakim> +florianr; got it
  142. # [18:08] <Zakim> +??P46
  143. # [18:08] <jdaggett> zakim, ??p42 is me
  144. # [18:08] <Zakim> I already had ??P42 as florianr, jdaggett
  145. # [18:08] <plinss> zakim, aacc is hober
  146. # [18:09] <glazou> Zakim, mute florian
  147. # [18:09] * Joins: PhilCupp (pcupp@131.107.0.111)
  148. # [18:09] <glenn> 61* to mute
  149. # [18:09] <glazou> Zakim, mute florianr
  150. # [18:09] <Zakim> +hober; got it
  151. # [18:09] <glenn> oops 61# that is
  152. # [18:09] <glazou> Zakim, unmute florianr
  153. # [18:09] <jdaggett> i'm speaking...
  154. # [18:09] <jdaggett> ouch
  155. # [18:09] <Zakim> florianr should now be muted
  156. # [18:09] * Joins: JohnJansen (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  157. # [18:09] * Joins: smfr (smfr@173.228.90.246)
  158. # [18:09] <florianr> Zakim, I am ??P44
  159. # [18:09] <Zakim> +??P51
  160. # [18:09] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  161. # [18:09] <JohnJansen> Zakim, Microsoft has JohnJansen
  162. # [18:09] <Zakim> florianr was already muted, glazou
  163. # [18:09] <glazou> Zakim, you are soooo painful
  164. # [18:09] <Zakim> +Brian_Leroux
  165. # [18:10] <Zakim> florianr should no longer be muted
  166. # [18:10] <glazou> Zakim, you're soooo slow too
  167. # [18:10] <plinss> zakim, florianr is jdaggett
  168. # [18:10] <Zakim> +florianr; got it
  169. # [18:10] <Zakim> +JohnJansen; got it
  170. # [18:10] <Zakim> I don't understand 'you are soooo painful', glazou
  171. # [18:10] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
  172. # [18:10] <Zakim> I don't understand 'you're soooo slow too', glazou
  173. # [18:10] <Zakim> + +1.650.253.aadd
  174. # [18:10] * Joins: rbetts (rbetts@192.150.10.201)
  175. # [18:10] <glazou> Zakim, ??P44 is florianr
  176. # [18:10] <Zakim> +jdaggett; got it
  177. # [18:10] <Zakim> + +1.408.636.aaee
  178. # [18:10] * Joins: bradk (bradk@99.7.175.117)
  179. # [18:11] <smfr> Zakim, aaee is me
  180. # [18:11] * Zakim hears ??P46's hand up
  181. # [18:11] * Zakim sees ??P46 on the speaker queue
  182. # [18:11] <Zakim> I already had ??P44 as florianr.a, glazou
  183. # [18:11] <fantasai> Zakim, ??p46 is fantasai
  184. # [18:11] <Zakim> + +1.415.766.aaff
  185. # [18:11] * Joins: krit (krit@192.150.10.201)
  186. # [18:11] <dbaron> Zakim, aaff is dbaron
  187. # [18:11] <Zakim> +smfr; got it
  188. # [18:11] <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
  189. # [18:11] <Zakim> +dbaron; got it
  190. # [18:11] <plinss> zakim, who is on the phone?
  191. # [18:11] <fantasai> ack fantasai
  192. # [18:11] <Zakim> On the phone I see plinss, glenn, glazou, sylvaing, antonp, ??P37, hober, jdaggett, florianr.a, fantasai (muted), ??P51, [Microsoft], Brian_Leroux, [Microsoft.a], +1.650.253.aadd,
  193. # [18:11] <Zakim> ... smfr, dbaron
  194. # [18:11] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has JohnJansen
  195. # [18:12] <Zakim> + +1.650.275.aagg
  196. # [18:12] * sylvaing sometimes suspects Zakim is some poor dude in a North Korean gulag. 'You're punished. You will be Zakim for 3 days!" "NOOOOOOO"
  197. # [18:12] <smfr> glazou: i think you should suggest that zakim just work
  198. # [18:12] <bradk> Zakim, aagg is me
  199. # [18:12] * Zakim unmutes fantasai
  200. # [18:12] * Zakim sees ??P46 on the speaker queue
  201. # [18:12] * Joins: SteveZ (chatzilla@192.150.10.200)
  202. # [18:12] <Zakim> +SteveZ
  203. # [18:12] * Zakim hears +1.650.253.aadd's hand up
  204. # [18:13] * Zakim sees ??P46, +1.650.253.aadd on the speaker queue
  205. # [18:13] <Zakim> +bradk; got it
  206. # [18:13] * Joins: arron (arronei@166.147.93.220)
  207. # [18:13] <TabAtkins_> Zakim: aadd is me
  208. # [18:13] <TabAtkins_> Zakim, aadd is me.
  209. # [18:13] <Zakim> +TabAtkins_; got it
  210. # [18:14] <sylvaing> scribenick: sylvaing
  211. # [18:14] <sylvaing> glazou: other agenda items?
  212. # [18:14] <Zakim> +Bert
  213. # [18:14] <jdaggett> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012May/0630.html
  214. # [18:14] <glazou> syntax of font-family and reserved keywords
  215. # [18:15] <sylvaing> Topic: font-family syntax and reserved keywords
  216. # [18:15] <jdaggett> font-family: [[<family-name> | <generic-family>] [, <family-name>| <generic-family>]* ] | inherit
  217. # [18:15] <jdaggett> <family-name> == [ <string> | ident+ ]
  218. # [18:15] <jdaggett> <generic-family> == [ sans-serif | serif | cursive | fantasy | monospace ]
  219. # [18:15] <Zakim> + +1.253.307.aahh
  220. # [18:15] <sylvaing> jdaggett: there is a slight ambiguity in the current grammar for font-family names
  221. # [18:15] <arron> Zakim: aahh is me
  222. # [18:15] <sylvaing> jdaggett: in the current grammar reserved keywords can be matched either as keywords or a sequence of identifiers
  223. # [18:15] <jdaggett> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/fonts.html#font-family-prop
  224. # [18:16] * Quits: Ms2ger (Ms2ger@91.181.9.130) (Ping timeout)
  225. # [18:16] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
  226. # [18:16] <Zakim> -??P51
  227. # [18:16] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 21 (59%), glazou (10%), antonp (19%), jdaggett (66%)
  228. # [18:16] * Joins: Ms2ger (Ms2ger@81.242.169.27)
  229. # [18:16] <sylvaing> jadaggett: in the paragraph linked above, keywords are required to be quoted to match the family name type
  230. # [18:16] * dbaron Zakim, mute 21
  231. # [18:16] * Zakim sorry, dbaron, I do not know which phone connection belongs to 21
  232. # [18:16] <sylvaing> s/jadaggett/jdaggett
  233. # [18:17] <Zakim> +??P51
  234. # [18:17] <sylvaing> jdaggett: so if you have an unquoted font name that includes inherit or initial it would have to be dropped
  235. # [18:17] <glenn> zakim, who's here?
  236. # [18:17] <Zakim> On the phone I see plinss, glenn, glazou, sylvaing, antonp, ??P37, hober, jdaggett, florianr.a, fantasai, [Microsoft], Brian_Leroux, [Microsoft.a], TabAtkins_, smfr, dbaron, bradk,
  237. # [18:17] <Zakim> ... SteveZ, Bert, +1.253.307.aahh, ??P51
  238. # [18:17] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has JohnJansen
  239. # [18:17] <Zakim> On IRC I see Ms2ger, arron, SteveZ, krit, bradk, rbetts, smfr, JohnJansen, PhilCupp, dbaron, antonp, arno, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, miketaylr, jdaggett, florianr, drublic, tantek,
  240. # [18:17] <Zakim> ... arronei, kennyluck, Liam, dglazkov, glenn, ed, stearns, Hixie, trackbot, heycam|away, isherman, fantasai, hober, logbot, shepazu, krijnh, Bert, TabAtkins_, paul___irish,
  241. # [18:17] <Zakim> ... decadance, gsnedders, CSSWG_LogBot, vhardy, sylvaing, plinss, alexmog, shans
  242. # [18:17] <sylvaing> jdaggett: there is some confusion across browsers. foo inherit can be valid while inherit foo might not be (or vice-versa)
  243. # [18:18] <glazou> WHO IS 21 ??? PLEASE MUTE YOURSELF
  244. # [18:18] <sylvaing> jdaggett: I propose we tweak the grammar and change the prose
  245. # [18:18] <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
  246. # [18:18] <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: jdaggett (48%)
  247. # [18:18] <glazou> sigh
  248. # [18:18] <sylvaing> jdaggett: we should allow names like 'inherit foo' but inherit, foo would be invalid
  249. # [18:19] <sylvaing> florian: I haven't looked at your grammar change but I'm comfortable allowing names such as 'inherit foo'
  250. # [18:19] <sylvaing> tabatkins: I'm ok with that as well
  251. # [18:19] <Zakim> -??P37
  252. # [18:20] <sylvaing> jdaggett: anyone else has objections?
  253. # [18:20] <Zakim> +??P0
  254. # [18:20] <sylvaing> jdaggett: one change involves fixing the syntax
  255. # [18:20] <sylvaing> jdaggett: second change is a rewording
  256. # [18:21] <sylvaing> jdaggett: both for the CSS2.1 errata
  257. # [18:21] <jdaggett> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012May/0630.html
  258. # [18:21] <sylvaing> (both changes described in the post linked above)
  259. # [18:21] <sylvaing> Zakim, mute ??P21
  260. # [18:21] <Zakim> sorry, sylvaing, I do not know which phone connection belongs to ??P21
  261. # [18:21] <fantasai> s/are not allowed to/do not/
  262. # [18:22] <fantasai> otherwise, it's ok
  263. # [18:22] <bradk> reserved keyword if separated by comma, not if separated with space. Unless quoted.
  264. # [18:22] <glazou> slow down antonp
  265. # [18:23] <Bert> (I proposed a note as an alternative to jdaggett's text, maybe that addresses Anton's concern?)
  266. # [18:24] <glazou> Bert: please copy here ?
  267. # [18:24] * sylvaing is not keeping up with this low level discussion
  268. # [18:24] <Zakim> -hober
  269. # [18:24] <Zakim> +[Apple]
  270. # [18:24] <hober> Zakim, Apple has hober
  271. # [18:24] <Zakim> +hober; got it
  272. # [18:25] <Bert> (My proposed note: "Note that 'font-family: Times, inherit' is therefore an invalid declaration, because 'inherit' in that position can neither be a valid keyword nor a valid font family name.")
  273. # [18:25] <sylvaing> jdaggett: this is not the best language. I'm only trying to make the most important change i.e. identify initial, inherit and default as not being magic family names
  274. # [18:25] <sylvaing> dbaron: I just realized we want unquoted default inherit and initial to not match <family-name>
  275. # [18:25] <sylvaing> dbaron: but I'm not sure the proposed language says that
  276. # [18:26] <sylvaing> glazou: are folks ok with the change, modulo final language?
  277. # [18:27] <sylvaing> RESOLVED: John's proposal to resolve the issue is accepted.
  278. # [18:27] <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/topics?datasrt=&dataflt[]=spec%3Dcss3-flexbox
  279. # [18:27] <sylvaing> ACTION on jdaggett to finalize errata language
  280. # [18:27] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  281. # [18:27] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - on
  282. # [18:27] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/topics
  283. # [18:27] <sylvaing> topic: flexbox
  284. # [18:27] <sylvaing> tabatkins: we must resolve naming issues first so as to freeze the API
  285. # [18:27] <glazou> ACTION jdaggett finalize errata language for font-family and keywords
  286. # [18:27] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  287. # [18:27] <trackbot> Created ACTION-474 - Finalize errata language for font-family and keywords [on John Daggett - due 2012-05-30].
  288. # [18:28] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/topics/alignment-names
  289. # [18:28] <TabAtkins_> http://wiki.csswg.org/topics/alignment-names
  290. # [18:28] <sylvaing> tabatkins: first renaming alignment properties to generic names
  291. # [18:28] <sylvaing> tabatkins: this derives from fantasai's css3-align proposal
  292. # [18:28] <sylvaing> tabatkins: I'm ok with that
  293. # [18:28] <sylvaing> fantasai: we already have a resolution on this
  294. # [18:28] <sylvaing> tabatkins: let the bikeshedding begin
  295. # [18:29] <sylvaing> fantasai: do we prefer justify-items or justify-default?
  296. # [18:30] <sylvaing> fantasai: a lot of people thought default was really vague so let's drop it
  297. # [18:30] <sylvaing> szilles: what does items mean?
  298. # [18:30] <dbaron> I actually like default-*
  299. # [18:30] <sylvaing> tabatkins: it is the default alignment for flex items
  300. # [18:30] <sylvaing> szilles: so why is default a bad choice?
  301. # [18:31] <sylvaing> tabatkins: it's not clear what is being defaulted
  302. # [18:31] * sylvaing thinks justify-all-the-things would be fine
  303. # [18:32] <sylvaing> pcupp: in grid layout we operate on items just like flexbox does on flexbox items
  304. # [18:32] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.aa]
  305. # [18:33] <Zakim> -??P0
  306. # [18:34] <fantasai> pcupp: I don't see the use case for having the item-alignment property, why not style the elements directly
  307. # [18:34] <fantasai> Tab: anonymous items, and it's just easier
  308. # [18:34] * glazou wonders if discussing names if the best use of conf call time...
  309. # [18:34] <glazou> s/if the best/is the best
  310. # [18:34] <fantasai> pcupp: Anonymous content seems more of an error case than something intentional
  311. # [18:35] <dbaron> Was there a reason "child" wasn't considered as an alternative to "item" or "default"?
  312. # [18:35] <sylvaing> glazou: any objection?
  313. # [18:35] <fantasai> dbaron, grid items it's not the child always
  314. # [18:37] <dbaron> RESOLUTION: Eliminate the choice default-* (as opposed to item-*)
  315. # [18:37] <sylvaing> RESOLVED: eliminate default as a naming option
  316. # [18:37] * Joins: Rossen (Rossen@131.107.0.119)
  317. # [18:37] <florianr> http://wiki.csswg.org/topics/alignment-names
  318. # [18:38] * sylvaing wonders what awful thing he did to minute a naming bikeshed
  319. # [18:39] <glazou> Zakim, who is on the phone?
  320. # [18:39] <Zakim> On the phone I see plinss, glenn, glazou, sylvaing, antonp, jdaggett, florianr.a, fantasai, [Microsoft], Brian_Leroux, [Microsoft.a], TabAtkins_, smfr, dbaron, bradk, SteveZ, Bert,
  321. # [18:39] <sylvaing> straw poll
  322. # [18:39] <Zakim> ... +1.253.307.aahh, ??P51, [Apple], [Microsoft.aa]
  323. # [18:39] <Zakim> [Apple] has hober
  324. # [18:39] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has JohnJansen
  325. # [18:39] <sylvaing> plinss: abstain
  326. # [18:39] <sylvaing> glenn: 2
  327. # [18:39] <sylvaing> glazou: abstain
  328. # [18:39] <sylvaing> sylvaing: abstain
  329. # [18:39] <sylvaing> antonp: 2,4
  330. # [18:39] <sylvaing> jdaggett: abstain
  331. # [18:39] <sylvaing> florian: 5
  332. # [18:40] <sylvaing> rossen: 4
  333. # [18:40] <rbetts> sorry - i'm also on the call, didn't notice you hadn't identified me: abstain
  334. # [18:40] <sylvaing> johnjansen: 4
  335. # [18:40] <sylvaing> arronei: 4
  336. # [18:40] <sylvaing> bradk: 5
  337. # [18:40] <sylvaing> tabatkins: 4,2
  338. # [18:40] <Rossen> Zakim, [Microsoft.aa] is me
  339. # [18:40] <Zakim> +Rossen; got it
  340. # [18:40] <sylvaing> smfr: 4
  341. # [18:40] <dbaron> dbaron: my preference order is 2 [big gap here] 4 3 5
  342. # [18:40] <fantasai> (smfr doesn't like term 'stack')
  343. # [18:40] <sylvaing> szilles: 2 or 4. do not like 5 (smfr doesn't either)
  344. # [18:41] <sylvaing> bert: abstain
  345. # [18:41] <Zakim> -[Apple]
  346. # [18:41] <Ms2ger> Zakim, [Microsoft] also has rbetts
  347. # [18:41] <bradk> I don't like "justify" to mean "align x"
  348. # [18:41] <Zakim> +rbetts; got it
  349. # [18:41] <fantasai> prefer 4, *dislike* 1
  350. # [18:41] <sylvaing> fantasai: my favorite is 4. I'm OK with anything that is not 1
  351. # [18:41] <hober> hober: abstain
  352. # [18:41] <sylvaing> RESOLVED: option 4
  353. # [18:41] <Zakim> +[Apple]
  354. # [18:41] <hober> Zakim, Apple has hober
  355. # [18:42] <Zakim> +hober; got it
  356. # [18:42] <sylvaing> pcupp: and the intent is to apply those names to grid as well
  357. # [18:42] <sylvaing> tabatkins: yes
  358. # [18:42] <sylvaing> fantasai: that was our resolution as the f2f
  359. # [18:42] <TabAtkins_> http://wiki.csswg.org/topics/justification-keywords
  360. # [18:42] * Joins: jet (jet@67.169.43.128)
  361. # [18:42] <sylvaing> tabatkins: for flex-pack properties there are two values that mean 'spread the items out'
  362. # [18:43] <sylvaing> tabatkins: in one case the items at either end are flush, in the other they're evenly distributed in the container
  363. # [18:43] <sylvaing> tabatkins: justify for flushing, distribute for even spacing
  364. # [18:44] <sylvaing> glazou: why don't we use the names you have there?
  365. # [18:44] <sylvaing> glazou: that's readable
  366. # [18:44] * sylvaing +1 to glazou
  367. # [18:44] <rbetts> +1 to glazou
  368. # [18:44] <TabAtkins_> glazou: edges-flush and equal-margins
  369. # [18:44] <sylvaing> antonp: is there any reason why equal spacing is not part of flexbox
  370. # [18:45] <sylvaing> fantasai: no one asked for it
  371. # [18:45] <sylvaing> inside-flush?
  372. # [18:46] <sylvaing> szilles: distribute-items/distribute-space?
  373. # [18:46] <sylvaing> szilles: based on ruby align
  374. # [18:46] <fantasai> justify-content: no-margins ????
  375. # [18:46] <sylvaing> szilles: distribute-space maps to equal-margins
  376. # [18:47] <bradk> \me thinks that 'justify' should be a value that means what it does in 'text-align'. Confusing to have it as alignment property name.
  377. # [18:47] <glazou> glazou: no-margins?
  378. # [18:47] * smfr has to go, sorry
  379. # [18:47] <Zakim> -smfr
  380. # [18:47] * bradk thinks that 'justify' should be a value that means what it does in 'text-align'. Confusing to have it as alignment property name.
  381. # [18:47] * Quits: smfr (smfr@173.228.90.246) (Quit: smfr)
  382. # [18:48] <sylvaing> tabatkins: my objection is that this really aligns margin boxes i.e. it distributes space between the margins
  383. # [18:49] <antonp> \me likes szilles' way of looking at it
  384. # [18:49] <Rossen> justify-content: between | spread
  385. # [18:49] <sylvaing> fill/distribute?
  386. # [18:50] <sylvaing> florian: if we can't agree on anything better than what's there, let's keep it
  387. # [18:50] <sylvaing> rossen: +1
  388. # [18:51] <sylvaing> dbaron: I think it's reasonable to give long names to those that add space at the edges since it's something we haven't had before
  389. # [18:52] <sylvaing> tabatkins: it's a common usage pattern done with margins so far
  390. # [18:52] <fantasai> distribute-betwee | distribute-around
  391. # [18:52] <fantasai> ?
  392. # [18:53] <sylvaing> glazou: this is difficult to straw-poll because we have discussed more proposals than what's on the wiki
  393. # [18:53] <sylvaing> szilles: can we straw poll between 0 or something new?
  394. # [18:53] <fantasai> space-between | space-around
  395. # [18:53] <sylvaing> fantasai: how about distribute-between/distribute-around?
  396. # [18:54] <Rossen> Like!
  397. # [18:54] <sylvaing> dbaron: I'm confused as to whether you're trying to assign 2 or 3 names
  398. # [18:54] <rbetts> makes sense to me
  399. # [18:54] <sylvaing> tabatkins: only two, we don't include the full space on each side scenario
  400. # [18:54] <SteveZ> +1 for space-between and space-around
  401. # [18:55] <sylvaing> stretch/distribute
  402. # [18:55] <sylvaing> fill-stretch/distribute?
  403. # [18:56] <fantasai> space-between | space-around | space-even
  404. # [18:57] <fantasai> evenly
  405. # [18:57] <jdaggett> proposed wording for CSS 2.1 errata related to unquoted font family names:
  406. # [18:57] <jdaggett> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012May/0852.html
  407. # [18:58] <sylvaing> glazou: straw poll between option 0 and space-around/space-between
  408. # [18:58] <sylvaing> plinss: abstain
  409. # [18:58] <sylvaing> glazou: 0
  410. # [18:58] <sylvaing> sylvaing: 0
  411. # [18:58] <sylvaing> antonp: 1
  412. # [18:58] <sylvaing> jdaggett: abstain
  413. # [18:58] <glenn> sorry, was on mute, i'll go with 0
  414. # [18:58] <sylvaing> florian: abstain
  415. # [18:58] <arron> arronei: abstain
  416. # [18:58] <sylvaing> fantasai: 1
  417. # [18:58] <sylvaing> rossen: 0 then 1
  418. # [18:58] <sylvaing> johnjansen: 0
  419. # [18:59] <sylvaing> tabatkins: 1
  420. # [18:59] <dbaron> dbaron: abstain (though I might prefer splitting the difference, justify/space-?)
  421. # [18:59] <sylvaing> bradk: 0
  422. # [18:59] <sylvaing> szilles: 1
  423. # [18:59] <sylvaing> bert: 1
  424. # [18:59] <rbetts> 1
  425. # [18:59] <hober> hober: abstain
  426. # [19:00] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/topics/css3-flexbox-rename-flex-order
  427. # [19:00] <TabAtkins_> http://wiki.csswg.org/topics/css3-flexbox-rename-flex-order
  428. # [19:00] <sylvaing> RESOLVED: use space-between/space-around instead of justify/distribute
  429. # [19:00] <sylvaing> tabatkins: next, renaming the flex-order property
  430. # [19:01] <sylvaing> tabatkins: grid layout's auto placement is similar to flexbox's algorithm so we think there should be a common property: display-order
  431. # [19:01] <sylvaing> fantasai: also, this property has nothing to do with flexing
  432. # [19:01] <sylvaing> dbaron: this may be a bit confusing given the display property and display-inside/display-outside
  433. # [19:01] <sylvaing> dbaron: box-order?
  434. # [19:02] <sylvaing> szilles: this reorder the items so item-order?
  435. # [19:02] <sylvaing> bradk: just order!
  436. # [19:02] <dbaron> dbaron: item-order bad since we just made "item" something that applies to children rather than self
  437. # [19:03] <sylvaing> szilles: I'm concerned about box-order if this property is to apply to region flows
  438. # [19:03] <sylvaing> rossen: when you have multiple boxes for elements, do all the boxes have the same order
  439. # [19:03] <sylvaing> fantasai: it would work like z-index
  440. # [19:04] <glazou> Zakim, who is on the phone ?
  441. # [19:04] <Zakim> On the phone I see plinss, glenn, glazou, sylvaing, antonp, jdaggett, florianr.a, fantasai, [Microsoft], Brian_Leroux, [Microsoft.a], TabAtkins_, dbaron, bradk, SteveZ, Bert,
  442. # [19:04] <Zakim> ... +1.253.307.aahh, ??P51, Rossen, [Apple]
  443. # [19:04] <Zakim> [Apple] has hober
  444. # [19:04] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has JohnJansen, rbetts
  445. # [19:04] <rbetts> +1 to just "order" as proposal D
  446. # [19:04] <sylvaing> pcupp: what other ordering is affected? if you re-order input element does the tab order move around?
  447. # [19:05] <sylvaing> tabatkins: at the moment no, tab order comes from document order
  448. # [19:05] <sylvaing> straw poll
  449. # [19:05] <sylvaing> plinss: D, then B
  450. # [19:05] <sylvaing> glazou: D, then B
  451. # [19:05] <sylvaing> sylvaing: abstain
  452. # [19:05] <sylvaing> antonp: not A
  453. # [19:06] <sylvaing> jdaggett: abstain
  454. # [19:06] <glenn> abstain
  455. # [19:06] <sylvaing> florian: B or D, not A
  456. # [19:06] <fantasai> fantasai: not A
  457. # [19:06] <sylvaing> johnjansen: abstain
  458. # [19:06] <sylvaing> rossen: B
  459. # [19:06] <arron> arronei: abstain
  460. # [19:07] <dbaron> dbaron: D, then B
  461. # [19:07] <sylvaing> tabatkins: D, C, B
  462. # [19:07] <sylvaing> bradk: D then B
  463. # [19:07] <sylvaing> szilles: D, C, B
  464. # [19:07] <sylvaing> bert: abstain
  465. # [19:07] <rbetts> D
  466. # [19:07] <sylvaing> hober: abstain
  467. # [19:07] <glenn> what is 'D' exactly; the above IRC doesn't indicate
  468. # [19:07] <Bert> (Steven Pemberton once proposed a 'something-order' property to reorder children, independent of the display model, like a generic transformation.)
  469. # [19:07] <fantasai> 'order'
  470. # [19:08] <florianr> D is just "order"
  471. # [19:08] <glenn> D: 'order'
  472. # [19:08] <glenn> thanks
  473. # [19:08] <sylvaing> RESOLVED: rename flex-order to order
  474. # [19:08] <antonp> D both pleases and scares me
  475. # [19:08] <TabAtkins_> http://wiki.csswg.org/topics/start-end-before-after-align
  476. # [19:09] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  477. # [19:09] <Zakim> -[Apple]
  478. # [19:09] <Zakim> -antonp
  479. # [19:09] <Zakim> -TabAtkins_
  480. # [19:09] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
  481. # [19:09] * Quits: JohnJansen (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
  482. # [19:09] <Zakim> -jdaggett
  483. # [19:09] <Zakim> - +1.253.307.aahh
  484. # [19:09] <glazou> wow
  485. # [19:09] <Zakim> -Rossen
  486. # [19:09] * Quits: PhilCupp (pcupp@131.107.0.111) (Quit: PhilCupp)
  487. # [19:09] <Zakim> -florianr.a
  488. # [19:09] <Zakim> -Brian_Leroux
  489. # [19:09] <Zakim> -sylvaing
  490. # [19:09] <Zakim> -dbaron
  491. # [19:09] <Zakim> -fantasai
  492. # [19:09] <Zakim> -plinss
  493. # [19:09] <Zakim> -glazou
  494. # [19:09] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  495. # [19:09] * Quits: bradk (bradk@99.7.175.117) (Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/ )
  496. # [19:09] * Quits: arron (arronei@166.147.93.220) (Quit: Colloquy for iPhone)
  497. # [19:09] <Zakim> -glenn
  498. # [19:09] <Zakim> -Bert
  499. # [19:09] <Zakim> -??P51
  500. # [19:09] <Zakim> -bradk
  501. # [19:09] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  502. # [19:09] <Zakim> Attendees were plinss, glenn, glazou, +1.206.324.aaaa, sylvaing, +93550aabb, AndyS, antonp, +1.619.846.aacc, hober, Brian_Leroux, JohnJansen, [Microsoft], +1.650.253.aadd,
  503. # [19:09] <TabAtkins_> I am honestly surprised we got through three of the naming issues in 40 minutes.
  504. # [19:09] <Zakim> ... jdaggett, +1.408.636.aaee, +1.415.766.aaff, smfr, fantasai, dbaron, +1.650.275.aagg, SteveZ, bradk, TabAtkins_, Bert, +1.253.307.aahh, Rossen, rbetts
  505. # [19:09] <glazou> honestly, that was not an easy call to manage, and I'm rather glad we came to resolutions
  506. # [19:10] <florianr> If we can even be efficient on bikeshedding, there is nothing that can resist us.
  507. # [19:10] <TabAtkins_> florianr: Next, THE WORLD.
  508. # [19:10] <florianr> I was thinking of prefixes </troll>
  509. # [19:10] <fantasai> glazou: congrats! That went better than I expected :)
  510. # [19:10] * glazou slaps florianr with a wet trout
  511. # [19:10] <florianr> :D
  512. # [19:10] <fantasai> rofl
  513. # [19:11] <glazou> ok, have to run, bye people
  514. # [19:11] <florianr> bye
  515. # [19:11] * Quits: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19) (Quit: glazou)
  516. # [19:13] * Quits: rbetts (rbetts@192.150.10.201) (Quit: rbetts)
  517. # [19:14] <sylvaing> i don't understand any of the new names. but i'm sure it'll make sense once there is a -webkit in front of it. right?
  518. # [19:14] <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: It always does, yeah.
  519. # [19:14] <TabAtkins_> -webkit-order: IN-FRONT-OF-EVERYONE-ELSE
  520. # [19:15] <sylvaing> there ought to be a be a -webkit-webkit property that takes a malkovich-malkovich value
  521. # [19:16] <hober> sylvaing: oh, there is one, but we haven't announced it on the webkit blog
  522. # [19:16] <hober> sylvaing: we decided to follow opera and also implement the -webkit prefix, so we'll be supporting -webkit-webkit-transform etc.
  523. # [19:16] <sylvaing> LOL
  524. # [19:17] <dbaron> hober, that should be -webkit--webkit-transform
  525. # [19:17] * Quits: arno (arno@192.150.10.201) (Quit: Leaving.)
  526. # [19:17] <TabAtkins_> hahaha
  527. # [19:17] <hober> dbaron: oh, indeed. could you file a b.w.o bug on that? :)
  528. # [19:17] * Quits: jet (jet@67.169.43.128) (Quit: jet)
  529. # [19:20] <sylvaing> I never want to minute a naming bikeshed again. ever.
  530. # [19:20] <TabAtkins_> Minute one of my presentations sometime. I rival TimBL in speaking speed if I'm not careful.
  531. # [19:20] * Joins: arno (arno@192.150.10.201)
  532. # [19:20] <sylvaing> there is something about naming that makes everyone goes twice as fast. well, except anton. he can't really double his speed
  533. # [19:20] <sylvaing> tabatkins: seen one or two of your presentations on videos. i don't think you're even close to timbl....
  534. # [19:20] <sylvaing> tabatkins: sure aren't slow either
  535. # [19:23] <Liam> although at the AC meeting last week timbl did really well at speaking slowly
  536. # [19:24] <sylvaing> amazing thing is to listen to the screen reader of someone who uses it every day: it can be even faster than timbl
  537. # [19:24] <Liam> it's not rude to interrupt a text reader program :)
  538. # [19:24] <TabAtkins_> Luckily our TGIF presentations can be played at double-speed. Still understandable, but much faster.
  539. # [19:24] <TabAtkins_> When you're just listening, very fast speaking is useful.
  540. # [19:26] <Ms2ger> Liam, that hurt my feelings :(
  541. # [19:27] <TabAtkins_> hahaha I KNOW IT
  542. # [19:27] <TabAtkins_> s/KNOW/KNEW/
  543. # [19:27] <Ms2ger> Well, "I know it" wasn't really an accomplishment, was it?
  544. # [19:29] * Liam apologises :)
  545. # [19:32] <sylvaing> true, watched the latest coursera course mostly at double speed
  546. # [19:32] * Joins: myakura (myakura@122.130.129.42)
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  548. # [19:34] * Quits: Rossen (Rossen@131.107.0.119) (Quit: Rossen)
  549. # [19:35] * Quits: myakura (myakura@122.130.129.42) (Ping timeout)
  550. # [19:35] * Joins: rbetts (rbetts@192.150.10.201)
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  560. # [20:05] * fantasai has to agree with sylvaing, Tab is nowhere near 1tbl
  561. # [20:05] <fantasai> Phil Cupp, on the other hand, has gotten very close sometimes
  562. # [20:10] <tantek> oh look I missed a renaming survey. darn. ;)
  563. # [20:11] <sylvaing> tank, when is IndieBikeshedCamp?
  564. # [20:11] <sylvaing> fantasai: yes, though I think antonp comes closest
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  567. # [20:12] <sylvaing> fantasai: I can't exactly recall who it was but at some point in Paris he rephrased someone's question and the expression on their face was "omg I can't keep up with my own question"
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  572. # [20:38] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: Do you think Flexbox should keep the full definitions of the relevant alignment properties, or just normatively reference Box Alignment and just define the property's effects on flex containers?
  573. # [20:38] <Ms2ger> Latter
  574. # [20:38] <Ms2ger> Though I'm not fantasai
  575. # [20:42] <kennyluck> lol
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  581. # [21:07] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
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  583. # [21:10] <tantek> sylvaing - you were asking about IndieWebCamp.com perhaps? 2012-06-30..07-01 in Portland, OR.
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  601. # [22:24] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: former
  602. # [22:25] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: keep the definitions, just rename everything
  603. # [22:25] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: css3-align currently defers to Flexbox / Grid to define the layout impact of its values anyway
  604. # [22:25] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: and I think you need that if you want those properties to go to CR asap
  605. # [22:26] * fantasai -> flight
  606. # [22:26] <fantasai> laters~
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  609. # [22:29] <TabAtkins_> The "delay CR" thing was what was worrying me, since Box Alignment is still ED.
  610. # [22:29] <TabAtkins_> So I'll do that.
  611. # [22:30] <fantasai> multicol did a similar thing with the break properties
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  614. # [22:32] <fantasai> make sure you add a note that these properties will soon apply to other layout models so authors dont apply them indiscriminately
  615. # [22:33] <fantasai> and specify that until superseded, they only apply to flexboxen
  616. # [22:33] <TabAtkins_> Yus, already have a note to that effect written down.
  617. # [22:34] <fantasai> you can link to css3-align, it should go to fpwd when flexbox goed to lc
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  629. # [23:19] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: Hehe, you did a pretty sloppy search-and-replace on Box Alignment. ^_^
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  642. # Session Close: Thu May 24 00:00:00 2012

The end :)