/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2012-05-30 / end

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  69. # [16:31] <ChrisL2> sylvain, we are missing you on the font wg call
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  77. # [17:24] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/05/30-css-irc
  78. # [17:24] <glazou> Zakim, this wille be Style
  79. # [17:24] <Zakim> I don't understand 'this wille be Style', glazou
  80. # [17:24] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
  81. # [17:24] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 43 minutes
  82. # [17:24] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
  83. # [17:24] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
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  87. # [17:58] * sylvaing_away is now known as sylvaing
  88. # [18:01] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  89. # [18:01] <Zakim> +fantasai
  90. # [18:02] <Zakim> +??P35
  91. # [18:02] <florianr> Zakim, I am ??P35
  92. # [18:02] <Zakim> +florianr; got it
  93. # [18:03] <Zakim> +plinss
  94. # [18:04] * Joins: PhilCupp (pcupp@131.107.0.85)
  95. # [18:05] <sylvaing> ChrisL2, :( sorry
  96. # [18:05] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  97. # [18:05] <Zakim> +??P44
  98. # [18:05] <sylvaing> Zakim, Microsoft has sylvaing
  99. # [18:05] <Zakim> +sylvaing; got it
  100. # [18:05] * Joins: rbetts (rbetts@192.150.10.201)
  101. # [18:05] <sylvaing> Zakim, Microsoft almost completely has sylvaing
  102. # [18:05] <Zakim> I don't understand you, sylvaing
  103. # [18:06] <Zakim> + +1.339.524.9.aaaa
  104. # [18:06] <ChrisL2> zakim, aaaa is me
  105. # [18:06] <Zakim> +ChrisL2; got it
  106. # [18:07] <Zakim> +hober
  107. # [18:07] <ChrisL2> and zakim, you messed up the country code again
  108. # [18:07] * Joins: smfr (smfr@173.228.90.229)
  109. # [18:07] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
  110. # [18:07] <Zakim> +??P49
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  112. # [18:07] <glenn> zakim, ??p49 is me
  113. # [18:07] <Zakim> +glenn; got it
  114. # [18:07] * Joins: oyvind (oyvinds@213.236.208.22)
  115. # [18:07] <Zakim> +Brian_Leroux
  116. # [18:07] <Zakim> -??P44
  117. # [18:07] <Zakim> +smfr
  118. # [18:08] <glenn> zakim, who's on the phone?
  119. # [18:08] <Zakim> On the phone I see fantasai, florianr, plinss, [Microsoft], ChrisL2, hober, [Microsoft.a], glenn (muted), Brian_Leroux, smfr
  120. # [18:08] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has sylvaing
  121. # [18:08] <Zakim> +??P44
  122. # [18:08] <Zakim> +dbaron
  123. # [18:08] <rbetts> just joined the call as well
  124. # [18:08] <PhilCupp> Zakim, Microsoft.a is me
  125. # [18:08] <Zakim> +PhilCupp; got it
  126. # [18:08] <dbaron> wow, Zakim is not laggy today
  127. # [18:08] <Zakim> +??P57
  128. # [18:09] <Zakim> + +1.425.246.aabb
  129. # [18:09] <alexmog_> zakim, aabb is me
  130. # [18:09] <Zakim> +alexmog_; got it
  131. # [18:09] <glazou> not laggy but I am unable to join...
  132. # [18:10] * Joins: nimbu (Adium@192.150.10.200)
  133. # [18:10] <Zakim> +TabAtkins_
  134. # [18:10] <alexmog_> zakim, why don't you remember my cell phone number already?
  135. # [18:10] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, alexmog_.
  136. # [18:10] <Zakim> +??P69
  137. # [18:10] <glazou> Zakim, ??P69 is me
  138. # [18:10] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
  139. # [18:10] <dbaron> Zakim, ??P44 is rbetts
  140. # [18:10] <Zakim> +rbetts; got it
  141. # [18:10] <Zakim> +??P76
  142. # [18:10] <dbaron> Zakim, who is on the phone?
  143. # [18:10] <Zakim> On the phone I see fantasai, florianr, plinss, [Microsoft], ChrisL2, hober, PhilCupp, glenn (muted), Brian_Leroux, smfr, rbetts, dbaron, ??P57, alexmog_, TabAtkins_, glazou, ??P76
  144. # [18:10] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has sylvaing
  145. # [18:10] <glazou> who is Brian Leroux ???
  146. # [18:11] <Zakim> +Bert
  147. # [18:11] <krit> Zakim, ??P76 is me
  148. # [18:11] <Zakim> +krit; got it
  149. # [18:11] * Joins: JohnJansen (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  150. # [18:12] <TabAtkins> ScribeNick: TabAtkins `
  151. # [18:12] <TabAtkins> ScribeNick: TabAtkins
  152. # [18:12] <TabAtkins> plinss: Any last minute agenda additions?
  153. # [18:12] <TabAtkins> Topic: Fullscreen spec
  154. # [18:12] <TabAtkins> plinss: Webapps wants to publish a FPWD.
  155. # [18:12] <TabAtkins> plinss: This is a joint deliverable with CSS, so we need to sign off on it as well.
  156. # [18:12] <TabAtkins> fantasai: There's a few minor things to fix up, but overall I think it's fine.
  157. # [18:12] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
  158. # [18:13] <TabAtkins> ChrisL2: I agree with some of the things that Daniel talked about, but think it's okay to publish.
  159. # [18:13] <JohnJansen> Zakim, Microsoft has JohnJansen
  160. # [18:13] <Zakim> +JohnJansen; got it
  161. # [18:13] <glazou> http://www.w3.org/mid/4FC630E6.1050406@disruptive-innovations.com
  162. # [18:13] <TabAtkins> ChrisL2: We should probably triage between things that need to be addressed before publihsing and what can wait until after.
  163. # [18:13] <TabAtkins> glazou: Main comments are #2 and #4.
  164. # [18:13] <TabAtkins> glazou: I think the sectiona bout ::backdrop is unclear.
  165. # [18:13] <tantek> good morning
  166. # [18:14] <TabAtkins> glazou: I think fantasai gave a good explanation of what it represents, but it needs a better expl in the spec.
  167. # [18:14] <TabAtkins> glazou: Second thing is the definition of "layer". I think it's pretty unclear.
  168. # [18:14] <TabAtkins> glazou: For example, I don't know what "Layer 10" is.
  169. # [18:14] * ChrisL2 hopes it goes to 11
  170. # [18:14] <TabAtkins> fantasai: It's referring to Appendix E, the painting order layer.
  171. # [18:14] <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/zindex.html#painting-order
  172. # [18:14] <TabAtkins> glazou: Okay, so it needs refs and hyperlinks. It's not understandable as it is.
  173. # [18:15] <TabAtkins> glazou: provided these clarifications are added, I'm okay with the document being published.
  174. # [18:15] <tantek> I can work with Anne to make the edits happen today
  175. # [18:15] <TabAtkins> florianr: Daniel, I'm surprised you're not calling for the WHATWG ref to be fixed.
  176. # [18:15] <Zakim> +SteveZ
  177. # [18:15] <fantasai> tantek, see also http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012May/1131.html
  178. # [18:15] <TabAtkins> glazou: It's important, but it doesn't need to be fixed now, and it's outside the scope fo the CSSWG comments.
  179. # [18:15] <ChrisL2> tantek, that is very helpful
  180. # [18:15] <Zakim> -hober
  181. # [18:15] <Zakim> +[Apple]
  182. # [18:16] <TabAtkins> glazou: We'll make the comment and see if the consortium agrees later.
  183. # [18:16] * Joins: Katie (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  184. # [18:16] <hober> Zakim, Apple has me
  185. # [18:16] <Zakim> +hober; got it
  186. # [18:16] <Zakim> +??P11
  187. # [18:16] <kojiishi> zakim, ??p11 is me
  188. # [18:16] <Zakim> +kojiishi; got it
  189. # [18:17] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.aa]
  190. # [18:17] <Katie> Zakim, [Microsoft.aa] has me
  191. # [18:17] <TabAtkins> [missing some minuting about WHATWG ref]
  192. # [18:17] <Zakim> +Katie; got it
  193. # [18:18] <fantasai> sylvaing: Is there any reason it needs to point to WHATWG version? If not, should point to W3C one.
  194. # [18:18] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: (doesn't see any reason to change the ref besides "We hate the WHATWG")
  195. # [18:18] <tantek> (still haven't gotten past the install javac step in http://wiki.csswg.org/tools/hg/install )
  196. # [18:18] <TabAtkins> 1. Update the ref to to W3C spec.
  197. # [18:18] <sylvaing> I don't see any reason to link to the WHATWG except 'we hate the W3C' :)
  198. # [18:18] <TabAtkins> 2. Update the text around ::backdrop to better explain what it's for.
  199. # [18:19] <TabAtkins> 3. Ref/link the talk about "Layer 10" and similar.
  200. # [18:19] <glazou> tantek: saw my email ?
  201. # [18:19] <tantek> glazou - yes
  202. # [18:19] <glazou> ok
  203. # [18:19] <tantek> most of that makes sense to me
  204. # [18:19] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012May/1131.html
  205. # [18:19] <TabAtkins> 4. Fix computation of the 'position' property ('center' doesn't exist yet)
  206. # [18:19] * tantek looks for a phone
  207. # [18:20] <TabAtkins> ChrisL2: One more change - in the SotD, it needs to point to both WGs and say that it's expliciatly a joint product.
  208. # [18:20] <tantek> the "Update the text around ::backdrop to better explain what it's for" is a bit vague
  209. # [18:20] <tantek> and seem so to require another review / re-evaluation before proceeding
  210. # [18:20] <glazou> tantek: for the time being, nothing is said about what _it is_
  211. # [18:20] * TabAtkins tantek: Suggestions welcome. That's roughly what Daniel's feedback was.
  212. # [18:20] <glazou> tantek: just say what it represents
  213. # [18:20] <Zakim> -Bert
  214. # [18:20] <tantek> would an additional 1-2 sentence description be sufficient?
  215. # [18:20] <ChrisL2> +1 to publish with those edits
  216. # [18:21] <TabAtkins> RESOLUTION: Support the publishing of Fullscreen provided the edits (in minutes) are made.
  217. # [18:21] <ChrisL2> rrsagent, here
  218. # [18:21] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2012/05/30-css-irc#T16-13-38
  219. # [18:21] <glazou> what ChrisL2 said :)
  220. # [18:21] <Zakim> +Bert
  221. # [18:22] <TabAtkins> florianr: What is happening with the future of this spec? Do we just count on tantek remembering to bring it by the WG sometimes?
  222. # [18:22] <ChrisL2> going forward we would expect to be more closely involved in creating the actual text
  223. # [18:22] <Zakim> + +1.206.390.aacc
  224. # [18:22] <TabAtkins> ChrisL2: I think we need closer involvement.
  225. # [18:22] <stearns> zakim, aacc is me
  226. # [18:22] <Zakim> +stearns; got it
  227. # [18:22] <tantek> florianr - what do you mean by "bring it by the WG" ?
  228. # [18:22] <TabAtkins> hober: How is this different than anything else?
  229. # [18:22] <tantek> you can just follow it on mercurial right?
  230. # [18:22] <glenn> i am also a member of both groups
  231. # [18:22] <TabAtkins> glazou: I think it's not difficult for tantek to just bring things by sometimes.
  232. # [18:22] <fantasai> tantek, I'm not going to watch your mecurial logs
  233. # [18:23] <tantek> fantasai - not *my* logs - just the spec
  234. # [18:23] <glazou> what fantasai said
  235. # [18:23] <tantek> if you care about a particular spec, watch its mercurial
  236. # [18:23] <glazou> tantek: no, you as editor, have responsibility to ping us
  237. # [18:23] <tantek> no need to spam everyone with delta emails
  238. # [18:23] <glazou> by _email_
  239. # [18:23] <tantek> glazou , citation?
  240. # [18:23] <fantasai> plinss: As editor, Tantek has responsibility to bring updates to the WG
  241. # [18:23] <glazou> re. mercurial
  242. # [18:23] <tantek> is that a request for a mercurial to email bot?
  243. # [18:23] <fantasai> no
  244. # [18:24] <tantek> I am not a bot
  245. # [18:24] <glazou> no, that's request to email us personnally
  246. # [18:24] <glazou> from you, not bots
  247. # [18:24] <fantasai> when there is something to discuss or review
  248. # [18:24] <tantek> denied
  249. # [18:24] <tantek> I am not going to email mercurial diffs
  250. # [18:24] <fantasai> nobody is asking you to do that
  251. # [18:24] <TabAtkins> glazou: If tantek isn't going to update the WG occasionally as appropriate, I object to publishing.
  252. # [18:25] <ChrisL2> sigh, talk about snatching defeat from the jaws of victory
  253. # [18:25] <TabAtkins> plinss: We'll take this offline. We wont' resolve this with communicating over IRC.
  254. # [18:25] <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
  255. # [18:25] <tantek> are there any technical objections?
  256. # [18:25] <tantek> or only bureaucratic?
  257. # [18:25] * glazou urrrghhh
  258. # [18:26] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/topics/rename-before-after
  259. # [18:26] * florianr non technical
  260. # [18:26] * TabAtkins tantek, you're being ridiculous. You know quite well that we aren't asking for HG diffs on every update, just occasional status updates like *every* editor gives for their specs.
  261. # [18:26] * TabAtkins Quit arguing badly.
  262. # [18:26] <glazou> +1
  263. # [18:27] <TabAtkins> ScribeNick: tantek
  264. # [18:27] <TabAtkins> ScribeNick: TabAtkins
  265. # [18:27] <TabAtkins> fantasai: [discusses switching to head/foot instead of before/after]
  266. # [18:27] <tantek> I'm sorry I forgot the cover sheet on my TPS report.
  267. # [18:27] <TabAtkins> fantasai: So far we havent' released any actual syntax using before/after as keywords or properties.
  268. # [18:27] * ChrisL2 wants to know if the previous resolution still stands, given the tantek 'denied' comment.
  269. # [18:27] <glenn> -0.9 on change to head/tail; don't believe before/after is confusing
  270. # [18:27] <fantasai> fantasai summarizes issue
  271. # [18:27] <tantek> ChrisL2 - I simply denied request for emailing HG diffs to the WG.
  272. # [18:28] * TabAtkins tantek: NOBODY ASKED FOR THAT.
  273. # [18:28] * ChrisL2 strawman
  274. # [18:28] * sylvaing tantek.mouth.insert(tantek.foot)
  275. # [18:28] <glazou> tantek: just with ALL editors, we need to be kept posted when important changes/additions are made
  276. # [18:28] <TabAtkins> alexmog_: [asks for clarification]
  277. # [18:28] * tantek finds a phone
  278. # [18:29] <TabAtkins> alexmog_: What makes this better?
  279. # [18:29] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012May/1065.html
  280. # [18:29] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: before/after has never been great, and ::before/::after is obviously confusing with it.
  281. # [18:29] <Zakim> + +1.415.871.aadd
  282. # [18:29] <tantek> Zakim, aadd is tantek
  283. # [18:29] <Zakim> +tantek; got it
  284. # [18:29] <sylvaing> +1 on the confusion with ::before/::after
  285. # [18:29] * Joins: Rossen (Rossen@131.107.192.20)
  286. # [18:30] <Zakim> -??P57
  287. # [18:30] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.aaa]
  288. # [18:30] <fantasai> szilles: is head/foot culturally sensitive?
  289. # [18:30] <Rossen> Zakim Microsoft.aaa is me
  290. # [18:30] <TabAtkins> fantasai: There's two questions. We *must* have different keywords for the axises, for things like caption-side. Then there's the question of whether the alignment proeprties should use those.
  291. # [18:30] <tantek> glazou - I don't know how to evaluate what's "important" to individuals. from my perspective, "important" changes should/will trigger requests to publish an updated working draft, is that sufficient?
  292. # [18:30] <fantasai> szilles: I think before/after is relatively clear
  293. # [18:31] <glazou> tantek: no
  294. # [18:31] <sylvaing> tantek, glazou: can you guys hold on please?
  295. # [18:31] <fantasai> Tab: I have no experience with Japanese publishing, so don't know if document headings are on the top or the side
  296. # [18:31] <Rossen> Zakim, [Microsoft.aaa] is me
  297. # [18:31] <Zakim> +Rossen; got it
  298. # [18:31] <glenn> agree with alex
  299. # [18:31] <fantasai> Koji: Footnote appears on the left
  300. # [18:31] <fantasai> fantasai: And a heading appears on the right side of a section
  301. # [18:32] <ChrisL2> so it is consistent between horizontal and vertical
  302. # [18:32] <TabAtkins> ScribeNick: fantasai
  303. # [18:32] <fantasai> alex: We haven't had time to think about this
  304. # [18:33] <fantasai> alex: Regardless of what we decide here, my vote for Flexbox is to use start/end in both dimensions
  305. # [18:33] <fantasai> plinss: You want Flexbox to use start/end even if everything else switch to head/foot
  306. # [18:33] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Recall that this is not just for Flexbox, for the alignment properties that will be used for all layout models
  307. # [18:34] <fantasai> discussion of Hamburg resolution to adopt box-alignment across layout models
  308. # [18:34] <dbaron> dbaron: We didn't decide to use them for block yet.
  309. # [18:34] <fantasai> Florian: I'm in favor of using the block-axis keywords in that axis, regardless of what they are
  310. # [18:36] <fantasai> Florian: Don't have a strong opinion on which keywords to use, but prefer head/foot
  311. # [18:36] <fantasai> some confusion over orthogonal flows
  312. # [18:37] <fantasai> TabAtkins: We're only talking naming today, not new layout concepts
  313. # [18:37] <fantasai> szilles: I think you're missing Bert's point.
  314. # [18:37] <fantasai> szilles: Basically the coordinate system changes at the content edge
  315. # [18:37] <fantasai> szilles: Outside the content edge, use the parent's coordinate system
  316. # [18:38] <fantasai> szilles: inside the content edge, use the element's coordinate system
  317. # [18:38] * fantasai suggests chairs call a straw poll
  318. # [18:38] * ChrisL2 lets avoid 'rename all the things'
  319. # [18:39] <fantasai> Bert: [describing some wording problems with logical terms]
  320. # [18:39] <ChrisL2> before hyphen side
  321. # [18:39] <Zakim> -ChrisL2
  322. # [18:40] <fantasai> TabAtkins: So you're saying head/foot is easier to do
  323. # [18:40] <fantasai> Bert: Should just use A/B/C/D to refer to sides of the box
  324. # [18:40] <Zakim> +ChrisL
  325. # [18:40] * sylvaing MIX UP ALL THE THINGS -> RENAME ALL THE THINGS -> LAST CALL
  326. # [18:41] * stearns thinks editors/authors is too specific. Perhaps writers/readers?
  327. # [18:41] <glenn> -1
  328. # [18:41] <fantasai> plinss: Is anyone objecting to switching ot head/foot?
  329. # [18:41] <sylvaing> is not hearing strong objections but is not hearing much of a consensus either
  330. # [18:42] <fantasai> szilles: SVG uses text-before/text-after
  331. # [18:42] <stearns> fwiw I like head/foot too
  332. # [18:42] <fantasai> ChrisL2: SVG is happy to follow CSSWG
  333. # [18:42] * fantasai fantasai explains that text-before isn't really the before side anyway, it's the over side
  334. # [18:42] <fantasai> szilles: I can live with head/foot
  335. # [18:43] * alexmog_ prefers before/after. not clear at all that head is logically before.
  336. # [18:43] <ChrisL2> left hand and right hand pages
  337. # [18:43] <tantek> HTML has THEAD TBODY TFOOT
  338. # [18:43] <fantasai> Florian: I might be wrong, but I think it's the first time we use body parts in a spec
  339. # [18:43] * Joins: miketayl_r (miketaylr@173.139.83.101)
  340. # [18:43] <fantasai> sylvaing: As far as English goes, it's a decent choice, and I think it's much clearer.
  341. # [18:44] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Switch before/after to head/foot
  342. # [18:44] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/topics/start-end-before-after-align
  343. # [18:44] * Quits: miketaylr (miketaylr@67.79.218.159) (Ping timeout)
  344. # [18:45] <tantek> Florian, CSS 2.1 uses table-header-group, table-footer-group http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/tables.html#table-display
  345. # [18:45] <glenn> would like different keywords for different axes
  346. # [18:46] <fantasai> TabAtkins: My major objection to changing to 4 direction is that while it makes sense for grid/block, which are writing-mode-relative,
  347. # [18:46] <fantasai> TabAtkins: For flexbox, this isn't true
  348. # [18:46] <tantek> regarding spec audiences, please see the spec restyling in effort that fantasai, Vincent, and myself are working on : http://www.w3.org/wiki/Restyle#Audiences
  349. # [18:46] <fantasai> TabAtkins: So IMO using 4D for this particular set of property pairs would be worse, and we should use start/end for both dimensions for these sets of properties
  350. # [18:47] <fantasai> TabAtkins: In the actual spec I use main-end/cross-end etc.
  351. # [18:47] <glenn> but i agree with Tab on this
  352. # [18:47] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Properties use just start/end because I didn't need to be more specific than that.
  353. # [18:47] <fantasai> [we're discussing the justify and align properties]
  354. # [18:47] <glenn> can we use 2 keywords for flexbox, and 4 for grid/block?
  355. # [18:47] <fantasai> Florian: So if we just have Flexbox and Grid, it's just a coin toss which spec we're going to make more confusing
  356. # [18:47] * sylvaing tantek, very cool!
  357. # [18:48] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  358. # [18:48] <fantasai> Florian: When it is the bock axis, it's going to be confusing that start/end is used in block axis
  359. # [18:48] <tantek> Thanks sylvaing! To be clear - input is very much welcome.
  360. # [18:48] <tantek> Feel free to even directly edit/add to the wiki page itself. If we disagree we'll edit it further :)
  361. # [18:49] <tantek> and likely ask to discuss it here.
  362. # [18:49] <tantek> If there are disputed priorities/opinions etc., we'll try to capture multiple viewpoints on the wiki.
  363. # [18:49] <fantasai> fantasai: ... trying to establish start/end/head/foot as a flow-relative set of directions, equivalent to top/left/bottom/right as physical directions
  364. # [18:49] <Zakim> +SteveZ
  365. # [18:50] <fantasai> ...
  366. # [18:50] <fantasai> Florian: These are logical dimensions, logical relative to what can depend on layout mode
  367. # [18:51] * tantek once again attempts to follow http://wiki.csswg.org/tools/hg/install to see where he gets stuck this time.
  368. # [18:51] <glenn> initial/final?
  369. # [18:52] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Referring to start side as head would be confusing
  370. # [18:52] <fantasai> fantasai: Wouldn't referring to head side as start side also be confusing?
  371. # [18:52] <glenn> committitur/finem (latin)
  372. # [18:53] <fantasai> Phil: So, say I set margin-head: 10px; to put margin on head side of a column flexbox, what do I set to bunch up the elements towards that side of the box?
  373. # [18:53] <glenn> alpha/omega
  374. # [18:53] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Regardless of what we decide here, it would be justify-content: start;
  375. # [18:53] <glenn> ;)
  376. # [18:54] <plinss> zakim, who is on the phone?
  377. # [18:54] <Zakim> On the phone I see fantasai, florianr, plinss, [Microsoft], PhilCupp, glenn (muted), Brian_Leroux, smfr, rbetts, dbaron, alexmog_, TabAtkins_, glazou, krit, [Microsoft.a], [Apple],
  378. # [18:54] <fantasai> Straw Poll
  379. # [18:54] <Zakim> ... kojiishi, [Microsoft.aa], Bert, stearns, tantek, Rossen, ChrisL, SteveZ
  380. # [18:54] <Zakim> [Apple] has hober
  381. # [18:54] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has JohnJansen
  382. # [18:54] <Zakim> [Microsoft.aa] has Katie
  383. # [18:54] <fantasai> A) use start/end/head/foot as flow-relative (relative to flex-flow for flexboxes)
  384. # [18:54] <fantasai> B) use start/end/start/end in both dimensions
  385. # [18:55] <glenn> C) something else [TBD]
  386. # [18:55] * tantek abstains from this straw poll.
  387. # [18:55] <fantasai> (flow-relative is writing-mode relative everywher eelse)
  388. # [18:55] <fantasai> fantasai: A
  389. # [18:55] <fantasai> Florian: A
  390. # [18:55] <fantasai> plinss: A
  391. # [18:55] <glenn> glenn: C
  392. # [18:55] <fantasai> JohnJansen: abstain
  393. # [18:55] <TabAtkins> (flow-realtive is *also* writing-mode relative on Flexbox for every other property)
  394. # [18:55] <fantasai> Phil: abstain
  395. # [18:56] * alexmog_ B
  396. # [18:56] <fantasai> smfr: abstain
  397. # [18:56] * alexmog_ has to get off irc right now
  398. # [18:56] <fantasai> ?: abstain
  399. # [18:56] <stearns> s/?/rbetts
  400. # [18:56] <rbetts> that was rbetts that abstained
  401. # [18:56] <fantasai> dbaron: abstain, though maybe A, but abstain
  402. # [18:56] <fantasai> alex: B
  403. # [18:56] <fantasai> TabAtkins: B
  404. # [18:56] <fantasai> glazou: A
  405. # [18:57] * fantasai is ok with C as well
  406. # [18:57] <Liam> [Liam fears head/foot will be confusing with respect to running heads and footers, which are usually not writing-mode relative so B or C if my vote counts :-) ]
  407. # [18:57] <sylvaing> abstains
  408. # [18:57] <Katie> Katie: abstain
  409. # [18:57] <ChrisL2> A
  410. # [18:57] <tantek> make that abstain / delegate to editor preference
  411. # [18:57] <fantasai> hober: abstain
  412. # [18:57] * florianr A then C then B, to be specific
  413. # [18:57] <fantasai> szilles: B
  414. # [18:58] <stearns> abstain
  415. # [18:58] <Rossen> rossen: abstain
  416. # [18:58] <kojiishi> kojiishi: B
  417. # [18:58] <Bert> Bert: maybe B
  418. # [18:58] <fantasai> tantek: abstain, unless consensus amongst editors
  419. # [18:58] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  420. # [18:58] <tantek> C = unicorns?
  421. # [18:59] <fantasai> Options for C
  422. # [18:59] <fantasai> ?
  423. # [18:59] <glenn> by C I meant use something different for flow-relative
  424. # [18:59] <rbetts> near/far?
  425. # [18:59] * Quits: alexmog_ (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  426. # [18:59] <Rossen> Is C start/end/before/after
  427. # [18:59] <ChrisL2> don't like the same terms to be used for both directions
  428. # [18:59] <fantasai> Florian: C is to use same terms for both, but not to use the flow-relative directions
  429. # [19:00] * sylvaing recalls a time when renaming things made me understand them better...
  430. # [19:00] <glenn> I would vote A for grid/block, but don't like confusion that would result if start/end also used with flexbox
  431. # [19:00] <fantasai> Rossen, no it's before/after/before/after
  432. # [19:00] <fantasai> (or some other set of terms)
  433. # [19:00] <fantasai> Rossen: So it's the same as B, except with different terms
  434. # [19:00] <rbetts> if you don't use the same terms for both directions, then you'll have to update two properties in concert. i.e.: if I change the flex orientation then I'd have to update the justify and align keywords, which seems unnecessary
  435. # [19:01] <fantasai> no, rbetts, the keywords are tied to the property, not to the effective dimension
  436. # [19:01] <rbetts> ah, ok.
  437. # [19:01] <fantasai> plinss: Are people happy to use same terms in both dimensions?
  438. # [19:01] <rbetts> (and sorry - that should have been phrased as a question, fantasia)
  439. # [19:02] * Quits: JohnJansen (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
  440. # [19:02] <fantasai> fantasai: yes
  441. # [19:02] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
  442. # [19:02] <dbaron> I'll switch from abstain to A. :-)
  443. # [19:02] <fantasai> Phil: I had resolution that we'd use fantasai's new alignment properties for Flexbox
  444. # [19:02] <fantasai> Phil: But her spec uses different terms in different dimensions
  445. # [19:03] <fantasai> TabAtkins: This is about that spec
  446. # [19:03] * tantek reaches the end of http://wiki.csswg.org/tools/hg/install and has no idea if he succeeded or not. Is there a simple test for seeing if you successfully installed hg? Just type hg and get … ?
  447. # [19:03] * plinss tantek: hg --version
  448. # [19:04] * tantek thanks plinss
  449. # [19:04] <fantasai> Florian: Because we're defining start/end to be in the inline direction, I'm happy for either using head/foot in the other dimension, or using a different set of keywords in both dimensions
  450. # [19:06] <fantasai> fantasai: so where are we at?
  451. # [19:06] * sylvaing has been meaning to move the actual spec editing hints (edit overview.src.html, process etc.) from the CVS to the hg wiki page
  452. # [19:06] <dbaron> dbaron: I don't think we should have three sets of keywords because people will have yet another set to confuse.
  453. # [19:06] <sylvaing> let's stick a $ sign in front!
  454. # [19:06] * florianr LOL
  455. # [19:06] <tantek> +1 to reducing namesmithing/thrashing/bikeshedding
  456. # [19:07] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I'm going to object to naming changes if we don't resolve this soon
  457. # [19:07] <sylvaing> +100. bikeshedding at last call is an anti-pattern
  458. # [19:08] <fantasai> Phil: Can we just prefix the flex alignment properties and fix this later?
  459. # [19:08] <Ms2ger> That's an awful idea
  460. # [19:08] <fantasai> fantasai: I don't think that is a good way of fixing the impasse
  461. # [19:08] <fantasai> sylvaing: I don't like deciding on the API and then renaming the whole thing, not an efficient way to work
  462. # [19:08] <tantek> "rename all the things!" (or was that not to…)
  463. # [19:08] <fantasai> sylvaing: But if we can just settle it now, let's do it. We can't keep going like this.
  464. # [19:09] <fantasai> florian: So we have all the preferences, but does anyone object to A or B or C?
  465. # [19:09] <fantasai> apparently not
  466. # [19:09] <fantasai> dbaron: I might object to C
  467. # [19:10] <dbaron> The goal is that this stuff apply to more than just flexbox.
  468. # [19:10] <Zakim> -alexmog_
  469. # [19:10] * Bert thinks 'justify-content: start' seems fine, but 'align-content: start' is unclear: which side is that? Is that clockwise from the start of the flexbox?
  470. # [19:11] <fantasai> discussion of having fantasai and Tab work it out
  471. # [19:11] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.aa]
  472. # [19:11] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Tab and fantasai to decide on this issue
  473. # [19:11] <glenn> i'm ok with fanasai/tab reaching mutual agreement
  474. # [19:11] <Zakim> -ChrisL
  475. # [19:11] <Zakim> -smfr
  476. # [19:11] <Zakim> -Rossen
  477. # [19:11] <Zakim> -[Apple]
  478. # [19:11] <Zakim> -TabAtkins_
  479. # [19:11] * Quits: ChrisL2 (ChrisL@128.30.52.169) (Quit: Fire on main board error, client combusted)
  480. # [19:11] <Zakim> -dbaron
  481. # [19:11] <Zakim> -Brian_Leroux
  482. # [19:11] <Zakim> -glazou
  483. # [19:11] * Quits: smfr (smfr@173.228.90.229) (Quit: smfr)
  484. # [19:11] <Zakim> -PhilCupp
  485. # [19:11] <Zakim> -kojiishi
  486. # [19:11] <rbetts> (as an aside, I think I might be Brian_Leroux, as I'm calling from the former Nitobi office)
  487. # [19:11] <Zakim> -fantasai
  488. # [19:11] * Quits: Katie (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
  489. # [19:11] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  490. # [19:11] <Zakim> -krit
  491. # [19:11] <Zakim> -Bert
  492. # [19:11] <Zakim> -florianr
  493. # [19:11] <Zakim> -glenn
  494. # [19:11] <glazou> rbetts: no you were listed by Zakim
  495. # [19:11] * Quits: PhilCupp (pcupp@131.107.0.85) (Quit: PhilCupp)
  496. # [19:11] <Zakim> -stearns
  497. # [19:11] <Zakim> -plinss
  498. # [19:12] <glazou> or maybe
  499. # [19:12] <glazou> :)
  500. # [19:12] <rbetts> yeah. haha. Zakim did a -Brian_Leroux right as I hung up.
  501. # [19:12] <Zakim> -rbetts
  502. # [19:12] * tantek will wait for the minutes, but is curious what was productive about that call.
  503. # [19:13] <glazou> rbetts: zakim saw a -rbetts too
  504. # [19:14] <rbetts> the mystery of Brian_Leroux remains.
  505. # [19:14] <glazou> tada !
  506. # [19:14] * glazou expects a Brian_Leroux meme by hober
  507. # [19:15] * Quits: kojiishi (kojiishi@222.158.227.129) (Quit: Leaving...)
  508. # [19:15] * Quits: rbetts (rbetts@192.150.10.201) (Quit: rbetts)
  509. # [19:15] * tantek continues to work his way through http://wiki.csswg.org/tools/hg/install attempting to edit for clarification, and add plinss hg --version check for verifying a successful install.
  510. # [19:16] <Zakim> -tantek
  511. # [19:16] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  512. # [19:16] <Zakim> Attendees were fantasai, florianr, plinss, sylvaing, +1.339.524.9.aaaa, ChrisL2, hober, [Microsoft], glenn, Brian_Leroux, smfr, dbaron, PhilCupp, +1.425.246.aabb, alexmog_,
  513. # [19:16] <Zakim> ... TabAtkins_, glazou, rbetts, Bert, krit, JohnJansen, SteveZ, kojiishi, Katie, +1.206.390.aacc, stearns, +1.415.871.aadd, tantek, Rossen, ChrisL
  514. # [19:16] * tantek leaves telcon, Zakim ends the call. Well done Zakim.
  515. # [19:17] * sylvaing tantek, we resolved on a bunch of things we shouldn't be doing at such a late stage. But which we can blissfully do courtesy of vendor prefixes.
  516. # [19:17] <tantek> Zakim, who is Brian_Leroux?
  517. # [19:17] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, tantek.
  518. # [19:17] <tantek> Zakim, who is John Galt?
  519. # [19:17] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, tantek.
  520. # [19:17] * fantasai zakim is not mozbot
  521. # [19:17] <fantasai> :)
  522. # [19:18] <tantek> Zakim, who is Zakim?
  523. # [19:18] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, tantek.
  524. # [19:18] <tantek> Zakim, who are you?
  525. # [19:18] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, tantek.
  526. # [19:18] <tantek> Zakim, what are you?
  527. # [19:18] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, tantek.
  528. # [19:23] * Parts: oyvind (oyvinds@213.236.208.22)
  529. # [19:24] <tantek> ok I believe I have successfully installed hg, and have updated http://wiki.csswg.org/tools/hg/install accordingly with how to verify as such (thanks to plinss).
  530. # [19:25] <plinss> tantek: and just in time for the new version that's going to be released on Friday :-)
  531. # [19:26] <tantek> yes
  532. # [19:26] <tantek> new version of what?
  533. # [19:26] <Ms2ger> HG
  534. # [19:26] <Ms2ger> Presumably
  535. # [19:27] <plinss> yes, hg. Actually they release a new version the first of every month, June 1 should be v2.2.2, just a maintenance release
  536. # [19:28] * Quits: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19) (Quit: glazou)
  537. # [19:28] * Quits: miketayl_r (miketaylr@173.139.83.101) (Quit: Leaving...)
  538. # [19:28] <tantek> plinss, I've made the update instructions a separate section as well: http://wiki.csswg.org/tools/hg/install#mercurial-updates
  539. # [19:28] * tantek presume he's not the only one who will ever need instructions this specific in order to successfully install these tools.
  540. # [19:35] * florianr feels like a MacOS handbook to me, more than a mercurial guide. But if you actually got stuck on these, it is probably worth having anyway.
  541. # [19:38] * Quits: myakura (myakura@122.130.129.42) (Client exited)
  542. # [19:39] <tantek> florianr - everything I've added I've either gotten stuck on or had no clue if the right thing was happening or not (the usual situation in command line interfaces)
  543. # [19:39] <tantek> (enter some command, get back a dump of unintelligible crap, wonder if it did what you meant it to)
  544. # [19:40] <florianr> I don't doubt it
  545. # [19:40] <florianr> I am happy with the command line, but that's clearly not a universal preference
  546. # [19:41] <tantek> I've forgotten too many command line commands/outputs to bother to learn any more
  547. # [19:45] * tantek wonders if .hgrc handles UTF8 like
  548. # [19:45] <tantek> Ç
  549. # [19:46] <plinss> tantek: yes it does, there's a bug with BOMs though, so don't use one
  550. # [19:47] <tantek> ok
  551. # [19:51] * Joins: jet (jet@67.169.43.128)
  552. # [19:51] * Quits: florianr (florianr@213.236.208.22) (Quit: Leaving.)
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  559. # [20:08] <tantek> so about 106 MB for the CSS test hg
  560. # [20:08] <tantek> I guess that's not too bad
  561. # [20:12] * Quits: miketaylr (miketaylr@67.79.218.159) (Quit: Leaving...)
  562. # [20:21] <tantek> btw - to get notified of when Fullscreen is updated: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/fullscreen/atom-log
  563. # [20:21] <tantek> (in the feed reader of your choice)
  564. # [20:30] * sylvaing is now known as sylvaing_away
  565. # [20:31] <fantasai> tantek: people don't want to follow every edit, they just want to be told when major changes are made and they need to re-review the document
  566. # [20:31] <tantek> fantasai "major changes" is in the eye of the beholder
  567. # [20:31] <fantasai> tantek: indeed, so batch them up and say "I made a bunch of changes, please review this"
  568. # [20:31] <tantek> there aren't lots of edits being made to fullscreen
  569. # [20:32] <tantek> so anyone who actually cares about fullscreen doesn't have much to follow
  570. # [20:32] <fantasai> tantek: yes, but if that's the attitude from every spec writer, nobody can keep up
  571. # [20:32] <tantek> that's right, nobody can keep up
  572. # [20:32] <tantek> that happened about mid to late 2000s
  573. # [20:32] <fantasai> tantek: so your job is to create the digest
  574. # [20:32] <tantek> and is much worse now
  575. # [20:32] <fantasai> tantek: so that people can keep up without having to track all your typo fixes
  576. # [20:32] <tantek> digest = http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/fullscreen/atom-log
  577. # [20:32] <tantek> typo fixes yeah
  578. # [20:33] <tantek> that's annoying
  579. # [20:33] <tantek> MediaWiki has the notion of minor edits
  580. # [20:33] <tantek> and you can hide minor edits from a history
  581. # [20:33] * tantek wonders if there is a comment convention for cvs/hg/git for "minor revision"
  582. # [20:33] <tantek> e.g. "m:"
  583. # [20:34] <fantasai> tantek: all you have to do is ping the WG every once in awhile and say I've made a bunch of changes, please review. It's your job to figure out what interval is appropriate for chunking
  584. # [20:34] * tantek would just ping when ready to post a new WD then
  585. # [20:34] <tantek> those two frequencies of stability seem sufficient
  586. # [20:34] <tantek> either people are interested in every change (of which there aren't many, not that often)
  587. # [20:34] <fantasai> that's probably fine, as long as you post a new WD reasonably frequently :)
  588. # [20:34] * fantasai would do the same
  589. # [20:35] <tantek> or if they only "major" changes, then just wait for the editor to request an updated public WD
  590. # [20:35] <tantek> this other rigamarole about some made up notion of "major changes" notifications is just a waste of everyone's time.
  591. # [20:36] <tantek> fantasai - what's a good WD heartbeat frequency in your opinion?
  592. # [20:36] <tantek> (actually curious - I don't have an answer to that)
  593. # [20:36] <fantasai> depends on how frequently the draft is updated, really
  594. # [20:36] <fantasai> I'd say anywhere from one month to 6 months
  595. # [20:36] <tantek> no, heartbeat means a minimum update frequency
  596. # [20:36] <tantek> has nothing to do with "how frequently the draft is updated"
  597. # [20:37] <fantasai> well, if the draft hasn't been updated at all, there's no point to publish :)
  598. # [20:37] <tantek> I don't think we have on in the CSSWG
  599. # [20:37] <tantek> that's not true
  600. # [20:37] <tantek> updating the date makes it clear that nothing has changed
  601. # [20:37] <fantasai> ah, no, it makes you wonder what's changed since it's been updated now
  602. # [20:37] <tantek> otherwise if the date on a public WD is old, people assume it's just obsolete
  603. # [20:37] <fantasai> ah
  604. # [20:38] <tantek> and then go look at the editor's draft (if they weren't already)
  605. # [20:38] <tantek> and if the date on an editor's draft is old, people assume it's abandoned technology
  606. # [20:38] * Joins: jet (jet@206.15.76.122)
  607. # [20:38] <fantasai> wrt abandonment, I don't think you run into that until the 1 year mark
  608. # [20:38] <fantasai> wrt up-to-date-ness, you'd need more frequent than that
  609. # [20:38] <fantasai> I think the process recommends every 3 months
  610. # [20:39] <fantasai> which is probably fine as a baseline, adjust up or down depending on level of activity on that module
  611. # [20:40] <fantasai> Selectors L4 is on a very slow cycle because it's not very actively edited and hasn't been getting much feedback that needs handling
  612. # [20:40] <fantasai> Flexbox probably should be getting updated every 3 - 6 weeks at the current rate
  613. # [20:41] <fantasai> Wrt Text, probably 3-month cycle is roughly on-target
  614. # [20:41] * fantasai will probably publish another WD once the Hamburg edits are in
  615. # [20:41] <fantasai> and then decide whether to send it to LC
  616. # [20:45] <tantek> a 3 month heartbeat seems reasonable.
  617. # [20:45] <tantek> I could see groups syncing heartbeat drafts to just after a f2f
  618. # [20:46] <tantek> since those typically result in a flurry of edits
  619. # [20:46] <tantek> and public WDs are primarily for folks *outside* the WG itself
  620. # [20:46] <tantek> so for CSSWG we could decide on a heartbeat annual schedule for example that roughly corresponds to our f2f meetings
  621. # [20:47] <tantek> e.g. March/June/September/November (after #tpac)
  622. # [20:48] * tantek wonders if a heartbeat schedule like that would actually make our spec publishing more efficient, since it would be regular (instead of so much time spent in telcons with one-off discussions about whether to publish another draft or not)
  623. # [20:51] * Joins: miketaylr (miketaylr@70.112.101.224)
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  625. # [21:03] * sylvaing_away is now known as sylvaing
  626. # [21:04] <fantasai> the one-off discussions about publishing are generally about 2-4 minutes long
  627. # [21:04] <fantasai> except when they happen to also be review dicussions
  628. # [21:04] <fantasai> one of the primary functions of those discussions is as a forcing function for getting those reviews out
  629. # [21:05] * Quits: drublic (drublic@93.132.248.93) (Client exited)
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  631. # [21:05] <fantasai> tantek: publishing after F2F edits are complete seems like a good idea in general though
  632. # [21:05] <sylvaing> that does make sense
  633. # [21:06] <tantek> I guess I'd rather have the heartbeats as a forcing function
  634. # [21:06] <tantek> they're more predictable
  635. # [21:06] <fantasai> having them coincide wouldn't be a good idea though :)
  636. # [21:06] <tantek> and developing a rhythm of publishing updates would be a good thing
  637. # [21:06] <fantasai> the heartbeat imo should be a forcing function on the editor
  638. # [21:06] <fantasai> to get things together and request a draft
  639. # [21:06] * sylvaing could use some forcing functions
  640. # [21:06] <tantek> fantasai - why? the heartbeats in HTMLWG have been find
  641. # [21:06] <tantek> fine
  642. # [21:07] <tantek> fantasai - the heartbeat *relieves* the editor of requesting a draft
  643. # [21:07] <tantek> the draft request automatically happens
  644. # [21:07] <tantek> and anyone can object of course
  645. # [21:07] <tantek> but it actually makes *less* work for the editor
  646. # [21:07] <tantek> the default path is, updates get published
  647. # [21:07] <tantek> no need for extra bureaucracy
  648. # [21:08] <sylvaing> yeah i'd rather go to a model where you have to actively stop publishing by getting consensus on the need for it
  649. # [21:08] <tantek> sylvaing +++++
  650. # [21:08] * Quits: drublic (drublic@93.132.248.93) (Ping timeout)
  651. # [21:08] * tantek invents a new operator
  652. # [21:08] * sylvaing probably means something in some version of Perl
  653. # [21:09] <fantasai> given the editor's supposed to collect a list of changes and validate/link-check the draft, I think you can't quite have the process be that automatic
  654. # [21:09] <sylvaing> unless the editor documents changes as he/she makes them?
  655. # [21:09] <fantasai> the editor still has to do some work, it can't be a cron job
  656. # [21:10] <fantasai> sylvaing: yep, that's a good practice, but not always followed :)
  657. # [21:10] <sylvaing> ok so we need a forcing function for that to happen
  658. # [21:11] <fantasai> currently it's the publication process
  659. # [21:11] <fantasai> it's a checklist on the to-do list for that
  660. # [21:11] <fantasai> s/checklist/item/ s/to-do listchecklist/
  661. # [21:11] <tantek> fantasai - all those things can be semi-automatically be checked, and if they fail, server as objections to publish
  662. # [21:12] <tantek> there doesn't need to be a separate process for them
  663. # [21:12] <tantek> in other news
  664. # [21:12] * sylvaing is sensing some microformat disturbances in the force
  665. # [21:13] * tantek likes to simplify processes, reduce human bureaucracy
  666. # [21:13] * sylvaing digs that
  667. # [21:14] * sylvaing wishes editing css3-animations was just a matter of editing a wiki page templated for spec work in his browser and pushing a button to regenerate overview.html or whatever
  668. # [21:15] <sylvaing> seriously, i enjoy writing raw HTML as much as the next guy but actually authoring a spec in raw HTML is a pathetic waste of our collective time
  669. # [21:15] <fantasai> tantek: right, and until you write that script, someone needs to do that manually. At the moment, it's the responsibility of the editor.
  670. # [21:16] <sylvaing> SCRIPT ALL THE THINGS
  671. # [21:16] <Ms2ger> What's the alternative, sylvaing?
  672. # [21:16] <nimbu> gist.github.com
  673. # [21:16] * Joins: drublic (drublic@95.115.29.233)
  674. # [21:18] <tantek> fantasai - pretty sure regardless of what the editor does / does not do, team contact checks it before asking for publication
  675. # [21:18] <tantek> so no need to write a script
  676. # [21:18] <tantek> if the editor doesn't make sure those checks pass, then the checks fail by the team contact, serves as an objection to publish, and the heartbeat fails
  677. # [21:18] <tantek> no problem
  678. # [21:18] <tantek> and we just let community pressure take over
  679. # [21:19] <tantek> when some specs appear to have heartbeats no problem, and others don't
  680. # [21:19] <sylvaing> the WG's home page could reflect the heartbeat status
  681. # [21:19] <sylvaing> of each spec
  682. # [21:19] <tantek> it indicates a need for more/better editorship (myself included in that challenge of course)
  683. # [21:19] <tantek> sylvaing yes
  684. # [21:19] <fantasai> Ah, the WG's home page
  685. # [21:19] * Quits: SimonSapin (simon@82.232.219.95) (Ping timeout)
  686. # [21:19] <sylvaing> same here. falling way behind on css3-animations again and hating it
  687. # [21:20] <fantasai> such a missed opportunity
  688. # [21:20] <sylvaing> sigh
  689. # [21:20] <nimbu> hahahah
  690. # [21:20] <nimbu> :)))
  691. # [21:21] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  692. # [21:21] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.169)
  693. # [21:21] <sylvaing> sometimes I feel like there is some kind of secret charter for all WGs: "Never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity"
  694. # [21:21] * sylvaing sobs, looks for emergency flask
  695. # [21:21] <nimbu> :'(
  696. # [21:23] <fantasai> sylvaing: the WG homepage isn't in the WG charter
  697. # [21:23] <sylvaing> i can't even tell if that's a good thing or a bad thing....
  698. # [21:24] * sylvaing sobs again
  699. # [21:24] * sylvaing ok not really
  700. # [21:24] <fantasai> sylvaing: I know this, because it's why the WG has no authority to change it
  701. # [21:24] <sylvaing> oh man, really?
  702. # [21:24] <fantasai> yep
  703. # [21:24] <sylvaing> well, that's fucking awesome
  704. # [21:24] <sylvaing> if you'll pardon my french
  705. # [21:24] <sylvaing> so to speak
  706. # [21:24] <fantasai> lol
  707. # [21:27] <TabAtkins> sylvaing: I don't understand. The "HTML" part of spec editting is extremely tiny. There's no complicated decisions or hard markup. All the styling is taken out of your hands, too.
  708. # [21:27] <TabAtkins> You just... write text. And then occasionally use an <i> to mark up a term, or an <a> to link somewhere.
  709. # [21:27] <sylvaing> I don't need or want markup in my face when I'm just writing prose
  710. # [21:28] <sylvaing> doesn't matter if its email or a spec
  711. # [21:28] <TabAtkins> Okay. I guess we have different thresholds for this. The amount of markup in my specs is drastically lower than in any other pages I write.
  712. # [21:28] <sylvaing> and if most of the markup is the same and obeys a template I'd like to spend my time not generating it by hand
  713. # [21:28] <sylvaing> well yeah, you do use a lot of words. I guess that helps :)
  714. # [21:29] <TabAtkins> If you're writing a lot of formulaic markup that could be automated, you're probably doing it wrong.
  715. # [21:29] <Ms2ger> *right
  716. # [21:29] * fantasai wonders if we could incorporate a Markdown processor into the preprocessor
  717. # [21:29] <sylvaing> bingo
  718. # [21:29] <Ms2ger> As in, you've got enough cross-references
  719. # [21:29] <TabAtkins> By that I mean, something is wrong with the process you're using. Because I write just about the minimum amount of markup possible.
  720. # [21:29] <Ms2ger> CSS specs always seem to lack those
  721. # [21:29] <TabAtkins> Using Markdown would reduce my work a tiny bit more, but that's it.
  722. # [21:29] <sylvaing> a spec-oriented markdown syntax would be great
  723. # [21:30] <sylvaing> I don't see why I should even know what markup to use for a propdef table
  724. # [21:30] <sylvaing> hell I don't see why I *need* to know what markup is used at all
  725. # [21:30] <fantasai> heh, well you have to use *something*
  726. # [21:30] <fantasai> if it's a bunch of ascii or a bunch of HTML tags
  727. # [21:30] <fantasai> you have to use *something* for a prpdef table
  728. # [21:30] <sylvaing> sure.
  729. # [21:30] <fantasai> might as well be HTML
  730. # [21:30] <TabAtkins> I don't see a strong difference between the minimum propdef table and "{prop: 'foo', grammar: 'bar | baz', ...}"
  731. # [21:30] <fantasai> ouch
  732. # [21:30] <sylvaing> lol
  733. # [21:31] <fantasai> sooo many quote marks.... noooo
  734. # [21:31] * Quits: nimbu (Adium@192.150.10.200) (Quit: Leaving.)
  735. # [21:31] <TabAtkins> That was just for nesting in the chat.
  736. # [21:31] <fantasai> sylvaing: I always copy/paste the propdeft tables anyway
  737. # [21:31] <fantasai> and if it were in Markdown or whatever, I'd still copy-paste them!
  738. # [21:32] <sylvaing> and in 20 years we'll still be copy-pasting shit
  739. # [21:32] <sylvaing> because copy-pasting is awesome
  740. # [21:32] <sylvaing> COPY-PASTE ALL THE THINGS
  741. # [21:32] * Quits: isherman (Adium@216.239.45.4) (Client exited)
  742. # [21:32] <TabAtkins> You weigh the benefits of automating versus the time spent doing it.
  743. # [21:33] * TabAtkins goes to look at the animations spec to see if Sylvain's doing something wrong.
  744. # [21:33] <sylvaing> that comparison entirely depends on the timeframe one takes into consideration
  745. # [21:33] <TabAtkins> Oh wow, you've got *all kinds* of indentation inconsistency.
  746. # [21:33] <TabAtkins> No wonder it's all confusing.
  747. # [21:34] <TabAtkins> Oh gosh, and those propdef tables. SO LONG.
  748. # [21:34] <TabAtkins> Okay, so I understand why you hate writing the spec, Sylvain.
  749. # [21:34] <sylvaing> The time spent dealing with this manual crud across all the WGs over the past decade is probably ridiculous
  750. # [21:34] <fantasai> yes, just copy TabAtkins' coding style, and it'll all be better :D
  751. # [21:34] * TabAtkins has the uncontrollable desire to do a markup edit.
  752. # [21:35] * fantasai suggests sylvaing gives him permission
  753. # [21:35] <sylvaing> sounds like I should look at flexbox
  754. # [21:35] <fantasai> :DD
  755. # [21:35] <TabAtkins> sylvaing: Mind if I go and just reformat the source to our conventions? It's *way* easier to read and write.
  756. # [21:35] * sylvaing suspects flexbox goes <all-the-things>spec</all-the-thing>
  757. # [21:35] <sylvaing> mind? I was about to bribe you to do it
  758. # [21:36] <TabAtkins> Okay. Care about tabs vs spaces?
  759. # [21:36] <sylvaing> that sounds like a trick question....
  760. # [21:36] <TabAtkins> I'll follow whichever you prefer, if you have a strong feeling.
  761. # [21:36] <TabAtkins> Otherwise I'm using tabs.
  762. # [21:36] <sylvaing> i use spaces but was never religious about it. i can switch.
  763. # [21:36] <TabAtkins> Okay, gimme an hour.
  764. # [21:36] <fantasai> sylvaing: read http://rhodesmill.org/brandon/2012/one-sentence-per-line/ while Tab reformats it for you
  765. # [21:37] <sylvaing> tab uses tabs
  766. # [21:37] <fantasai> (of course!)
  767. # [21:37] <sylvaing> (letting that sink in)
  768. # [21:37] * Parts: jet (jet@206.15.76.122)
  769. # [21:37] <sylvaing> it's tabs all the way down
  770. # [21:37] * Joins: jet (jet@206.15.76.122)
  771. # [21:37] <fantasai> sylvaing: since Tab is reformatting with tabs for you...
  772. # [21:37] <fantasai> sylvaing: make sure you understand the difference between indentation and alignment
  773. # [21:38] <fantasai> sylvaing: indentation is with tabs, but alignment is always with spaces
  774. # [21:38] <TabAtkins> You rarely need to align in a spec, though.
  775. # [21:38] <TabAtkins> When you do (in a <pre>), you should be up against the first column anyway, so it's moot.
  776. # [21:38] <TabAtkins> sylvaing: Of course!
  777. # [21:39] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I'll sometimes use alignment in data tables
  778. # [21:39] <sylvaing> so you almost completely use tabs :)
  779. # [21:39] <fantasai> yeah
  780. # [21:40] <sylvaing> man, how come i've never heard of semantic linefeeds
  781. # [21:41] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Ah yeah, true.
  782. # [21:43] <sylvaing> just realizing I've only ever looked at specs initially created by Apple
  783. # [21:43] <Ms2ger> My condolences
  784. # [21:43] <sylvaing> maybe they use Pages. Or iBooks Author.
  785. # [21:44] <Ms2ger> OTOH, the worst markup in a CSS spec I ever saw was by Microsoft employees :)
  786. # [21:45] <TabAtkins> sylvaing: Ooh, another thing wrong with what you were doing that made it extra-painful - you were manually putting in things like <code class='property'>, when the proprocessor does that for you if you just use single quotes.
  787. # [21:45] <Ms2ger> (http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-tables-algorithms/Overview.src.htm)
  788. # [21:46] <sylvaing> now that, I didn't know
  789. # [21:47] * sylvaing looks at css3-flexbox and holy shit allelujah
  790. # [21:47] <Ms2ger> There's some documentation somewhere on a Member-only page
  791. # [21:47] <TabAtkins> fantasai: I forget what our convention is for marking up @-rules.
  792. # [21:48] * tantek scrolls up
  793. # [21:48] <tantek> fantasai - re: CSS home page missed opportunity
  794. # [21:48] <tantek> feel free to improve upon http://w3.org/wiki/CSS
  795. # [21:48] <tantek> sylvaing - agreed about preference to just edit on a wiki with less markup
  796. # [21:49] <tantek> better than today would be:
  797. # [21:49] <tantek> edit specs on the W3C wiki, submit W3C wiki URL for the spec to the pre-processor
  798. # [21:50] <TabAtkins> You have an irrational attachment to wikis. ^_^
  799. # [21:50] <tantek> given that we can put class names in wiki pages, we might be able to make that work with a bit of wiki-template work
  800. # [21:50] <tantek> TabAtkins - less markup = more readable/editable - that's perfectly rational
  801. # [21:50] <tantek> also, MediaWiki lets you mark edits as "minor", cvs/hg/git do not.
  802. # [21:50] <tantek> that way you can look at all non-minor edits in a history view
  803. # [21:51] <TabAtkins> tantek: Done well, spec markup is very nearly as minimal as wiki markup, except that it's HTML and more familiar. ^_^
  804. # [21:51] <tantek> and ignore typo edits - a use-case requested by fantasai
  805. # [21:51] <TabAtkins> Minor edits can be done by a better atom feed and a convention.
  806. # [21:51] <tantek> TabAtkins - you speak of theory "Done well". show me A/B and we can discuss.
  807. # [21:51] <TabAtkins> Our atom feed right now is horrible for CSS, unfortunately.
  808. # [21:51] * Ms2ger points out http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker
  809. # [21:51] <sylvaing> tantek, yes. though tab's markup is very clear I still find WYSIWYG or something close to it ideal
  810. # [21:51] <Ms2ger> tantek, A: http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker
  811. # [21:52] <Ms2ger> sylvaing, point-'n'-click? :)
  812. # [21:52] <tantek> Ms2ger - how is that spec markup or wiki markup?
  813. # [21:52] <Ms2ger> tantek, that's for the "ignore typo edits" you were looking for
  814. # [21:53] <tantek> Ms2ger - how do you specify editorial changes in hg?
  815. # [21:53] <tantek> what is triggering that tool to make a distinction?
  816. # [21:53] <sylvaing> ms2ger, i like it when you sound all 1999
  817. # [21:54] <Ms2ger> tantek, a convention
  818. # [21:54] <tantek> Ms2ger URL to documentation of that convention?
  819. # [21:54] <Ms2ger> Maybe somewhere in the web-apps-tracker source
  820. # [21:54] <Ms2ger> It's only Hixie who needs to use it in this case, after all
  821. # [21:55] <tantek> anyway - when you find it, let us know, will happily re-use (rather than reinvent)
  822. # [21:55] <Ms2ger> "[e]" at the start of the commit message
  823. # [21:55] <tantek> good enough for me
  824. # [21:56] <sylvaing> it's not jus the source, i find the content of flexbox to be pretty good these days
  825. # [21:57] <sylvaing> though example 4 puzzled me
  826. # [21:57] <Ms2ger> sylvaing, no, seriously, having to use my mouse is what I find most annoying about wysiwyg tools
  827. # [21:57] <TabAtkins> sylvaing: Send me an email reminding me about it, I'll see if I can edit it to be clearer.
  828. # [21:58] <sylvaing> ms2ger, WYSIWYG does not imply or require a mouse though the correlation is unfortunately pretty high
  829. # [21:59] <sylvaing> tab, the example is clear. it's just that the use case suggests each tab comes to the front when clicked. right after saying flex-order has no effect on z-index it was a bit confusing
  830. # [21:59] <sylvaing> i.e. good use-case but muddles the msg. will email.
  831. # [21:59] <Ms2ger> You're right about requiring, of course, but I'd like to see a wysiwyg editor that doesn't make me use my mouse :)
  832. # [22:00] <Ms2ger> Also, my markup is eccentric enough that I'd need a specialized wysiwyg editor, really
  833. # [22:11] <TabAtkins> sylvaing: In http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-animations/#list-matching , do you really mean "should", or is that an accidental use of the word?
  834. # [22:12] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, are you expecting correct use of RFC2119 in CSS specs? :)
  835. # [22:12] <sylvaing> that is the wrong word
  836. # [22:14] <sylvaing> this section needs some work and a couple of examples imo
  837. # [22:14] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: Yes, I am.
  838. # [22:14] <sylvaing> speaking of examples sent mail re: css3-flexbox ex. 4
  839. # [22:14] <TabAtkins> Modulo the fact that we by convention don't use MUST everywhere we should.
  840. # [22:14] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, I hope you're not including CSS2.1 :)
  841. # [22:16] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: Not really, but if there are uses of must/should/may that are incorrect, we should errata them.
  842. # [22:16] <Ms2ger> How about if they are newly introduced in the errata?
  843. # [22:17] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: Then yell about it.
  844. # [22:17] <TabAtkins> Because that's stupid.
  845. # [22:18] <Ms2ger> "Note: These names must be quoted to distinguish them from the...
  846. # [22:27] <fantasai> Ms2ger: Indeed, CSS2.1 should be honoring the same conventions as other CSS specs wrt RFC2119
  847. # [22:27] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: Yup, that's a rpoblem. Please send email on the thread?
  848. # [22:27] <fantasai> Ms2ger: any deviation is an error
  849. # [22:27] * Joins: nimbu (Adium@192.150.10.200)
  850. # [22:27] <Ms2ger> Eheh
  851. # [22:27] <TabAtkins> (Should change to "have to".)
  852. # [22:27] <fantasai> Ms2ger: yes, that should be "need to be"
  853. # [22:27] <TabAtkins> Or that, yeah.
  854. # [22:27] <Ms2ger> I hope you don't mind if I don't try to point out all the cases? :)
  855. # [22:28] <TabAtkins> Some is better than none.
  856. # [22:28] <fantasai> point out as many or few as you want :)
  857. # [22:28] <fantasai> just know that they're errors, and if you point them out, we'll accept to fix the :)
  858. # [22:28] <Ms2ger> And just sent email
  859. # [22:28] <fantasai> s/the/them/
  860. # [22:28] <Ms2ger> I know they're errors, I just wasn't sure the CSSWG agreed with me :)
  861. # [22:29] <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/conform.html#defs
  862. # [22:30] <fantasai> conformance requirements aren't *only* expressed in RFC2119 terms, but when they're used, they should match RFC2119's interpretation
  863. # [22:31] <TabAtkins> And the corollarly, when the RFC2119 terms are used, they should match RFC2119's interpretation.
  864. # [22:37] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Do you remember the convention we adopted for marking up @-rule names in content? Is it just double-quote?
  865. # [22:39] * Quits: Ms2ger (Ms2ger@91.181.38.75) (Quit: nn)
  866. # [22:42] <tantek> anyone here that can alter w3c hg perms?
  867. # [22:42] <tantek> plinss perhaps?
  868. # [22:42] <tantek> could you give me (w3c.username = Tantekelik) write permissions to http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/fullscreen/ ? thanks!
  869. # [22:43] <tantek> or Bert I suppose
  870. # [22:45] <tantek> and I've spent enough time fighting hg at w3c (again), though I've made progress. I have local repositories for test, csswg, and fullscreen.
  871. # [22:45] <tantek> and with that, see you all next week.
  872. # [22:46] <plinss> tantek: sorry, I don't have access to that server. Ping Mike Smith.
  873. # [22:46] <tantek> ok
  874. # [22:46] <tantek> the instructions were a bit unclear on our wiki page
  875. # [22:46] <tantek> here: http://wiki.csswg.org/tools/hg?&#obtaining-write-access
  876. # [22:47] <tantek> seems to imply for exceptional cases to email you
  877. # [22:47] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I think so?
  878. # [22:47] <plinss> yes, and I then forward the request to Mike...
  879. # [22:49] <plinss> tantek: In general, people should ask me (or Daniel) so at least one chair can verify the request. So the wiki page is correct, for the csswg and fx repos, fullscreen is another matter.
  880. # [22:51] * tantek now understands why there is one repo for csswg rather than one repo per CSS module/spec
  881. # [22:52] <TabAtkins> Phew. I'm down to the IDL part of the spec now.
  882. # [23:00] <TabAtkins> ...this part will take a little bit.
  883. # [23:05] * Joins: myakura (myakura@122.130.129.42)
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  886. # [23:37] <fantasai> tantek: Minutes posted http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012May/1149.html
  887. # [23:40] <TabAtkins> sylvaing: Done.
  888. # [23:40] <TabAtkins> Besides a few tiny wording changes, and a large reorg of the IDL sections, it's all just markup tweaks.
  889. # [23:40] <tantek> Thanks fantasai - I see the resolution to publish with edits stands.
  890. # [23:40] <TabAtkins> Pull and enjoy.
  891. # [23:40] <tantek> (for fullscreen)
  892. # [23:41] <TabAtkins> tantek: Except that Daniel will object personally.
  893. # [23:41] <tantek> I *did* make progress on getting hg setup
  894. # [23:41] <tantek> now I'm only stuck on lxml / html5lib and write permissions
  895. # [23:41] <fantasai> lxml????
  896. # [23:41] <fantasai> are you trying to build the test suite?
  897. # [23:41] <tantek> Anolis requires it
  898. # [23:42] <hober> personally, I think the fullscreen spec could be published as is. we can fix the issues afterwards and publish again.
  899. # [23:42] <fantasai> I.. owww
  900. # [23:42] <hober> but it wasn't worth getting in the middle of that on the call
  901. # [23:42] <tantek> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Anolis
  902. # [23:42] <tantek> hober, I figured I would at least make a good faith effort to make the requested edits
  903. # [23:42] <hober> (publish early and often, i say)
  904. # [23:42] <hober> tantek: *nod*
  905. # [23:42] <fantasai> tantek: OH, Anolis requires lxml and html5lib, not building the CSS2.1 test suite...
  906. # [23:42] <tantek> hober, I'm with you. see aforementioned heartbeat schedule I proposed for CSSWG.
  907. # [23:42] <TabAtkins> fantasai: text-decoration doesn't propogate through to an abspos child, right? Because it's not in the same inline formatting context?
  908. # [23:42] <fantasai> that's ok then
  909. # [23:42] <fantasai> ^_^
  910. # [23:43] <fantasai> TabAtkins: no, it's explicitly blocked
  911. # [23:43] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Although... that's a really great way to explain it
  912. # [23:43] <fantasai> :)
  913. # [23:43] * fantasai should do that
  914. # [23:43] <TabAtkins> I had no idea the block was explicit. Yeah, definitely generalize it.
  915. # [23:43] <tantek> in short: March/June/September/November, shortly after f2f meetings that precede or are early in those months.
  916. # [23:44] <gsnedders> fantasai: Does virtualenv not solve the CSS 2.1 testsuite problem nicely?
  917. # [23:44] <tantek> anyway, I'm stuck on editing Fullscreen until those two issues are resolved (am working with folks to do so)
  918. # [23:44] <tantek> however I should theoretically be able to now incorporated the 2nd LC comments on CSS3-UI
  919. # [23:45] <tantek> hopefully to produce a CR
  920. # [23:45] <fantasai> tantek: which two issues?
  921. # [23:45] <tantek> 1. write perms
  922. # [23:45] <tantek> 2. lxml/html5lib install
  923. # [23:45] <fantasai> send a patch of the source file to the other editor and tell him to check it in
  924. # [23:46] <tantek> easier to send the other editor URLs to your and glazou's emails asking him to incorporate those.
  925. # [23:47] <tantek> (which I did as soon as you raised them in the call and I quickly looked them over)
  926. # [23:47] <fantasai> that works too,
  927. # [23:47] <fantasai> might want to pass on the minutes, too
  928. # [23:50] <tantek> I believe the gist was passed on, the resolved to publish with edits.
  929. # [23:56] * Quits: Rossen (Rossen@131.107.192.20) (Quit: Rossen)
  930. # [23:59] * Quits: jet (jet@206.15.76.122) (Quit: jet)
  931. # [23:59] * Quits: miketaylr (miketaylr@70.112.101.224) (Quit: Leaving...)
  932. # Session Close: Thu May 31 00:00:00 2012

The end :)