/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2012-06-06 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  43. # [16:34] * sylvaing_away is now known as sylvaing
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  53. # [17:25] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/06/06-css-irc
  54. # [17:25] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
  55. # [17:25] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 43 minutes
  56. # [17:25] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
  57. # [17:25] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
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  62. # [18:02] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  63. # [18:02] <Zakim> +sylvaing
  64. # [18:02] <Zakim> +??P22
  65. # [18:02] <Zakim> -??P22
  66. # [18:02] <Zakim> +??P22
  67. # [18:03] <glazou> Zakim, ?P22 is me
  68. # [18:03] <Zakim> sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named '?P22'
  69. # [18:03] <glazou> Zakim, ??P22 is me
  70. # [18:03] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
  71. # [18:03] * Joins: glenn (gadams@174.16.80.45)
  72. # [18:03] * Joins: antonp (50a94e63@207.192.75.252)
  73. # [18:04] <Zakim> +plinss
  74. # [18:04] * sylvaing is pre-emptively relieved the prefixing part of the agenda is time-boxed...
  75. # [18:04] <glazou> eheh
  76. # [18:05] * Joins: oyvind (oyvinds@213.236.208.22)
  77. # [18:05] * hober sylvaing++
  78. # [18:05] <Zakim> +??P7
  79. # [18:05] <glenn> zakim, ??p7 is me
  80. # [18:05] <Zakim> +glenn; got it
  81. # [18:06] <Zakim> +??P10
  82. # [18:06] <Zakim> +fantasai
  83. # [18:07] <Zakim> + +1.206.675.aaaa
  84. # [18:07] <Zakim> -??P10
  85. # [18:07] <stearns> zakim, aaaa is me
  86. # [18:08] <glenn> guess you scared them off
  87. # [18:08] * Joins: CesarAcebal (acebal@85.152.178.157)
  88. # [18:08] <glazou> good
  89. # [18:08] <Zakim> +antonp
  90. # [18:08] <Zakim> +dbaron
  91. # [18:08] <Zakim> +??P36
  92. # [18:09] <florianr> Zakim, I am ??P36
  93. # [18:09] <Zakim> +florianr; got it
  94. # [18:09] <stearns> calling back on a (hopefully less-noisy) line
  95. # [18:09] <Zakim> - +1.206.675.aaaa
  96. # [18:09] * Joins: Rossen (Rossen@131.107.192.20)
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  98. # [18:09] <Zakim> +[Apple]
  99. # [18:09] <hober> Zakim, Apple has me
  100. # [18:09] <Zakim> +hober; got it
  101. # [18:10] <Zakim> + +34.60.94.aabb
  102. # [18:10] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  103. # [18:10] <Zakim> +Brian_Leroux
  104. # [18:10] <Rossen> Zakim, [Microsoft] is me
  105. # [18:10] <Zakim> +Rossen; got it
  106. # [18:10] <CesarAcebal> zakim, aabb is me
  107. # [18:10] <Zakim> +CesarAcebal; got it
  108. # [18:10] <Zakim> +stearns
  109. # [18:10] <glazou> Zakim, Brian_Leroux is rbetts
  110. # [18:10] <Zakim> +rbetts; got it
  111. # [18:10] <Zakim> +SteveZ
  112. # [18:11] * glazou drops his Canard Enchaîné
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  114. # [18:11] <Zakim> +TabAtkins_
  115. # [18:11] * sylvaing mmmmm....duck...
  116. # [18:11] <glazou> lol
  117. # [18:11] <glazou> not _that_ kind of duck
  118. # [18:11] <Zakim> + +1.253.307.aacc
  119. # [18:11] * Joins: smfr (smfr@173.228.90.229)
  120. # [18:11] <arronei_> zakim, aacc is me
  121. # [18:11] <Zakim> +arronei_; got it
  122. # [18:12] <plinss> rbetts: use http://www.w3.org/1998/12/bridge/info/name.php3 to update the phone number to nick mapping in Zakim
  123. # [18:12] <rbetts> will do that right now
  124. # [18:12] <Zakim> +smfr
  125. # [18:12] * sylvaing brian leroux for scribe!
  126. # [18:12] <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
  127. # [18:13] * Joins: bradk (bradk@99.7.175.117)
  128. # [18:13] <fantasai> glazou: Unprefixing of transforms, transitions, and animations
  129. # [18:13] <fantasai> glazou: max 10 minutes
  130. # [18:13] <fantasai> glazou: Since MS unprefixed these in IE10, is allowing other vendors to do that right now.
  131. # [18:13] <fantasai> glazou: and get status report on the specs
  132. # [18:13] <Zakim> +??P11
  133. # [18:13] <fantasai> Tab: I'm morally approving of this move, we should all do it
  134. # [18:13] * Joins: vhardy__ (vhardy@192.150.10.201)
  135. # [18:14] <fantasai> Florian: It's painful that they're prefixed, so now cat is out of box, yes.
  136. # [18:14] <fantasai> dbaron: I think we should unprefix as well. Would also like to see the specs move forward.
  137. # [18:14] <fantasai> glazou: Hearing consensus here. Any objection?
  138. # [18:14] <Zakim> +bradk
  139. # [18:14] <fantasai> smfr: Are we making an exception for these specs specifically, or changing the policy in general?
  140. # [18:14] <Zakim> + +1.415.617.aadd
  141. # [18:14] <bradk> sorry I'm late
  142. # [18:14] <fantasai> Florian: We're making an exception right now, can discuss the rest later.
  143. # [18:14] <fantasai> smfr: I'm ok with that then.
  144. # [18:15] * TabAtkins brad, you arrived *right* at the start of minuting, so everything that's been said is visible to you.
  145. # [18:15] <fantasai> Florian: Are we some strings attached with this permission, or do we assume every implementation is good enough?
  146. # [18:15] <fantasai> glazou: The latter
  147. # [18:15] * Joins: koji (koji@222.158.227.129)
  148. # [18:15] <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
  149. # [18:15] <fantasai> plinss: I think everyone's impl should be matching the spec at this point, given that I don't see a problem with unprefixing.
  150. # [18:15] <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 20 (53%), glazou (59%), rbetts (29%), TabAtkins_ (5%), +1.415.617.aadd (16%)
  151. # [18:16] <fantasai> smfr: We're not in a position to object, but asking forgiveness here not permission.
  152. # [18:16] <fantasai> ...
  153. # [18:16] <fantasai> glazou: We did discuss this before.
  154. # [18:16] <fantasai> Florian: Browser vendors can do anything they want, obviously; question is what *should* we do.
  155. # [18:17] <fantasai> plinss: They can do anything they want, but if they go against WG they're non-conforming.
  156. # [18:17] <fantasai> plinss: Getting WG to agree means they can ship unprefixed and still be conformant.
  157. # [18:17] <fantasai> plinss: This isn't a change in policy, this is a special exception. We've discussed several times before, didn't have consensus. Seem to have consensus now.
  158. # [18:18] <fantasai> plinss: Still like to get to CR.
  159. # [18:18] * Joins: nimbu (Adium@192.150.10.200)
  160. # [18:18] * Joins: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.169)
  161. # [18:18] <fantasai> plinss: MS is not going off on a limb and doing things on their own. MS didn't quite get permission first, but we're at a place where we're ready to give permission anyway.
  162. # [18:19] <fantasai> smfr: Let's imagine that we discover IE doesn't match the CSS Transforms spec when it comes to 3D Rendering section
  163. # [18:19] <fantasai> smfr: Do we now have to match IE's behavior because it's unprefixed, or they have a bug?
  164. # [18:19] <Zakim> +ChrisL
  165. # [18:19] <fantasai> Tab: It'll be standard compat issue -- what decision breaks the least thing. Just like 2.1 decisions.
  166. # [18:19] <fantasai> glazou: IE10 is a preview, right? Still have times to fix things if urgent.
  167. # [18:19] <tantek> Zakim, who is here?
  168. # [18:19] <Zakim> On the phone I see sylvaing, glazou, plinss, glenn (muted), fantasai, antonp, dbaron, florianr, [Apple], CesarAcebal, Rossen, rbetts, stearns, SteveZ, TabAtkins_, arronei_, smfr,
  169. # [18:19] <Zakim> ... ??P11, bradk, +1.415.617.aadd, ChrisL
  170. # [18:19] <Zakim> [Apple] has hober
  171. # [18:19] <Zakim> On IRC I see ChrisL, nimbu, koji, vhardy__, bradk, smfr, SteveZ, rbetts, Rossen, CesarAcebal, oyvind, antonp, glenn, arronei_, dbaron, jet, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, SimonSapin,
  172. # [18:19] <fantasai> sylvaing: Yes, some lattitude about that.
  173. # [18:19] <Zakim> ... drublic, kennyluck, florianr, Ms2ger, tantek, danielfilho, ed, decadance, krijnh, isherman, stearns, shepazu, logbot, heycam|away, sylvaing, alexmog, shans, vhardy,
  174. # [18:19] <fantasai> dbaron: Still some open issues in the specs.
  175. # [18:19] <Zakim> ... CSSWG_LogBot, hober, fantasai, TabAtkins, gsnedders, paul___irish, arronei, dglazkov, Hixie, trackbot, Bert, plinss
  176. # [18:19] <Zakim> -florianr
  177. # [18:20] <Zakim> +??P36
  178. # [18:20] <florianr> Zakim, I am ??P36
  179. # [18:20] <Zakim> +florianr; got it
  180. # [18:20] <Zakim> +??P80
  181. # [18:20] <fantasai> sylvaing: We expect that in some cases we'll match spec, in others might be non-conformant against testcases
  182. # [18:20] <florianr> Zakim, I am ??P80
  183. # [18:20] <Zakim> +florianr; got it
  184. # [18:20] <Zakim> +tantek
  185. # [18:20] <tantek> good morning
  186. # [18:20] <nimbu> Zakim, aadd is me
  187. # [18:20] <Zakim> +nimbu; got it
  188. # [18:20] <fantasai> glazou: So, resolve? Any objection?
  189. # [18:21] <fantasai> glazou: I'm hearing no objection, declaring consensus, we're unprefixing Transforms, Transitions, and Animations
  190. # [18:21] <tantek> great!
  191. # [18:21] <Zakim> -florianr
  192. # [18:21] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Transitions, Transforms, and Animations may be released unprefixed.
  193. # [18:21] <fantasai> glazou asks about status of spcs
  194. # [18:21] <fantasai> sylvaing: Now that release preview is out, will make more time to go through issues
  195. # [18:22] <fantasai> sylvaing: Once done with flexbox, want to give priority to those
  196. # [18:22] <fantasai> smfr: We have 11 open bugs on Transforms, 5 are editorial, 2 are already resolved, so 3-4 need more consideration
  197. # [18:22] <fantasai> smfr: Don't think any big serious issues
  198. # [18:22] <fantasai> plinss: Good time to push on getting tests for these specs
  199. # [18:23] <fantasai> florianr: Speaking of tests, when releasing unprefix, is it encouraged or required to release implementation report?
  200. # [18:23] <Zakim> +??P19
  201. # [18:24] <fantasai> ...
  202. # [18:24] <tantek> normally, unprefixing can happen as soon as a draft enters CR
  203. # [18:24] <koji> zakim, ??p19 is me
  204. # [18:24] <Zakim> +koji; got it
  205. # [18:24] <tantek> implementation reports typically come sometime *during* CR.
  206. # [18:24] <tantek> re: florianr question
  207. # [18:24] <fantasai> tantek, read snapshot
  208. # [18:24] * Joins: rbetts_ (rbetts@192.150.10.201)
  209. # [18:24] <fantasai> plinss: Prefixes was discussed with TAG, and they said we don't have a one-document explanation of our policy, both from vendor and author perspective
  210. # [18:25] <fantasai> plinss: Think it's a good idea, publish as WG Note
  211. # [18:25] <ChrisL> sounds good
  212. # [18:25] <fantasai> plinss: Sound good to everyone?
  213. # [18:25] <fantasai> yes
  214. # [18:25] <ChrisL> who will write it?
  215. # [18:25] <SteveZ> +1 for prefix document
  216. # [18:25] <fantasai> Florian: Do we want to publish such a note before we debate policy, or only after we decide what the new policy should be?
  217. # [18:25] <fantasai> sylvaing: Don't think any harm in documenting current practice
  218. # [18:25] <SteveZ> We should document what we have been doing
  219. # [18:25] <fantasai> plinss: Good to say what we're changing from
  220. # [18:25] * Quits: rbetts (rbetts@66.183.98.139) (Ping timeout)
  221. # [18:25] * rbetts_ is now known as rbetts
  222. # [18:26] <fantasai> dbaron: If we're going to change it, should publish old and new policies together
  223. # [18:26] <fantasai> ...
  224. # [18:26] <nimbu> there is some echo
  225. # [18:26] <fantasai> fantasai: Policy for vendors is already documented in snapshot, just not for authors
  226. # [18:26] <dbaron> fantasai: old policy from vendor perspective is documented in snapshot and in drafts that follow module template
  227. # [18:26] <ChrisL> fantasai: from an author perspective its not documented
  228. # [18:27] <ChrisL> zakim, who is noisy?
  229. # [18:27] <fantasai> plinss: Also heard feedback that shwhat's in snapshot is not clear
  230. # [18:27] <Zakim> ChrisL, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: koji (25%)
  231. # [18:27] <glazou> Zakim, mute koji
  232. # [18:27] <Zakim> koji should now be muted
  233. # [18:27] <Zakim> -koji
  234. # [18:27] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
  235. # [18:27] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou (9%), rbetts (18%), TabAtkins_ (63%)
  236. # [18:27] <tantek> fantasai - yes, what plinss said (re: snapshot, and your suggestion to "read snapshot")
  237. # [18:27] <fantasai> glazou: Ok, let's do that. Who is going to write the document?
  238. # [18:27] <fantasai> ChrisL: I'm happy to help for that
  239. # [18:28] <fantasai> Florian: I'm not sure we agree on what authors are supposed to do
  240. # [18:28] <nimbu> i am happy to help gather feedback from author side of things
  241. # [18:28] * Joins: alexmog_ (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  242. # [18:28] <fantasai> glazou: Let's write the document, it'll go through this WG and we'll discuss it
  243. # [18:28] <nimbu> cc: florianr
  244. # [18:28] <Zakim> +??P12
  245. # [18:28] <fantasai> plinss: Document gives us a concrete proposal to start with
  246. # [18:28] <koji> zakim, ??p12 is me
  247. # [18:28] <Zakim> +koji; got it
  248. # [18:28] <fantasai> Florian: Just concerned we'll spend too much time on that
  249. # [18:28] <fantasai> plinss: Chairs job to manage time
  250. # [18:29] <fantasai> RESOLVED: WWrite document explaining prefixing policy as WG Note
  251. # [18:29] <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2012AprJun/0269.html
  252. # [18:29] <fantasai> Topic: Box Alignment
  253. # [18:29] <TabAtkins> ScribeNick: TabAtkins
  254. # [18:29] <TabAtkins> fantasai: We all agreed we shoudl work on this.
  255. # [18:29] <TabAtkins> fantasai: and there were several decisions taht went into flexbox that went into the draft.
  256. # [18:29] <TabAtkins> fantasai: I want to publish this with Flexbox, because we wanted to make it clear that the Flexbox properties will be extended.
  257. # [18:29] <tantek> I am for publication of the FPWD
  258. # [18:29] <ChrisL> +1
  259. # [18:30] <TabAtkins> fantasai: So I'd like to publish FPWD of Box Align on the same day we publish Flexbox LC.
  260. # [18:30] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-align/
  261. # [18:30] <SteveZ> +1
  262. # [18:30] <TabAtkins> florianr: Good.
  263. # [18:30] <TabAtkins> dbaron: What does the current draft say about how it applies to blocks?
  264. # [18:30] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Same thing it said in the f2f - justify is in the inline direction, align is in the block direction.
  265. # [18:30] <TabAtkins> fantasai: [explains what the -content/-self does for Block as well]
  266. # [18:31] * sylvaing can't say no to FPWDs.Just put FPWD on it and I'll buy it.
  267. # [18:31] <smfr> 3.1 heading says "the ‘box-justify’ property" but the table refers to "justfify-self"
  268. # [18:31] <TabAtkins> florianr: In the doc you have several parts where you refer to the old properties in Flexbox, those need to be updated.
  269. # [18:31] * glazou notes super-positive feedback from web authors on twitter about unprefixing TTA
  270. # [18:31] <ChrisL> zakim, mute me
  271. # [18:31] <Zakim> ChrisL should now be muted
  272. # [18:31] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Yeah, I need to make sure a few things is up-to-date.
  273. # [18:31] * ChrisL traffic noise
  274. # [18:31] <TabAtkins> florianr: I'm okay with it if those are changed.
  275. # [18:32] <TabAtkins> dbaron: I think it might be important that the doc be a little clearer about what the big table with checkmarks mean.
  276. # [18:32] <ChrisL> Bert is on vacation, I will handle the publication
  277. # [18:32] <TabAtkins> dbaron: It's saying that these properties handle the other models.
  278. # [18:32] <glazou> this document has the best images in a CSS spec ever :-D
  279. # [18:32] <TabAtkins> dbaron: It shoudl probably be clear that the extensions are hypothetical currently, but it's still not entirely sure how they'll work.
  280. # [18:33] <TabAtkins> dbaron: I just don't want people to try and implement these for layout models we haven't discussed yet, based on the little amount of information in this doc.
  281. # [18:33] <TabAtkins> fantasai: This is a draft, and it does state what happens in the other layout models.
  282. # [18:33] <TabAtkins> florianr: We agree on the general ideas for how it applies to Block, but not yet the details.
  283. # [18:34] <rbetts> I agree with glazou. Super helpful illustrations.
  284. # [18:35] <TabAtkins> dbaron: Some details seem to have been filled in since the f2f.
  285. # [18:35] <TabAtkins> fantasai: It hasn't been changed since then, only naming.
  286. # [18:35] <TabAtkins> fantasai: I can remove the properties, or...?
  287. # [18:35] <fantasai> s/properties/details/
  288. # [18:35] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: (and florian) just put in an issue about Block and Table not yet being finished.
  289. # [18:36] <glazou> http://www.w3.org/mid/5F1E71885C2346FAABB7AB84C4AA7E3B@FREMYD2
  290. # [18:36] <TabAtkins> RESOLVED: Publish FPWD of Box Align, with corrections + note about how Block and Table interaction is still uncertain.
  291. # [18:36] <nimbu> ScribeNick: divya
  292. # [18:36] <nimbu> ScribeNick: nimbu
  293. # [18:36] <nimbu> TabAtkins: couple of changes i want to make in vars
  294. # [18:36] * bradk still thinks it is extremely confusing that 'align' means a different axis than with 'text-align', and that 'justify' means something not even close to the common meaning of 'justify' in 'text-align:justify'.
  295. # [18:37] <nimbu> TabAtkins: the reason why i presented int he form i did, because it required least amount of syntax additions, so we can focus on ideas itself
  296. # [18:37] <nimbu> TabAtkins: i always wanted something similar
  297. # [18:37] * Parts: jet (jet@67.169.43.128)
  298. # [18:37] <nimbu> TabAtkins: feedback privately from some people in the group that something simpler like a $ sign would be more desirable.
  299. # [18:37] * sylvaing agrees with bradk. Has had a super hard time following discussions due to the terminology.
  300. # [18:37] <nimbu> TabAtkins: changed draft to incorporate that, but it is not permanent
  301. # [18:37] <nimbu> TabAtkins: var properties are still defined with var-foo, but I would prefer it as $foo, the vars are used as $foo.
  302. # [18:38] <nimbu> TabAtkins: the var f() exists if you wantto provide default values for vars, and outside of parent f() to refer to inherited values.
  303. # [18:38] <nimbu> TabAtkins: the big discussion has been going on what kind of syntax
  304. # [18:38] <nimbu> TabAtkins: some people vocally dislike $ sign and have been playing around with other syntaxes
  305. # [18:39] <nimbu> TabAtkins: I prefer using $ sign for usage, i would like to use $ sign for property defn as well
  306. # [18:39] <ChrisL> q+
  307. # [18:39] * Zakim sees ChrisL on the speaker queue
  308. # [18:39] <nimbu> glazou: it seems to me $ would conflict with css preprocessors.
  309. # [18:39] <ChrisL> zakim, unmute me
  310. # [18:39] <Zakim> ChrisL should no longer be muted
  311. # [18:39] <nimbu> TabAtkins: the maintainer of sass has mentioned that we shouldnt care about compatibility of css with sass.
  312. # [18:39] <glazou> Zakim, ack ChrisL
  313. # [18:39] <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
  314. # [18:39] <florianr> q+
  315. # [18:39] * Zakim sees florianr on the speaker queue
  316. # [18:39] <nimbu> ChrisL: i was gonna say what TabAtkins just said.
  317. # [18:40] <nimbu> TabAtkins: there are other langs like using php to write css, in my experience it is not an issue.
  318. # [18:40] <glazou> Zakim, ack florianr
  319. # [18:40] <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
  320. # [18:40] <nimbu> TabAtkins: it only happens if you are using string interpolation.
  321. # [18:40] <nimbu> florianr: 3 reasons for disagreeing.
  322. # [18:40] <nimbu> florianr: yes, sass is willing to be fixed, but it is an open set.
  323. # [18:40] <tantek> with PHP, just be sure to use single quotes ' ' rather than double quotes " " in order to avoid processing of $ variables
  324. # [18:40] * sylvaing if florian has only 3 reasons to disagree it must be pretty good...
  325. # [18:40] <nimbu> florianr: since we have an alternative why break things.
  326. # [18:41] <nimbu> florianr: i am under the impression that threre is a large overlap between people who want to use $ and the set of people who think we should use $ in property names and places other than values.
  327. # [18:41] <nimbu> florianr: because they behave diff it is a good thing they look different
  328. # [18:41] <bradk> Let's use the euro symbol instead of the dollar sign.
  329. # [18:42] <nimbu> florianr: you would introduce another f() to do var inherit, if we have to have a f() anyway, i would just have that syntax rather than multiple mechanisms.
  330. # [18:42] <nimbu> florianr: the way it was initially proposed, still look best to me.
  331. # [18:42] <nimbu> q+
  332. # [18:42] * Zakim sees nimbu on the speaker queue
  333. # [18:42] <fantasai> florian+
  334. # [18:42] <tantek> tabatkins+
  335. # [18:42] <nimbu> TabAtkins: if people are confused they will immediately realise that it doesnt work.
  336. # [18:43] <nimbu> florianr: it doesnt mean that they would immediately understand why
  337. # [18:43] <nimbu> TabAtkins: it is not even confusing, you define a variable it looks like this, if you try to use variable as property name, it is not something that is possible to confuse
  338. # [18:43] <nimbu> florianr: it is possible to be ocnfused not be misused.
  339. # [18:43] <tantek> I agree that any such confusion would be brief.
  340. # [18:43] <nimbu> fantasai: is the goal to summarize or to decide?
  341. # [18:44] <sylvaing> bradk, that's still a currency symbol? *cough*
  342. # [18:44] <nimbu> fantasai: i guess the discussion has been summarized
  343. # [18:44] <nimbu> q-
  344. # [18:44] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  345. # [18:44] <nimbu> glazou: lets move on.
  346. # [18:44] <nimbu> TabAtkins: you wanna take on the scribing? :)
  347. # [18:44] <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/topics?datasrt=&dataflt[]=spec%3Dcss3-flexbox
  348. # [18:44] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/topics/flex-initial-value
  349. # [18:44] <TabAtkins> ScribeNick: tantek
  350. # [18:44] <TabAtkins> ScribeNick: TabAtkins
  351. # [18:44] <TabAtkins> Topic: Flexbox
  352. # [18:44] <TabAtkins> fantasai: First is to discuss the initial value fo the 'flex' proeprty.
  353. # [18:45] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Ojan was unhappy with our f2f decision to make them flexible by default.
  354. # [18:45] <TabAtkins> fantasai: The thread produced three possibilities - one we rejected in hamburg, one we accepted, and a third one that seems to have consensus now.
  355. # [18:45] * Joins: tantek_ (tantek@50.0.92.247)
  356. # [18:45] <TabAtkins> fantasai: The issue is that, if the items are inflexible by default, you can either use the alignment props, auto margins, or flex, and all of these are one step away.
  357. # [18:46] * Quits: tantek (tantek@50.0.92.247) (Connection reset by peer)
  358. # [18:46] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
  359. # [18:46] <TabAtkins> fantasai: The disadvantage is that if you don't have negative-flex by default, you'll run into overflow situations in a lot of situations where you weren't thinking about narrow screens.
  360. # [18:46] <TabAtkins> fantasai: So having negative flex on by default protects users somewhat.
  361. # [18:47] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Another disadvantage is that, in the cross direcction, the default is "stretch", which is like flexing, so it would be inconsistent.
  362. # [18:47] <TabAtkins> fantasai: We talked about this on the list, and it turns out you get more pros and less cons if you make the initial value "0 1 auto", inflexible in growth situations but flexible in shrink situations.
  363. # [18:48] <TabAtkins> fantasai: The only con that's left is that it's inconsistent with "stretch" in the cross dimension, but that doesn't seem to be a big deal.
  364. # [18:48] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  365. # [18:48] <TabAtkins> fantasai: The mailing list seems to mostly lean toward the new behavior.
  366. # [18:48] <alexmog_> zakim, microsoft has me
  367. # [18:48] <Zakim> +alexmog_; got it
  368. # [18:49] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: Among the implementors and editors, there were no strong objections, one favoring current behavior, and the rest favoring new behavior.
  369. # [18:49] <TabAtkins> alexmog_: I ahve one problem with the new defaults - there is no keyword for whatever this is.
  370. # [18:49] <TabAtkins> alexmog_: I think if we like this, we should have a keyword for it.
  371. # [18:49] <TabAtkins> fantasai: The keyword for that is "initial". We can put it into the "common values for flex" section.
  372. # [18:50] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-flexbox/#flex-examples
  373. # [18:50] <fantasai> "flex: initial"
  374. # [18:50] <TabAtkins> alexmog_: Usually the smart default is called "auto". If that's not applicable here, maybe we shouldn't add it.
  375. # [18:50] <TabAtkins> fantasai: It's important to make it easy to get realtive flex - it should be 1 keyword.
  376. # [18:50] <TabAtkins> alexmog_: It might work if all of these defaults remain defaults in flex contents.
  377. # [18:51] <TabAtkins> alexmog_: So "flex:auto" means "0 1 auto", while "flex:1" means "flex: 1 1 auto".
  378. # [18:51] <TabAtkins> antonp: I think I agree here.
  379. # [18:51] <TabAtkins> antonp: There's no reason your shortcut can't be a bit clever.
  380. # [18:52] <TabAtkins> fantasai: We already do some magic - "flex:1" sets flex-basis to 0.
  381. # [18:52] <TabAtkins> fantasai: I would rather have the basis set by itself consistently set flex to 1 instead of having the "auto" keyword set it to 0.
  382. # [18:53] <TabAtkins> alexmog_: I just think that too much magic makes it difficult to use. I'd much prefer shorthands to set what I specify, and use defaults for whatever I don't specify.
  383. # [18:53] <TabAtkins> fantasai: I like the current shorthand behavior.
  384. # [18:53] <tantek> glazou, plinss - aside: re: which mailing list for Fullscreen - I am ok with public-webapps per Art Barstow's suggestion.
  385. # [18:53] <TabAtkins> alexmog_: But not the initial values?
  386. # [18:54] <glazou> tantek: please say by email
  387. # [18:54] <TabAtkins> fantasai: I think the initial values could possibly change. But I think this is limited magic. If you set only the flex-grow, it gives a special flex-basis. If you set only the flex-basis, it gives a special flex-grow.
  388. # [18:54] <tantek> glazou - will do
  389. # [18:54] <glazou> thanks
  390. # [18:54] <TabAtkins> alexmog_: Pretty much every use of flexbox I've seen has flex explicitly specified on every element.
  391. # [18:55] <TabAtkins> alexmog_: If they want default behavior, they'll have to remember how to set that.
  392. # [18:55] <TabAtkins> fantasai: They just use 'initial'.
  393. # [18:55] * sylvaing do we use initial anywhere else right now?
  394. # [18:55] * TabAtkins sylvain, it's a global keyword. ^_^
  395. # [18:55] * sylvaing yeah, but does anyone support it?
  396. # [18:56] * glazou has the impression we're running in circles here
  397. # [18:56] * sylvaing sure don't see it in stylesheets
  398. # [18:56] <TabAtkins> fantasai: I think authors will just learn to use "initial" here for this behavior.
  399. # [18:56] <sylvaing> does not like depending on a keyword that is totally new for most authors and is not well supported elsewhere
  400. # [18:56] <sylvaing> "just use this global keyword that...doesn't really work anywhere else for now"
  401. # [18:56] <TabAtkins> alexmog_: I don't think anyone is really against it - I'm just slightly uncomfortable with new defaults.
  402. # [18:57] <TabAtkins> antonp: Someone said on the mailing list that shouldn't the default be "do very little"?
  403. # [18:57] * sylvaing glazou, technically it's a cycle()
  404. # [18:57] <TabAtkins> fantasai: We rejected that - having negative flex on by default helps users when the author wasn't thinking about things like narrow screens.
  405. # [18:58] * glazou stiff neck alert
  406. # [18:58] <TabAtkins> alexmog_: If we don't have it stretch by default in the main axis, could we change back to 'start' for cross-alignment?
  407. # [18:58] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: It was that way - I changed it to 'stretch' based on your feedback that we shoudl be consistent with the old draft. I'm fine either way.
  408. # [18:59] <ChrisL> zakim, mute me
  409. # [18:59] <Zakim> ChrisL should now be muted
  410. # [18:59] <TabAtkins> florianr: One debate at a time, please?
  411. # [18:59] * ChrisL we do indeeed in the tree outside my window. sorry
  412. # [18:59] <glazou> LOL
  413. # [18:59] <SteveZ> Abstain and dropping off
  414. # [18:59] * sylvaing pigeon in the background wants to rename all the property things
  415. # [18:59] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  416. # [18:59] <TabAtkins> Options:
  417. # [19:00] <glazou> Zakim, who is on the phone ?
  418. # [19:00] <Zakim> On the phone I see sylvaing, glazou, plinss, glenn (muted), fantasai, antonp, dbaron, [Apple], CesarAcebal, Rossen, rbetts, stearns, TabAtkins_, arronei_, smfr, ??P11, bradk,
  419. # [19:00] <Zakim> ... nimbu, ChrisL (muted), florianr.a, tantek, koji, [Microsoft]
  420. # [19:00] <Zakim> [Apple] has hober
  421. # [19:00] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has alexmog_
  422. # [19:00] <TabAtkins> A: Keep current behavior (initival value of flex is "1 1 auto").
  423. # [19:00] <TabAtkins> B: Change current behavior to be non-flexible by default (initial value of flex is "0 1 auto")
  424. # [19:00] <stearns> abstain (if we take votes by IRC as well it could go faster)
  425. # [19:00] <fantasai> Ojan and dholbert on the mailing list chose B
  426. # [19:00] <nimbu> abstain
  427. # [19:01] <TabAtkins> sylvaing: A
  428. # [19:01] <TabAtkins> glazou: abstain
  429. # [19:01] <TabAtkins> plinss: abs
  430. # [19:01] <tantek> tantek: abstain
  431. # [19:01] <ChrisL> abstain
  432. # [19:01] <TabAtkins> fantasai: B
  433. # [19:01] <TabAtkins> antonp: abstain
  434. # [19:01] <dbaron> dbaron: abstain
  435. # [19:01] <arronei_> arronei: abstain
  436. # [19:01] <TabAtkins> hober: abstain
  437. # [19:01] <TabAtkins> CesarAcebal: abstain
  438. # [19:01] * ChrisL abstain is winning!
  439. # [19:01] <TabAtkins> Rossen: A
  440. # [19:01] <TabAtkins> rbetts: A
  441. # [19:01] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: B
  442. # [19:02] <TabAtkins> smfr: abstain
  443. # [19:02] * sylvaing RESOLVED: specification abstains
  444. # [19:02] <TabAtkins> bradk: abstain
  445. # [19:02] <tantek> ChrisL - abstain winning = leave to editor's choice IMHO.
  446. # [19:02] <antonp> webkit-abstain?
  447. # [19:02] <TabAtkins> florianr: B
  448. # [19:02] * sylvaing new global keyword is born: abstain
  449. # [19:02] <TabAtkins> alexmog_: A
  450. # [19:03] <tantek> <aside>glazou, plinss - email sent re: Fullscreen. thanks for your consideration.</aside>
  451. # [19:03] * ChrisL editor deathmatch, excellent
  452. # [19:03] * sylvaing flex: abstain; // engine picks something
  453. # [19:04] <rbetts> I can live with B.
  454. # [19:04] <TabAtkins> glazou: The people who want A, can you live with B?
  455. # [19:05] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/topics/css3-flexbox-default-shrink-when-grow-is-0
  456. # [19:05] <glazou> woof
  457. # [19:06] <TabAtkins> RESOLVED: initial value of 'flex' is "0 1 auto", editors to decide details among themselves.
  458. # [19:06] <fantasai> flex: 0 1 auto
  459. # [19:06] <fantasai> flex: 0 auto
  460. # [19:06] <Zakim> -ChrisL
  461. # [19:06] <glenn> abstain on prior straw poll
  462. # [19:07] <TabAtkins> fantasai: REquest was to make a flex value of "0" be special - instead of setting flex-shrink to 1 (its initial value), set it to 0 as well.
  463. # [19:07] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Given the choice we just made, I think we should reverse that, and make omitted flex-shrink always take its initial value.
  464. # [19:08] <fantasai> Alex: makes sense
  465. # [19:08] <TabAtkins> RESOLVED: Reverse the f2f decision, make omitted flex-shrink in the flex shorthand always use the initial value.
  466. # [19:08] <tantek> go LC!
  467. # [19:08] <TabAtkins> Topic: Publish Flexbox as LC?
  468. # [19:08] <fantasai> RESOLVED: no change to flex shorthanding due to that previous issue
  469. # [19:08] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: We're okay with the remaining issues.
  470. # [19:08] <Zakim> -dbaron
  471. # [19:08] <Zakim> -rbetts
  472. # [19:08] <Zakim> -Rossen
  473. # [19:08] <Zakim> -glazou
  474. # [19:08] <Zakim> -stearns
  475. # [19:08] <Zakim> -tantek
  476. # [19:08] <Zakim> -smfr
  477. # [19:08] <Zakim> -sylvaing
  478. # [19:08] <Zakim> -antonp
  479. # [19:08] <TabAtkins> RESOLVED: Publish Flexbox as LC.
  480. # [19:09] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  481. # [19:09] <nimbu> HURRAY
  482. # [19:09] <Zakim> -koji
  483. # [19:09] * Parts: nimbu (Adium@192.150.10.200)
  484. # [19:09] <Zakim> -CesarAcebal
  485. # [19:09] <Zakim> -[Apple]
  486. # [19:09] * Quits: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19) (Quit: glazou)
  487. # [19:09] <Zakim> -plinss
  488. # [19:09] <Zakim> -bradk
  489. # [19:09] * Quits: smfr (smfr@173.228.90.229) (Quit: smfr)
  490. # [19:09] <Zakim> -glenn
  491. # [19:09] <Zakim> -florianr.a
  492. # [19:10] <fantasai> ChrisL: If Tab and I can turn this around in a few hours and get it on your desk by tomorrow morning, pubrules-checked... can you publish tomorrow?
  493. # [19:10] <Zakim> -arronei_
  494. # [19:10] * Quits: arronei_ (Arron@24.17.123.244) (Quit: arronei_)
  495. # [19:10] * Quits: vhardy__ (vhardy@192.150.10.201) (Quit: vhardy__)
  496. # [19:11] <ChrisL> no, it needs 24 hours notice
  497. # [19:11] * Quits: CesarAcebal (acebal@85.152.178.157) (Quit: CesarAcebal)
  498. # [19:11] * Joins: vhardy__ (vhardy@192.150.10.201)
  499. # [19:12] <ChrisL> in other words there needs to be a publication request and pubrules-compliant =ddocuments in place on wednesday morning (france time) for a thursday morning publication
  500. # [19:12] <antonp> folks, you didn't minute the resolution to go to LC
  501. # [19:13] <ChrisL> anton, I see a minuted resolution on IRC
  502. # [19:13] <antonp> oops sorry, i see it lower down
  503. # [19:14] <antonp> great! and good result :-)
  504. # [19:14] * Parts: antonp (50a94e63@207.192.75.252)
  505. # [19:14] * Quits: florianr (florianr@213.236.208.22) (Quit: Leaving.)
  506. # [19:15] * Joins: krit (krit@24.6.231.253)
  507. # [19:15] * Quits: rbetts (rbetts@192.150.10.201) (Quit: rbetts)
  508. # [19:15] * Quits: bradk (bradk@99.7.175.117) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep)
  509. # [19:18] * sylvaing is now known as sylvaing_away
  510. # [19:18] * Quits: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.169) (Quit: Fire on main board error, client combusted)
  511. # [19:24] * sylvaing_away is now known as sylvaing
  512. # [19:28] * Quits: koji (koji@222.158.227.129) (Quit: Leaving...)
  513. # [19:31] * Quits: vhardy__ (vhardy@192.150.10.201) (Quit: vhardy__)
  514. # [19:34] <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/visuren.html#phantom-line-box
  515. # [19:35] * Joins: vhardy_ (vhardy@192.150.10.201)
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  518. # [19:43] * Parts: oyvind (oyvinds@213.236.208.22)
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  521. # [19:56] * Quits: danielfilho (danielfilh@187.31.77.7) (Quit: </html>)
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  523. # [20:03] * Quits: SimonSapin (simon@82.232.219.95) (Ping timeout)
  524. # [20:06] <Zakim> -TabAtkins_
  525. # [20:06] <Zakim> -fantasai
  526. # [20:09] <Zakim> -??P11
  527. # [20:12] * Quits: Rossen (Rossen@131.107.192.20) (Quit: Rossen)
  528. # [20:14] <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, nimbu, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
  529. # [20:15] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  530. # [20:15] <Zakim> Attendees were sylvaing, glazou, plinss, glenn, fantasai, +1.206.675.aaaa, antonp, dbaron, florianr, hober, +34.60.94.aabb, Rossen, CesarAcebal, stearns, rbetts, SteveZ,
  531. # [20:15] <Zakim> ... TabAtkins_, +1.253.307.aacc, arronei_, smfr, bradk, +1.415.617.aadd, ChrisL, tantek, nimbu, koji, alexmog_
  532. # [20:15] <fantasai> TabAtkins: we need a changes section
  533. # [20:15] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Ah, right.
  534. # [20:15] <TabAtkins> Just put in a list with a single bullet point "* everything"
  535. # [20:16] <TabAtkins> Do you want a list here, or should I edit the spec?
  536. # [20:17] <TabAtkins> Since you'll either have to hand-insert it into Overview.html or re-do your fixes, I'm not sure which is better.
  537. # [20:17] <TabAtkins> Also: are we just doing changes since last WD?
  538. # [20:19] <fantasai> yes, only since last WD
  539. # [20:19] <TabAtkins> Okay, so:
  540. # [20:19] <TabAtkins> * name of the 'display' values were changed to ''flex'' and ''inline-flex''
  541. # [20:19] <TabAtkins> * replaced elements are now guaranteed to be flexbox items, even if they're replaced with inline content
  542. # [20:20] <TabAtkins> * made ''visiblity:collapse'' have an effect
  543. # [20:20] <TabAtkins> * added "min-size: auto"
  544. # [20:21] <TabAtkins> * changed the defaults of 'flex'
  545. # [20:21] <TabAtkins> * turned 'flex' into a shorthand, with longhands of 'flex-grow/shrink/basis'
  546. # [20:21] <TabAtkins> * Renamed all the alignment properties
  547. # [20:21] <TabAtkins> * and some of their values
  548. # [20:22] <TabAtkins> * made negative flexibility relative to the base size of items in addition to the flex shrink ratio
  549. # [20:22] <TabAtkins> * Specified the page layout algorithm
  550. # [20:22] <TabAtkins> * Edits and clarifications to the flex layout algorithm
  551. # [20:22] <TabAtkins> I think that's it.
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  557. # [20:45] <fantasai> TabAtkins: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-flexbox/#changes
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  571. # [21:54] <TabAtkins> fantasai: I just remembered that "flex:initial" can't work that way.
  572. # [21:54] <TabAtkins> A shorthand just passes "initial" down to its longhands.
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  574. # [21:56] <TabAtkins> Unless we special-case this somehow.
  575. # [21:56] <TabAtkins> brb
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  585. # [22:33] <fantasai> TabAtkins: And that doesn't work why?
  586. # [22:33] <TabAtkins> Because I'm dumb and confused myself?
  587. # [22:34] <fantasai> lol
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  595. # Session Close: Thu Jun 07 00:00:00 2012

The end :)