/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2012-06-10 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Jun 10 00:00:01 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  12. # [06:43] <koji> fantasai: ping
  13. # [06:56] <fantasai> koji: pong
  14. # [06:57] <fantasai> koji: So, I think we could use some data on whether single or double quotes are more common in Chinese
  15. # [06:57] * Quits: tantek (tantek@50.0.92.247) (Quit: tantek)
  16. # [06:57] <fantasai> koji: If single quotes are less common, then maybe it's ok to make them sideways
  17. # [06:58] <fantasai> koji: And that handles apostrophes
  18. # [06:58] <koji> fantasai: let me see some PDFs I have
  19. # [07:00] <fantasai> maybe i should make another trip to Chinatown :)
  20. # [07:00] <koji> I like that :)
  21. # [07:00] <koji> I searched for MacFan 2011/3
  22. # [07:01] <koji> 5 or 6 U+2019 found, all in horizontal flow only
  23. # [07:02] <koji> Maybe girl's magazine could use more apostrophe for French names etc., but I don't have such PDF :|
  24. # [07:03] <fantasai> lol
  25. # [07:03] <fantasai> It's not even just French, English uses 's for the possessive
  26. # [07:03] <koji> I'm leaning to make single/double to Tu
  27. # [07:04] <koji> and I don't care the rest but I understand people wants consistent, so probably all to Tu
  28. # [07:04] <koji> Also wondering if we have any other data we can investigate within a day or less...
  29. # [07:06] <koji> I suspect
  30. # [07:06] <koji> The guy who attended EPUB mtg at Taiwan and came to CSS F2F once
  31. # [07:06] <koji> were working digital archive library in EPUB
  32. # [07:07] <koji> ...thought they already rely on Tu behavior but that's too qiuck
  33. # [07:07] <koji> because today's webkit sets R
  34. # [07:08] <fantasai> right..
  35. # [07:11] <koji> Maybe I'm biased to Tu for my wish, I'm trying not to think about that but
  36. # [07:12] <koji> I can't think saying Chinese that they should markup with upright because Japanese fonts are broken is PC
  37. # [07:12] <fantasai> heh
  38. # [07:13] <fantasai> well, from Unicode perspective they're supposed to be using different codepoints
  39. # [07:15] <koji> I'm ok to follow policies if there were any good workaround
  40. # [07:16] <koji> Possibly by the time Chinese market emerges, @text-transform is ready
  41. # [07:16] * fantasai switches the browser's language headers to zh-TW and looks for conent
  42. # [07:16] <fantasai> koji: that would be handy :)
  43. # [07:16] <koji> Oh, that sounds good
  44. # [07:23] <koji> Both usages exist in wiki: http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%BC%95%E5%8F%B7
  45. # [07:23] <koji> Both I mean, native and Latin
  46. # [07:23] <fantasai> I'm seeing mostly quotes like 「基民」
  47. # [07:25] <fantasai> I found some double quotes
  48. # [07:25] <fantasai> no single quotes yet
  49. # [07:26] <koji> It needs to be quotes within quotes, if the rule is the same as Japanese
  50. # [07:26] <koji> ...is it same in Latin?
  51. # [07:26] <fantasai> depends
  52. # [07:26] <fantasai> Some traditions use single quotes inside double quotes
  53. # [07:27] <fantasai> other tradition use double qoutes inside single quotes
  54. # [07:27] <fantasai> (so single quotes is the default)
  55. # [07:27] <koji> Interesting
  56. # [07:27] <koji> Example 2 of wiki has nested quotes, but you want the real example?
  57. # [07:27] <fantasai> Xinhua uses double quotes
  58. # [07:28] <fantasai> If single quotes is only used for quotes within quotes
  59. # [07:28] <fantasai> then it's pretty uncommon
  60. # [07:28] * fantasai notes Xinhua is the PRC newspaper
  61. # [07:28] <koji> ah
  62. # [07:29] <fantasai> tw.yahoo.com uses 「
  63. # [07:29] <fantasai> 」
  64. # [07:29] * fantasai looks at news.google.com.tw
  65. # [07:30] <fantasai> Chinatimes.com uses same
  66. # [07:31] <koji> Newspaper tends to follow more in tradition, and its source are likely to be in vertical
  67. # [07:31] <koji> Same at www.yomiuri.co.jp
  68. # [07:31] <fantasai> yeah
  69. # [07:31] <fantasai> cnyes.com also uses the same
  70. # [07:31] <fantasai> and also BBC
  71. # [07:32] <fantasai> And they're using the correct codepoints
  72. # [07:33] <koji> double quotes at http://3c.msn.com.tw/View.aspx?ArticleID=66474
  73. # [07:34] <koji> which uses brackets in the same article, when to use quotes and when to brackets isn't clear
  74. # [07:34] <fantasai> both styles , actually :)
  75. # [07:34] <fantasai> yeah
  76. # [07:35] <fantasai> Given Taiwanese sources seem to be comfortable using the correct codepoints
  77. # [07:35] <koji> I wish search engines don't normalize punctuation :)
  78. # [07:36] <fantasai> Seems like we don't need to worry about them depending on double quotes transforming into bracket quotes
  79. # [07:36] <fantasai> via font substitution
  80. # [07:37] <koji> by "correct codepoints" what do you mean?
  81. # [07:37] <fantasai> U+300C
  82. # [07:38] <koji> ah, yeah, but things we can find on the web is supposed to be read in horizontal, right?
  83. # [07:38] <fantasai> yes
  84. # [07:38] <fantasai> which makes it *more* likely that they'd be using double quotes!
  85. # [07:38] <fantasai> but we're not seeing it much
  86. # [07:38] <koji> I see your points
  87. # [07:39] <koji> Maybe blogs are different from these professional writings
  88. # [07:39] <fantasai> maybe
  89. # [07:39] * fantasai wonders how to find them
  90. # [07:39] <koji> Quotes are imported one, professional editors don't use much in Japan too
  91. # [07:39] <koji> yeah
  92. # [07:41] <koji> "網誌" in Google is blog search
  93. # [07:43] <koji> ...most of them are talking about shell, javascript, php :)
  94. # [07:47] <koji> Google translation to Japanese doesn't make much sense but can't find how to translate to English: http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_77f02c450101533q.html
  95. # [07:49] <fantasai> /me used babelfish
  96. # [07:50] <fantasai> sounds like it's complaining about ascii quotes being ambiguous
  97. # [07:50] <koji> yeah, don't use and replace before you publish?
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  99. # [07:50] <fantasai> yeah
  100. # [07:51] <koji> "pair" is probably talking about Word's feature--English Word determines direction by existence of space
  101. # [07:51] <koji> But EA Word changed the logic to look for pairs because EA scripts don't use spaces
  102. # [07:51] <koji> So odd occurance in a paragraph is automatically changed to open
  103. # [07:52] <koji> and even to close
  104. # [07:52] <koji> but can't read in what case it can cause problems to Chinese
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  106. # [07:54] <koji> Maybe too quick but blogs tend to use quotes than brackets? no? http://hi.baidu.com/xingyuhann/blog/item/f945aaf8565fdd5e252df2ad.html
  107. # [07:55] <koji> Can't find single, but several doubles http://snake88888888.blog.163.com/blog/static/128766735200994112349224/
  108. # [07:56] <koji> The above one uses quites-in-quotes but use double for both
  109. # [08:04] <fantasai> interesting
  110. # [08:05] <fantasai> I'm still thinking double=T, single=R is the best option
  111. # [08:06] <koji> Yeah
  112. # [08:06] <koji> double=Tu I agree, I see more usage than expected in native context
  113. # [08:07] <koji> and less worried about single, so I'm fine to follow you, bu
  114. # [08:07] <koji> woun't someone say they should be consistent?
  115. # [08:10] <koji> can't find any use of single
  116. # [08:12] <fantasai> It's inconsistent, because apos makes it inconsistent
  117. # [08:12] <koji> Yeah, I understand that
  118. # [08:13] <koji> I don't know if we can convince everyone because I don't agree with them...
  119. # [08:13] <fantasai> heh
  120. # [08:14] <koji> and more importantly, no idea what Eric and Laurentiau would think
  121. # [08:14] <fantasai> well, we can present the data and try
  122. # [08:14] <fantasai> yes, we need to hear back from MS on this
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  124. # [08:15] <koji> But I need to finalize data tonight...
  125. # [08:18] <koji> They set to Tr originally, with their understanding of Tr,
  126. # [08:18] <koji> which probably change orientation by fonts,
  127. # [08:18] <koji> so Tu with vert, and R without
  128. # [08:18] <koji> Probably the same understanding as Murakami-san had
  129. # [08:18] <koji> If such "switch by fonts" is not possible,
  130. # [08:18] <koji> They have to make a hard trade-offs
  131. # [08:18] <koji> Which isn't easy to predict
  132. # [08:20] <koji> hm. for people who wants consistency,
  133. # [08:20] <fantasai> (sorry, just got back home)
  134. # [08:20] <koji> all of them want consitent and R
  135. # [08:20] <koji> ok
  136. # [08:20] <fantasai> I'm ok with R
  137. # [08:20] <koji> I know :)
  138. # [08:21] <fantasai> So
  139. # [08:21] <fantasai> for tonight
  140. # [08:21] <fantasai> the question is
  141. # [08:21] <fantasai> What's safest?
  142. # [08:21] <koji> I mean, they'd complain if we make double Tu too
  143. # [08:21] <koji> that's the question, and is tough
  144. # [08:21] <fantasai> R is most consistent
  145. # [08:22] <fantasai> But if people depend on it and we change, how bad is that?
  146. # [08:22] <koji> yeah
  147. # [08:22] <fantasai> Tu is less consistent
  148. # [08:22] <fantasai> If people depend on it and we change, how bad is that?
  149. # [08:22] <koji> well
  150. # [08:22] <fantasai> Which choice will leave fewest people broken if it changes?
  151. # [08:22] <koji> all quotes in muti-lingual usage will be broken, right?
  152. # [08:22] <fantasai> Maybe that's the best choice for now.
  153. # [08:23] <koji> ahhh
  154. # [08:23] <fantasai> My understanding is that quotation marks belong to the language doing the quoting, not the language of the quotation.
  155. # [08:23] <koji> small vs small again :)
  156. # [08:23] <fantasai> So if Chinese is quoting English, quotes should be Chinese
  157. # [08:23] <fantasai> Quotes inside quotes are rare
  158. # [08:23] <fantasai> but apostrophes inside Latin are not
  159. # [08:24] <fantasai> If we go with Tu, they'll be broken in Japanese fonts, because they don't have vert
  160. # [08:24] <fantasai> but will work better for Chinese, because they have vert
  161. # [08:24] <koji> yeah
  162. # [08:25] <fantasai> bbiab
  163. # [08:26] * fantasai has to set someone up with stuff they need
  164. # [08:26] <koji> ok
  165. # [08:29] <fantasai> seems to me for Japanese market...
  166. # [08:29] <fantasai> if we set T, then it's broken, and people will use text-orientation: sideways
  167. # [08:29] <fantasai> if it changes to R later, then it still works
  168. # [08:30] <koji> yeah
  169. # [08:30] <fantasai> if we set to R, people might depend on it
  170. # [08:30] <fantasai> Opposite happens in Chinese market
  171. # [08:30] <fantasai> if we set T, then it works perfect
  172. # [08:30] <fantasai> and people won't use text-orientation: upright
  173. # [08:30] <fantasai> if it changes to R later, then it breaks
  174. # [08:30] <koji> yeah
  175. # [08:31] <koji> I'm leaning to your idea
  176. # [08:31] <koji> I guess
  177. # [08:31] <koji> Both Eric and Laurentiu are working on real-market enough that
  178. # [08:31] <koji> The real usage wins over theoritical consistency
  179. # [08:32] <koji> and I like such way to think too
  180. # [08:33] <koji> U+2018-201B to R, and U+201C-201F to Tu
  181. # [08:36] <koji> and 301D-301F Tu (we agreed, but UTR is still Tr, we can ignore for now though)
  182. # [08:38] <fantasai> They're both U in our tables anyway
  183. # [08:38] <fantasai> if we go with simplified version
  184. # [08:38] <fantasai> So that won't count as a difference
  185. # [08:39] <fantasai> I do agree with Murakami-san that if you're going to do a fallback in the case of missing vert, that R is better
  186. # [08:39] <fantasai> But we don't have that distinction in the classifications yet
  187. # [08:40] <koji> Yeah
  188. # [08:40] <koji> I agree too
  189. # [08:41] <koji> But I don't think Mozilla or WebKit can implement font-dependent orientations
  190. # [08:42] <koji> You remember that I had strong wish to make it font dependent, don't you
  191. # [08:42] <fantasai> yes
  192. # [08:43] <fantasai> ok, so should I draft an email to Addison about this?
  193. # [08:43] <koji> So you're ok with above?
  194. # [08:43] <koji> U+2018-201B to R, and U+201C-201F to Tu
  195. # [08:44] <fantasai> yes
  196. # [08:44] <koji> ok, let's go that way
  197. # [08:44] <koji> and for small parenthesis
  198. # [08:44] <koji> I confirmed they're just rotation
  199. # [08:44] <koji> so R would probably safer
  200. # [08:45] <fantasai> how reliable are Chinese fonts in having glyphs?
  201. # [08:45] <koji> vert glyphs?
  202. # [08:45] <fantasai> yeah
  203. # [08:45] <fantasai> for small
  204. # [08:46] <koji> HVH
  205. # [08:46] <fantasai> ok, sounds like R is the way to go..
  206. # [08:47] <koji> wonderful, we resolved all, right?
  207. # [08:47] <fantasai> I think so...
  208. # [08:47] <fantasai> Other than Meroitic Egyptian maybe :P
  209. # [08:47] <koji> ha ha
  210. # [08:48] <koji> I can warn you when content holders starts creating such documents
  211. # [08:48] <fantasai> heheh :)
  212. # [08:48] <koji> and I think we can resolve them at UTC before worrying
  213. # [08:49] <fantasai> I agree
  214. # [08:49] <koji> good, so much thank you for making time for me
  215. # [08:50] <fantasai> thank you for making time for *us* :)
  216. # [08:50] <koji> :)
  217. # [08:51] <koji> are you tired? ok?
  218. # [08:51] <fantasai> btw, did Eric's notes include the Pc changes we agreed to with MS?
  219. # [08:51] <fantasai> no, I'm good
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  221. # [08:51] * fantasai spent the entire day helping a friend debug wireless routers, so working on UTR50 is a relief
  222. # [08:51] <koji> ah...which Pc?
  223. # [08:52] <koji> FF3F is left after applying all changes recorded in minutes http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/utr50/diff20120609#pc
  224. # [08:52] <fantasai> ah, right
  225. # [08:52] <fantasai> I have no idea what to do with FF3F!
  226. # [08:53] <koji> all fonts except one (MS JhengHei, TC) have vert for FF3F
  227. # [08:53] <fantasai> what does vert look like?
  228. # [08:53] <koji> rotated
  229. # [08:54] <fantasai> ok
  230. # [08:54] <fantasai> I think what's in UTR50 is okay
  231. # [08:54] <fantasai> we could consider making R, but doesn't seem critical
  232. # [08:55] <koji> Yeah
  233. # [08:56] <koji> I have to run in 10mins
  234. # [08:56] <koji> and will work on data after I'm back
  235. # [08:56] <fantasai> ok
  236. # [08:56] <koji> Thank you a lot again!
  237. # [08:56] <fantasai> do you want me to send you a draft of my email first?
  238. # [08:56] <fantasai> you can check it over
  239. # [08:56] <koji> No, fine, you can just send
  240. # [08:57] <fantasai> ok
  241. # [08:57] <fantasai> I'll CC you
  242. # [08:57] <koji> Great, thank you
  243. # [08:58] <koji> I'll CC you when sending data when ready
  244. # [08:58] <fantasai> ok
  245. # [08:58] <koji> talk to you later!
  246. # [08:58] <fantasai> ja ne!
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  249. # [09:56] <fantasai> koji: sent
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The end :)