/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2012-07-11 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Jul 11 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  9. # [00:58] <sylvaing> somehow I missed hober blaming me for more flexbox renaming nonsense
  10. # [00:58] <sylvaing> SCANDAL
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  12. # [01:12] <hober> sylvaing: hahahahahaa
  13. # [01:12] <hober> sylvaing: hey, only nixon could go to china.
  14. # [01:14] <sylvaing> hober: did you just compare me to nixon?
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  20. # [01:24] <hober> sylvaing: you are not a crook
  21. # [01:40] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I believe there is no rule we can follow, but we could make guidelines
  22. # [01:40] <fantasai> TabAtkins: no idea on how to reword that, I'd have to think about it a bit
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  65. # [06:36] <dbaron> fantasai, I'm slightly confused that one of the issues list raised by you is marked as "rejected and no response": http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-flexbox/issues-lc-2012#issue-9
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  134. # [17:53] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/07/11-css-irc
  135. # [17:53] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.169)
  136. # [17:53] <plinss> zakim, this will be style
  137. # [17:53] <Zakim> ok, plinss; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 16 minutes
  138. # [17:59] * Joins: miketaylr (miketaylr@173.134.110.207)
  139. # [18:04] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  140. # [18:04] <Zakim> +sylvaing
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  142. # [18:05] <Zakim> +plinss
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  146. # [18:09] <Zakim> +hober
  147. # [18:09] <Zakim> +rbetts
  148. # [18:09] <Zakim> +??P37
  149. # [18:09] <glenn> zakim, ??p37 is glenn
  150. # [18:09] <Zakim> +glenn; got it
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  152. # [18:11] <Zakim> +Bert
  153. # [18:11] <Zakim> +dbaron
  154. # [18:11] <dbaron> well, Zakim is behind, but I joined (and then someone else a second later)
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  158. # [18:12] <Zakim> + +66337aaaa
  159. # [18:12] <Zakim> +smfr
  160. # [18:12] <antonp> Zakim, aaaa is me
  161. # [18:12] <JohnJansen_> Zakim, microsoft has johnjansen
  162. # [18:13] <Zakim> +fantasai
  163. # [18:13] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  164. # [18:13] <Zakim> +??P66
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  166. # [18:13] <Zakim> +antonp; got it
  167. # [18:13] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
  168. # [18:13] <Zakim> +johnjansen; got it
  169. # [18:13] <JohnJansen_> Zakim, Microsoft has JohnJansen
  170. # [18:14] * tabatkins_ will be in the call in just a moment - phone decided it wanted to upgrade its os.
  171. # [18:14] * Joins: SteveZ (chatzilla@76.126.187.234)
  172. # [18:14] <Zakim> johnjansen was already listed in [Microsoft], JohnJansen_
  173. # [18:14] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Bert (15%)
  174. # [18:14] <Zakim> +SteveZ
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  176. # [18:15] <SteveZ> Scribe: SteveZ
  177. # [18:15] <SteveZ> No Additions to Agenda
  178. # [18:16] * Bert hears no noise himself, but wonders if he needs to mute...
  179. # [18:16] <SteveZ> Topic: Animation Issues
  180. # [18:16] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
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  182. # [18:16] <Rossen> Zakim, [Microsoft.a] is me
  183. # [18:16] <SteveZ> Sylvain: Sent call for concesus to make negative duration be invalid
  184. # [18:16] <smfr> sounds fine
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  186. # [18:16] <Zakim> +Rossen; got it
  187. # [18:16] <SteveZ> Sylvain: this should have no impact
  188. # [18:17] <SteveZ> RESOLVED: negative durations are invalid
  189. # [18:17] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
  190. # [18:17] <arronei> zakim, microsoft has me
  191. # [18:17] <smfr> no
  192. # [18:17] <Zakim> +arronei; got it
  193. # [18:17] <Zakim> +??P81
  194. # [18:17] <SteveZ> Sylvain: Level 3 Animations are becoming unprefixed
  195. # [18:18] <Zakim> +ChrisL
  196. # [18:18] <florian> Zakim, I am ??81
  197. # [18:18] <Zakim> sorry, florian, I do not see a party named '??81'
  198. # [18:18] <florian> Zakim, I am ??P81
  199. # [18:18] <Zakim> +florian; got it
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  201. # [18:19] <SteveZ> RESOLVED: move Daniels feature requests for new APIs to Level 4
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  203. # [18:19] * nimbu wont be on call :(
  204. # [18:20] <SteveZ> Smfr: Should these be prefixed if an implementation is done in the next few months
  205. # [18:20] <SteveZ> Sylvain: yes, they should be prefixed
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  207. # [18:21] <Zakim> + +1.281.305.aabb
  208. # [18:21] <tabatkins_> zakim, aabb is me
  209. # [18:21] <Zakim> +tabatkins_; got it
  210. # [18:21] <SteveZ> Sylvain: if something is not yet specified then it should be prefixed when implemented
  211. # [18:21] <SteveZ> Topic: Values and Units
  212. # [18:21] <smfr> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-values/issues-lc-2012
  213. # [18:22] * Quits: kensaku (kensaku.ko@208.54.36.200) (Ping timeout)
  214. # [18:22] <oyvind> (hm, is "transition: -2s 1s" invalid? might want to clarify that)
  215. # [18:23] <SteveZ> Fantasai: Defer resolving the case issue on idents (CSS and User defined) until level 4
  216. # [18:23] <fantasai> by deferring the definition of <ident>
  217. # [18:24] <SteveZ> smfr: worried that animations may start having user ids and would not like to see these being different
  218. # [18:25] <SteveZ> fantasai: deferring does not mean not working on it; it means resolving the issue in conjunction with the active specs, like animation
  219. # [18:26] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-values/issues-lc-2012
  220. # [18:26] <SteveZ> fantasai: This means removing the type from V&U from Level 3; CSS 2.1 has its own definition for counters
  221. # [18:26] <SteveZ> RESOLVED: Deferring the type until Level 4 of V&U
  222. # [18:27] <dbaron> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-values/issues-lc-2012#issue-36
  223. # [18:27] <SteveZ> Issue 36: removing "calc" and using bear parens
  224. # [18:28] <SteveZ> Florian: stay with what we have and require "calc" inside of "calc"
  225. # [18:28] <SteveZ> Tab: Does the working group agree with the editors request to reject?
  226. # [18:29] <oyvind> s/bear/bare/
  227. # [18:29] <SteveZ> Fantasai: I prefer just using parens, but do not object to requiring "calc"
  228. # [18:29] <Zakim> +??P7
  229. # [18:29] <florian> s/calc inside of calc/the calc part of calc()/
  230. # [18:29] <koji> zakim, ??p7 is me
  231. # [18:29] <Zakim> +koji; got it
  232. # [18:29] <dbaron> multiple people said they prefer calc()
  233. # [18:30] <nimbu> (what would bare calc look like?)
  234. # [18:30] <SteveZ> RESOLVED: the request to make a change is rejected; "calc" is required
  235. # [18:30] * hober nimbu: (10px + 10%) instead of calc(10px + 10%)
  236. # [18:31] <SteveZ> Issue Change tokenization of dimenison so that the unit can longer contain a dash
  237. # [18:31] <fantasai> Issue 35, changing tokenization of DIMENSION so units can no longer contain -, and allowing white space to be dropped between +/- and operands
  238. # [18:32] <fantasai> dbaron: This is one of the top author complaints about calc(), it trips up a lot of people
  239. # [18:32] <SteveZ> Tab: there may have been prefixed units in the past and this change would invalidate this
  240. # [18:32] * nimbu thanks hober
  241. # [18:32] <fantasai> dbaron: I'm inclined to say we should try to fix it
  242. # [18:32] <fantasai> dbaron: It means we'd have a problem with keywords that have hyphens in calc(), things like min-content
  243. # [18:32] <fantasai> Tab: I really want to extend in that direciton
  244. # [18:33] <SteveZ> DBaron: This is one of the main complaints against "calc" by users; the stumble over it and do not understand why
  245. # [18:33] <fantasai> Florian: Makes the grammar more complex, but we could work around it by having different parsing rules for numeric and keyword types
  246. # [18:33] <ChrisL> that is why SVG had camelCase property names (except for ones already defined by CSS) - to avoid the hyphen being seen as a minus
  247. # [18:34] <SteveZ> Tab: This would require different tokenization for calc
  248. # [18:34] <SteveZ> Florian: This is not a huge deal
  249. # [18:34] <sylvaing> agrees with dbaron that it is a major stumbling block when learning the feature
  250. # [18:35] <SteveZ> Tab: there is only one unique tokenization today: that is an+b for nth child
  251. # [18:35] <SteveZ> Florian: the Opera lexer is already context sensitive
  252. # [18:35] * fantasai suggests not trying to figure out exact changes on this call
  253. # [18:35] <SteveZ> DBaron: OK with rejecting change because I do not have an answer for what to do
  254. # [18:36] <sylvaing> +1 to fantasai, dbaron
  255. # [18:36] * ChrisL agrees, send in a concrete proposal in email
  256. # [18:36] <SteveZ> Tab: We could conceivably change this in the future
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  259. # [18:37] <SteveZ> Sylvain: Sensitive to the usability issue, but this is not the time to make a change. We need a proposal to make it work
  260. # [18:38] <SteveZ> Florian: this can be fixed in the future without breaking existing documents
  261. # [18:38] <SteveZ> Sylvain: users can tell that their calc expressions do not work so they should not be confused about what is failing
  262. # [18:41] <SteveZ> Fantasai: we are not truly future proofed because existing browsers (e.g. IE10) do require the spaces and would no work without spaces in the future
  263. # [18:41] <SteveZ> RESOLVED: spaces are required; no change from previous resolution
  264. # [18:42] <dbaron> Bert: need to send followup email to the response to issue 22, since the response is no longer correct
  265. # [18:42] <ChrisL> agree that it is minor but needs to be closed off propoerly
  266. # [18:42] <fantasai> ACTION fantasai send followup to v&u issue 22
  267. # [18:42] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  268. # [18:42] <trackbot> Created ACTION-483 - Send followup to v&u issue 22 [on Elika Etemad - due 2012-07-18].
  269. # [18:42] <SteveZ> Bert: on Issue 22 there is a message that says the resolution is 27bits and we have changed out mind so there should be a message to say that
  270. # [18:43] <SteveZ> RESOLVED: The DoC is accepted (as edited re issue 22 above)
  271. # [18:43] * Joins: nimbu (Adium@192.150.10.200)
  272. # [18:43] <ChrisL> yay
  273. # [18:43] <SteveZ> RESOLVED: V&U is taken to CR
  274. # [18:44] <tabatkins_> zakim, who is noisy?
  275. # [18:44] <Zakim> tabatkins_, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: plinss (61%), Bert (4%), fantasai (26%)
  276. # [18:45] <SteveZ> PLinss: Expect to have a final venue by the end of this week for the San Diego meeting
  277. # [18:46] <ChrisL> my regrets for san diego
  278. # [18:46] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-flexbox/issues-lc-2012
  279. # [18:46] <sylvaing> THERE WILL BE NO MORE PROPERTY RENAMING
  280. # [18:46] <dbaron> I might be more likely to join an event on Sunday than on Thursday, but it's somewhat uncertain. (I may well have a bunch of meetings to call in to on Thursday and Friday.)
  281. # [18:46] <SteveZ> PLinss: Trying to put an event (Sailing) on Thursday; HP will contribute some, but we would need to pay to participate
  282. # [18:46] <SteveZ> Topic: Flexbox
  283. # [18:46] * sylvaing suspects plinss meant Tuesday since the meeting is Monday-Wednesday
  284. # [18:46] <SteveZ> Painting Order
  285. # [18:47] <fantasai> Issue #5
  286. # [18:47] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/topics/flex-item-painting
  287. # [18:47] * plinss meant Thursday… we'll be actually working Tuesday :-)
  288. # [18:47] <SteveZ> Issue 5: Painting order: blocks and table cells vs inline blocks
  289. # [18:48] <fantasai> alex: I think this is a more generic question, not specific to flexbox
  290. # [18:48] <fantasai> alex: applies e.g. to grid as well
  291. # [18:48] <dbaron> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Jul/0257.html
  292. # [18:48] <fantasai> alex: is every new layout model use pseudo-stacking context?
  293. # [18:48] <SteveZ> Alex: DBaron do you want it to behave like floats
  294. # [18:48] <fantasai> dbaron: I have mixed feelings about it. Would have been better if we did that originally, but maybe better to have inline-* does it and other things don't
  295. # [18:49] <fantasai> fantasai: that would decide flexbox vs. inline flexbox, but doesn't tell you about items wrt each other
  296. # [18:49] <fantasai> alex: float behavior is special, it's different from text
  297. # [18:49] <fantasai> alex: above text or below text
  298. # [18:49] <fantasai> alex: others are things that may overlap due to negative margins, etc.
  299. # [18:50] <fantasai> alex: vertical flexbox is similar to block flow, if it makes sense for block would make sense for flexboxes
  300. # [18:50] * dbaron can't hear alex all that well
  301. # [18:50] <SteveZ> Fantasai: floats needed to be above the background of items that were later in the doc tree
  302. # [18:51] <Zakim> -smfr
  303. # [18:51] <fantasai> alex: would help to have a use case that would make a difference one way or another
  304. # [18:51] * sylvaing me neither. but i can almost feel elika's keyboard!
  305. # [18:51] <SteveZ> DBaron: I do not have a use case that would distiguish either way
  306. # [18:51] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  307. # [18:51] * Quits: JohnJansen_ (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
  308. # [18:52] <SteveZ> Fantasai: I cannot think of a single use case that would be better with block behavior: I would say it should be a Pseudo-stacking context
  309. # [18:53] <SteveZ> Fantasai: I have a flex-box with a bunch of cars that overlap a bit and I expand the size of the one that the use if hovering over
  310. # [18:53] <SteveZ> s/use/user/
  311. # [18:54] * Parts: oyvind (oyvinds@91.203.97.251)
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  313. # [18:55] <SteveZ> Anton: We are going to see that the pieces are basically independent of each (say in grid)
  314. # [18:55] <fantasai> Anton: block layout, you don't really see the individual blocks, you see the content as a continuous flow
  315. # [18:56] <SteveZ> Anton: I have yet to grasp the range of use case for flex-box and cannot yet see how flex-box should behave:
  316. # [18:56] <SteveZ> Alex: I propose moving this issue to grid and then use what we decide there back to flex-box
  317. # [18:57] * Quits: arno (arnog@192.150.10.201) (Quit: Leaving.)
  318. # [18:57] <SteveZ> Alex: I do not think that there are a lot of cases for overlapping items in flex-box; for grid on the other hand we do want overlapping items
  319. # [18:57] * Quits: isherman (Adium@216.239.45.4) (Ping timeout)
  320. # [18:58] <fantasai> fantasai: I think for grid, if yo expect to have overlapping, then you *really* want them to be pseudo-stacking ocntexts
  321. # [18:58] <fantasai> alex: So let's resolve for both grid and flexbox as pseudo-stacking contexts
  322. # [18:58] <dbaron> So it sounds like we're converging on Proposal B.
  323. # [18:58] <SteveZ> Anton: it is the safer way to go with the pseudo-stacking behavior
  324. # [18:59] <SteveZ> PLinss: we cannot envision all the use cases so we should not make decisions based on what we can see.
  325. # [18:59] <SteveZ> PLinss: I can see people wanting the behavior in both ways
  326. # [19:00] <SteveZ> PLinss: I think the behavior is controlable
  327. # [19:00] <SteveZ> Florian: we are just discussing the default behavior
  328. # [19:00] <SteveZ> Anton: It is controlable by a hack today
  329. # [19:00] <dbaron> Anton: It's already controllable with position:relative
  330. # [19:01] * smfr has to run, sorry
  331. # [19:01] * Quits: smfr (smfr@173.228.90.242) (Quit: smfr)
  332. # [19:01] <fantasai> issue 16, on whether z-index should just work on flex items
  333. # [19:01] <fantasai> auto would have no effect
  334. # [19:01] <fantasai> integer would mean form a stacking context
  335. # [19:02] <fantasai> note, that this only lets you switch into having a stacking context vs not, can't switch between pseudo-stack or not
  336. # [19:02] <SteveZ> Fantasai: That would give a switch for stacking context, but not pseudo-stacking context
  337. # [19:02] <fantasai> Florian: I'm leaning towards No, not pseudo-stacking context. Yes, z-index just works.
  338. # [19:03] <Zakim> -ChrisL
  339. # [19:03] <SteveZ> Florian: I would favor the not pseudo-stacking case behavior
  340. # [19:03] <SteveZ> DBaron: I cannot think of any case where a user wanted that behavior rather than accidentally depending on it
  341. # [19:04] <florian> fantasai's minuting makes matches what I said more closely than steveZ's
  342. # [19:04] <SteveZ> Alex: I cannot think of any such case either, but am not sure there would not be one
  343. # [19:04] <florian> s/makes//
  344. # [19:04] * sylvaing this discussion assumes the scope of use-cases to be known AND that users understand stacking. Next: quantum margin collapsing.
  345. # [19:05] * Joins: arno (arnog@192.150.10.201)
  346. # [19:05] <SteveZ> Alex: I would leave the current definition (agreeing with Florian) because we know what it does and do not have examples that show a need to change
  347. # [19:05] * Quits: miketaylr (miketaylr@173.134.110.207) (Quit: Leaving...)
  348. # [19:06] <SteveZ> RESOVLED: no pseudo-stacking context at this point; z-index creates a regular stacking context
  349. # [19:06] <Ms2ger> s/RESOVLED/RESOLVED/
  350. # [19:06] <SteveZ> Anton: User were taught that z-index only works with relative positioning and this changes that rule
  351. # [19:06] * Quits: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.169) (Quit: Fire on main board error, client combusted)
  352. # [19:07] <SteveZ> Anton: This is more of a cognative (mental model) problem than a practical problem
  353. # [19:08] <SteveZ> Florian: This is not a new problem, however.
  354. # [19:08] <SteveZ> Topic: min-size
  355. # [19:08] <SteveZ> Tab: size used for line wrapping is clamped by min and max
  356. # [19:08] * Joins: miketaylr (miketaylr@173.134.110.207)
  357. # [19:09] * hober has to drop off; bye
  358. # [19:09] <Zakim> -hober
  359. # [19:09] <SteveZ> Alex: If you have a bunch of buttons, if there is space, then they should go to the next line; if not enough space, then shrink
  360. # [19:09] <SteveZ> Tab: we should examine more intelligent controls in level 4
  361. # [19:10] <SteveZ> RESOLVED: No change for Issue 12
  362. # [19:11] <SteveZ> Florian: please add the topics I mentioned last week to next week's agenda
  363. # [19:12] <SteveZ> Tab: I object to change of the name, "order"
  364. # [19:12] <dbaron> Tab: one more issue to resolve to go to CR
  365. # [19:12] <dbaron> Florian: No, we also need a new name for 'order'
  366. # [19:12] <SteveZ> Florian: We resolved last week to change the name of "order"
  367. # [19:12] <SteveZ> Tab: I OBJECT to such a change
  368. # [19:12] <sylvaing> +1
  369. # [19:13] <Zakim> -rbetts
  370. # [19:13] <SteveZ> Meeting Adjourned at 10:03
  371. # [19:13] <Zakim> -dbaron
  372. # [19:13] <Zakim> -sylvaing
  373. # [19:13] <Zakim> -Bert
  374. # [19:13] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  375. # [19:13] <Zakim> -Rossen
  376. # [19:13] <Zakim> -antonp
  377. # [19:13] <Zakim> -koji
  378. # [19:13] * sylvaing is now known as sylvaing_away
  379. # [19:13] <Zakim> -plinss
  380. # [19:13] * Parts: nimbu (Adium@192.150.10.200)
  381. # [19:13] * Quits: rbetts (rbetts@24.85.39.110) (Quit: rbetts)
  382. # [19:13] <Zakim> -glenn
  383. # [19:14] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
  384. # [19:14] * Quits: koji (koji@222.158.227.129) (Quit: Leaving...)
  385. # [19:14] <Zakim> -tabatkins_
  386. # [19:14] <Zakim> -fantasai
  387. # [19:14] <Zakim> -florian
  388. # [19:16] * Parts: antonp (50ae8432@78.129.202.38)
  389. # [19:16] * Quits: alexmog_ (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  390. # [19:16] <Zakim> -??P66
  391. # [19:17] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  392. # [19:17] <Zakim> Attendees were sylvaing, plinss, hober, rbetts, glenn, Bert, dbaron, +66337aaaa, smfr, fantasai, antonp, johnjansen, SteveZ, [Microsoft], Rossen, arronei, ChrisL, florian,
  393. # [19:17] <Zakim> ... +1.281.305.aabb, tabatkins_, koji
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  405. # [19:58] <fantasai> TabAtkins: ping
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  416. # [20:38] <TabAtkins> fantasai: pong
  417. # [20:48] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
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  425. # [21:24] <fantasai> TabAtkins: um, check your phone?
  426. # [21:26] <TabAtkins> heh, didn't see that.
  427. # [21:27] <TabAtkins> fantasai: So are you still here to do something? Not sure it's necessary - I have a few other things I was going to work on today.
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  441. # [23:28] <fantasai> alexmog: yt?
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  445. # [23:33] <fantasai> alexmog: Was looking at step 6, determining hypothetical cross size
  446. # [23:33] <fantasai> alexmog: question is, in a column flex container, what rules are used?
  447. # [23:34] <fantasai> alexmog: e.g. do tables still shrink-wrap, or is everything fill-available...?
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  450. # Session Close: Thu Jul 12 00:00:00 2012

The end :)