/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2012-07-18 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Jul 18 00:00:00 2012
# Session Ident: #css
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# [18:04] * ChrisL changes topic to 'agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Jul/0417.html (ChrisL)'
# [18:05] <florian> Zakim, this will be Style
# [18:05] <ChrisL> trackbot, start telcon
# [18:05] * trackbot is preparing a teleconference
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# [18:05] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/07/18-css-irc
# [18:05] <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
# [18:05] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.169)
# [18:05] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot
# [18:05] <trackbot> Zakim, this will be Style_CSS FP
# [18:05] <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM already started
# [18:05] <trackbot> Meeting: Cascading Style Sheets (CSS) Working Group Teleconference
# [18:05] <trackbot> Date: 18 July 2012
# [18:05] <ChrisL> rrsagent, make logs public
# [18:05] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, ChrisL
# [18:06] <Zakim> -??P8
# [18:06] <arron> zakim, 253 is me
# [18:06] <Zakim> sorry, arron, I do not recognize a party named '253'
# [18:06] <Zakim> +??P12
# [18:06] <florian> Zakim, I am ??P12
# [18:06] <Zakim> +florian; got it
# [18:06] <Zakim> -rbetts
# [18:07] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
# [18:07] <Zakim> +??P15
# [18:07] <Zakim> +rbetts
# [18:07] <arron> Zakim: Who is on the phone?
# [18:07] <Zakim> +ChrisL
# [18:08] <glenn> zakim, who's noisy?
# [18:08] <Zakim> glenn, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
# [18:08] * ChrisL hears silence
# [18:08] * florian hears repeated clicks and cuckoo birds
# [18:08] <rbetts> same
# [18:08] * ChrisL redials
# [18:08] <glenn> i'm also hearing clicking
# [18:08] <Zakim> -ChrisL
# [18:08] <rbetts> better now
# [18:08] <glenn> it went away
# [18:08] <sylvaing> that was intense
# [18:09] <glenn> zakim, ??p15 is me
# [18:09] <Zakim> +glenn; got it
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# [18:09] <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
# [18:09] <Zakim> +ChrisL
# [18:09] * ChrisL better?
# [18:09] <dbaron> Zakim, [Mozilla] has dbaron, fantasai, jdaggett, jkew
# [18:09] <Zakim> +dbaron, fantasai, jdaggett, jkew; got it
# [18:10] <Zakim> +stearns
# [18:10] <Zakim> +antonp
# [18:10] <antonp> ScribeNick: antonp
# [18:10] <Zakim> +Bert
# [18:11] <antonp> Extra agenda item: css3-color errata
# [18:11] <antonp> will be item 1.5
# [18:11] <Zakim> - +1.253.307.aaaa
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# [18:12] <arron> Zakim: aabb is me
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# [18:13] <antonp> Zakim, who is here?
# [18:13] <Zakim> On the phone I see florian, [Microsoft], glenn (muted), rbetts, [Mozilla], ChrisL, stearns, antonp, Bert, +1.253.307.aabb
# [18:13] <Zakim> [Mozilla] has dbaron, fantasai, jdaggett, jkew
# [18:13] <Zakim> On IRC I see jdaggett, tabatkins_, antonp, Zakim, RRSAgent, rbetts, ChrisL, florian, arron, glenn, shepazu, krit1, jet_, jarek, dbaron, SimonSapin, tantek, Ms2ger, drublic, Liam,
# [18:13] <Zakim> ... macpherson, dglazkov, isherman, gsnedders, stearns, trackbot, TabAtkins, alexmog, vhardy, logbot, sylvaing, heycam, shans, CSSWG_LogBot, paul___irish, krijnhuman, hober,
# [18:13] <Zakim> ... fantasai, Bert, decadance, plinss, Hixie, arronei
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# [18:13] <Zakim> +tabatkins_
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# [18:14] <antonp> ACTION: Chris to follow up on invited expert issue: ask about employment status
# [18:14] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [18:14] * RRSAgent records action 1
# [18:14] <trackbot> Created ACTION-484 - Follow up on invited expert issue: ask about employment status [on Chris Lilley - due 2012-07-25].
# [18:14] <antonp> ITEM: css3-color errata
# [18:14] * dbaron Zakim is noisy?
# [18:14] <antonp> new comment: css3-color says don't use system colors, use something else
# [18:14] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
# [18:15] <antonp> It's a change to a non-normative note
# [18:15] <ChrisL> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Jul/0423.html
# [18:15] <Zakim> +bradk
# [18:15] <Zakim> +[Apple]
# [18:15] <hober> Zakim, Apple has me
# [18:15] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [Mozilla] (64%), ChrisL (19%), antonp (5%)
# [18:15] <Zakim> +hober; got it
# [18:16] <antonp> fantasai: it makes sense
# [18:16] <antonp> dbaron: are we still pushing the 'appearance' property forward? I thought we weren't
# [18:16] <antonp> ChrisL: the note says that it's been deprecated
# [18:17] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
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# [18:17] <antonp> ChrisL: the change deletes the entire note, and says that it's deprecated
# [18:17] <glenn> q+
# [18:17] * Zakim sees glenn on the speaker queue
# [18:17] <JohnJansen> zakim, microsoft has JohnJansen
# [18:17] <Zakim> +JohnJansen; got it
# [18:17] <antonp> ChrisL: it removes the admonition to use the 'appearance' property
# [18:17] <ChrisL> ack glnn
# [18:17] * Zakim sees glenn on the speaker queue
# [18:17] <ChrisL> ack glenn
# [18:17] * Zakim unmutes glenn
# [18:17] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:18] <glenn> zakim, unmute me
# [18:18] <Zakim> glenn was not muted, glenn
# [18:18] <antonp> glenn: avoiding having specs referring to future features would be a good idea
# [18:18] <glenn> ack glenn
# [18:18] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:19] <antonp> RESOLUTION: accept ChrisL's suggested change
# [18:19] <Zakim> +SteveZ
# [18:19] <fantasai> fantasai: There was also an errat on currentColor that's missing
# [18:19] <florian> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Mar/0327.html
# [18:19] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
# [18:19] <ChrisL> rrsagent, here
# [18:19] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2012/07/18-css-irc#T16-10-11
# [18:19] <Zakim> +??P57
# [18:19] <antonp> ITEM: DOM issue
# [18:19] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 13 seconds I heard sound from the following: florian (66%)
# [18:19] <antonp> florian: function called removeProperty
# [18:19] <antonp> ... not defined what it returns
# [18:19] * Joins: SteveZ (chatzilla@76.126.187.234)
# [18:20] <antonp> ... we propose it returns same thing as getPropertyValue
# [18:20] <antonp> dbaron: our implementation does something relevant
# [18:20] <antonp> ChrisL: sounds like change would be compatible with at least 2 implementations
# [18:20] <antonp> ChrisL: any objections?
# [18:21] <dbaron> s/does something relevant/does that, i.e., calls getPropertyValue(), removes the property, and returns what getPropertyValue() returned before removing the property/
# [18:21] <antonp> ??: should we check implementations first?
# [18:21] <glenn> can someone file a bug against cssom to record this?
# [18:21] <antonp> florian: I don't see what other behaviours could be useful
# [18:21] <antonp> s/??/sylvaing
# [18:21] * fantasai proposes the cssom editor files the bug :)
# [18:21] <glenn> ok, i will do so
# [18:21] <antonp> RESOLVED: accept the proposal from florian
# [18:22] <dbaron> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cbody%20style%3D%22color%3A%20blue%22%3E%0A%3Cscript%3E%0Avar%20s%20%3D%20document.body.style%3B%0Adocument.write(s.removeProperty(%27color%27))%3B%0A%3C%2Fscript%3E
# [18:22] <dbaron> is a testcase
# [18:22] <antonp> Bert: I think that's what the recommendation already says
# [18:22] <antonp> ... the current DOM spec
# [18:22] <antonp> florian: Oh?
# [18:22] <antonp> ... maybe I missed that.
# [18:22] <antonp> dbaron: lots of things in DOM spec didn't get into CSS
# [18:22] <glenn> DOM-2 currently says "Returns the value of the property if it has been explicitly set for this declaration block. Returns the empty string if the property has not been set or the property name does not correspond to a known CSS property."
# [18:23] <Bert> -> http://www.w3.org/TR/2000/REC-DOM-Level-2-Style-20001113/css.html DOM 2 style
# [18:23] <glenn> so it doesn't exactly say return what getPropertyValue() returns
# [18:23] <antonp> ChrisL: since DOM-2 Style doesn't have much life expectancy, so my opinion is to put it in CSS
# [18:23] <antonp> dbaron: I'm happy to have it in CSS
# [18:24] <dbaron> well, actually, it's a copy-paste with a bugfix
# [18:25] <antonp> RESOLVED: florian to file CSSOM bug and glenn to update CSSOM spec
# [18:25] * Joins: alexmog_ (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [18:25] <antonp> ITEM: css-device-adaptation
# [18:25] <antonp> florian: descriptor called 'resolution'
# [18:25] <antonp> ... introduced to be an equivalent to ??? dip
# [18:26] <antonp> ... introduced to be an equivalent to ??? dpi
# [18:26] <antonp> florian: we introduced resolution to be compatible with lots of things, but we think it's actually harmful because it tricks people into thinking it's good to use it
# [18:27] <florian> equivalent to target-densityDpi. Generally useless, only supported in the android version of webkit (not including chrome)
# [18:27] <fantasai> alexmog_: Did you get a chance to look at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Jul/0385.html ?
# [18:27] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.aa]
# [18:27] <alexmog_> zakim, microsoft.aa is me
# [18:27] <Zakim> +alexmog_; got it
# [18:27] <tabatkins_> FYI, WebKit also returns the getPropertyValue() value from removeProperty().
# [18:28] * ChrisL resolved: do whatever florian says
# [18:28] <antonp> RESOLVED: drop 'resolution' descriptor from css-device-adaptation
# [18:28] <Zakim> -??P57
# [18:28] <antonp> ACTION: florian to make that edit
# [18:28] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [18:28] * RRSAgent records action 2
# [18:28] <trackbot> Created ACTION-485 - Make that edit [on Florian Rivoal - due 2012-07-25].
# [18:28] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.aa]
# [18:28] <alexmog_> fantasai: yes, it seems reasonable
# [18:29] <antonp> ITEM: default font features
# [18:29] <jdaggett> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Jul/0155.html
# [18:29] <jdaggett> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Jul/0184.html
# [18:29] <jdaggett> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Jul/0377.html
# [18:29] <antonp> jdaggett: we've talked about the way font features are supported. Spec all along has wording that turns things like ligatures on by default
# [18:29] <antonp> ... When I was looking at implementations, I noticed that they were using two different modes
# [18:30] <antonp> ... default mode has no default font features
# [18:30] <antonp> ... enabling any value other than normal for a setting would flip the mode, and other settings would be change too
# [18:30] <jdaggett> http://people.mozilla.org/~jdaggett/tests/simplekerningligs.html
# [18:30] <jdaggett> http://people.mozilla.org/~jdaggett/images/fftrunk-ie10-chrome-defaults.png
# [18:30] <antonp> ... odd model; features pop on based on whether some random property is used or not
# [18:31] <antonp> ... test case shows rendering in different browsers
# [18:31] <antonp> ... there are distinct variations depending upon browser
# [18:31] * Joins: Rossen (Rossen@131.107.192.20)
# [18:31] <antonp> ... look at the 't' and 'o'; kerning is on in Fx but not in Wk or IE
# [18:31] <Rossen> Zakim, Microsoft has me
# [18:31] <Zakim> +Rossen; got it
# [18:31] <antonp> ... if you turn on a random feature, kerning gets enabled
# [18:32] <antonp> ... <jdaggett describes more examples>
# [18:32] <antonp> jdaggett: Microsoft said that this is a performance problem, and that we shouldn't turn on features by default
# [18:33] <jdaggett> Existing def'n of font-kerning:
# [18:33] <jdaggett> font-kerning : auto | normal | none
# [18:33] <jdaggett> Additions needed to support "user agent decides defaults" behavior:
# [18:33] <jdaggett> font-feature-settings : auto | normal | <feature-tag-value>#
# [18:33] <jdaggett> font-variant : auto | normal | ...
# [18:33] <jdaggett> font-variant-ligatures : auto | normal | [ <common-lig-values> || <discretionary-lig-values> ... ]
# [18:33] <antonp> jdaggett: would need to have an additional 'auto' value, meaning that UAs could do whatever they want
# [18:34] <antonp> ... Not a good authoring model; too magic
# [18:34] <antonp> ChrisL: re performance: I saw an assertion that it slowed down, and another assertion that the slow-down was due to something else. Which is correct?
# [18:35] * Quits: SimonSapin (simon@82.232.219.95) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [18:35] <antonp> jdaggett: Sergey (Microsoft) says there's a hit, but I think it's not major
# [18:35] <antonp> ??: failing to pay attention to default features makes browsers non-compliant
# [18:35] <antonp> jdaggett: Sergey doesn't want IE to be non-compliant
# [18:36] <dbaron> s/??/glenn/
# [18:36] <bradk> ("bla" on) is the new 'zoom:1' for mode switching.
# [18:36] <antonp> jdaggett: I dont' think there's any wording in the OpenType spec saying that you're non-compliant if you don't use the settings
# [18:36] <antonp> florian: I agree with jdaggett, better to have a good default
# [18:36] <SteveZ> +1 for current default
# [18:37] <antonp> ChrisL: I agree, if authors could switch it off via stylesheet then we get best of both worlds
# [18:37] <antonp> ChrisL: font designers have designed the font knowing that it works well with certain settings
# [18:37] <antonp> ... better to trust what the font designer thought.
# [18:38] <antonp> jdaggett: we make the problem more difficult if authors are given ability to make lots of feature switches
# [18:38] * dbaron Zakim, who is on the phone?
# [18:38] * Zakim sees on the phone: florian, [Microsoft], glenn, rbetts, [Mozilla], ChrisL, stearns, antonp, Bert, +1.253.307.aabb, tabatkins_, bradk, [Apple], [Microsoft.a], SteveZ, alexmog_,
# [18:38] * Zakim ... [Microsoft.aa]
# [18:38] * Zakim [Apple] has hober
# [18:38] * Zakim [Microsoft] has Rossen
# [18:38] * Zakim [Mozilla] has dbaron, fantasai, jdaggett, jkew
# [18:38] <glenn> http://www.microsoft.com/typography/otspec/features_ko.htm#liga
# [18:38] <antonp> ... within MS, is it just Sergey, or are there other people worried about performance
# [18:38] <antonp> sylvaing: performance is always an issue
# [18:38] <glenn> says "UI suggestion: This feature serves a critical function in some contexts, and should be active by default."
# [18:39] <ChrisL> would be interested to hear what Si Daniels from Microsoft Typography thinks about this
# [18:39] <antonp> ... recent raw memories about a past migration to a different tech that changed font layout
# [18:39] <glenn> so a number of registered OT features says they "should" be active by default
# [18:39] <antonp> sylvaing: using an 'auto' magic value is ok, but prefer to reach an agreement on concrete behaviour
# [18:40] <antonp> ... Fx proves that perf is ok, but we'd like more time to understand impact
# [18:40] <antonp> sylvaing: maybe we can recover from the perf hit, but we are cautious because it requires further work
# [18:40] <antonp> jdaggett: would you object to spec as it currently is/
# [18:41] <antonp> sylvaing: if this is about going to CR, we would probably want to object
# [18:41] <antonp> ... we want to convince Sergey first
# [18:41] <Zakim> - +1.253.307.aabb
# [18:41] <fantasai> jdaggett^: you can recover some perf by checking if the font uses features, and if not, go with the fast path
# [18:41] <antonp> ??: next step is to get an apples to applies comparison
# [18:42] <antonp> sylvaing: good to have test case to test against
# [18:42] <antonp> ChrisL: no objections at this stage, general agreement to go forward, but want a test case to test agains
# [18:42] <dbaron> s/ChrisL:/ChrisL: in summary,/
# [18:42] <JohnJansen> s/??/JohnJansen
# [18:42] <antonp> szilles: important that default is default, but that there's a way of getting rid of things. 'none' value?
# [18:43] <glenn> +1 for a 'none' value
# [18:43] <antonp> jdaggett: we need to finish spec before test cases
# [18:43] * Quits: jarek (jarek@83.27.241.89) (Quit: jarek)
# [18:43] <antonp> ChrisL: I disagree: the sooner we have tests the better, since the spec isn't finished without them
# [18:43] <antonp> jdaggett: tests aren't ready for submission
# [18:44] <alexmog_> fantasai -- reread your proposal on table captions, still agree
# [18:44] <antonp> ... I wouldn't start to put test cases into normal W3 form until LC
# [18:44] <fantasai> alexmog_: good, I'll close that issue pending edits, then :)
# [18:44] <antonp> ... I don't see there would be a big lag between LC and test cases
# [18:44] <antonp> ChrisL: My personal opinion: I find it easier to understand spec when there are tests, and easier to spot problems. Can be easier to get test out before LC
# [18:45] <stearns> +1 on more test cases sooner
# [18:45] <Ms2ger> What he said
# [18:45] <antonp> JohnJansen: We're ok in principal, but want test cases to test with
# [18:45] <fantasai> s/principal/principle/
# [18:46] <antonp> <conflicting opinions about need for test cases sooner rather than later?
# [18:46] <antonp> <conflicting opinions about need for test cases sooner rather than later>
# [18:46] <antonp> szilles: where do we put incoming test cases that haven't been verified?
# [18:47] <antonp> ChrisL: can you submit any tests you already have?
# [18:47] <stearns> test cases that aren't ready for official submission can go into an "incoming" folder
# [18:47] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.aaa]
# [18:47] <arronei> zakim, microsoft has me
# [18:47] <Zakim> +arronei; got it
# [18:47] <antonp> ChrisL: easier for people to contribute tests if we can see what's already been done
# [18:47] <antonp> jdaggett: half of the problem is designing the font, not the test
# [18:48] <antonp> jdaggett: we have some fonts, but we will need more
# [18:48] <antonp> ChrisL: I understood that Tal Lemming was designing some fonts; would be good to see them
# [18:48] <antonp> ACTION: jdaggett to supply fonts and tests
# [18:48] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [18:48] * RRSAgent records action 3
# [18:48] <trackbot> Created ACTION-486 - Supply fonts and tests [on John Daggett - due 2012-07-25].
# [18:49] <antonp> ChrisL: no resolution needed because it's not a change
# [18:49] <antonp> glenn: how about a resolution on the 'none' value?
# [18:49] <antonp> jdaggett: I'll think about it and write it up
# [18:50] <antonp> ITEM: flexbox issues
# [18:51] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-flexbox/issues-lc-2012
# [18:51] * Quits: arron (arronei@166.147.92.73) (Quit: Colloquy for iPhone)
# [18:51] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-flexbox/issues-lc-2012#issue-10
# [18:51] <glenn> apache FOP recently added a complex text path and chose to make it enabled by default, with a means for user to disable it, i.e., an equivalent to 'none'
# [18:51] <antonp> fantasai: Change request we want to reject:
# [18:51] <antonp> ... <see e-mail>
# [18:52] <glenn> http://xmlgraphics.apache.org/fop/1.1rc1/complexscripts.html#Disabling+complex+scripts
# [18:52] <antonp> fantasai: We think it doesn't make sense to follow the flex flow of the item itself
# [18:52] <antonp> florian: What I understood makes me agree with fantasai
# [18:53] * alexmog_ agrees with fantasai
# [18:53] <antonp> <szilles seeks clarification>
# [18:53] <antonp> ChrisL: any objections?
# [18:53] <antonp> RESOLUTION: reject change proposal
# [18:53] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-flexbox/issues-lc-2012#issue-14
# [18:53] <antonp> fantasai: Issue 14
# [18:54] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Jul/0121.html
# [18:54] <antonp> ... <fantasai describes issue>
# [18:54] * Quits: drublic (drublic@95.115.14.239) (Client exited)
# [18:54] <antonp> fantasai: in Hamburg we decided that it should redo line breaking
# [18:54] <antonp> szilles: did Kenny give additional reasons why he wanted a change?
# [18:55] <antonp> fantasai: if you have a flexbox toolbar, don't have enough room, things flow into multiple line, if you want to collapse a set of items, you want to save that space
# [18:55] <antonp> florian: why not use visibility:hidden
# [18:55] <antonp> fantasai: that just makes it invisible; doesn't save space
# [18:55] <antonp> fantasai: if you want things on different lines, usually that's a semantic things
# [18:55] * dbaron apologizes for picking a conference room that has a lot of air conditioner noise
# [18:55] <antonp> ... so you wouldn't use flexbox's multiline support
# [18:56] <antonp> <szilles reasks his question>
# [18:56] <antonp> fantasai: no
# [18:56] <antonp> szilles: then I agree with the rejection
# [18:56] <antonp> RESOLUTION: reject the change proposal
# [18:56] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-flexbox/issues-lc-2012#issue-4
# [18:56] <antonp> ITEM: open issue, #4
# [18:57] <antonp> fantasai: comment was that since order doesn't affect speech or tab order, why does it have a generic name?
# [18:57] <antonp> florian: Tab also objected to renaming
# [18:57] * sylvaing dbaron, didn't really notice that on my end
# [18:57] <antonp> Tab: we did all the renaming before LC, and we discussed this specific issue knowing the consequences
# [18:57] * Quits: jet_ (jet@66.207.208.98) (Quit: jet_)
# [18:58] <antonp> Tab: I don't feel that the comment adds anything new
# [18:58] * dbaron that means this phone has a good low pass filter (either intentionally or by accident)
# [18:58] <antonp> fantasai: display-order and box-order weren't specifically rejected; we just straw-polled on 'order'
# [18:58] <antonp> ... and we hadn't decided on tab order, for example
# [18:59] <antonp> sylvaing: I don't understand why we're causingin people pain by renaming
# [18:59] <antonp> ... renaming is important, but it has to happen early in spec roadmap
# [18:59] <antonp> florian: irrelevant for flexbox; what's done is done. What do we think about this spec/issue?
# [18:59] <antonp> sylvaing: I don't see a strong case for renaming
# [19:00] <antonp> Tab: there's not a strong case
# [19:00] <antonp> szilles: I think we should think about having a name freeze time that predates LC as a step in the process
# [19:00] <antonp> ... but I observe that this name change is relatively recent
# [19:00] * alexmog_ is not in love with some naming in flexbox and would welcome new names that are obviously awesome.
# [19:00] <antonp> ... any name change probably needs a couple of months to smooth itself out
# [19:01] <JohnJansen> +1 to szilles on having a freeze to names that predates LC
# [19:01] <antonp> ... let's try to fix it so we don't do this in future, so that we can have those months
# [19:01] <sylvaing> +1 to szilles as well
# [19:01] <dbaron> I agree with Steve that we have to be able to revisit a decision two months after we make it.
# [19:01] <antonp> ChrisL: a way forward is to not change the name but have a note explaining why the name is what it is, and why there might be issues about it
# [19:01] * alexmog_ "awesome" is required though, unless something much awesomer is proposed, leave the names alone!
# [19:01] <antonp> fantasai: that's not the issue; the spec is clear about what the property does
# [19:02] <antonp> ... I'm not going to object to anything, but this issue has been in the open for a while
# [19:02] <antonp> ChrisL: Will we make an exception for this one case?
# [19:02] <antonp> sylvaing: we don't have a new name!
# [19:03] <antonp> florian: if we change, we must change sooner not later
# [19:04] <antonp> fantasai: question would be: if we redid the straw poll, would people change their minds
# [19:04] <antonp> Tab: I wouldn't, but I would still be objecting
# [19:04] <antonp> fantasai: what's the rationale for rejecting the change proposal?
# [19:04] <antonp> Tab: small benefit, and too late in process
# [19:04] <antonp> fantasai: too late is the only good reason
# [19:05] <antonp> szilles: I agree with fantasai
# [19:05] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-flexbox/issues-lc-2012#issue-17
# [19:05] <Bert> q+ to say "too late in the process" is not a good reason. It's WD and we did ask for comments...
# [19:05] * Zakim sees Bert on the speaker queue
# [19:05] <antonp> RESOLUTION: reject the change proposal for reason of being too late in the process
# [19:05] <Bert> q-
# [19:05] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:05] <antonp> ITEM: next issue
# [19:06] <dbaron> s/next issue/flexbox issue 17/
# [19:06] <antonp> Bert: "too late in process" is not a good reason on an WD
# [19:06] * ChrisL sorry bert did not see you on the queue
# [19:06] <Zakim> -ChrisL
# [19:06] * dbaron is reminded of US supreme court decisions where there's a majority for the decision but no majority for the reason for the decision
# [19:07] * ChrisL is getting 'conference restricted'
# [19:07] * ChrisL can't rejoin
# [19:07] <antonp> fantasai: please could everyone try to think about the issue for the next call
# [19:08] * Quits: JohnJansen (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
# [19:08] <antonp> alexmog: why is it even an issue?
# [19:08] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
# [19:08] <antonp> Tab: I argue the other way; placeholders should "inherit" reasonable properties from their abspos
# [19:09] <antonp> fantasai: they dont' get padding or margin, why should they get 'order'?
# [19:09] <antonp> dbaron: does it concern painting order?
# [19:09] <antonp> Tab: that would be a separate question
# [19:09] <Zakim> -rbetts
# [19:09] * Quits: rbetts (rbetts@24.85.39.110) (Quit: rbetts)
# [19:09] <ChrisL> rrsagent, make minutes
# [19:09] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/18-css-minutes.html ChrisL
# [19:09] <antonp> alexmog: two adjacent abspos, is there one or two placeholders?
# [19:10] <antonp> ... does alignment apply?
# [19:10] <antonp> Tab: yes
# [19:10] <antonp> fantasai: I disagree
# [19:10] <dbaron> dbaron: I think that by default, nothing applies to the placeholder, and if you want something to, you should say so.
# [19:11] * Quits: jdaggett (jdaggett@66.207.208.98) (Quit: jdaggett)
# [19:11] * sylvaing we could have antonp summarize this really fast and resolve to that
# [19:11] <antonp> haha
# [19:11] * Joins: drublic (drublic@95.115.44.16)
# [19:11] <fantasai> szilles: I think we should deal with 18 first, then 17
# [19:11] <Zakim> -tabatkins_
# [19:12] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
# [19:12] <Zakim> -[Apple]
# [19:12] <Zakim> -[Mozilla]
# [19:12] <fantasai> antonp: I hate placeholders.
# [19:12] <Zakim> -Bert
# [19:12] <antonp> CONSENSUS: meeting closed
# [19:12] <fantasai> Meeting closed.
# [19:12] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.aa]
# [19:12] <Zakim> -SteveZ
# [19:12] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.aaa]
# [19:12] <Zakim> -stearns
# [19:12] * Quits: bradk (bradk@99.7.175.117) (Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/ )
# [19:12] <tabatkins_> Man, we'll never get to CR. ;_;
# [19:12] <Zakim> -alexmog_
# [19:12] <Zakim> -bradk
# [19:12] <Zakim> -antonp
# [19:12] <Zakim> -glenn
# [19:12] <fantasai> tabatkins_: yeah
# [19:12] <fantasai> tabatkins_: So, what was your rationale that wasn't "it's too late in the process"?
# [19:13] <Ms2ger> It's too late in the real world?
# [19:13] <fantasai> Ms2ger: note "process" is lower-case :)
# [19:13] <Bert> I think the argument is that the WG can't find any better name.
# [19:13] <Ms2ger> No
# [19:14] <Ms2ger> The argument is that flexbox properties have been renamed ten times too much already
# [19:14] <tabatkins_> I gave it in the call. The benefit is arguable (I think 'order' is a great name). If we assume there's a benefit, it's very small. The pain of changing names this late in the process outweighs the benefit.
# [19:14] <antonp> display-order might be more appropriate in one sense, but it looks like a longhand component property of display
# [19:14] <antonp> Which makes it a bad choice IMO
# [19:15] <fantasai> I think Florian suggested 'visual-order' as an alternative, maybe that's better?
# [19:15] <fantasai> Bert: That is a better rationale to give
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# [19:15] <alexmog_> if I was making a call right now to implement flexbox unprefixed, I would say wait for a while, naming can still change
# [19:16] <antonp> Yeah, visual-order is worth thinking about
# [19:16] <alexmog_> oh wait, we just have done that...
# [19:16] <alexmog_> "late in the process" is a valid argument, but lck of a better name is a stronger one
# [19:17] <tabatkins_> And with their powers combined...
# [19:17] <antonp> it's an invincible argument
# [19:17] <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, florian, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
# [19:17] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
# [19:17] <Zakim> Attendees were rbetts, +1.253.307.aaaa, florian, ChrisL, glenn, dbaron, fantasai, jdaggett, jkew, stearns, antonp, Bert, +1.253.307.aabb, tabatkins_, bradk, hober, JohnJansen,
# [19:17] <Zakim> ... SteveZ, [Microsoft], alexmog_, Rossen, arronei
# [19:17] * Parts: antonp (50a94e63@64.62.228.82)
# [19:17] <alexmog_> "late" really menas that a change has to be really really awesome to be accepted
# [19:18] <tabatkins_> Exactly. Please don't read "late" as "lol too late, pay more attention"
# [19:18] <alexmog_> on placeholders....
# [19:18] <alexmog_> earlier decisions on placeholers were based on the agreement that absolute positioned flex items doon
# [19:19] <alexmog_> ... don't have any meaningful use cases
# [19:19] <alexmog_> theh whateve is defined for absolute flex items needs to be definite and simple to implement
# [19:19] <tabatkins_> Yes.
# [19:20] <alexmog_> placeholders with no properties whatsoever IMO are best
# [19:20] <alexmog_> no order or alignment
# [19:20] <fantasai> that's what Mozilla implements, too
# [19:20] <fantasai> although bz says it would be easy to make it accept 'order'
# [19:20] <alexmog_> of course it is easy. alignment is easy too. just why we care???
# [19:20] <tabatkins_> I'm perfectly fine either way.
# [19:21] * Quits: florian (florianr@92.140.127.70) (Ping timeout)
# [19:21] <alexmog_> we can even define that placeholders are zero size and are all at (start, before)
# [19:21] <fantasai> and therfore don't affect layout :)
# [19:21] <alexmog_> yes
# [19:21] <fantasai> which solves #18
# [19:21] <tabatkins_> That's called "there's no such thing as placeholders, tables are an aberration".
# [19:21] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Jul/0419.html
# [19:22] * fantasai would be perfectly happy with that
# [19:22] <alexmog_> note that with the latest change to how text wrappers work, it may be reasonable
# [19:22] <fantasai> looks like Proposal A in Kenny's email
# [19:22] <tabatkins_> Yes, it is.
# [19:22] <fantasai> btw, any suggestions on where to put the text in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Jul/0385.html ?
# [19:22] <alexmog_> before, abspos element in the middle of text would behave just as if it was in the middle of that text anywhere
# [19:24] <tabatkins_> fantasai: At the end of 4.0.
# [19:24] <alexmog_> now, abspos elements split text blocks... could just as well get collected at a random place, like table captions...
# [19:25] <tabatkins_> I'm fine with anything reasonably consistent. I was trying to line up with the model suggested by table layout, but if we'd prefer to ignore that as a mistake and just say that complex layouts don't play with well abspos auto positioning, I'm fine with that as well.
# [19:25] <alexmog_> (but don't take this too seriously, I don't think I actually like that more than plain vanilla placeholders with no properties propagated to them)
# [19:28] <fantasai> is the static position of an abspos a point or a box?
# [19:28] <arronei> it should be a point.
# [19:28] <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/visudet.html#abs-non-replaced-width
# [19:29] <fantasai> There's different positions for left and right
# [19:29] <fantasai> so maybe it's a line segment
# [19:29] <fantasai> :)
# [19:30] * fantasai trying to figure out the implications of Proposal A, which makes the hypotehtical box the flex container
# [19:30] <arronei> Maybe its a line segment that is a point.
# [19:31] <fantasai> arronei: that would make the left and right static positions identical, which they are not in 10.3.7
# [19:32] <arronei> so where is the definition of line segment?
# [19:32] <fantasai> in your math texbook
# [19:32] <fantasai> *textbook
# [19:32] <fantasai> ?
# [19:32] <arronei> I was worried we may have our own definition of line segment in CSS somewhere
# [19:33] <fantasai> heh, no
# [19:33] <fantasai> we do define the sign of zero
# [19:33] <fantasai> as being not negative
# [19:33] <fantasai> (although we don't say whether it's positive or not)
# [19:33] <arronei> Yeah which I still have a strong opinion of that
# [19:34] <fantasai> ?
# [19:34] <arronei> -0 is negative, 0 is not negative and not positive, +0 is positive
# [19:34] <arronei> that's at least how atleat 10 people on my team have thought about it.
# [19:34] <fantasai> heh
# [19:34] <fantasai> well
# [19:35] <arronei> different issue though, lets get back to the "point", the abspos point.
# [19:35] <tabatkins_> Two zeros arent' enough for you?
# [19:36] <fantasai> right, so
# [19:36] <fantasai> if the "hypothetical box" in Chapter 10 is made to be the flex container
# [19:37] <fantasai> then the effect is the same as having it be a point placed in the start head corner
# [19:37] <fantasai> yes?
# [19:37] <arronei> yes that is what I would think
# [19:37] <fantasai> Ok, so that's proposal A
# [19:38] <fantasai> Proposal B is to define it as halfway between the margin edges off the two flex items its between
# [19:38] <fantasai> but that doesn't say what the behavior is at the edges
# [19:39] * fantasai is going off http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Jul/0419.html
# [19:39] <fantasai> Proposal C is to make each abspos placeholder a flex item
# [19:39] <tabatkins_> He elaborates (it's what I tried to do earlier, where it depends on the justify-content)
# [19:39] <fantasai> B and C have the issue of, do 'order' and/or 'align-self' have an effect on the placeholder
# [19:39] <tabatkins_> B has the further problem of actually being work, when this is probably a non-issue.
# [19:40] <fantasai> yeah
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# [19:41] <arronei> 'order' I don't think would either
# [19:41] * fantasai leans towards A, which makes all these issue snon-issues
# [19:42] <arronei> Yeah I think "A" makes more sense.
# [19:43] <tabatkins_> It just means that we're abandoning the precedent set by tables, and killing any possible usefulness of auto positioning.
# [19:43] <fantasai> Spec prose would just be then "The hypothetical box used to calculate the static position of an abspos box corresponds to the content-box of the flex container."
# [19:43] <fantasai> ?
# [19:44] <fantasai> tabatkins_: if we're going to make it useful, we should actually make it useful. Right now it's half-assed.
# [19:45] <tabatkins_> I'm not objecting. Just laying the consequences out fully. ^_^
# [19:45] <arronei> I think this is an issue we should really target in the next level if we think its important.
# [19:46] <fantasai> I can't think of a good use case.
# [19:46] <fantasai> The ones people brought up seem to make more sense by putting the abspos inside a flex item
# [19:46] <arronei> I can't either at the moment.
# [19:46] <fantasai> I think it's more likely that authors will be annoyed that abspos elements take up space than that they'll be annoyed it sort-of-kind-of follows its would-be flex position
# [19:47] <fantasai> s/it/it doesn/t
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# [19:49] <arronei> So I think we are settled on "A" for the moment.
# [19:49] <fantasai> You and I are, anyway :)
# [19:49] <fantasai> tabatkins_, alexmog_ ?
# [19:49] <tabatkins_> Don't particular care, but let me ping ojan and tony.
# [19:50] * fantasai thinks antonp would be happy with A, too
# [20:02] <alexmog_> ... sorry wasn't looking at IRC for a while...
# [20:02] * Quits: Rossen (Rossen@131.107.192.20) (Quit: Rossen)
# [20:03] <alexmog_> if "A" means the container is the auto position, I am personaly fine with that
# [20:04] <alexmog_> I think the placeholder is marginally more useful though, and more consistent with abspos elsewhere (e.g. grid)
# [20:05] <alexmog_> both us and mozilla already implement placeholders in some way, so it is not more work.
# [20:05] <alexmog_> but I would be ok either way
# [20:05] <alexmog_> ... need to step out of office now...
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# [20:08] <tabatkins_> Ojan and Tony are okay with the change.
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# [20:16] * fantasai needs to send comments on abspos for grid...
# [20:16] * fantasai needs to write them first, though :)
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# [20:35] * sylvaing_away is now known as sylvaing
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# [20:53] <fantasai> tabatkins_ , alexmog_ : So if we're agreed on Proposal A, how about I send mail to www-style, update the DoC, and edit that in
# [20:53] <fantasai> tabatkins_, alexmog_ : and then we can try to close it with the WG next week?
# [20:57] * Quits: Ms2ger (Ms2ger@91.181.95.137) (Quit: nn)
# [21:13] <tabatkins_> fantasai: Yes, sounds good.
# [21:15] <fantasai> tabatkins_: proposed edit: replace 4.1 with a paragraph:
# [21:16] <fantasai> The hypothetical box used to calculate the <i>static position</i>
# [21:16] <fantasai> of an absolutely-positioned flex item corresponds to
# [21:16] <fantasai> the content-box of the flex container.
# [21:16] <fantasai> As in block layout, the absolutely-positioned box has no effect
# [21:16] <fantasai> on the layout of surrounding content.
# [21:16] <fantasai> (with appropriate link to 2.1
# [21:17] <tabatkins_> That should have an explanation in English that this means the auto position is the start/head corner of the flex container.
# [21:17] <fantasai> lol
# [21:17] <fantasai> ok
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# [21:19] <fantasai> Add
# [21:19] <fantasai> (This effectively defines the <i>static position</i> as
# [21:19] <fantasai> the head start content-box corner of the flex container.)
# [21:19] <fantasai> ?
# [21:23] <fantasai> tabatkins_: ^
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# [22:34] <tabatkins_> fantasai: Sounds fine.
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The end :)