/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2012-07-25 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Jul 25 00:00:01 2012
# Session Ident: #css
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# [01:03] <tantek> hober, indeed
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# [01:03] <tantek> or at least the threads on specific modules, you know, ignoring the more obvious "support forum" style threads ;)
# [01:06] <tantek> btw - I think the inception one made more sense ;)
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# [01:13] <tantek> dress appropriately and we can re-enact it at La Boulange du Dome - you'll appreciate the setting.
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# [01:22] <hober> heh
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# [17:32] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/07/25-css-irc
# [17:32] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
# [17:32] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 37 minutes
# [17:32] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [17:32] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
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# [18:05] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
# [18:05] <Zakim> +??P16
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# [18:05] <glazou> Zakim, ??P16 is me
# [18:05] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
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# [18:07] <Zakim> +glenn; got it
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# [18:09] <Zakim> +stearns; got it
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# [18:09] <hober> Zakim, Apple has me
# [18:09] <Zakim> +hober; got it
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# [18:10] <glazou> Extra Agenda item : sunday at TPAC
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# [18:11] <Zakim> +Bert
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# [18:12] <glazou> regrets: dbaron, sylvaing, rbetts, kattie
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# [18:13] <smfr> can someone /topic?
# [18:13] * florian changes topic to 'agenda http://www.w3.org/mid/500F0A1F.8000608@disruptive-innovations.com'
# [18:13] * smfr changes topic to 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Jul/0580.html'
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# [18:14] <Zakim> +fantasai
# [18:14] <florian> ScribeNick: florian
# [18:14] <krit> I'll join on topic 2
# [18:14] <florian> Topic: f2f
# [18:14] <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/sandiego-2012#participants
# [18:15] <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/sandiego-2012#agenda
# [18:15] <florian> glazou: please register yourselfves and add agenda items on the wiki
# [18:15] <florian> glazou: also, what about sunday on tpac
# [18:15] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
# [18:15] <florian> stevez: w3c can't pay for sunday, budget is 2000 euros
# [18:15] <arronei> zakim, microsoft has me
# [18:15] <Zakim> +arronei; got it
# [18:16] <florian> steveZ: Adobe is willing to pay for 1/4
# [18:16] <florian> SteveZ: who else?
# [18:16] <florian> tab: I'll check, we may be able to contribute
# [18:17] <florian> SteveZ: maybe microsoft could join too?
# [18:17] <florian> ???: I'll talk to sylvain
# [18:17] <arronei> s/???/arronei
# [18:17] <florian> fantasai: I'll check
# [18:17] <florian> florian: I'll check too
# [18:18] <florian> Stevez: Apple?
# [18:18] <florian> glazou: how about cattering
# [18:18] <florian> Bert: budget included coffee and lunch
# [18:18] <hober> hober: I'll ask
# [18:19] <fantasai> organizations will donate to W3C, W3C will reserve the room
# [18:20] <florian> Topic: flexbox
# [18:20] <TabAtkins_> http://wiki.csswg.org/topics/flex-abspos-placeholders
# [18:21] <florian> tabAtkins: what happens when a flex items gets absolutely positioned
# [18:21] <florian> tabAtkins: current spec says we get a place holder, which interacts normally with the rest of flex elements
# [18:22] <florian> ... noticeable when using space between, etc
# [18:22] <florian> ... may we could do the same as tables
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# [18:22] <florian> ... there are several options, check the wiki
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# [18:23] <glazou> who just joined ?
# [18:23] <florian> ... the simple proposal is proposal A
# [18:23] <florian> fantasai: implementers don't like proposal B
# [18:23] <florian> fantasai: and intially didn't like C either
# [18:24] <florian> ... because it impacts layout of the content of the flexbo
# [18:24] <florian> x
# [18:24] <fantasai> s/and initially/initial commenter/
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# [18:24] <florian> fantasai: and that's normally not what placeholders do
# [18:25] <fantasai> florian: There was someone mentioning [something about transforms].
# [18:25] <florian> tabAtkins: I'm for A
# [18:26] <florian> ... this is simplest
# [18:26] <florian> ... we have alternative proposals, but they're more complex, and there's no clear use case
# [18:26] <florian> fantasai: A or E (variant of C)
# [18:27] <florian> tab: E is too complex
# [18:27] <florian> florian: didn't morten propose a variant of B
# [18:27] <florian> fantasai: that 's D
# [18:27] <florian> tabAtkins: also a bit complex, not obvious use cases
# [18:28] <florian> SteveZ: what's important is that abspos items don't cause spacing differences
# [18:28] <florian> tab: that's everything but C
# [18:29] <fantasai> fantasai: Morten responds that E is better than A or B
# [18:29] <fantasai> fantasai: He doesn't like A because "it sounds like a bug report"
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# [18:29] <fantasai> fantasai: i.e. the author would expect the static position to be somewhat accurate
# [18:30] <fantasai> fantasai: it might be more useful for vertical flexboxes rather than horizontal ones
# [18:30] <glazou> Regrets: ChrisL
# [18:31] <fantasai> fantasai: you can abspos something to the side, and have the main content flow down, e.g.
# [18:31] <fantasai> fantasai: Morten listed C > D/E > B > A
# [18:31] <florian> florian/fantasai: morten wants D or E
# [18:31] <fantasai> szilles: This isn't an implementer issue
# [18:32] <fantasai> szilles: The way I understand it is that the main-axis position may be useful to someone
# [18:32] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: That would be option C, because others are arbitrary
# [18:33] * florian thanks Elika for taking over scribing. I need a better keyboard (and maybe a better brain) before I accept to scribe again
# [18:33] <fantasai> discussion of other cases that are complicated, e.g. bidi
# [18:34] <fantasai> szilles: Your (Tab) position is that coming up with something that handles the static position is complicated and hard to implement so why bother.
# [18:34] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: yes
# [18:34] <fantasai> anton: I think there's an author expectation that static position works, simply because it always has until now
# [18:34] <fantasai> anton: We have to choose between two aims here.
# [18:35] <fantasai> anton: Don't like placeholders
# [18:35] * Joins: Rossen (Rossen@131.107.192.20)
# [18:35] <fantasai> anton: but also want static position to work
# [18:35] <fantasai> anton: they are both expectations that people have
# [18:35] <fantasai> Rossen: I agree with Anton, and to me static position makes a lot of sense when you're talking about document layout and attaching things to the flow
# [18:35] <fantasai> Rossen: For app layout, static position is meaningless
# [18:35] <fantasai> Rossen: not used anywhere
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# [18:35] <fantasai> Rossen: If you want something to stick to any particular position
# [18:36] <fantasai> Rossen: Would most likely include it as part of the item itself, so would tag along with item
# [18:36] <fantasai> Rossen: So don't see what we would bring to the users, to implement static position
# [18:36] <fantasai> Rossen: For implementation, easier to do origin of the flexbox
# [18:37] <fantasai> Rossen: Haven't seen any compelling use cases for it
# [18:38] <fantasai> fantasai explains a lot about Mozilla's implementation of frame lists
# [18:40] <fantasai> fantasai: So A and E would be equally difficult.
# [18:40] <Zakim> + +1.206.675.aabb
# [18:41] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: A is easiest from a spec perspective, even if it's not easiest by implementation
# [18:41] <Zakim> -tabatkins_
# [18:41] <fantasai> florian: spec authors are last on the priority list
# [18:41] * TabAtkins_ is not actually gone.
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# [18:41] * TabAtkins_ finally dialed into adobe properly.
# [18:41] <fantasai> anton: Nobody's said anything about any of them being impossible to implement
# [18:42] <SteveZ> fantasai: points out that it is necessary to keep the position of abspos items in the document because that affects paint order
# [18:42] <fantasai> Rossen: Even from our POV, implementing one vs other (A vs other) would have some better perf characteristics during content updates, but that's about it
# [18:42] <fantasai> Rossen: computing either position is not a problem
# [18:42] <fantasai> Rossen: Not very difficult to implement
# [18:42] <fantasai> glazou: I'm with Anton, author expectation is quite important
# [18:43] <fantasai> glazou: We are doing things in CSS these days that were quoted as "impossible" by browsers earlier
# [18:43] <krit> Zakim, aabb is TabAtkins_
# [18:43] <Zakim> +TabAtkins_; got it
# [18:43] <fantasai> glazou: complexity of implementation is an argument, but not the ultimate one
# [18:43] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
# [18:43] <Zakim> -??P43
# [18:43] <Bert> (With regions, grid templates, and flexboxes, the list of elements to justify may have little relation to the source tree. It's a list in some overlaid structure, a "shadow tree" (not necessarily even a tree).)
# [18:43] <fantasai> glazou: Readability of spec and expectation of authors seems more important.
# [18:43] <Rossen> Zakim, [Microsoft.a] is me
# [18:43] <Zakim> +Rossen; got it
# [18:43] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: Unless we apply a bunch of properties to placeholders, in non-complex cases the static position will be completely arbitrary
# [18:44] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: Placeholder just goes to order of zero, then that will have no relation to order author intends there
# [18:44] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: people seem to be very reluctant to apply properties to placeholders
# [18:44] <fantasai> Florian: Have we talked enough that we can straw poll?
# [18:44] <fantasai> szilles: Would like to make one comment.
# [18:45] <fantasai> szilles: If you pick D then the positioning of abspos under ordering is completely arbitrary.
# [18:45] <fantasai> s/is/is not/
# [18:45] <fantasai> szilles: gets glued to next flex item
# [18:45] <fantasai> Anton: It's slightly arbitrary, but static position is always slightly arbitrary
# [18:46] <fantasai> szilles: It's at least predictable
# [18:46] <fantasai> glazou: Let's try doing a straw poll
# [18:46] <fantasai> glazou: We have 5 options A-E
# [18:46] <glazou> Zakim, who is here?
# [18:46] <Zakim> On the phone I see glazou, glenn, plinss, florian, stearns, SteveZ, [Apple], antonp, ??P15, Bert, smfr, CesarAcebal, fantasai, [Microsoft], TabAtkins_, Rossen
# [18:46] <Zakim> [Apple] has hober
# [18:46] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has arronei
# [18:46] <Zakim> On IRC I see Rossen, logbot, SteveZ, smfr, antonp, TabAtkins_, CesarAcebal, florian, Bert, krit, glenn, arno, jet, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, shepazu, ChrisL, Ms2ger, florianr,
# [18:46] <Zakim> ... arronei, jwir3, dglazkov, gsnedders, stearns, trackbot, alexmog, vhardy, sylvaing_away, heycam, shans, CSSWG_LogBot, paul___irish, krijnhuman, hober, fantasai, plinss, Hixie
# [18:47] <fantasai> Straw Poll
# [18:47] <fantasai> fantasai: I think B, D, and E are different ways of expressing the same thing
# [18:47] <fantasai> glenn: abstain
# [18:47] <fantasai> plinss: abstain
# [18:47] <fantasai> Florian: C or E
# [18:47] <fantasai> szilles: B, then A
# [18:47] <fantasai> s/B/D
# [18:47] <fantasai> hober: abstain
# [18:48] <fantasai> anton: D, then A
# [18:48] <Bert> Bert: A or D
# [18:48] <fantasai> smfr: abstain
# [18:48] <fantasai> césar: abstain
# [18:48] <fantasai> fantasai: not C
# [18:48] <fantasai> arron: abstain
# [18:48] <fantasai> tab: A or C
# [18:48] <fantasai> rossen: abstain
# [18:48] <fantasai> * missed a few abstentions there
# [18:49] <fantasai> glazou: poll is not very conclusive
# [18:49] <fantasai> szilles: All answers, except one or two Cs, were advocating no traceable effect of using abspos
# [18:49] <glazou> my poll was not minuted : wanted A then D but going to abstain
# [18:50] <fantasai> ROssen: I strongly support that
# [18:50] <fantasai> RESOLVED: placeholders have no impact on surrounding flex layout
# [18:52] <fantasai> fantasai: I think B, D, and E are roughly the same, they're trying to accomplish the same thing but expressed differently
# [18:53] <fantasai> fantasai: only might be different in edge cases, which we could discuss
# [18:53] <fantasai> fantasai: edge cases are
# [18:53] <fantasai> fantasai: a) between flex items, glued to next or previous
# [18:54] <fantasai> fantasai: b) if it's at a wrap point, does it wrap with the next, or wrap with the previous
# [18:54] <fantasai> Anton: I would vote next in both cases
# [18:54] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: given both are completly scrambled up by order, it's completely arbitrary
# [18:54] <fantasai> fantasai: this is after reordering
# [18:55] <fantasai> fantasai: c) if no flex items, where does it go
# [18:55] * TabAtkins_ notes that deciding on issue A lets us ignore all of these questions.
# [18:55] <fantasai> Rossen: Should go exactly where the first flex item would have gone
# [18:56] <fantasai> Rossen: If trying to keep as close as possible to flow layout
# [18:56] * TabAtkins_ is about 30 minutes past caring about this anyway.
# [18:56] <fantasai> Rossen: In flow layout, is it with the next or previous item? Does it stick to wrapping or not?
# [18:56] <fantasai> Rossen: Use those rules
# [18:56] <SteveZ> +1 for Rossen's reasoning
# [18:57] <fantasai> Rivoal: I'm ok with that reasoning, and if everybody agrees, we can resolve and that and have the editors go off and spec that, whichever it is
# [18:57] <fantasai> Rossen: Shouldn't something like this go in the positioning spec?
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# [18:57] <fantasai> Anton: In normal layout, says "position as if it were not floated and position was static"
# [18:57] <fantasai> Rossen: Would hope that all static positions be put into css3-positioning
# [18:58] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: Would prefer not t have this be undefined right now
# [18:58] <fantasai> fantasai: I think we want to define it here
# [18:59] <fantasai> Straw Poll A vs. Rossen's Principles
# [18:59] <fantasai> Rossen's Principles are, do the same thing you'd do in normal flow layout
# [19:00] <fantasai> Rossen: Either going with precise position, or origin
# [19:00] <fantasai> Rossen: For grid, we take the origin of the current cell
# [19:00] <fantasai> Rossen: In grid, you can have static auto position
# [19:00] <fantasai> Rossen: but you can define grid column and grid row, which will put you in a particular grid cell
# [19:00] <fantasai> Rossen: you get something better than origin of the grid
# [19:00] <fantasai> Rossen: But it's still origin of the cell
# [19:01] <fantasai> Rossen: Now if you have 5 items in that cell, we won't do anything better than 0 0
# [19:01] <fantasai> fantasai: items in the same cell stack on top of each other anyways
# [19:01] * glazou wonders if he should thank you all for such a conference call right after my summer break :-D
# [19:01] <fantasai> Florian: This gives me another argument against A. More likely to wind up with things on top of each other if you're not careful
# [19:02] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: That's the definition of abspos
# [19:02] <fantasai> glazou: A
# [19:02] <fantasai> plinss: abstain
# [19:02] * TabAtkins_ is going to just change the Flexbox editor's line to "everyone but Tab Atkins" so I can work on something more productive. ^_^
# [19:02] <fantasai> glenn: abstain
# [19:02] <fantasai> Florian: Rossen
# [19:02] <fantasai> Alan: Rossen
# [19:02] <fantasai> szilles: Rossen
# [19:02] <fantasai> hober: abstain
# [19:02] <fantasai> Anton: Rossen
# [19:02] <fantasai> Bert: abstain
# [19:03] <fantasai> smfr: abstain
# [19:03] <fantasai> César: abstain
# [19:03] <fantasai> fantasai: abstain
# [19:03] <fantasai> Arron: Rossen
# [19:03] <fantasai> Tab: A
# [19:03] <fantasai> Rossen: Rossen
# [19:03] <fantasai> Consensus on Rossen
# [19:03] <fantasai> Florian: Can we let the editors now figure this out?
# [19:03] * smfr gets ready to stab self in eye with fork
# [19:04] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Abspos static position defined according to Rossen's principles above
# [19:04] * krit won't be on he call any longer. Maybe transform discussion can continue on mailing list.
# [19:04] <glazou> yes
# [19:04] <glazou> sorry krit
# [19:04] <krit> glazou: :)
# [19:05] <fantasai> fantasai: Question is, does 'order' affect the absolutely-positioned child, either wrt painting order or wrt static position
# [19:05] <fantasai> Florian: If we went with A, I'd say no, but given we're not going with A, I think 'order' is usefl.
# [19:05] * Quits: arno (arnog@192.150.10.201) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [19:05] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: The issue is, we literally do nothing for placeholders in any thing else
# [19:06] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: e.g. we don't honor 'float' or 'clear' when computing static positions
# [19:06] <fantasai> No strong opinions
# [19:06] <fantasai> szilles: I would go for not honoring it
# [19:06] <fantasai> szilles: Best way to keep things consistent
# [19:06] <TabAtkins_> Note that *not* ordering it makes "Rossen's principles" much less coherent.
# [19:06] <fantasai> Florian: I can go with that
# [19:07] <ChrisL> I have some changes in fonts too, but did not put the right class on the changed bit
# [19:07] <ChrisL> sorry w/c
# [19:07] <fantasai> RESOLVED: 'order' does not apply to abspos children of a flexbox, placeholders have all initia/inherited values for poperties
# [19:08] <fantasai> fantasai: At TPAC resolved to change 'order' to <integer>, but Tab forgot to edit this in.
# [19:08] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: Question is do we reverse the resolution or edit it in
# [19:09] <fantasai> szilles: When do two numbers equal each other?
# [19:10] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Fix issue 22
# [19:10] * Quits: glenn (gadams@71.218.123.189) (Client exited)
# [19:11] <fantasai> That's all the issues
# [19:11] <Zakim> -glenn
# [19:11] <Zakim> -[Apple]
# [19:11] <Zakim> -smfr
# [19:11] <fantasai> Editors to edit all the issues, post text for review, and decide on CR next week
# [19:12] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
# [19:12] <Zakim> -stearns
# [19:12] <Zakim> -Rossen
# [19:12] <Zakim> -glazou
# [19:12] <Zakim> -Bert
# [19:12] <Zakim> -SteveZ
# [19:12] <Zakim> -CesarAcebal
# [19:12] <Zakim> -plinss
# [19:12] <Zakim> -antonp
# [19:12] <Zakim> -fantasai
# [19:12] <Zakim> -TabAtkins_
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# [19:14] <Zakim> -??P15
# [19:14] * Parts: antonp (50ae842d@109.169.29.95)
# [19:15] <Zakim> -florian
# [19:15] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
# [19:15] <Zakim> Attendees were glazou, glenn, plinss, florian, +1.206.675.aaaa, stearns, tabatkins_, SteveZ, hober, antonp, Bert, smfr, CesarAcebal, fantasai, arronei, +1.206.675.aabb,
# [19:15] <Zakim> ... [Microsoft], Rossen
# [19:16] * Parts: krit (krit@192.150.10.201)
# [19:22] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: So, running tests now...
# [19:22] <TabAtkins_> Tests?
# [19:23] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: On behavior of abspos
# [19:23] <TabAtkins_> Oh.
# [19:23] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: Chrome has a weird line-breaking bug, but Opera and Mozilla place the abspos at the edge of the preceding item
# [19:23] <fantasai> when it occurs at a line break
# [19:23] <fantasai> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cstyle%3E%0A%20%20div%20{%20width%3A%203em%3B%20border%3A%20solid%3B%20}%0A%20%20span%20{%20border%3A%20solid%20blue%3B%20position%3A%20absolute%3B%20}%0A%3C%2Fstyle%3E%0A%3Cdiv%3E%0A%E4%B8%80%E4%BA%8C%E4%B8%89%3Cspan%3E%3C%2Fspan%3E%E5%9B%9B%0A%3C%2Fdiv%3E
# [19:25] <fantasai> All three browsers place the box with the next character rather than the previous in the presence of letter-spacing
# [19:26] <fantasai> I can't trigger justification on any of them, though
# [19:26] <fantasai> so I can't test justification directly
# [19:26] * fantasai supposes it doesn't matter much, though, since they probably all fail the letter-spacing boundary tests
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# [19:29] <fantasai> So, thinking about how to spec this...
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# [19:31] <fantasai> I think we could just say that each abspos child of a flex container is wrapped in an anonymous flex item (or consecutive sequences of them are wrapped in an anonymous flex item) just like the spec used to say
# [19:31] <fantasai> and then define how they don't impact justification
# [19:35] <TabAtkins_> I think I'd prefer to have them be placeholder items, at order 0. We run step 0 of the layout algo, then attach each to the preceding non-placeholder item, then ignore them completely for the rest of the algo.
# [19:36] <fantasai> Then we have to deal with alignment
# [19:36] <fantasai> I'd rather have the anonwrapper be effectively the placeholder, and have everything else fall out from that
# [19:36] <fantasai> it's also closer to the old spec
# [19:36] <TabAtkins_> Hm? We don't have to worrya bout alignment at all.
# [19:37] <TabAtkins_> Because we ignore them during the alignment phase, since that's "the rest of the algo".
# [19:37] <TabAtkins_> We just attach them to the main-end cross-start side of the preceding item.
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# [19:39] <TabAtkins_> Ugh, this is just going to be such a dumb idea. People are imagining some sophisticated and desirable handling that won't exist.
# [19:41] <fantasai> if the preceding item is smaller than the cross-size of the line?
# [19:42] <fantasai> you don't want to attach it to the margin-box corner
# [19:42] <fantasai> you want it's main-axis position, but the cross-start edge of the line box
# [19:42] <fantasai> maybe
# [19:42] <fantasai> Then there's align-items
# [19:42] <fantasai> and how that impacts the placeholders
# [19:43] <TabAtkins_> Nothing should affect any of it.
# [19:43] <fantasai> text-align affects placeholders
# [19:44] <TabAtkins_> I don't want to try and translate every quirk of abspos text handling into flexbox.
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# [19:47] <fantasai> reminds me, this all needs to be defined for block alignment as well...
# [19:47] <fantasai> >_<
# [19:48] <Ms2ger> Yay, defining stuff
# [19:48] <fantasai> no, no yay. static position sucks
# [19:48] <fantasai> :(
# [19:49] <TabAtkins_> And yet you voted to make it more complicated!
# [19:49] <fantasai> I voted not C
# [19:49] <TabAtkins_> And then abstained. ;_;
# [19:49] * Quits: florian (florianr@91.203.96.240) (Ping timeout)
# [19:49] <fantasai> yep, because authors > spec editors
# [19:50] <TabAtkins_> Well, duh. I voted A because the other options aren't actually better for authors either.
# [19:50] <fantasai> I think that's the case for row flexboxes
# [19:50] <fantasai> I think it doesn't actually matter much for wrapping flexboxes
# [19:50] <fantasai> but for column flexboxes I'm not so sure
# [19:50] <TabAtkins_> This option, since it doesn't transfer order to the placeholder and doesn't do a lot of other more sophisticated things, won't match author expectations in many cases.
# [19:51] <TabAtkins_> I actually think it's impossible to match author expectations well. I'm with Rossen's earlier argument that, for app layout, static position is meaningless and arbitrary.
# [19:52] <TabAtkins_> I'm confused as to why he seemingly switched sides. :/
# [19:52] <fantasai> I think we'll see flexbox used for non-app layouts
# [19:52] <fantasai> catalogs, for instance, aren't apps ^_^
# [19:52] <TabAtkins_> I doubt you can come up with a reasonable use-case for static position in a flexbox used for catalogs.
# [19:53] <fantasai> yeah, probably
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# [19:55] <TabAtkins_> Like I said, I think that people voted Rossen with an expectation in their head of paragraph-style layout, where static position does have some useful properties.
# [19:55] <TabAtkins_> I think static position is most useful for a few kinds of positioning hacks that should be solved by more powerful abspos.
# [19:57] <TabAtkins_> Basically, I think the committee decision resulted in a shitty half-decision that won't actually do anything very useful. Some people will find ways to use it, and this will be used as justification for further spreading complicated static position to future specs.
# [19:58] <fantasai> I think it's good we resolved on not C :)
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# [19:59] <TabAtkins_> Yeah, I'm fine with that, I don't care. It was *a* simple, consistent treatment, but not the best.
# [20:01] <TabAtkins_> A is simple. The others are less simple, and are consistent in particular ways, but inconsistent in others.
# [20:07] <fantasai> The <a href="http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/visudet.html#abs-non-replaced-width">hypothetical box</a> used to calculate the <i>static position</i> [[!CSS21]]
# [20:07] <fantasai> of an absolutely-positioned <i>flex item</i> corresponds to
# [20:07] <fantasai> that of an anonymous empty flex item
# [20:07] <fantasai> whose main-axis position coincides with the main-start edge of the subsequent real flex item
# [20:07] <fantasai> and, being hypothetical, has no effect on flex layout.
# [20:07] * fantasai studies Morten's email
# [20:07] <fantasai> If there is no subsequent real flex item,
# [20:07] <fantasai> the hypothetical box's main-axis position is the main-end edge of the previous flex item,
# [20:07] <fantasai> else the main-start edge of the flex container.
# [20:08] <TabAtkins_> I see no need to explicitly talk about the hypothetical box.
# [20:09] <fantasai> Those are the terms CSS2.1 uses to define static position
# [20:09] <fantasai> and it makes it easy to write the spec prose here.
# [20:09] <fantasai> Unless you have a better proposal?
# [20:09] <TabAtkins_> Just define the static position directly.
# [20:09] <fantasai> No, not going to. Don't want to deal with bidi
# [20:10] <fantasai> It gets complicated, basically, when you involve bidi.
# [20:10] <TabAtkins_> Wait, what? There's no bidi involved. There's no text here, just flex items.
# [20:10] <fantasai> 'direction' affects which corner of the hypothetical box you pick
# [20:10] <fantasai> So will, eventually, 'writing-mode'.
# [20:10] <fantasai> By defining the hypothetical box, and letting that define the static position, we don't have to deal with that here.
# [20:11] <TabAtkins_> On the other hand, we have to deal with alignment and sizing. You can't just say "has no effect on layout" when you're relying on an actual box to be created with a size and whatnot.
# [20:11] <fantasai> The size is zero, because it's anonymous and empty
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# [20:40] <TabAtkins_> No, by default the size of an anonymous item is 'stretch'.
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# [22:30] * fantasai hates static positions
# [22:31] * fantasai tries to figure out what would be the simplest thing to implement from a Gecko POV, since these edge cases are insane
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# Session Close: Thu Jul 26 00:00:00 2012

The end :)