/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2012-08-01 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Aug 01 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #css
  3. # [00:01] * Joins: glenn (gadams@174.29.115.20)
  4. # [00:08] <dbaron> TabAtkins, I renamed a few things, but otherwise looks good
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  8. # [01:03] <fantasai> alexmog: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Jul/0722.html
  9. # [01:03] <fantasai> dbaron: Cool. Think you're ready for an updated WD? :)
  10. # [01:04] <dbaron> fantasai, probably not quite
  11. # [01:04] <TabAtkins> dbaron: The common interface you talk about is shared by everything that I call "rule-filled" in Syntax.
  12. # [01:05] <TabAtkins> If that helps with naming at all...
  13. # [01:05] <dbaron> TabAtkins, I don't think it does.
  14. # [01:06] <dbaron> TabAtkins, Though I'm wondering about alternatives like cheese-filled or meat-filled.
  15. # [01:06] <TabAtkins> Excellent.
  16. # [01:06] <TabAtkins> CSSRuleFilledRule
  17. # [01:06] <TabAtkins> SO EASY TO UNDERSTAND
  18. # [01:07] <TabAtkins> I dislike supportsCSS, because it's not about CSS in general, just a single property.
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  20. # [01:08] * fantasai wonders if it's possible to co-opt "rule set"
  21. # [01:13] <stearns> dbaron: will you be able to respond to the exclusions issue posts soon?
  22. # [01:13] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  23. # [01:16] <fantasai> CSSRuleSetRule
  24. # [01:20] <TabAtkins> stearns: Florian's response seems to be good.
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  26. # [01:21] <stearns> TabAtkins: I like the collision property idea. I don't think it should be required for exclusions
  27. # [01:22] <stearns> an example of what gets fouled up by exclusions would be much more helpful than vague handwaving about broken layouts
  28. # [01:22] <TabAtkins> I was just referring to his phrasing of the issue, actually, that it's easy to produce abspos-exclusions that will fail badly in different size contexts.
  29. # [01:23] <TabAtkins> His assertion that authoring tools will probably use abspos seems apt.
  30. # [01:23] <stearns> I would say that it's easy to produce abspos elements that fail badly. Adding exclusions to the mix does not increase that failure
  31. # [01:24] <TabAtkins> This is true. The problem is that it seems that abspos exclusions will probably be the *easiest* type to author, particularly when tool-assisted.
  32. # [01:24] <TabAtkins> And that this will increase abspos usage in general, since it's suddenly much more useful.
  33. # [01:26] <stearns> exclusions are perfectly fine with flex, perfectly fine with grid, and can be used responsibly with other layouts
  34. # [01:31] <TabAtkins> Yes, that's been stated. I don't think that counters my assertions, though.
  35. # [01:31] <TabAtkins> Namely, that they work badly with abspos (as badly as abspos normally work) and that they'll be popular and commonly-used with abspos.
  36. # [01:33] <stearns> is there a technical argument in that statement that is possible to address in the exclusions specification?
  37. # [01:35] <stearns> (and while the fact that exclusions work fine in some cases has been stated, dbaron has not acknowledged this)
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  40. # [01:38] <TabAtkins> The technical argument is "abspos sucks, because they can easily collide all the time, so you should either forbid abspos from being exclusions, or define a collision model like floats do". I think that's dbaron's desire, exactly.
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  42. # [01:41] <stearns> that would be a welcome, actionable issue that we could work over. I'd love to change the issue wording to something like that
  43. # [01:42] <stearns> but I'd note that overlapping abspos exclusion handling was one of the first things people on www-style asked to add to the spec :)
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  48. # [02:27] <stearns> the @media rule will be used to reposition abspos elements, particularly in tool-assisted scenarios. It encourages abspos use :)
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  96. # [17:38] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/08/01-css-irc
  97. # [17:38] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
  98. # [17:38] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 31 minutes
  99. # [17:38] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
  100. # [17:38] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
  101. # [17:39] <glazou> leaverou: congrats :-)
  102. # [17:39] <glazou> welcome onboard
  103. # [17:51] <glazou> Regrets: plinss
  104. # [17:57] * Joins: cabanier (cabanier@192.150.22.55)
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  107. # [18:05] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@70.36.140.99)
  108. # [18:05] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  109. # [18:05] <Zakim> +fantasai
  110. # [18:06] <Zakim> +??P8
  111. # [18:06] <glazou> Zakim, ??P8 is me
  112. # [18:06] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
  113. # [18:08] * Joins: antonp (50a94e63@64.62.228.82)
  114. # [18:08] * Joins: dstorey (Adium@67.180.84.179)
  115. # [18:08] * Joins: lstorset (lastorset@91.203.96.240)
  116. # [18:08] <Zakim> + +1.206.675.aaaa
  117. # [18:09] <Zakim> +Bert
  118. # [18:09] <glazou> Zakim, aaaa is cabanier
  119. # [18:09] <Zakim> +cabanier; got it
  120. # [18:09] <cabanier> Zakim, 206.675.aaa is me
  121. # [18:09] <Zakim> sorry, cabanier, I do not recognize a party named '206.675.aaa'
  122. # [18:09] <Zakim> + +1.206.324.aabb
  123. # [18:09] <cabanier> Zakim, +206.675.aaa is me
  124. # [18:09] <Zakim> sorry, cabanier, I do not recognize a party named '+206.675.aaa'
  125. # [18:09] <sylvaing> Zakim, aabb is sylvaing
  126. # [18:09] <Zakim> +sylvaing; got it
  127. # [18:09] <glazou> cabanier: I already did it
  128. # [18:09] * Joins: florian (florianr@91.203.96.240)
  129. # [18:09] <cabanier> Thanks!
  130. # [18:09] <dstorey> I'll be on IRC only today. Don't have phone access right now
  131. # [18:10] <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
  132. # [18:10] <glazou> dstorey: ok
  133. # [18:10] <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
  134. # [18:10] <Zakim> + +47.23.69.aacc
  135. # [18:10] <Zakim> +??P24
  136. # [18:10] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  137. # [18:10] <Zakim> + +1.415.308.aadd
  138. # [18:10] <florian> Zakim, I am aacc
  139. # [18:10] <Zakim> +florian; got it
  140. # [18:10] * Joins: JohnJansen (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  141. # [18:11] * Joins: smfr (smfr@173.228.90.242)
  142. # [18:11] <JohnJansen> Zakim, Microsoft has JohnJansen
  143. # [18:11] <Zakim> +JohnJansen; got it
  144. # [18:11] <Zakim> + +1.206.390.aaee
  145. # [18:11] <Zakim> + +93550aaff
  146. # [18:11] <stearns> zakim, aaee is me
  147. # [18:11] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
  148. # [18:11] <Zakim> + +1.604.312.aagg
  149. # [18:11] <antonp> Zakim, aaff is me
  150. # [18:11] <Zakim> +stearns; got it
  151. # [18:11] * Joins: Katie (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  152. # [18:11] <Zakim> +antonp; got it
  153. # [18:11] <fantasai> sylvaing: http://lea.verou.me/2012/08/lea-at-w3-org/
  154. # [18:11] <florian> Zakim, aacc has lstorset
  155. # [18:11] <Zakim> +??P43
  156. # [18:11] <Zakim> sorry, florian, I do not recognize a party named 'aacc'
  157. # [18:11] <glenn> zakim, ??p43 is me
  158. # [18:12] <Zakim> +??P45
  159. # [18:12] <Zakim> +glenn; got it
  160. # [18:12] <Zakim> + +1.408.636.aahh
  161. # [18:12] <smfr> Zakin, aahh is me
  162. # [18:12] <florian> Zakim, florian has lstorset
  163. # [18:12] <Zakim> +lstorset; got it
  164. # [18:12] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.aa]
  165. # [18:13] <arronei_> zakim, microsoft has me
  166. # [18:13] <Zakim> +arronei_; got it
  167. # [18:13] <smfr> maybe lea can get them to fix zakim
  168. # [18:13] <glazou> eheh
  169. # [18:13] <Zakim> + +1.415.766.aaii
  170. # [18:13] <dbaron> Zakim, aaii is dbaron
  171. # [18:13] <Zakim> +dbaron; got it
  172. # [18:13] <glazou> Zakim, who is here?
  173. # [18:13] <Zakim> On the phone I see fantasai, glazou, cabanier, Bert, sylvaing, florian, ??P24, +1.415.308.aadd, [Microsoft], stearns, antonp, [Microsoft.a], +1.604.312.aagg, glenn, ??P45,
  174. # [18:13] <Zakim> ... +1.408.636.aahh, [Microsoft.aa], dbaron
  175. # [18:13] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has arronei_
  176. # [18:13] <Zakim> florian has lstorset
  177. # [18:14] <Zakim> On IRC I see Katie, smfr, JohnJansen, florian, lstorset, dstorey, antonp, dbaron, cabanier, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, Ms2ger, glenn, Ankh, florianr, drublic, SimonSapin, leaverou,
  178. # [18:14] <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
  179. # [18:14] <Zakim> ... SteveZ, krijnh, arronei_, isherman, TabAtkins, shepazu, decadance, alexmog, sylvaing, shans, vhardy, CSSWG_LogBot, logbot, Bert, jwir3, dglazkov, gsnedders, stearns, trackbot,
  180. # [18:14] <Zakim> ... heycam|away, paul___irish, hober, fantasai, plinss, Hixie
  181. # [18:14] <fantasai> glazou: any additions to agenda?
  182. # [18:14] * Joins: TabAtkins_ (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  183. # [18:14] <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/sandiego-2012#participants
  184. # [18:14] * Joins: JohnJansen_ (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  185. # [18:14] <fantasai> glazou: If you plan to attend or not attend, please add your name to the wiki so we know who is coming / when / where
  186. # [18:14] <Zakim> -??P24
  187. # [18:14] <JohnJansen_> Zakim, Microsoft has JohnJansen
  188. # [18:14] <Zakim> +JohnJansen; got it
  189. # [18:14] <fantasai> Florian: For TPAC meeting, Opera is joining Adobe as a sponsor
  190. # [18:15] <fantasai> glazou: Thank you very much
  191. # [18:15] <fantasai> glazou: Any other organization?
  192. # [18:15] <Katie> zakim, [Microsoft.aa] has me
  193. # [18:15] <Zakim> +Katie; got it
  194. # [18:15] <Zakim> + +1.281.305.aajj
  195. # [18:15] <Zakim> +??P59
  196. # [18:15] * Quits: JohnJansen (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  197. # [18:15] <fantasai> Glenn: Sunday before or Sunday after?
  198. # [18:15] <fantasai> glazou: before
  199. # [18:15] <cabanier> link: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/rawfile/4b53107dd95d/compositing/index.html
  200. # [18:15] <fantasai> Topic: Compositing FPWD
  201. # [18:16] <glazou> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/rawfile/tip/compositing/index.html
  202. # [18:16] * Quits: JohnJansen_ (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
  203. # [18:16] <fantasai> Rik: SVGWG already approved to move to FPWD
  204. # [18:16] <fantasai> Rik: Think the spec is in reasonable shape.
  205. # [18:16] <fantasai> Rik: need to get more consensus on CSS keywords
  206. # [18:16] <fantasai> Rik: There are many; some people requesed fewer
  207. # [18:17] <fantasai> Rik: As WD will get more exposure
  208. # [18:17] <fantasai> Rik: e.g. dbaron gave me very good feedback
  209. # [18:17] <fantasai> Rik: Think it's in readable shape, would like to move to WD
  210. # [18:17] <fantasai> glazou: Opinions?
  211. # [18:17] <fantasai> Florian: I haven't read everything, but I like it so, yeah
  212. # [18:17] <stearns> Tab: I approve
  213. # [18:17] <fantasai> dbaron: The biggest thing I was worried about was z-ordering stuff, possible I confused people
  214. # [18:17] <Zakim> +SteveZ
  215. # [18:18] <fantasai> dbaron: If it's either fixed, or there's a note that it needs to be fixed, I'm ok with it
  216. # [18:18] * Joins: krit (krit@24.4.186.73)
  217. # [18:18] <fantasai> Rik: I rewrote it with stacking context, like you said, and linked to Appendix E
  218. # [18:18] <krit> Zakim, who os here?
  219. # [18:18] <fantasai> Rik: ... add an example that shows what is happening, ppl will not get confused.
  220. # [18:18] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, krit.
  221. # [18:18] <krit> Zakim, who is here?
  222. # [18:18] <Zakim> On the phone I see fantasai, glazou, cabanier, Bert, sylvaing, florian, +1.415.308.aadd, [Microsoft], stearns, antonp, [Microsoft.a], +1.604.312.aagg, glenn, ??P45,
  223. # [18:18] <Zakim> ... +1.408.636.aahh, [Microsoft.aa], dbaron, +1.281.305.aajj, ??P59, SteveZ
  224. # [18:18] <TabAtkins_> ScribeNick: TabAtkins
  225. # [18:18] <Zakim> [Microsoft.aa] has Katie
  226. # [18:19] * sylvaing the kids love blending!
  227. # [18:19] <Zakim> florian has lstorset
  228. # [18:19] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has JohnJansen
  229. # [18:19] <TabAtkins_> glazou: So, no objections against FPWD of compositing?
  230. # [18:19] <Zakim> On IRC I see krit, TabAtkins_, Katie, smfr, florian, lstorset, dstorey, antonp, dbaron, cabanier, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, Ms2ger, glenn, Ankh, florianr, drublic, SimonSapin,
  231. # [18:19] <krit> Zakim, aadd is me
  232. # [18:19] <Zakim> ... leaverou, SteveZ, krijnh, arronei_, isherman, TabAtkins, shepazu, decadance, alexmog, sylvaing, shans, vhardy, CSSWG_LogBot, logbot, Bert, jwir3, dglazkov, gsnedders, stearns,
  233. # [18:19] <TabAtkins_> glazou: Okay, so let's do that.
  234. # [18:19] * Joins: JohnJansen (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  235. # [18:19] <Zakim> ... trackbot, heycam|away, paul___irish, hober, fantasai, plinss, Hixie
  236. # [18:19] <TabAtkins_> RESOLVED: Publish FPWD of the Compositing draft.
  237. # [18:19] <Zakim> -fantasai
  238. # [18:19] * Joins: rbetts (rbetts@24.84.208.90)
  239. # [18:19] <JohnJansen> Zakim, Microsoft has JohnJansen
  240. # [18:19] <Zakim> +krit; got it
  241. # [18:19] <Zakim> JohnJansen was already listed in [Microsoft], JohnJansen
  242. # [18:19] <Zakim> +fantasai
  243. # [18:20] <Zakim> + +1.619.846.aakk
  244. # [18:20] <fantasai> glazou: Anything else wrt compositing?
  245. # [18:20] <fantasai> Topic: Flexbox
  246. # [18:20] <TabAtkins_> Topic: Flexbox
  247. # [18:20] <fantasai> Bert: It's part of CSS and SVG, who does the publishing, is that me?
  248. # [18:20] <fantasai> Rik: I think it's part of CSS, so we opened a Bugzilla as part of CSS
  249. # [18:21] <fantasai> Rik: FX will not get as much exposure, and it's not specific to SVG, just adding CSS properties
  250. # [18:21] <fantasai> Rik: Let me know if I need to change anything
  251. # [18:21] <glazou> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-flexbox/
  252. # [18:21] <hober> Zakim, aakk is me
  253. # [18:21] <Zakim> +hober; got it
  254. # [18:21] <fantasai> ACTION Bert: Publish Compositing FPWD
  255. # [18:21] * RRSAgent records action 1
  256. # [18:21] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  257. # [18:21] <trackbot> Created ACTION-487 - Publish Compositing FPWD [on Bert Bos - due 2012-08-08].
  258. # [18:21] <fantasai> TOpic: Flexbox
  259. # [18:21] * sylvaing CR? We've run out of things to rename? YAY
  260. # [18:21] <fantasai> Tab: We concluded last week with some resolutions that should cover what we need to do, and left actual resolutions to me and fantasai
  261. # [18:21] * Ms2ger sylvaing: don't jinx it! ;)
  262. # [18:22] <fantasai> Tab: We tried to go with Option D, and to match it thematically with how abspos works in block layout
  263. # [18:22] <fantasai> Tab: You look for your next/previous item and attach it there
  264. # [18:22] <fantasai> Tab: fantasai worked out how to treat it as a placeholder and just do some packing-space suppression
  265. # [18:22] <fantasai> Florian: As long as Morten is happy, it's good with me
  266. # [18:23] <fantasai> szilles: If there's a sequence of abspos, they are processed and attached to the same edge
  267. # [18:23] <fantasai> fantasai: yes
  268. # [18:23] <fantasai> szilles: And order means that I don't choose the adjacent edge until after I've finished reordering.
  269. # [18:23] <fantasai> szilles: If you could make the wording a little more obvious in that direciton, would be helpful
  270. # [18:23] <fantasai> Tab: wrt first one, we do talk about in-flow items--abspos is out of flow
  271. # [18:23] <fantasai> Tab: Second one, we're explicit that you run reordering first.
  272. # [18:24] <fantasai> Florian: Maybe clarify in a note or something
  273. # [18:24] <fantasai> Morten's response - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Aug/0023.html
  274. # [18:24] <fantasai> szilles: great job
  275. # [18:24] <fantasai> Tab: One bit that's important, last week WG officially resolved that 'order' doesn't apply to abspos
  276. # [18:25] <fantasai> Tab: Wanted to ask WG if ok with reverting that.
  277. # [18:25] <fantasai> Tab: As written right now, order affects the abspos.
  278. # [18:25] <fantasai> Florian: Sounds fine to me. Was only concerned about applying to placeholders.
  279. # [18:25] * Joins: arno (arnog@192.150.10.201)
  280. # [18:25] <fantasai> Tab: Morten's ok with it, and chrome is ok today
  281. # [18:26] * fantasai notes bzbarsky said it would be easy for Gecko
  282. # [18:26] <fantasai> Anton: I'm wondering, do we expect abspos static positioning to work with layout models in this way?
  283. # [18:26] <fantasai> Anton: It's ok, but I think we need to think about the consequences with other layout models
  284. # [18:26] <fantasai> Anton: Note also that float or clear doesn't affect abspos
  285. # [18:27] <fantasai> Anton: Might decide that's an anomaly
  286. # [18:27] <fantasai> fantasai: or maybe it was added for compat
  287. # [18:28] <fantasai> Tab: Could have principle that do layout, then position abspos
  288. # [18:28] <fantasai> dbaron: Concerned about that. Don't really want to do layout
  289. # [18:28] <fantasai> ...
  290. # [18:29] <fantasai> Florian: I think it's in line with what we called the Rossen Principle. In block layout, if you abspos and don't give coordinates it goes where it would have been
  291. # [18:29] <fantasai> Florian: Flexbox does roughly the same thing
  292. # [18:29] <fantasai> Florian: Don't think anything very different here wrt high-level view
  293. # [18:29] <fantasai> Tab: I think dbaron just wants a clarification of whether for future models you do any work
  294. # [18:30] <fantasai> Florian: Hard to discuss without a specific case in mind
  295. # [18:30] <fantasai> Rossen: Wrt Grid, we always position in the origin of a grid cell in Grid
  296. # [18:30] <fantasai> Rossen: You honor grid-row/grid-column positioning, but otherwise put in origin
  297. # [18:31] <fantasai> Rossen: I do agree that higher-order question of should follow block/flow layout model in other layout models, where that doesn't make any sense?
  298. # [18:31] <fantasai> Rossen: Or go with something simpler, like Tab was suggesting (origin of flex container) last week
  299. # [18:32] <dbaron> Rossen: I'm still in favor of going for something simpler in layout models that have no concept of flow.
  300. # [18:32] * fantasai thanks
  301. # [18:32] <fantasai> ...
  302. # [18:32] * krit Yet another flexbox discussion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groundhog_Day_(film) :)
  303. # [18:32] <fantasai> szilles: Positioning of flexboxes is ...
  304. # [18:32] * fantasai reminds everyone that we should close the topic
  305. # [18:32] <dbaron> For reference, my position in last week's straw poll would have been A.
  306. # [18:33] <fantasai> Tab: Want to request resolution of reversing order, and of going to CR
  307. # [18:33] <fantasai> RESOLVED: order affects abspos, Flexbox goes to CR
  308. # [18:33] <fantasai> ACTION Bert: send Flexbox CR transition request
  309. # [18:33] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  310. # [18:33] * RRSAgent records action 2
  311. # [18:33] <trackbot> Created ACTION-488 - Send Flexbox CR transition request [on Bert Bos - due 2012-08-08].
  312. # [18:34] <fantasai> dbaron: The idea of this model is that you apply order to the abspos to figure out where it goes in the order, and then use that as the static positoin?
  313. # [18:34] <fantasai> Tab: yes
  314. # [18:35] <fantasai> Anton: You're not really treating it as a flex item, you're using order to figure out which item is the next/previous item to attach its position to
  315. # [18:35] * Quits: arno (arnog@192.150.10.201) (Quit: Leaving.)
  316. # [18:35] <fantasai> dbaron: So I'm not really happy with adding 100 lines of code for something I haven't heard a use case for
  317. # [18:35] <fantasai> Tab: Brad produced some things in the mail thread
  318. # [18:36] <fantasai> fantasai: ...
  319. # [18:36] <fantasai> glazou: But you are not objecting to the change?
  320. # [18:36] <fantasai> dbaron: No. Close to it, but no.
  321. # [18:36] <fantasai> glazou: Ok, let's move on
  322. # [18:36] <fantasai> Topic: Transforms
  323. # [18:36] * sylvaing #dbaron { objection: 0.99; /* that was close */ }
  324. # [18:36] <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/topics/transform-interpolation
  325. # [18:36] * sylvaing weren't we going to go to CR?
  326. # [18:36] <fantasai> Krit: Issue was ...
  327. # [18:37] * fantasai fails to catch enough
  328. # [18:37] <fantasai> Krit: Request from implementers that we don't do that, that we interpolate on each function pair
  329. # [18:37] <fantasai> Krit: So changed the spec to do interpolate on function pairs
  330. # [18:37] <fantasai> Krit: For perspective we do matrix decompse then interpolate [??]
  331. # [18:37] <fantasai> Krit: Thought it'd be a perf issue, but browsers didn't think so
  332. # [18:38] * stearns sylvain: look a bit upstream - there's a resolution there
  333. # [18:38] <fantasai> Krit: Have request from smfr that functions along same axis are interpolated, not matrix
  334. # [18:38] <fantasai> glazou: In thread WebKit says they can't change to the preferred way anyway
  335. # [18:38] <fantasai> smfr: Could, but would prefer not to
  336. # [18:38] <fantasai> dbaron: I was originally askin ght espec change back to what it used to be
  337. # [18:39] <glazou> s/in thread/in wiki
  338. # [18:39] <fantasai> dbaron: Also worried in general that this spec changes too much in ways that are incompatible with Web content
  339. # [18:39] * sylvaing stearns: yes, my bad. thanks!
  340. # [18:39] <fantasai> dbaron: Afraid might have to come back 3 months and have to request revert of changes
  341. # [18:39] <fantasai> dbaron: But can't say sooner than 3 months
  342. # [18:39] <fantasai> Krit: Can you be more specific?
  343. # [18:39] <fantasai> dbaron: There's a lot of content using this
  344. # [18:40] <fantasai> dbaron: They stuff the result of all prefixed values into the same variable and use it the same way
  345. # [18:40] <fantasai> dbaron: prefixes isn't getting us anything ehre
  346. # [18:40] <fantasai> smfr: Risk of interpolating transforms is in cases where we used to not do convert then decompose, cases where we would now if we change the spec
  347. # [18:40] <fantasai> smfr: The spec is going away from using matrix interpolation, which is a good thing
  348. # [18:40] <fantasai> dbaron: Yes, worried about changing things *to* matrix interpolation
  349. # [18:41] <fantasai> Krit: ... feedback on specific part that need changed, I change it
  350. # [18:41] <fantasai> dbaron: was specified when I implemented it. If it's not anynmore, someone deleted it
  351. # [18:41] <fantasai> smfr: notion of premitives and derived
  352. # [18:41] <sylvaing> I am also worried about making incompatible changes at this point
  353. # [18:41] <fantasai> smfr: e.g. translateX will interolated with translate
  354. # [18:41] <fantasai> smfr: WebKit didn't implement that
  355. # [18:41] <fantasai> Krit: ...
  356. # [18:42] <fantasai> Florian: I'm not very up to speed on how this behaves, but do completely agree with dbaron
  357. # [18:42] <dbaron> Gecko implemented that a few weeks ago, but we haven't shipped it yet.
  358. # [18:42] <sylvaing> at a minimum testcases showing some level of interop are warranted
  359. # [18:42] <fantasai> Florian: Used too much to be changed without trouble
  360. # [18:42] <sylvaing> (or lack thereof)
  361. # [18:42] <fantasai> Florian: Need to document things, but not change suboptimal behavior
  362. # [18:42] <fantasai> smfr: But whose implementation do we pick? Webkit, Gecko, Opera, IE?
  363. # [18:42] <fantasai> sylvaing: Need to write some test cases to figure that out
  364. # [18:43] <fantasai> Krit: These changes several months ago,
  365. # [18:43] <fantasai> Krit: even translatex and translate, was something not specified before, just sayd "transform function of he same type", had to address, what does "same type" even mean
  366. # [18:43] <fantasai> Krit: So we said "transform function with same name"
  367. # [18:43] <fantasai> Krit: This is different from editors
  368. # [18:43] <fantasai> Krit: I'm fine with changing everything to match transform names
  369. # [18:44] <fantasai> Krit: Still think it's useful for translate functions to interpolate
  370. # [18:44] <fantasai> Krit: e.g. you have translate() and translateX()
  371. # [18:44] <fantasai> Krit: with your interpretation we need to decompose to a matrix
  372. # [18:44] <fantasai> Krit: whereas I would prefer a numeric intrpolation
  373. # [18:44] <fantasai> smfr: I agree, that's better
  374. # [18:44] <fantasai> smfr: I think that's safe, because in the direction of less matrix interpolation
  375. # [18:44] <fantasai> Krit: Same issue with scaleX
  376. # [18:45] <krit> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-transforms/#transform-primitives
  377. # [18:45] <fantasai> Krit: Things that are affected are scale(), translate3D() and ??
  378. # [18:45] <fantasai> Krit: Not sure that's implemented by browsers, I don't think so
  379. # [18:45] <fantasai> Krit: But from our pov seems useful
  380. # [18:45] <fantasai> smfr: Seems unlikely that these changes break content
  381. # [18:45] <fantasai> smfr: one thing that happens when you fall into matrix interpolation is that you lose rotations greater than 360 deg
  382. # [18:46] <fantasai> smfr: So if someone has a high deg rotation and has one of these functions, you fall into matrix interpolation
  383. # [18:46] <fantasai> smfr: might be ppl doing that now
  384. # [18:46] <fantasai> Krit: second request, you said you'd like to interpolate between that and ....??????
  385. # [18:46] <fantasai> Krit: so rotations around same axis, would like to interpolate
  386. # [18:46] <fantasai> smfr: WebKit will interpolate between rotate?() and rotate??()
  387. # [18:47] <fantasai> smfr: And for rotate3d() will check if axes match, otherwise go to matrix path
  388. # [18:47] <fantasai> smfr: that's just for that 1 function
  389. # [18:47] <fantasai> smfr: I believe it will fill due to transform individualy in the list if there are rotate3Ds in corresponding places even if axes are different
  390. # [18:47] * fantasai has no idea what's going on and hopes the minutes sortof make sense
  391. # [18:47] <fantasai> dbaron is fine with that
  392. # [18:47] <fantasai> Krit: Everything else, implementers requested it. So should be ok
  393. # [18:48] <fantasai> Florian: In general I would like to see test cases for these, to check if we are picking the interoperable solution
  394. # [18:48] * Quits: JohnJansen (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  395. # [18:49] <fantasai> Florian: If there is a difference, we need to figure out whether we want good or compatible
  396. # [18:49] <dbaron> It's really easy to write script tests for interpolation by using a negative transition-delay.
  397. # [18:49] <fantasai> Florian: These are used a lot out there, so we can't break compatibility
  398. # [18:49] <fantasai> some question of how to write testcases
  399. # [18:49] * Quits: drublic (drublic@80.152.164.43) (Client exited)
  400. # [18:49] <fantasai> fantasai: Can always write a manual test
  401. # [18:49] * Joins: drublic (drublic@80.152.164.43)
  402. # [18:49] <fantasai> fantasai: That's good enough to see what browsers are doing for purpose of speccing it
  403. # [18:50] * Joins: jet (jet@67.169.43.128)
  404. # [18:50] <fantasai> Topic: CSS2.1
  405. # [18:50] <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2012JulSep/0090.html
  406. # [18:50] * Joins: JohnJansen (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  407. # [18:50] <fantasai> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2012JulSep/0101.html
  408. # [18:51] <glazou> first issue is marked as [A] ?!? shocking :-)
  409. # [18:51] <fantasai> Anton: First one is follow-up on adding concept of formatting contexts
  410. # [18:51] <fantasai> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17121#c2 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17121#c5 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17122#c1 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15686#c2
  411. # [18:51] <fantasai> Anton: Rossen wanted it clearer when a box establishes an inline formatting context
  412. # [18:51] * Quits: SimonSapin (simon@82.232.219.95) (Ping timeout)
  413. # [18:51] <fantasai> fantasai: Those edits all look good to me
  414. # [18:52] <fantasai> Anton: proposal to satisfy Rossen is https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17121#c5
  415. # [18:52] <fantasai> Anton: This was what was implied in the text before, now just explicitly stating it
  416. # [18:52] <fantasai> Rossen: Change sounds good to me
  417. # [18:52] * Quits: drublic (drublic@80.152.164.43) (Ping timeout)
  418. # [18:52] <stearns> looks good to me
  419. # [18:53] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Accept edits listed above
  420. # [18:53] <fantasai> Item B
  421. # [18:53] <fantasai> Anton: We raised issue that there was no interop on whether overflow affects wrapper box or table box
  422. # [18:53] <fantasai> Anton: Agreed to implement whatever most widely implemented
  423. # [18:53] <fantasai> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17121#c5
  424. # [18:53] <antonp> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17505#c6
  425. # [18:54] <fantasai> Anton: Answer was some UAs are using the table box (Gecko and Trident) whereas WebKit and Opera 12 seemd to apply to wrapper box but doing something weird
  426. # [18:54] <fantasai> Anton: Which one resolve to?
  427. # [18:55] <fantasai> fantasai: height applies to table box, so makes sense for overflow to also apply to table box
  428. # [18:55] <fantasai> dbaron: What values of overflow apply to the table box?
  429. # [18:55] <fantasai> Anton: Didn't investigate that one. Personally tested overflow: hidden
  430. # [18:55] <fantasai> Florian: We'll align with whatever sensible behavior we agree on
  431. # [18:56] <fantasai> fantasai: Do we want to resolve that 'overflow' applies to the table box, and later figure out whether 'overflow: scroll' applies?
  432. # [18:56] <fantasai> dbaron: I'm reading the spec, and the spec says overflow doesn't apply to tables
  433. # [18:57] <fantasai> Anton: We have bugs, we know that is kind-of wrong
  434. # [18:57] <fantasai> Anton: In reality it does apply to tables, it's a question of which box it applies to
  435. # [18:57] <fantasai> Anton: The formatting context edits will fix the Applies to line
  436. # [18:57] <fantasai> Anton: But first we have to resolve on is the table box or table wrapper box
  437. # [18:58] <fantasai> Florian: Test results sound good enough reason to say apply to table box
  438. # [18:58] * Joins: Rossen (Rossen@131.107.192.20)
  439. # [18:58] <Zakim> -krit
  440. # [18:58] <fantasai> Florian: Is anyone disagreeing?
  441. # [18:58] * krit needs to go
  442. # [18:59] <fantasai> Bert: Don't see how it would affect table
  443. # [18:59] <Zakim> -??P45
  444. # [18:59] <fantasai> fantasai: could have a fixed-height div inside a cell, that has overflowing content
  445. # [18:59] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.aaa]
  446. # [18:59] <fantasai> Anton: Question is where do we truncate it, or where do we put the scroll bar
  447. # [18:59] * Joins: arno (arnog@192.150.10.201)
  448. # [18:59] <Rossen> Zakim, [Microsoft.aaa] is me
  449. # [18:59] <Zakim> +Rossen; got it
  450. # [18:59] <fantasai> Bert: Isn't it easiest to say it doesn't apply?
  451. # [19:00] <fantasai> glazou: I'm still not hearing any important change or removal on this issue...
  452. # [19:01] <fantasai> glazou: Do we need more time?
  453. # [19:01] <fantasai> dbaron: I'm trying to figure out why we do anything for overflow on tables
  454. # [19:01] <fantasai> dbaron: I haven't found the code yet
  455. # [19:02] <fantasai> dbaron: I'm concerned about saying that overflow applies to tables
  456. # [19:03] <fantasai> dbaron: Not sure anyone applies values other than 'hidden' to tables
  457. # [19:03] <sylvaing> +1
  458. # [19:03] <fantasai> Anton: The spec used to say it applied to tables, but during the terminology fixes, it accidentally got removed
  459. # [19:03] <fantasai> Anton: Separate question of whether we want that or not
  460. # [19:04] <fantasai> Florian: Not exactly excited for 'overflow: paged' applying to tables
  461. # [19:04] <fantasai> dbaron: Found list of where we support 'overflow: hidden' but not other overflow values --
  462. # [19:04] <fantasai> dbaron: table cells, tables, and SVG stuff
  463. # [19:05] <dbaron> table, table cell, svg:svg, svg:foreignObject
  464. # [19:05] <fantasai> Florian: Is anyone interested in other values on table
  465. # [19:05] <fantasai> Florian: Or should we just spec that only 'hidden' applies
  466. # [19:07] <Zakim> -Rossen
  467. # [19:07] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  468. # [19:07] <fantasai> glazou: suggest deferring to next week
  469. # [19:07] * Quits: JohnJansen (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
  470. # [19:07] <fantasai> Arronei offers to help Anton work on testcases
  471. # [19:09] <fantasai> Topic: CSS3 Text
  472. # [19:09] * Rossen can't re-join the call for whatever reason
  473. # [19:09] <glazou> because it's almost ended
  474. # [19:09] <fantasai> fantasai: Thinking about publishing WD
  475. # [19:09] <fantasai> fantasai: Would like people to review
  476. # [19:09] * sylvaing Rossen, Zakim considers you an invalid declaration
  477. # [19:09] <Rossen> in that case - talk to you next week :-)
  478. # [19:09] <Zakim> - +1.604.312.aagg
  479. # [19:10] <fantasai> fantasai: Also thinking about splitting it, with text decoration parts in separate module
  480. # [19:10] <Zakim> -dbaron
  481. # [19:10] <Zakim> -glenn
  482. # [19:10] <Zakim> -hober
  483. # [19:10] <rbetts> Zakim, aagg was rbetts
  484. # [19:10] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  485. # [19:10] <Zakim> I don't understand 'aagg was rbetts', rbetts
  486. # [19:10] <Zakim> - +1.281.305.aajj
  487. # [19:10] <Zakim> -fantasai
  488. # [19:10] <stearns> antonp: I have a couple questions on your item [C] we didn't get to today
  489. # [19:10] <Zakim> - +1.408.636.aahh
  490. # [19:10] <fantasai> szilles: where would parts common to both go?
  491. # [19:10] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.aa]
  492. # [19:10] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
  493. # [19:10] <fantasai> fantasai: There aren't really any
  494. # [19:10] * Quits: Rossen (Rossen@131.107.192.20) (Quit: Rossen)
  495. # [19:10] * Quits: Katie (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
  496. # [19:10] * Quits: rbetts (rbetts@24.84.208.90) (Quit: rbetts)
  497. # [19:11] <fantasai> fantasai: It's a very long module
  498. # [19:11] <fantasai> glazou: Everyone, please add agenda items to F2F wiki
  499. # [19:11] <Zakim> -florian
  500. # [19:11] <Zakim> -Bert
  501. # [19:11] <Zakim> -antonp
  502. # [19:11] <Zakim> -glazou
  503. # [19:11] <Zakim> -sylvaing
  504. # [19:11] <fantasai> Meeting closed.
  505. # [19:11] <Zakim> -stearns
  506. # [19:11] <Zakim> -cabanier
  507. # [19:11] * fantasai requests someone to look over the minutes of the transforms stuff and fix the ??? bits?? please??
  508. # [19:11] <glazou> fantasai: ask cabanier
  509. # [19:11] <Zakim> -??P59
  510. # [19:11] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  511. # [19:11] <Zakim> Attendees were fantasai, glazou, +1.206.675.aaaa, Bert, cabanier, +1.206.324.aabb, sylvaing, +47.23.69.aacc, +1.415.308.aadd, JohnJansen, +1.206.390.aaee, +93550aaff, [Microsoft],
  512. # [19:11] <Zakim> ... +1.604.312.aagg, stearns, antonp, glenn, +1.408.636.aahh, lstorset, arronei_, +1.415.766.aaii, dbaron, Katie, +1.281.305.aajj, SteveZ, krit, +1.619.846.aakk, hober, Rossen
  513. # [19:12] * glazou runs
  514. # [19:12] * Quits: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19) (Quit: glazou)
  515. # [19:12] <stearns> s/cabinier/krit/
  516. # [19:12] <stearns> for transforms stuff
  517. # [19:12] <stearns> grr - cabanier
  518. # [19:13] <cabanier> :-)
  519. # [19:13] <stearns> antonp: ping
  520. # [19:15] * Quits: smfr (smfr@173.228.90.242) (Quit: smfr)
  521. # [19:15] <krit> stearns: was my name on transforms stuff?!?
  522. # [19:16] <fantasai> krit: I need help fixing holes in the minutes :)
  523. # [19:16] <krit> oh, looking
  524. # [19:16] <stearns> krit: look back for ??? in the minutes when you were speaking, and see if you can fill in the details
  525. # [19:18] <krit> s/So we said "transform function with same name"/So we say "transform function with same name"?/
  526. # [19:18] * Joins: miketaylr (miketaylr@70.112.101.224)
  527. # [19:18] <fantasai> lol
  528. # [19:18] <fantasai> I can fix all the typos and things :)
  529. # [19:18] <fantasai> it's the missing info that I can't fix!
  530. # [19:18] <stearns> you can make stuff up
  531. # [19:18] <krit> s/Things that are affected are scale(), translate3D() and ??/Things that are affected are scale(), translate(), translate3d() and scale3d()
  532. # [19:19] <krit> stearns: ?
  533. # [19:19] <stearns> (sorry, lame attempt at humor)
  534. # [19:19] <krit> ahhh. Don't use make-up :P
  535. # [19:20] * Quits: lstorset (lastorset@91.203.96.240) (Ping timeout)
  536. # [19:20] * Quits: florian (florianr@91.203.96.240) (Ping timeout)
  537. # [19:22] <krit> s/second request, you said you'd like to interpolate between that and ….??????/second request, you said you'd like to interpolate between rotate3d along same axis?/
  538. # [19:23] <stearns> antonp: added my questions to https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18346
  539. # [19:23] <krit> s/WebKit will interpolate between rotate?() and rotate??()/WebKit will interpolate between rotateZ() and rotate()/
  540. # [19:24] <krit> fantasai: think that are the important information
  541. # [19:24] <fantasai> thanks krit!
  542. # [19:26] <antonp> Thanks Alan, I'll address them
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  554. # [21:11] * sylvaing is now known as sylvaing_away
  555. # [21:11] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I'm heading to MV to meet up with aharon tomorrow. Want to hang out afterwards and work on stuff?
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  575. # Session Close: Thu Aug 02 00:00:00 2012

The end :)