/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2012-08-07 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Aug 07 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #css
  3. # [00:00] * Joins: Liam (liam@128.30.52.169)
  4. # [00:10] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Webkit allows flex: <flex-grow> <flex-basis> <flex-shrink>
  5. # [00:11] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Is that considered a bug, or is that something you want to fix in the spec?
  6. # [00:12] * fantasai wonders what MSIE does
  7. # [00:13] <fantasai> arronei?
  8. # [00:13] <TabAtkins> Hm, that should be a bug on our side. I expect I can just fix it.
  9. # [00:14] <fantasai> It is perfectly unambiguous
  10. # [00:14] <fantasai> so either way works
  11. # [00:15] <TabAtkins> Not quite - if the "basis must have a unit" thing isn't a UA-level requirement, then "1 0" is ambiguous.
  12. # [00:15] <TabAtkins> Given that possible ordering, that is.
  13. # [00:15] <fantasai> ah
  14. # [00:15] <fantasai> yeah
  15. # [00:15] <fantasai> Let me see if I can clarify up that section of the spec
  16. # [00:16] <fantasai> I also need to clarify the difference between 'flex-basis' value and the used flex basis...
  17. # [00:22] <TabAtkins> hober: Should we be promoting image-set() for immediate review and discussion so it can get quick adoption (possibly integration into the Images 3 CR after a quick LC go-round)?
  18. # [00:22] <TabAtkins> I think it's already appeared in Safari, right? I'd prefer that features in production be given an appropriately mature status.
  19. # [00:22] <TabAtkins> Also: when is it showing up in iOS?
  20. # [00:24] * Quits: Liam (liam@128.30.52.169) (Ping timeout)
  21. # [00:24] <fantasai> TabAtkins: No, we are not pulling Images 3 back from CR.
  22. # [00:25] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Make restricted Level 4
  23. # [00:25] <TabAtkins> Then we're pushing a level 4 to CR while 3 is still there, too. That's fine with me, it just sounds weird. ^_^
  24. # [00:25] <TabAtkins> It's functionally equivalent.
  25. # [00:25] <fantasai> Yeah, sure, I don't see what's the problem with that
  26. # [00:25] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Note element() is also shipping
  27. # [00:26] <fantasai> TabAtkins: So by that criteria, they should both go to CR together
  28. # [00:26] <TabAtkins> Yeah, but just in Firefox. I'm afraid of things shipping in iOS, as that locks things in harder than FF shipping something.
  29. # [00:26] <TabAtkins> By my metrics, Firefox > Safari, but iOS > Firefox.
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  31. # [00:27] <TabAtkins> But I definitely want to lock down details of element() too, yeah.
  32. # [00:27] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I think we need FPWD before we can "lock" anything down :) :)
  33. # [00:27] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Will you have one ready for next week?
  34. # [00:27] * Joins: tantek (tantek@206.15.76.122)
  35. # [00:27] <TabAtkins> You mean this Wednesday, or next Wednesday?
  36. # [00:27] <fantasai> next Monday
  37. # [00:27] <fantasai> at the F2F
  38. # [00:27] <TabAtkins> Yes, i will.
  39. # [00:27] <fantasai> cool
  40. # [00:28] * fantasai is still stuck working on Flexbox
  41. # [00:28] <TabAtkins> I'm going to spend this week doing some webkit coding, but the few remaining things I want to do with Images 4 I can get done on the weekend.
  42. # [00:29] <fantasai> TabAtkins: It'd be a good idea to give people more than 5 minutes to review the draft before you talk about it at the F2F :)
  43. # [00:29] <tantek> fantasai - where's the document/spec restyling/reformatting stuff on your priority list? (wondering if we should spend a few cycles together on it before SD)
  44. # [00:29] <TabAtkins> Request denied.
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  46. # [00:29] <tantek> TabAtkins - LOL
  47. # [00:29] <TabAtkins> I'll edit *while* I'm talking about it.
  48. # [00:29] <tantek> that's the spirit!
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  50. # [00:30] <fantasai> tantek: Below a bunch of stuff, but it needs to happen...
  51. # [00:30] <fantasai> tantek: I'd like to have something by TPAC
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  53. # [00:30] <tantek> lots of things need to happen - was just curious how much it was a priority for your, relative to other things.
  54. # [00:30] <tantek> for you*
  55. # [00:30] <tantek> ok
  56. # [00:30] <fantasai> tantek: Which means *we* need to be done with our part septemberish so we can hand it off to someone with design skills
  57. # [00:31] <tantek> yeah
  58. # [00:31] <tantek> I'm wondering if there are any components we can cut.
  59. # [00:31] <fantasai> tantek: I also want to figure out what it'll take to overahaul W3C's publishing process.
  60. # [00:31] <fantasai> tantek: data-wise? I don't think so.
  61. # [00:32] <tantek> Or rather, wondering what would happen if we started with a really minimal structure that just happened to leave out a bunch of cruft we don't care about
  62. # [00:32] <fantasai> tantek: like what?
  63. # [00:32] <tantek> and see if anyone notices
  64. # [00:33] <fantasai> tantek, you're dealing with a bunch of spec writers, lawyers, and other OCD folks, I'm not sure hoping they won't "notice" is a promising strategy :)
  65. # [00:34] <fantasai> tantek: I think the best we can do is show how compact we can make it, how much we can defer to the end of the document while preserving usability
  66. # [00:35] <fantasai> tantek: basically, meta-navigation needs to be accessible above the fold
  67. # [00:35] <fantasai> tantek: so for that our best hope is to make it compact
  68. # [00:35] <tantek> fantasai - given the large number of things broken at W3C which spec writers, lawyers, and other OCD folks "don't notice" or don't appear to notice, or appear to not care about, I'd say I have a pretty good chance to dropping a whole lot of bureaucratic crap.
  69. # [00:36] <tantek> chance *of
  70. # [00:36] <fantasai> tantek: Well, I don't know what you want to drop
  71. # [00:36] <fantasai> tantek: we can't drop the copyright/licensing notices
  72. # [00:36] <tantek> I'm going to start the other way
  73. # [00:36] <tantek> I'm going to start with only what authors and implementers need
  74. # [00:37] <tantek> and when I'm done putting it back together, if there are leftover screws and nuts on the machine room floor, I'm not going to worry about them.
  75. # [00:38] <tantek> but since you mentioned copyright/licensing notices, I'll assume that's your particular favorite, and be sure to keep that in.
  76. # [00:39] <fantasai> it's not my favorite :)
  77. # [00:39] <fantasai> but it's required
  78. # [00:39] <tantek> anybody else have any particular favorites?
  79. # [00:39] <fantasai> My favorites are the links to the discussion lists, issues lists, test suite, and revision history
  80. # [00:39] <fantasai> because I actually use those
  81. # [00:39] <fantasai> I'd also like to keep the title if you don't mind :)
  82. # [00:40] * fantasai thinks documents look better with titles than without ;)
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  84. # [00:40] * fantasai thinks if we can strip out the CR exit criteria, the remaining boilerplate will be manageable
  85. # [00:42] <fantasai> tantek: Did you see the version Robin Berjon and I posted?
  86. # [00:42] * tantek prefers to start more minimal than people find acceptable, then see what people actually complain about and add a few things to make them happy.
  87. # [00:42] <tantek> fantasai - did you link to it from the wiki page?
  88. # [00:42] <fantasai> I don't think so...
  89. # [00:42] <tantek> then unlikely
  90. # [00:43] <fantasai> tantek: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/spec-prod/2012JulSep/0000.html
  91. # [00:43] <tantek> http://www.w3.org/wiki/Restyle
  92. # [00:43] * fantasai will add it to the wiki
  93. # [00:44] <tantek> thanks
  94. # [00:44] <tantek> ignoring the styling (which I think is more distracting than useful frankly, no offense to karl), I think the structures aren't too bad
  95. # [00:45] <tantek> but more to the point
  96. # [00:45] <tantek> good on you for taking the initiative and iterating with *something* concrete
  97. # [00:45] <tantek> I'll try to see if I can build on your work
  98. # [00:45] <fantasai> ok
  99. # [00:46] <fantasai> Yeah, we're totally ignoring styling for the moment :)
  100. # [00:46] <fantasai> just enough to get the point across of how to organize and compact the information
  101. # [00:47] <fantasai> Phase III will be turning it over to the design community :)
  102. # [00:47] <tantek> I'll see about marking it up with sufficient semantic styling hooks for the styling community to dig into, ala CSS Zen Garden
  103. # [00:48] <tantek> though restyling a spec has got to be fairly boring work, even by standardsistas standards
  104. # [00:48] <fantasai> hehe
  105. # [00:48] <fantasai> I think Karl's post really opened the box on possibilities
  106. # [00:48] <tantek> that's good - opening the box is more important than any one particular proposal/idea
  107. # [00:48] <fantasai> tantek: If you have a better term than "Paraphernalia", btw...
  108. # [00:48] <tantek> LOL
  109. # [00:49] <fantasai> tantek: There were some comments in that thread I haven't incorporated yet
  110. # [00:49] <tantek> yeah, I'd avoid using that term due to its typical association
  111. # [00:49] <tantek> unless that was intended
  112. # [00:49] <tantek> e.g. in this regard: http://www.flickr.com/photos/kaeru/875369568/
  113. # [00:49] <fantasai> lol, no, just to pick something awkward enough that people will make replacement suggestions :)
  114. # [00:50] <fantasai> tantek: One major suggestion was to have a bright obvious notice when a spec becomes outdated, that you're looking at an outdated copy
  115. # [00:50] <hober> TabAtkins: I intentionally proposed it for CSS4 images so it wouldn't hold up CSS3 Images
  116. # [00:51] <fantasai> tantek: And another was to link up to the next level of a levelled/versioned technology
  117. # [00:51] <tantek> we should just make the background yellow parchment for outdated specs
  118. # [00:51] <hober> TabAtkins: yes, it's shipping in Safari 6
  119. # [00:51] <tantek> with cracks and tears
  120. # [00:51] <tantek> hober - don't you mean "shipped" (past tense) ?
  121. # [00:51] <fantasai> tantek: that might be nice, but we also need to explain why it looks weird and link to the latest version :)
  122. # [00:52] <hober> tantek: present tense is correct; safari 6 is the current release. :)
  123. # [00:55] <fantasai> tantek: Yeah, so, if you want to go through the feedback and create an iteration that incorporates those, plus extra styling hooks, that'd be awesome :)
  124. # [00:55] <fantasai> tantek: Please note the CSS there is really really horrible
  125. # [00:55] <tantek> is the feedback linked on the wiki page?
  126. # [00:55] <fantasai> tantek: it is now
  127. # [00:55] <fantasai> tantek: I just linked to the discussion
  128. # [00:55] <tantek> oh yeah no problem (re: the CSS)
  129. # [00:56] <fantasai> tantek: after that, I guess we can post it more broadly and see if we can get buy-in to do this from the rest of the W3C community that's not on spec-prod :)
  130. # [00:57] <tantek> I can also sideline it to Ian Jacobs to try to get him to buy-in before the hordes
  131. # [00:57] <fantasai> he's on spec-prod :)
  132. # [00:58] <tantek> I don't expect people to see things on mailing lists. I expect people to auto-file all mailing list email and then once in a while get to it.
  133. # [00:58] <tantek> You know, kind of like support forums. ;)
  134. # [00:58] <fantasai> Ian Jacobs was the first to respond :)
  135. # [00:59] <fantasai> Basically, I want to try to get all the content-related issues sorted first
  136. # [00:59] <tantek> clearly we need to give him more work
  137. # [00:59] <tantek> right
  138. # [00:59] <fantasai> Before we turn it over for design work
  139. # [00:59] <tantek> agree with content-first redesigning
  140. # [01:00] <fantasai> So, yeah, step 1, address feedback from spec-prod
  141. # [01:00] <tantek> I think we noted that somewhere in our project principles
  142. # [01:00] <tantek> the content-first part
  143. # [01:00] <fantasai> step 2, post to chairs@ and get feedback from the WGs
  144. # [01:00] <fantasai> step 3, incorporate that feedback
  145. # [01:00] <fantasai> then on to Phase III
  146. # [01:00] <tantek> nah, step 2 post in IRC and get feedback :)
  147. # [01:01] <fantasai> that can be 1.5 and 2.5 :)
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  149. # [01:22] <TabAtkins> hober: Holding up Images 3 from CR isn't an issue now, obviously. ^_^
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  155. # [02:06] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Think I'm done with Images 4 edits for now.
  156. # [02:06] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Gonna post to the list for feedback.
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  161. # [02:44] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Awesome
  162. # [02:44] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I just finished edits to http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-flexbox/#flex
  163. # [02:45] <fantasai> TabAtkins: switched to using a <dl>, and pulled all the author-relevant info together so no-one needs to read the Components section
  164. # [02:45] <fantasai> TabAtkins: and fixed the note about unitless zero to be more accurate :)
  165. # [02:45] <fantasai> TabAtkins: would appreciate your review~
  166. # [02:45] <fantasai> TabAtkins: to make sure I didn't screw anything up :)
  167. # [02:46] * fantasai just needs to add the property table that was requested and that should wrap it up for Flexbox edits
  168. # [02:47] <fantasai> Old version: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/raw-file/4e1547aca385/css3-flexbox/Overview.html#flex
  169. # [02:47] <fantasai> New version: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-flexbox/#flex
  170. # [02:47] * fantasai is all about making things easy to scan for :)
  171. # [02:47] <fantasai> <dl>s are great for that
  172. # [02:49] <fantasai> Bert: Can the we have the preprocessor generate empty <td>s for when lines are missing from a propindex table?
  173. # [02:49] <fantasai> Bert: We run into problems line the min-width/min-height rows in http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-flexbox/#property ...
  174. # [02:54] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Looks good!
  175. # [02:54] <fantasai> yay!
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The end :)