/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2012-08-28 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Aug 28 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  7. # [00:25] <Hixie> fantasai: please see https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17812#c1
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  16. # [01:11] <fantasai> Hixie: Yeah, TabAtkins and I are planning to rewrite Selectors 4 sometime this week
  17. # [01:11] <fantasai> Hixie: Will try to take that into account while we're at it :)
  18. # [01:12] <fantasai> Hixie: Most of the text in it right now is just copy-pasted from the old specs (Selectors 3, UI 3)
  19. # [01:13] <fantasai> Hixie: If there's other similar things on your mind, feel free to give us a dump.
  20. # [01:14] <Hixie> k
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  26. # [02:06] <leaverou> fantasai: will that include dropping the exclamation mark?
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  34. # [03:12] <fantasai> leaverou: no, we're not planning to change anything this week, just rewrite the prose to be better organized and more precise
  35. # [03:12] <fantasai> leaverou: do you have a suggestion to replace it?
  36. # [03:13] <leaverou> fantasai: no, I don't have anything against it. In fact, I think it's the feature in Selectors4 that authors are most looking forward to, so I expect there will be a lot of discontent if it gets the axe
  37. # [03:16] <fantasai> leaverou: that reminds me, there was a www-style message asking for a clearer example using 3 or more compound selectors...
  38. # [03:16] <leaverou> fantasai: link?
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  40. # [03:18] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Aug/0489.html
  41. # [03:18] <fantasai> leaverou^
  42. # [03:21] <leaverou> fantasai: I don't think that would be a common misconception, but I don't think it hinders understanding if the example includes 3 compound selectors so why not
  43. # [03:22] <leaverou> The example could be a common use case like nav li a:focus
  44. # [03:22] <leaverou> s/!nav/nav
  45. # [03:22] <fantasai> interesting
  46. # [03:22] * fantasai will put child selectors to make it slightly less pref-unhappy tho
  47. # [03:22] <fantasai> ^^
  48. # [03:22] <leaverou> (if you're wondering why that's a common use case, I can elaborate)
  49. # [03:23] <leaverou> right, it could be li >a
  50. # [03:23] <fantasai> leaverou: thoughts on prefox/postfix/both/double! ?
  51. # [03:23] <fantasai> leaverou: !nav vs. nav! vs. !nav! vs. !!nav
  52. # [03:23] <fantasai> leaverou: I guess the thing I'm concerned about is within :matches() you'd probably want to just have ! by itself.
  53. # [03:23] <leaverou> No strong opinions, but I'd vote for postfix. It's very important so it should be the first thing you see.
  54. # [03:23] <leaverou> *prefix
  55. # [03:24] <fantasai> leaverou: okay
  56. # [03:24] <leaverou> no opinion about one or two !, I think there was a parsing reason to use two?
  57. # [03:24] <fantasai> leaverou: nav:matches(! > li > a:focus) li:nth-child(odd) { background: whatever; }
  58. # [03:25] <fantasai> leaverou: no, just people saying "but ! means 'not' so it's confusing"
  59. # [03:25] <leaverou> fantasai: yes, but there's already !important
  60. # [03:25] <leaverou> so I guess in CSS ! doesn't mean not :)
  61. # [03:25] <fantasai> hehe
  62. # [03:27] <leaverou> re: matches, excuse my ignorance, but what's the parsing issue with that?
  63. # [03:27] <fantasai> not a parsing issue, just concerned that ! is very thin on its own :)
  64. # [03:27] * fantasai shrugs
  65. # [03:28] <leaverou> I can imagine authors forgetting whether they had to use one or two !s
  66. # [03:28] <fantasai> fair enough
  67. # [03:29] <leaverou> fantasai: so, I guess since you're still discussing it, does that mean it's not getting the axe? :)
  68. # [03:30] <fantasai> don't think so
  69. # [03:30] <fantasai> the only issue really is settling on the syntax afaict
  70. # [03:30] <fantasai> it's pretty straightforward otherwise, spec-wise anyway
  71. # [03:30] <leaverou> TabAtkins_ said that in an interview or something, I think
  72. # [03:30] <fantasai> implementation-wise will be a different story
  73. # [03:31] <leaverou> yup, implementations were always the problem with this I reckon
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  134. # [17:51] <krit> fantasai: ping
  135. # [18:02] <shepazu> fantasai: ping
  136. # [18:04] <krit> shepazu: I was first ;)
  137. # [18:04] <shepazu> FILO
  138. # [18:04] <krit> shepazu: how do you do?
  139. # [18:04] <shepazu> krit: how do I do what? :P
  140. # [18:04] <shepazu> krit: I'm good, you?
  141. # [18:04] <krit> shepazu: no no no. That is not the right way… FIFO
  142. # [18:05] <krit> shepazu: I am too
  143. # [18:05] <shepazu> krit: depends on how you want to optimize… FILO is much better for the case where I'm me and want to be answered first :)
  144. # [18:05] <krit> shepazu: wait...
  145. # [18:05] <krit> fantasai: ping
  146. # [18:06] <krit> shepazu: now I am fine with FILO
  147. # [18:06] <krit> shepazu: ;)
  148. # [18:06] <shepazu> :D
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  162. # [18:59] <TabAtkins_> fantasai will be at my office in an hour or so. I'll forward your pings.
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  172. # [20:36] <TabAtkins_> dbaron: We're fixing your naming issue about "flex grow/shrink ratio". Are you okay with "flex grow proportion"?
  173. # [20:36] <TabAtkins_> dbaron: We think that "weight" is a little imprecise.
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  185. # [21:21] <leaverou> fantasai: is the csswg call on Wednesdays at 9am PST?
  186. # [21:24] <stearns> leaverou: yes, it is
  187. # [21:24] <leaverou> thx stearns!
  188. # [21:24] <leaverou> stearns: do you remember the code, by any chance?
  189. # [21:25] <stearns> 78953
  190. # [21:25] <leaverou> thx!
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  192. # [21:34] <TabAtkins_> leaverou: The code is "style" on a normal handset.
  193. # [21:35] <fantasai> krit, shepazu: pong
  194. # [21:35] <leaverou> TabAtkins_: ah, right
  195. # [21:36] <shepazu> fantasai: do you know that special glyph stuff that is needed for japanese companies and family names?
  196. # [21:36] <shepazu> what's that called?
  197. # [21:37] <krit> fantasai: my question is related to http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/raw-file/tip/masking/index.html#mask-property and the compound selector
  198. # [21:38] <fantasai> shepazu: Are you asking about gaiji?
  199. # [21:38] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Jun/0323.html
  200. # [21:38] <fantasai> krit: what's the question?
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  202. # [21:40] <shepazu> fantasai: yes! gaiji
  203. # [21:40] <shepazu> thanks
  204. # [21:40] <shepazu> btw, krit… you were right, it was FIFO… :)
  205. # [21:41] <krit> fantasai: the idea is that we can use select() and the compound selector to select a child element
  206. # [21:41] <krit> fantasai: but wouldn't it possible to also do .anyClass:first-of-type?
  207. # [21:42] <krit> fantasai: or just an id select(#id)
  208. # [21:42] <krit> fantasai: which would both be ok, but beyond the scope of select(..)
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  210. # [21:42] <shepazu> hey, CSS folks.. have you ever talked about border-collapse for things other than tables? like, for simulated dropdowns on tabs, so they can share a border?
  211. # [21:43] <fantasai> no, I don't think so
  212. # [21:43] <krit> fantasai: what would be possible?
  213. # [21:43] <fantasai> given how complicated border-collapsing is on tables, I'm not sure I want to >_<
  214. # [21:43] <fantasai> krit: I'm not sure
  215. # [21:43] <shepazu> yow, that's a mean smiley!
  216. # [21:44] <fantasai> krit: I haven't thought about it
  217. # [21:44] <shepazu> >(
  218. # [21:44] <shepazu> >-(
  219. # [21:44] <shepazu> >:(
  220. # [21:44] <shepazu> yay
  221. # [21:44] <krit> fantasai: the idea is to support select(mask:last-of-type) for instance.
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  224. # [21:45] <krit> fantasai: that would select the last mask child element
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  226. # [21:45] <fantasai> krit: ok
  227. # [21:45] <krit> fantasai: <rect>
  228. # [21:45] <krit> <mask/>
  229. # [21:45] <krit> <mask/>
  230. # [21:45] <krit> </rect>
  231. # [21:45] <krit> so the last mask element in this row would be selected
  232. # [21:45] <krit> fantasai: does that make sense for you?
  233. # [21:46] <fantasai> krit: think so
  234. # [21:46] <fantasai> krit: I've never seen select() in a spec before, so I'm sure you could define it to do anything you wantefd
  235. # [21:47] <krit> fantasai: sure, I just want to make sure that the defintions is within the scope,so...
  236. # [21:47] <krit> fantasai: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/selectors4/#simple defines the simple selectors
  237. # [21:47] <fantasai> krit: ah, yes, "compound selector" is indeed the right term to use
  238. # [21:47] <krit> fantasai: and for the defintion of compound, it looks like .anyClassName:first-of-type seems to be possible
  239. # [21:47] * fantasai was confused, what was the question
  240. # [21:47] <fantasai> krit: yes
  241. # [21:48] <krit> fantasai: even if this element that has this class is not a child element
  242. # [21:48] <krit> for <rect> on the example abvoe for instance
  243. # [21:49] <krit> fantasai: <rect style="mask: select(mask:first-of-type)"> as example
  244. # [21:49] <fantasai> krit: You can define select() to get the first matching element in the document, or the first matching descendant, or the first matching child, or whatever you want
  245. # [21:49] <fantasai> krit: but there should be no difference in scoping depending on the type of selector used
  246. # [21:50] <krit> fantasai: ok, http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/raw-file/tip/masking/index.html#mask-property defines select(), but it looks like it can give more selection control than I wanted to have initialy
  247. # [21:51] <krit> fantasai: like I said, the idea was just focusing the childs
  248. # [21:51] <krit> fantasai: but compound selector can be used with anything that is valid CSS selector
  249. # [21:51] <krit> fantasai: right?
  250. # [21:52] <krit> fantasai: so how can I just select mask elements that are decedents of the current element
  251. # [21:53] <fantasai> fantasai: define a function that is scoped to children, and pass in 'mask' as a selector
  252. # [21:53] <TabAtkins_> krit: Define that it only accepts select() functions that contain a single compound selector.
  253. # [21:53] <fantasai> er
  254. # [21:53] <fantasai> s/fantasai/krit/
  255. # [21:54] <TabAtkins_> or rather, a compound selector list.
  256. # [21:54] <fantasai> krit: or define a function that uses the current element as the contextual element reference set
  257. # [21:54] <TabAtkins_> "compound selector" excludes combinators.
  258. # [21:54] <fantasai> krit: and pass in ':scope > mask'
  259. # [21:56] <krit> fantasai: ok, but if select() for instance would be defined as :scope > mask, there seems to be no need to allow compound selectors but just Tree-Structural pseudo-classes
  260. # [21:57] <krit> fantasai: TabAtkins_: sth. like select(last-of-type)
  261. # [21:57] <krit> select(nth-child(odd))
  262. # [21:57] <krit> or so
  263. # [21:57] <TabAtkins_> That seems like an unnecessary restriction. It's also incompatible with using select() for other selection needs elsewhere.
  264. # [21:58] <TabAtkins_> Add a colon in there, and you're just back to "compound selector".
  265. # [21:58] <krit> TabAtkins_: in general it would mean you can select anything in the document
  266. # [21:59] <krit> TabAtkins_: and them I am not sure if it does what the SVG WG wanted, just look for a children
  267. # [21:59] <TabAtkins_> Yes. But, for the purpose of mask-image, you specify that the select() must contain only a compound selector list.
  268. # [21:59] <krit> TabAtkins_: we wanted to allow this beside IDs to limit DOM access
  269. # [21:59] <TabAtkins_> You're allowed to restrict a value type to a subset.
  270. # [21:59] * Quits: tantek (tantek@66.87.0.41) (Ping timeout)
  271. # [21:59] <TabAtkins_> Like define a grammar as <integer>, but say "only integers greater than zero" in the prose.
  272. # [21:59] <krit> TabAtkins_: but then you can use :root and also id
  273. # [22:00] <TabAtkins_> Yes...?
  274. # [22:01] <TabAtkins_> These are fine.
  275. # [22:01] <TabAtkins_> You then say that the select() is run against the children of the element.
  276. # [22:01] <TabAtkins_> This is much easier than you're making it out to be. ^_^
  277. # [22:02] <krit> TabAtkins_: I just want to say that we wanted the select() function to limit DOM access which would not be the case if you can select by id's class or traverse the tree
  278. # [22:03] <TabAtkins_> ...you don't traverse the tree. You declare in the property grammar that it takes a <select> or whatever. In the prose, you say that the select() is limited to a compound selector list. You then *use* the select() by matching it against the element's children.
  279. # [22:03] <TabAtkins_> Selectors are boolean predicates - you can just execute them against a single element.
  280. # [22:05] <krit> TabAtkins_: in the case of HTML, you would need to wrap a mask element in a SVG element
  281. # [22:05] <krit> TabAtkins_: it should still be selectable, right?
  282. # [22:05] * Quits: Liam (liam@128.30.52.169) (Ping timeout)
  283. # [22:07] <TabAtkins_> I'd like it to be selectable, sure. But it wouldn't be, if we make select() only cover children.
  284. # [22:08] <TabAtkins_> (We should put SVG elements directly into HTML.)
  285. # [22:09] <fantasai> dbaron: How about s/flex ... ratio/flex ... factor/ ?
  286. # [22:10] <krit> TabAtkins_: that is not in the scope of CSS MAsking - sadly ;
  287. # [22:10] <krit> :)
  288. # [22:10] <TabAtkins_> krit: Sure, so I think we should just ignore it. You can't use select() to target children of an HTML element, since they'll always be wrapped in an <svg> and thus be at least grandchildren.
  289. # [22:10] <TabAtkins_> That's fine, we can fix it properly later.
  290. # [22:11] <krit> TabAtkins_: however, even if we allow single compound selecotrs (a list of compound selectors), you still have selectors like :root
  291. # [22:11] <TabAtkins_> I don't understand why you think that's bad.
  292. # [22:11] <TabAtkins_> None of the children will match :root.
  293. # [22:11] <TabAtkins_> Done.
  294. # [22:11] <krit> TabAtkins_: makes sense
  295. # [22:12] <krit> TabAtkins_: is there a "list all decedents" selector that would include grand children?
  296. # [22:13] <fantasai> * ?
  297. # [22:13] <TabAtkins_> ":scope > *, :scope > * > *".
  298. # [22:13] <TabAtkins_> But I don't understand the purpose of your question.
  299. # [22:14] * fantasai is also confused
  300. # [22:14] <krit> TabAtkins_: I wanted to select the mask in the svg element
  301. # [22:14] <TabAtkins_> Don't. ^_^
  302. # [22:14] <TabAtkins_> Keep it simple. select() is used to test the children of the element. We'll fix the problem that a <mask> can't be a child of an HTML element separately.
  303. # [22:15] <krit> TabAtkins_: so there is definitely no sense to use select() as mask value on HTML elements
  304. # [22:15] * fantasai actually thinks if it's specific to children, that should be in the function name somehow
  305. # [22:15] <fantasai> I would expect a generic select() method to act like a scoped selector
  306. # [22:16] <krit> fantasai: in which case just compound selectors would not enough. (Or do I get it wrong again? :P)
  307. # [22:16] * Joins: Liam (liam@128.30.52.169)
  308. # [22:16] <TabAtkins_> Yes, if it's a general "scoped selector", it would just accept a full complex selector list.
  309. # [22:18] <krit> fantasai: I can understand your concern about the name of the function, if it is not generic. However, we may want to reuse select() all over the place in SVG
  310. # [22:19] <krit> fantasai: TabAtkins_: so actually the concern is quite valid, especially for 'fill' and 'stroke'
  311. # [22:19] * Joins: jet (jet@206.15.76.122)
  312. # [22:20] <krit> where the selectable elements can be pattern, linearGradient, radialGradient, solidColor
  313. # [22:37] <krit> TabAtkins_: any idea how select() should look like for 'fill' and 'stroke'?
  314. # [22:38] <TabAtkins_> The same as <mask>, presumably. If we decide to stick with children only or let it select across the document, it should do the same for fill/stroke.
  315. # [22:39] <krit> TabAtkins_: again, fill can reference different element types, so how would that look like? define select() for fill as a selection of these properties and apply the compound selector on this list?
  316. # [22:40] <TabAtkins_> s/properties/elements/, right?
  317. # [22:41] <krit> TabAtkins_: no, elements
  318. # [22:41] <krit> TabAtkins_: fill is a property
  319. # [22:42] <TabAtkins_> Yes, I know.
  320. # [22:42] <krit> TabAtkins_: and can reference <pattern>, <linearGradient>, … see list above
  321. # [22:42] <TabAtkins_> Your statement a second ago doesn't make sense. ^_^
  322. # [22:42] * Quits: nimbu (Adium@192.150.10.201) (Quit: Leaving.)
  323. # [22:43] * Joins: nimbu (Adium@192.150.10.201)
  324. # [22:43] <krit> TabAtkins_: I mean select() will pre select mask elements for mask and the paint server elements for 'fill'
  325. # [22:45] <TabAtkins_> Yes.
  326. # [23:05] * Quits: jet (jet@206.15.76.122) (Quit: jet)
  327. # [23:11] * Joins: jet (jet@206.15.76.122)
  328. # Session Close: Wed Aug 29 00:00:00 2012

The end :)