/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2012-09-12 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Sep 12 00:00:01 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  91. # [17:45] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/09/12-css-irc
  92. # [17:45] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
  93. # [17:45] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 25 minutes
  94. # [17:45] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
  95. # [17:45] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
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  105. # [18:07] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  106. # [18:07] <Zakim> + +1.415.615.aaaa
  107. # [18:07] <Zakim> - +1.415.615.aaaa
  108. # [18:07] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  109. # [18:07] <Zakim> Attendees were +1.415.615.aaaa
  110. # [18:08] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  111. # [18:08] * Joins: oyvind (oyvinds@91.203.97.251)
  112. # [18:08] <Zakim> + +1.415.615.aaaa
  113. # [18:08] <Zakim> +Lea
  114. # [18:08] <Zakim> +??P33
  115. # [18:09] <Zakim> +plinss
  116. # [18:09] <jdaggett> zakim, ??p33 is me
  117. # [18:09] <Zakim> +jdaggett; got it
  118. # [18:09] <Zakim> +stearns
  119. # [18:09] <Zakim> +??P41
  120. # [18:09] <glazou> Zakim, ??P41 is me
  121. # [18:09] <Zakim> + +1.206.324.aabb
  122. # [18:09] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
  123. # [18:09] <glazou> Zakim, who is here ?
  124. # [18:10] <jdaggett> yup
  125. # [18:10] <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.415.615.aaaa, Lea, jdaggett, plinss, stearns, glazou, +1.206.324.aabb
  126. # [18:10] <Zakim> On IRC I see oyvind, rhauck, antonp, cabanier, jdaggett, lstorset, dbaron, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, koji, miketaylr, SteveZ, macpherson__, SimonSapin, drublic, victor, vhardy_, ed,
  127. # [18:10] <Zakim> ... plinss, Bert, paul___irish, hober, decadance, fantasai, Hixie, TabAtkins_, gsnedders, jwir3, Liam, stearns, isherman, krijnhuman, logbot, leaverou, arronei, trackbot, alexmog,
  128. # [18:10] <Zakim> ... vhardy, sylvaing, shans, CSSWG_LogBot, heycam|away
  129. # [18:10] <Zakim> + +1.619.846.aacc
  130. # [18:11] <glazou> Regrets: szilles (AB meeting), brad, smfr (Apple event), florian, rbetts
  131. # [18:11] <Zakim> + +93192aadd
  132. # [18:11] <antonp> Zakim, aadd is me
  133. # [18:11] <Zakim> +lstorset
  134. # [18:12] * Joins: JohnJansen (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  135. # [18:12] <Zakim> -lstorset
  136. # [18:12] <Zakim> +antonp; got it
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  139. # [18:12] <hober> Zakim, aacc is me
  140. # [18:12] <leaverou> Zakim, Lea is me
  141. # [18:12] <Zakim> +lstorset
  142. # [18:13] <Zakim> +hober; got it
  143. # [18:13] <Zakim> +leaverou; got it
  144. # [18:13] <Zakim> -leaverou
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  146. # [18:13] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  147. # [18:13] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
  148. # [18:13] <arronei> zakim, microsoft has me
  149. # [18:13] <JohnJansen> Zakim, Microsoft has JohnJansen
  150. # [18:13] <Zakim> +??P78
  151. # [18:13] <Zakim> +arronei; got it
  152. # [18:13] <Zakim> +JohnJansen; got it
  153. # [18:13] * fantasai joined, not sure who
  154. # [18:14] <Zakim> +leaverou
  155. # [18:14] <fantasai> Zakim, P78 is me
  156. # [18:14] <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
  157. # [18:14] <Zakim> sorry, fantasai, I do not recognize a party named 'P78'
  158. # [18:14] <fantasai> glazou: any additions to agenda?
  159. # [18:14] <glazou> Zakim, ??P78 is fantasai
  160. # [18:14] * Joins: rhauck (Adium@192.150.10.200)
  161. # [18:14] * leaverou I'm in a Greek island and internet connections here are as stable as a Hollywood relationship, so I might have disconnects
  162. # [18:15] <Zakim> +??P82
  163. # [18:15] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.aa]
  164. # [18:15] <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
  165. # [18:15] <fantasai> glazou: First topic is Sunday of TPAC, but we don't have any news unless Bert joins
  166. # [18:16] <fantasai> glazou: Any info on TTWF location in Paris?
  167. # [18:16] <Zakim> +Bert
  168. # [18:16] <Zakim> +dbaron
  169. # [18:16] <fantasai> rhauck: We're working on it,
  170. # [18:16] <fantasai> rhauck: if anyone has suggestions, let us know
  171. # [18:16] <fantasai> rhauck: we'll email the list when we know
  172. # [18:16] <fantasai> rhauck: hoping by end of week
  173. # [18:17] <fantasai> Bert: We reserved the room for Sunday, will be in the Hotel de la Cité Concorde, in the conference center
  174. # [18:18] <Zakim> -stearns
  175. # [18:18] <fantasai> glazou: Marie-Claire is planning a W3C meetup on Monday evening at the city hall of Lyon
  176. # [18:18] <fantasai> glazou: Will be general meetup aobut W3C and our specs and tools built on our specs
  177. # [18:18] <fantasai> glazou: Will collect items, if you want to speak, ping Marie-Claire
  178. # [18:19] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Sep/0222.html
  179. # [18:19] * stearns not sure why my phone dropped the call, getting a busy signal now. will keep trying
  180. # [18:19] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Aug/0916.html
  181. # [18:19] <fantasai> glazou: maybe defer this until Florian can attend
  182. # [18:20] <fantasai> Topic: Font Load Events
  183. # [18:20] <glazou> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-fonts/#font-load-events
  184. # [18:20] <jdaggett> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-fonts/#font-load-events
  185. # [18:20] <fantasai> jdaggett: started out as proposal from Florian (?)
  186. # [18:20] <fantasai> jdaggett: topic brought up a number of times, need for events that indicate when fonts have been loaded
  187. # [18:20] <fantasai> jdaggett: reason for this is that there could be content on the page need to be measured, can't happen until fonts are loaded
  188. # [18:21] <Zakim> +??P19
  189. # [18:21] <koji> zakim, ??p19 is me
  190. # [18:21] <Zakim> +koji; got it
  191. # [18:21] <fantasai> jdaggett: we've had several rounds of posts about font events from a couple years ago
  192. # [18:21] <fantasai> jdaggett: Tab recently proposed something
  193. # [18:21] <fantasai> jdaggett: I didn't like it, so I posted another proposal, in the spec now
  194. # [18:22] <fantasai> jdaggett: we need events for @font-face fonts b/c used lazily; not loaded until they're used
  195. # [18:22] <fantasai> jdaggett: Wanted to get from this call whether ppl happy with this proposal, flush out any possible objections
  196. # [18:22] <fantasai> jdaggett: Interface is still in flux; several ppl sent me private emails discussing certain parts of interface, things they find confusing, etc.
  197. # [18:23] <fantasai> jdaggett: Basically 2 types of events
  198. # [18:23] <fantasai> jdaggett: 1 gives you a way of identifying when all fonts are ready
  199. # [18:23] <fantasai> jdaggett: page could include multiple fonts, e.g. a bold and an italic
  200. # [18:23] <fantasai> jdaggett: It's hard for an author to track
  201. # [18:23] <fantasai> jdaggett: Also events that fire per font
  202. # [18:23] <fantasai> jdaggett: An app that wants to manage fonts very carefully would use those
  203. # [18:23] <fantasai> jdaggett: The existing WebLoader interface put together by Google is supported
  204. # [18:24] <fantasai> jdaggett: by several type [...] is more like per font detail
  205. # [18:24] * fantasai isn't sure that was minuted correctly
  206. # [18:24] <fantasai> Bert: I have no problem with the technology, just wondering what it does to the schedule of the draft
  207. # [18:24] <fantasai> Bert: Will it push back LC, or so easy will go ahead without loss of speed?
  208. # [18:25] <glazou> glazou: I read it and have no general comment; like it
  209. # [18:25] <antonp> [...] = online type services, I think
  210. # [18:25] <fantasai> jdaggett: Think it can go ahead without loss of speed, b/c ppl are very interested and sending lots of feedback
  211. # [18:25] <fantasai> jdaggett: caveat is that the OM for CSS font face rule, leftover from CSS2
  212. # [18:25] <fantasai> jdaggett: it uses CSSStyleDeclaration, which is odd
  213. # [18:25] <fantasai> jdaggett: I'm starting to hear rumblings of ppl that this isn't a good idea, switch to something else
  214. # [18:25] <fantasai> jdaggett: others are ambivalent
  215. # [18:25] <fantasai> jdaggett: Would influence this to a certain degree
  216. # [18:26] <fantasai> glazou: Could you use a CSS Rule instead?
  217. # [18:26] <fantasai> jdaggett: You need some place to define something like GetPropertyValue so you can get value of descriptors
  218. # [18:26] <fantasai> jdaggett: don't think need a setter for that...
  219. # [18:26] <fantasai> glazou: To avoid putting null CSSFontFaceRule in document, use a CSSRule
  220. # [18:26] <fantasai> jdaggett: What does that get you?
  221. # [18:27] <fantasai> glazou: In the future if we change CSSFontFaceRule [..] you will get it through CSSRule
  222. # [18:27] <fantasai> glazou: The result would be CSSRule, but you say in prose it is a CSSFontFaceRule
  223. # [18:27] * fantasai is so confused
  224. # [18:27] <fantasai> several ppl confused
  225. # [18:27] * leaverou is confused too
  226. # [18:27] <fantasai> glazou: You said that CSSFontFaceRule is subject to changes, b/c ppl don't like how it is right now.
  227. # [18:28] <fantasai> glazou: Suppose it becomes CSSFontFaceRule2 in the future
  228. # [18:28] <fantasai> glazou: That will still query interface to CSSRule, and you can use that as a reply to font-face attribute
  229. # [18:28] <fantasai> jdaggett: Don't think on CSSRule there's any way to access info currently contained in CSSStyleDeclaration
  230. # [18:28] <fantasai> glazou: No, not saying that. Saying that giving reply as CSSRule lets you have another interface in the future
  231. # [18:29] <fantasai> dbaron: Not a question of which interface, question of what we want on that interface
  232. # [18:29] <fantasai> jdaggett: Existing implementations implement the old interface, so have to consider that carefully.
  233. # [18:29] <fantasai> jdaggett: I think I need to do more research on this.
  234. # [18:29] <fantasai> jdaggett: Direct answer to Bert, but other OM issue could influence the schedule.
  235. # [18:29] <fantasai> jdaggett: If no one has other comments, then will continue to work through details on the list
  236. # [18:30] <fantasai> jdaggett: Since this is relatively major piece, once syntax worked out on the list, would like to publish another WD
  237. # [18:30] <fantasai> jdaggett: Sound reasonable?
  238. # [18:30] <fantasai> yes
  239. # [18:30] <fantasai> jdaggett: Ok, I'll work on this another week, then ask WG for publish
  240. # [18:30] <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2012JulSep/0293.html
  241. # [18:30] <fantasai> topic: CSs2.1
  242. # [18:31] <fantasai> anton: First is table box vs wrapper box and 'overflow'
  243. # [18:31] <fantasai> anton: Observed that it's implemented on table box, but only some values are supported
  244. # [18:31] <fantasai> anton: others are handled as visible
  245. # [18:31] <antonp> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Aug/0308.html
  246. # [18:31] * stearns all long distance calls are failing for me at the moment. I'll just follow along on IRC
  247. # [18:31] <fantasai> anton: I proposed some wording, hope everyone's happy with it.
  248. # [18:32] <fantasai> works for me
  249. # [18:32] <Zakim> +TabAtkins_
  250. # [18:32] <fantasai> Bert: Looks fine to me too
  251. # [18:32] <fantasai> glazou: no objection, no other comments?
  252. # [18:32] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Accepted
  253. # [18:33] <fantasai> anton: Second issue is an idea to help the wording in various places
  254. # [18:33] * Quits: jarek (jarek@83.27.237.96) (Quit: jarek)
  255. # [18:33] <fantasai> anton: going down a path we're going down a lot: defining terms we can reuse
  256. # [18:33] * Joins: jarek (jarek@83.27.237.96)
  257. # [18:33] <fantasai> anton: Want to define the term "block container element"
  258. # [18:33] <fantasai> anton: "block container box" was introduced in CSS2.1
  259. # [18:33] <glazou> slow down antonp please
  260. # [18:33] <fantasai> anton: A "block container element" is an element that generates a "block container box"
  261. # [18:34] <fantasai> anton: Don't have this wording in CSS2.1 yet, but would make fixing various issues much easier
  262. # [18:34] <fantasai> anton: I proposed this on the list, talked with fantasai, but no one else involved in conversation.
  263. # [18:34] <antonp> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Sep/0041.html
  264. # [18:34] <fantasai> anton: Looking what other ppl think
  265. # [18:34] <fantasai> anton: It's a long email, starts with motiviation
  266. # [18:34] <fantasai> anton: follows with prposal
  267. # [18:35] <fantasai> Rossen: Can I give you feedback a little bit later?
  268. # [18:36] <fantasai> glazou: Ok, let's take a week to review this proposal and discuss it next week.
  269. # [18:36] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Sep/0112.html
  270. # [18:36] <fantasai> Topic: Consuming height at breaks
  271. # [18:36] <TabAtkins_> ScribeNick: TabAtkins_
  272. # [18:37] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: I've been going back and forth on this.
  273. # [18:37] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: Rossena nd I were talking last week about edits from the San Diego f2f.
  274. # [18:37] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: one of the issues taht came up was...
  275. # [18:37] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: If you have specified height on a box, that'll terminate *above* the bottom of the page, and continue on the next page.
  276. # [18:37] * Quits: SteveZ (chatzilla@128.31.35.234) (Connection reset by peer)
  277. # [18:37] <Zakim> +stearns
  278. # [18:37] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: You wont' consume height between the cut and the next page, and won't draw there either.
  279. # [18:37] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: That seems weird when you consider floats.
  280. # [18:38] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: Normally you ahve text wrapping around floats, and eventually wrapping under it.
  281. # [18:38] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: But here, there's space you can't wrap text around it.
  282. # [18:38] * Quits: JohnJansen (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
  283. # [18:38] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: Because the element isn't visibly taking up space there.
  284. # [18:38] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: So we were discussing whether you can flow content under a broken float.
  285. # [18:38] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  286. # [18:38] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: And the answer is no.
  287. # [18:38] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: And so - should you draw backgrounds, if you're taking up space (for the float)? If you're not drawing backgrounds, what are you doing with floats?
  288. # [18:39] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: So we're considering reversing, and just making everything draw to the bottom of the page and consume height. Thoughts?
  289. # [18:39] <TabAtkins_> antonp: I think it should draw to the bottom of the page. It's confusing as a reader to see something appear to terminate, but then it's there again at the next page.
  290. # [18:40] <TabAtkins_> antonp: I think I don't want it to consume height, though. Just calculate the extra space and add it on afterwards.
  291. # [18:40] <TabAtkins_> rossen: In essense, what Anton is asking for is to have a fairly tight coupling of content and containers, which is not present anywhere else in layout.
  292. # [18:41] <TabAtkins_> rossen: You have content, which draws independently of its container (to some degree).
  293. # [18:41] <TabAtkins_> rossen: The content is free to extend to whatever extent it needs.
  294. # [18:41] <TabAtkins_> rossen: The container may or may not take a dependency on that content.
  295. # [18:42] <TabAtkins_> rossen: If your height is auto, you stretch to the height; if it's specified, you just stick with that regardless of content.
  296. # [18:42] <TabAtkins_> rossen: Let's take as an example a block container with something with clearance on it.
  297. # [18:42] <TabAtkins_> rossen: If it's height auto, the clearance int he presence of a float will extend the height of the container.
  298. # [18:42] <TabAtkins_> rossen: Back to fragmentation, we're asking the same question.
  299. # [18:42] <TabAtkins_> rossen: I have something inside which needs to be longer than it was originally (extending to the next page).
  300. # [18:43] <TabAtkins_> rossen: The container may or may not take a dependency on that content, and stretch to the content's height.
  301. # [18:43] <TabAtkins_> rossen: But if it's fixed, it's just fixed.
  302. # [18:43] <TabAtkins_> rossen: So if, in this specific case, we don't consume from the specified height, now we're coupling content and containers.
  303. # [18:43] <TabAtkins_> rossen: And then my question is, why don't we do the same thing for 'clear' or similar mechanics?
  304. # [18:43] <TabAtkins_> rossen: That's why specified height is specified - if it's exhausted, it's exhausted.
  305. # [18:44] <TabAtkins_> antonp: That makes sense to me. You're right to bring up that there's two ways to look at it.
  306. # [18:44] <TabAtkins_> antonp: The question "why is height specified?"
  307. # [18:44] <TabAtkins_> antonp: It could be because of the relationship between the box and its surroundings, or between the box and its contents.
  308. # [18:45] <TabAtkins_> antonp: If you're specifying a height because you're going to specify properties on it that rely on that height, my answer won't be good - backgrounds won't look nice.
  309. # [18:45] <TabAtkins_> antonp: But equally, if you *don't* consume height, you might get the same visual problem as before.
  310. # [18:45] <TabAtkins_> antonp: I can imagine a situation where content is fragmented onto the next page.
  311. # [18:45] <TabAtkins_> antonp: There's a gap, but it's only partially filled now by the content.
  312. # [18:46] <TabAtkins_> antonp: You lose the visual indication that there can't be any more content.
  313. # [18:46] <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: In that case, it's kinda like overflow:visible, which does look horrible sometimes.
  314. # [18:46] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: Yes, you might have a background positioned relative to the top of the box, so it looks bad if it continues.
  315. # [18:47] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: On the other hand, you may have two boxes that have a specified height, because you want them to be the same specific size (maybe they're side-by-side). If they break at different points, they'll end at different points, when the layout of the rest of the box depends on them being the same height.
  316. # [18:48] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: There's no answer that'll give us the right behavior in all cases.
  317. # [18:48] <TabAtkins_> rossen: You can also usually address this by specifying min-height instead. In the non-fragmented case, they're the same height; if height extends to higher than expected during fragmentation, it's auto height and the container will stretch as necessary.
  318. # [18:49] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: One data point is that existing impls draw to the bottom fo the page and consume height.
  319. # [18:49] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: At least in Moz's codebase, it requires an extra level of bookkeeping if we want to draw to the bottom of the page but not consume height. You either do both or do neither.
  320. # [18:50] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: We're getting to the point of having more layout algorithms with boxes side-by-side, which should be the same height, and it makes sense for block flow to have the same behavior, so you're consistent.
  321. # [18:50] <fantasai> s/should be the same height/should draw to the bottom of the page/
  322. # [18:51] <TabAtkins_> antonp: I wouldnt' object to taht status quo.
  323. # [18:51] <TabAtkins_> antonp: I think it should draw to the bottom. If it's easier, let's have it consume height.
  324. # [18:51] * hober has to drop off; Apple event.
  325. # [18:51] <TabAtkins_> rossen: Again, I don't think anyone is suggesting the opposite.
  326. # [18:51] <glazou> ok bye hober
  327. # [18:51] <Zakim> -hober
  328. # [18:52] <TabAtkins_> rossen: The visual should be consistent with the layout.
  329. # [18:53] <fantasai> TabAtkins: [...]
  330. # [18:53] <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: Agreed. I liked the ability to sometimes do good, but you've convinced me that we cant' do good sufficiently often, so let's just do the simple thing that's usually good enough.
  331. # [18:53] <TabAtkins_> plinss: My only concern is having a box accidentally overflow when it wasn't intended to.
  332. # [18:54] <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: Right, that's the time when it turns bad. But as Rossen points out, there are ways around that (use min-height), and we can always expose an explicit swtich afterwards if we want.
  333. # [18:54] <TabAtkins_> rossen: Reiterating, looking at different impls, that's the beahvior you have today with pagination. So the spec will be fairly consistent with that.
  334. # [18:54] <TabAtkins_> rossen: So if we do introduce a smarter behavior, we may be looking at compat problems.
  335. # [18:55] <TabAtkins_> plinss: I'll point out that the "impls already do this" is usually a good argument, but most impls do such a bad job at pagination, it's not really a very strong argument here.
  336. # [18:55] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: I'd agree with that.
  337. # [18:56] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: But there are cases where consuming the specified height will cause overflow, and other cases where it will prevent overflow - by not consuming the remaining space on the page, the container may be longer than expected, and *it's* parent now overflows.
  338. # [18:56] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: Two boxes that are 100% tall in a fixed-height box, side by side.
  339. # [18:56] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: I break the page, one consumes height, the other doesn't, one of the boxes will overflow its parent.
  340. # [18:56] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: So neither behavior works in all cases. It depends on the layout, and depends on the content.
  341. # [18:57] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: Both answers are 50% good and 50% bad. So, the argument to be consistent seems to win otu.
  342. # [18:58] <TabAtkins_> Bert: I think it's fine, but could you summarize the conclusion again?
  343. # [18:58] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: The conclusion is that all boxes draw and consume height as normal in the presence of breaks, to the bottom of the page past the break.
  344. # [18:58] <TabAtkins_> Bert: Okay, I can agree with that.
  345. # [18:59] <Zakim> -jdaggett
  346. # [18:59] <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: The point is that a break just does the equivalent of putting a big spacer element in there.
  347. # [18:59] <TabAtkins_> antonp: If you glue the boxes back together, it's the total height.
  348. # [18:59] <Bert> (The key is "consumes height", the border may indeed not even reach the bottom of the page.)
  349. # [18:59] <TabAtkins_> glazou: Objections?
  350. # [19:00] <TabAtkins_> RESOLVED: Conclusion by fantasai about breaking, above, accepted.
  351. # [19:00] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
  352. # [19:01] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou (9%)
  353. # [19:01] <Zakim> -??P82
  354. # [19:01] * sylvaing who's attending the call from the dentist?
  355. # [19:01] <TabAtkins_> Topic: Counter Styles
  356. # [19:01] * leaverou sylvaing LOL
  357. # [19:01] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Aug/0916.html
  358. # [19:01] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
  359. # [19:01] <glazou> sylvaing: lol
  360. # [19:01] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: I think florian's issue is that he'd like the counter styles that weren't in 2.1 to be marked as at-risk.
  361. # [19:01] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou (12%)
  362. # [19:02] * dbaron thinks Zakim can't hear anyone other than glazou
  363. # [19:02] <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: I'm fine with marking all the non-2.1 styles (the 2.0 styles, and the replacement CJK styles) as at-risk.
  364. # [19:02] <Zakim> -fantasai
  365. # [19:02] <TabAtkins_> RESOLVED: Mark the non-2.1 Counter Styles as at-risk.
  366. # [19:03] <Zakim> +??P33
  367. # [19:03] <TabAtkins_> glazou: I have one additional thing.
  368. # [19:03] <fantasai> Zakim, ??P33 is fantasai
  369. # [19:03] <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
  370. # [19:03] <TabAtkins_> glazou: Koji, you're right that I missed CSS Ruby in the list of documents int he prioritization email.
  371. # [19:03] <TabAtkins_> glazou: So please consider it included. I missed it by accident.
  372. # [19:03] <TabAtkins_> arronei: I ahve another comment on that list.
  373. # [19:04] <TabAtkins_> arronei: Did you send that list to some influentials, like Molly or Designers?
  374. # [19:04] <TabAtkins_> glazou: The Invited Experts in the WG got it.
  375. # [19:04] <TabAtkins_> glazou: I didn't ping anyone outside the WG.
  376. # [19:04] <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: I think between our IEs we ahve enough "designer voice" to be useful - Molly, Lea, etc.
  377. # [19:04] * leaverou Did I hear my name or was it my idea?
  378. # [19:05] <glazou> you heard well
  379. # [19:05] * leaverou glazou: Should I respond to that? I figured Bert will respond for W3C
  380. # [19:06] <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: I don't see anything in there that says "you ahve to be an implementor to answer this", but if Anton thought he shouldn't answer it...
  381. # [19:06] <TabAtkins_> glazou: Be sure that the entire WG's answer will be valued.
  382. # [19:07] <TabAtkins_> glazou: Lea, you have two faces in this group - on the one hand, you're W3C staff, on the other hand, you're an influential member of the design community. So we'd probably be interested in your more personal opinions.
  383. # [19:07] <TabAtkins_> leaverou: Like what devs would like the most? Sure.
  384. # [19:08] <TabAtkins_> glazou: So, everyone, ping your AC reps so we can get the surveys back in two weeks time.
  385. # [19:08] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.aa]
  386. # [19:08] <Zakim> -dbaron
  387. # [19:08] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
  388. # [19:08] <Zakim> -TabAtkins_
  389. # [19:08] <Zakim> -leaverou
  390. # [19:08] <Zakim> -glazou
  391. # [19:08] * Quits: koji (koji@222.158.227.129) (Quit: Leaving...)
  392. # [19:08] * Quits: PhilCupp (PhilCupp@131.107.147.10) (Quit: PhilCupp)
  393. # [19:08] <Zakim> -stearns
  394. # [19:08] <Zakim> - +1.206.324.aabb
  395. # [19:08] <Zakim> -lstorset
  396. # [19:08] <Zakim> -antonp
  397. # [19:08] <Zakim> - +1.415.615.aaaa
  398. # [19:08] <Zakim> -koji
  399. # [19:08] <Zakim> -Bert
  400. # [19:08] * Quits: lstorset (lastorset@91.203.96.240) (Quit: Leaving.)
  401. # [19:08] <Zakim> -plinss
  402. # [19:09] <Zakim> -fantasai
  403. # [19:09] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  404. # [19:09] <Zakim> Attendees were +1.415.615.aaaa, plinss, jdaggett, stearns, +1.206.324.aabb, glazou, +1.619.846.aacc, +93192aadd, lstorset, antonp, hober, leaverou, arronei, JohnJansen,
  405. # [19:09] <Zakim> ... [Microsoft], fantasai, Bert, dbaron, koji, TabAtkins_
  406. # [19:10] * Quits: rhauck (Adium@192.150.10.200) (Ping timeout)
  407. # [19:11] * Quits: jarek (jarek@83.27.237.96) (Quit: jarek)
  408. # [19:12] * Joins: rhauck (Adium@192.150.10.201)
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  411. # [19:15] * sylvaing is now known as sylvaing_away
  412. # [19:21] <leaverou> glazou: what's the best way to reply? Copy the table in the email client and fill it in? Is there something better?
  413. # [19:21] * Joins: SteveZ (chatzilla@128.31.35.234)
  414. # [19:21] <leaverou> e.g. a wiki
  415. # [19:21] <glazou> leaverou: no, copy/paste + email please
  416. # [19:21] <TabAtkins_> I was going to just make a list with headings for the priority categories.
  417. # [19:22] <leaverou> TabAtkins_: ah, that sounds better!
  418. # [19:22] <glazou> guys, NO
  419. # [19:22] <leaverou> :(
  420. # [19:22] <glazou> some membres may request confidentiality
  421. # [19:22] <glazou> let Peter and I handle this
  422. # [19:22] <TabAtkins_> Yeah, I was saying for *my* response.
  423. # [19:22] <glazou> members even
  424. # [19:22] <glazou> ok
  425. # [19:22] <TabAtkins_> That is, Google's.
  426. # [19:22] <glazou> ok then
  427. # [19:23] <leaverou> yes, i was talking about my response too
  428. # [19:23] <leaverou> ah, nevermind, I found a good way to do it with Apple’s Mail. I'll send the table
  429. # [19:23] <leaverou> for anyone interested: Right click the email, choose "Redirect"
  430. # [19:24] <leaverou> then you get the table without any quotation
  431. # [19:25] <TabAtkins_> In most clients, you can just select "forward" and then remove the additional headers it puts in. No additional quotation added.
  432. # [19:26] <leaverou> TabAtkins_: when you forward, the original message is usually in a quote
  433. # [19:26] <TabAtkins_> Not in Gmail, at least.
  434. # [19:26] <leaverou> I guess Gmail is an exception then
  435. # [19:27] <leaverou> Thunderbird and Apple’s Mail put it in a quote
  436. # [19:28] <leaverou> dbaron: you there?
  437. # [19:28] <dbaron> leaverou, yes
  438. # [19:29] <leaverou> dbaron: I had never seen color correction before
  439. # [19:29] <leaverou> may I ask
  440. # [19:29] <leaverou> Why is there only default and sRGB? What about specifying a custom color profile?
  441. # [19:31] <dbaron> leaverou, because the spec is trying to solve the problem that it describes in the abstract & introduction
  442. # [19:32] <dbaron> leaverou, which is finding a path through which we can migrate to actually being in a defined color space at all
  443. # [19:32] <leaverou> dbaron: so there are thoughts about extending it in the future to allow custom color profiles, right?
  444. # [19:33] * Quits: drublic (drublic@80.152.164.43) (Client exited)
  445. # [19:33] <dbaron> leaverou, I'm not sure; images can, of course, have custom color profiles
  446. # [19:33] <dbaron> leaverou, but I'm not sure it's really that valuable for CSS colors
  447. # [19:33] * Joins: drublic (drublic@80.152.164.43)
  448. # [19:33] <leaverou> dbaron: It certainly would be valuable if cmyk() colors were allowed outside of paged media
  449. # [19:33] <dbaron> leaverou, cmyk() is a mess
  450. # [19:34] <dbaron> leaverou, there's no standard for what it means
  451. # [19:34] <leaverou> there are multiple color profiles that define how it converts to sRGB, non?
  452. # [19:34] <dbaron> leaverou, I've really got to run now, though
  453. # [19:35] <dbaron> leaverou, can talk more another time
  454. # [19:35] <leaverou> dbaron: sure, lets pick this up later
  455. # [19:35] <leaverou> I'm very interested in the topic
  456. # [19:36] * Quits: drublic (drublic@80.152.164.43) (Ping timeout)
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  458. # [19:50] <leaverou> glazou: the FXTF specs are missing, is that intentional?
  459. # [19:53] <fantasai> leaverou: I'm guessing css3-background is LI because it's implemented already?
  460. # [19:53] <leaverou> fantasai: exactly
  461. # [19:53] * fantasai doesn't think border-radius qualifies as "low interest"
  462. # [19:53] <fantasai> :P
  463. # [19:54] <leaverou> once something is implemented in the big four, the community's interest shifts
  464. # [19:54] <leaverou> they don't really care much about the edge cases
  465. # [19:54] <leaverou> in my experience
  466. # [19:57] <leaverou> for example, background-clip is still not implemented correctly by WebKit, but nobody seems to care
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  473. # [20:12] <leaverou> TabAtkins_: you there?
  474. # [20:12] * Joins: arno1 (arnog@192.150.10.201)
  475. # [20:15] * Quits: arno1 (arnog@192.150.10.201) (Quit: Leaving.)
  476. # [20:17] <TabAtkins_> leaverou: pong
  477. # [20:17] * Joins: arno1 (arnog@192.150.10.200)
  478. # [20:17] <leaverou> TabAtkins_: I think I remember a discussion about this, but I can't find it
  479. # [20:17] <leaverou> in CSS hierarchies
  480. # [20:17] <leaverou> can you do things like .foo > & > .bar ?
  481. # [20:18] <TabAtkins_> The current state of the spec, no. Just this morning I sent an email to Shane arguing that we should bite the bullet and allow it.
  482. # [20:19] <leaverou> TabAtkins_: ha, nice coincidence. Was that email to a list?
  483. # [20:19] <leaverou> TabAtkins_: I've recently started using LESS to experiment a bit with these concepts
  484. # [20:19] <TabAtkins_> Nah, private.
  485. # [20:19] <leaverou> and even though LESS doesn't allow it
  486. # [20:19] <leaverou> I think it would be immensely useful
  487. # [20:19] <TabAtkins_> LESS doesn't allow it? Sass does.
  488. # [20:19] <leaverou> e..g. When using .foo as a "conditional" type of thing
  489. # [20:20] <leaverou> e.g. I want the h1 to be styled this way, but when inside section#foo I want it to be styled a bit differently, but I still want to have everything in one place
  490. # [20:20] <TabAtkins_> Yeah, definitely. Clear and obvious use-cases.
  491. # [20:20] <TabAtkins_> I'm surprised that LESS doesnt' support it, but that's why Sass is better.
  492. # [20:21] <leaverou> TabAtkins_: also, does it allow @media rules to be nested inside it?
  493. # [20:21] <leaverou> e.g. I want this heading to be styled this way, but another way in print
  494. # [20:22] <TabAtkins_> Not yet. That's another, separate thing I'd like to make happen.
  495. # [20:22] <leaverou> awesome!
  496. # [20:22] <TabAtkins_> Unrelated to Hierarchies - that should be part of Conditional.
  497. # [20:24] <leaverou> TabAtkins_: I'm not sure about that. I'm not talking about nesting @rules inside @rules, I'm talking about nesting @rules in CSS rules
  498. # [20:24] <TabAtkins_> Yes.
  499. # [20:24] <TabAtkins_> The problems that make Hierarchies somewhat difficult are non-existent for nesting at-rules.
  500. # [20:25] <leaverou> and still be able to use & inside the @rule
  501. # [20:28] <leaverou> TabAtkins_: also, is & still necessary in the beginning? I remember there was a parsing issue?
  502. # [20:29] <TabAtkins_> That's the issue I was talking about up above.
  503. # [20:29] <leaverou> is it that you have to lookahead to more tokens to realize it's a nested rule?
  504. # [20:29] <TabAtkins_> Theoretically, it requires infinite lookahead to disambiguate, yeah.
  505. # [20:30] <leaverou> due to pseudo classes, I guess?
  506. # [20:30] <TabAtkins_> In practice, it requires 1-token lookahead for anything in HTML, and three-token for virtually anything in arbitrary XML.
  507. # [20:30] <TabAtkins_> Yeah, "a:hover" looks like a property named "a" with a value starting with the keyword "hover".
  508. # [20:30] <leaverou> oh, why is it different for XML? I'd guess due to namespaces, but I don't see the collision
  509. # [20:31] <TabAtkins_> HTML has a limited set of tagnames. XML has infinite.
  510. # [20:31] <TabAtkins_> There are no collisions between html tagnames and CSS properties so far. (SVG has 5.)
  511. # [20:31] <leaverou> authors can still use invalid arbitary tag names in HTML
  512. # [20:31] <leaverou> and CSS is still supposed to style them
  513. # [20:31] <leaverou> though I'm not sure that's specced
  514. # [20:32] <TabAtkins_> Sure, but that's okay.
  515. # [20:32] <leaverou> also, CSS has to remain forwards compatible, we can't restrict the tag selector to only known tag names, right?
  516. # [20:32] <TabAtkins_> Just check the first three tokens. If they look like "ident colon ident", interpret as a selector. Otherwise, interpret as a property.
  517. # [20:33] <TabAtkins_> This effectively means we're requiring a space on at least one side fo the colon in properties.
  518. # [20:33] <leaverou> TabAtkins_: could they still look like ident colon ident and look as a declaration?
  519. # [20:34] <leaverou> for example, border-style:solid
  520. # [20:34] <TabAtkins_> No, because of forward-compat. We don't want legacy browsers to break when we add new tagnames or pseudoclasses.
  521. # [20:34] <leaverou> yes
  522. # [20:35] <leaverou> that's exactly what I'm saying
  523. # [20:35] <leaverou> my IRC client isn't helping much, it has this weird bug where I have to type /reload style to get new messages sometimes
  524. # [20:36] <leaverou> my IRC client (Colloquy) isn't helping much, it has this weird bug where I have to type / reload style to get new messages sometimes
  525. # [20:36] * Joins: jet (jet@206.15.76.122)
  526. # [20:36] <leaverou> including my messages, e.g. it seemed I didn't send this until I did that, which is why I sent it twice :(
  527. # [20:37] <TabAtkins_> Jeez.
  528. # [20:37] <leaverou> it only does it on W3C rooms for some reason, both private and public
  529. # [20:38] * leaverou if anyone has another OSX IRC client to suggest that doesn't look like crap, I'd be eternally grateful
  530. # [20:41] <leaverou> TabAtkins_: anyway, what I was saying is that many CSS files don't use a space after the colon for declarations. Especially minified CSS. We can't require that.
  531. # [20:44] <TabAtkins_> Then we're stuck. Shrug.
  532. # [20:44] <leaverou> :(
  533. # [20:48] <leaverou> TabAtkins_: is there a mailing list discussion about this problem? Perhaps someone else has an idea of how to solve it
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The end :)