/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2012-10-24 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Oct 24 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  50. # [16:57] * RRSAgent excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  51. # [16:57] * Parts: RRSAgent (rrsagent@public.irc.w3.org) (RRSAgent)
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  53. # [17:18] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/10/24-css-irc
  54. # [17:18] <fantasai> RRSAgent: make logs public
  55. # [17:18] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, fantasai
  56. # [17:19] * Joins: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak)
  57. # [17:20] * Joins: Zakim (zakim@public.irc.w3.org)
  58. # [17:20] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
  59. # [17:20] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 44 minutes
  60. # [17:20] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
  61. # [17:20] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
  62. # [17:25] * fantasai waves to glazou
  63. # [17:26] <glazou> hi elika
  64. # [17:33] * Quits: danielfi_ (~danielfilho@public.irc.w3.org) (Client closed connection)
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  70. # [17:54] * SimonSapin1 is now known as SimonSapin
  71. # [17:54] * Quits: florian (~florian@public.cloak) (florian)
  72. # [17:56] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  73. # [17:56] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  74. # [17:57] * Joins: antonp (~Bombadil@public.cloak)
  75. # [17:58] <Zakim> +??P19
  76. # [17:58] <glazou> Zakim, ??P19 is me
  77. # [17:58] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
  78. # [17:58] <glazou> Zakim, [IPcaller] is florian
  79. # [17:58] <Zakim> +florian; got it
  80. # [17:58] <glazou> Zakim, mute florian
  81. # [17:58] <Zakim> florian should now be muted
  82. # [17:59] <glazou> Zakim, unmute florian
  83. # [17:59] <Zakim> florian should no longer be muted
  84. # [17:59] * Joins: florian (~florian@public.cloak)
  85. # [17:59] * Joins: benknight (~Adium@public.cloak)
  86. # [17:59] <Zakim> -florian
  87. # [18:00] <Zakim> +??P4
  88. # [18:00] <glazou> Zakim, ??P4 is florian
  89. # [18:00] <Zakim> +florian; got it
  90. # [18:00] <Zakim> + +33.9.52.34.aaaa
  91. # [18:01] <SimonSapin> Zakim: aaaa is me
  92. # [18:01] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak)
  93. # [18:01] <dbaron> Zakim, code?
  94. # [18:01] <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), dbaron
  95. # [18:02] * Joins: lstorset (~lastorset@public.cloak)
  96. # [18:02] <Zakim> + +47.23.69.aabb
  97. # [18:02] <dbaron> There's a French number for zakim, isn't there?
  98. # [18:02] <lstorset> Zakim, aabb is me
  99. # [18:02] <Zakim> +lstorset; got it
  100. # [18:02] <glazou> not any more
  101. # [18:02] <glazou> dbaron: not any more
  102. # [18:03] * Joins: stearns (~anonymous@public.cloak)
  103. # [18:03] <Zakim> + +1.858.354.aacc
  104. # [18:03] <plinss> Zakim, aacc is me
  105. # [18:03] <Zakim> +plinss; got it
  106. # [18:03] * antonp "The number you have dialed is not in service" (the US number). Anyone else having trouble?
  107. # [18:03] <SimonSapin> Zakim, +33.9.52.34.aaaa is me
  108. # [18:03] <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
  109. # [18:03] <glazou> antonp: using SIP myself
  110. # [18:03] * Joins: oyvind (~oyvinds@public.cloak)
  111. # [18:03] <Zakim> +Stearns
  112. # [18:04] <SimonSapin> antonp: using the US number here
  113. # [18:04] <plinss> antonp: Worked for me
  114. # [18:04] * Joins: koji (~koji@public.cloak)
  115. # [18:04] <glazou> antonp: stearns used the US number
  116. # [18:04] <glazou> and he's on the call now
  117. # [18:04] * florian wonders if zakim is not logging anything, or it is is just my irc that's broken
  118. # [18:04] <Zakim> + +1.415.308.aadd
  119. # [18:04] <antonp> Does anyone know any other numbers for Zakim? For me neither the London one nor Paris ones go to Zakim. (The London one goes to a company, and the Paris one goes to a private individual!)
  120. # [18:04] <krit> zakim, aadd is me
  121. # [18:04] <Zakim> +krit; got it
  122. # [18:04] <Zakim> + +1.619.846.aaee
  123. # [18:04] * Parts: florian (~florian@public.cloak) (florian)
  124. # [18:05] * Joins: florian (~florian@public.cloak)
  125. # [18:05] <Zakim> +Lea
  126. # [18:05] <hober> Zakim, aaee is me
  127. # [18:05] <Zakim> +hober; got it
  128. # [18:05] * Joins: JohnJansen (~JohnJansen@public.irc.w3.org)
  129. # [18:05] <Zakim> -florian
  130. # [18:05] <Zakim> + +33.1.44.79.aaff
  131. # [18:05] <Zakim> + +1.253.307.aagg
  132. # [18:05] <dbaron> Zakim, aaff is [Mozilla-Paris]
  133. # [18:05] <Zakim> +[Mozilla-Paris]; got it
  134. # [18:05] <dbaron> Zakim, [Mozilla-Paris] has dbaron, fantasai
  135. # [18:05] <Zakim> +dbaron, fantasai; got it
  136. # [18:05] <Zakim> +??P28
  137. # [18:05] <hober> antonp: iirc only the us number works; otherwise, there's sip
  138. # [18:06] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  139. # [18:06] * Joins: smfr (~smfr@public.cloak)
  140. # [18:06] <florian> Zakim, I might be ??P28
  141. # [18:06] <Zakim> I don't understand 'I might be ??P28', florian
  142. # [18:06] <florian> Zakim, I am ??P28
  143. # [18:06] <Zakim> +florian; got it
  144. # [18:06] <Zakim> +??P8
  145. # [18:06] <JohnJansen> Zakim, Microsoft has JohnJansen
  146. # [18:06] <Zakim> +JohnJansen; got it
  147. # [18:06] <koji> zakim, ??p8 is me
  148. # [18:06] <Zakim> +koji; got it
  149. # [18:07] <Zakim> + +1.408.636.aahh
  150. # [18:07] * Joins: ChrisL (clilley@public.cloak)
  151. # [18:07] <smfr> Zakim, you have the memory of a flea
  152. # [18:07] <Zakim> I don't understand 'you have the memory of a flea', smfr
  153. # [18:07] <smfr> Zakim, aahh is me
  154. # [18:07] <Zakim> +smfr; got it
  155. # [18:08] <dbaron> glazou, btw, https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2012OctDec/0113.html still lists a French number, btw
  156. # [18:08] <glazou> yeah I know
  157. # [18:08] <glazou> I have to fix that
  158. # [18:08] <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
  159. # [18:08] * plinss is in a taxi to the airport too
  160. # [18:09] <antonp> ok, I think i'm in on a different line
  161. # [18:09] <fantasai> glazou: Any other items?
  162. # [18:09] <fantasai> krit: [...]
  163. # [18:09] <fantasai> krit: move discussion of masking to tpac
  164. # [18:09] <fantasai> krit: move transforms to tpac
  165. # [18:09] <fantasai> krit: ask for fpwd of ? for tpac
  166. # [18:09] * smfr changes topic to 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Oct/0680.html'
  167. # [18:09] <krit> s/?/masking/
  168. # [18:10] <Zakim> +ChrisL
  169. # [18:10] * Joins: TabAtkins_ (~TabAtkins@public.irc.w3.org)
  170. # [18:10] <fantasai> Topic: CSS4 Backgrounds
  171. # [18:10] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Oct/0313.html
  172. # [18:10] <krit> s/move transforms/move masking/
  173. # [18:10] <fantasai> glazou: deferred from last week
  174. # [18:10] * antonp Nope, spoke to soon. "This passcode is not valid": 78953.... not my day I guess :-/
  175. # [18:11] <Zakim> + +1.281.305.aaii
  176. # [18:11] <TabAtkins_> zakim, aaii is me
  177. # [18:11] <Zakim> +TabAtkins_; got it
  178. # [18:11] <fantasai> leaverou: Where not ambiguous order shouldn't matter, since this is how most of CSS works
  179. # [18:11] <fantasai> leaverou: I've been confused by this many times
  180. # [18:11] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: I support this
  181. # [18:11] * fantasai too
  182. # [18:11] <fantasai> glazou: I think it does make sense
  183. # [18:11] <fantasai> florian: In principle I agree, but wondering if it's too late to change.
  184. # [18:12] <fantasai> florian: If it's rare enough that this will flip some invalid declarations to valid an break sites, then ok
  185. # [18:12] <ChrisL> if the order is 'either way' then it won't break, surely
  186. # [18:12] <Zakim> +Antoine
  187. # [18:12] <fantasai> florian: This is always something we have to think of when we turn on things that didn't used to work
  188. # [18:12] <antonp> Zakim, Antoine is me
  189. # [18:12] <Zakim> +antonp; got it
  190. # [18:12] <fantasai> dbaron: I'm not too worried about this.
  191. # [18:12] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
  192. # [18:12] <fantasai> smfr: I think it's fine to change behavior in this case
  193. # [18:13] <Zakim> +Bert
  194. # [18:13] <fantasai> glazou: Definition we have now is in CSS3 BG CR
  195. # [18:13] * Joins: Rossen (~Rossen@public.cloak)
  196. # [18:13] * plinss is arguing with the cab driver about how car pool lanes work
  197. # [18:13] <fantasai> glazou: So, if we accept such a change, when do we do it?
  198. # [18:13] <fantasai> glazou: And where?
  199. # [18:13] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I'm ambivalent about where we put the grammar change. Can do it now
  200. # [18:14] <fantasai> fantasai: I think if we do this, we should errata the CR so it remains an accurate description of the features that are in it
  201. # [18:15] <fantasai> ChrisL: you can't errata a CR, can only errata a REC. Could go through last call or ...
  202. # [18:15] <fantasai> dbaron: I'm definitely supportive about the change in ordering, more tentative wrt change to allow 1 or zero lengths
  203. # [18:16] <fantasai> dbaron: We'd want to keep text shadow and box shadow aligned
  204. # [18:16] <fantasai> dbaron: It'd be odd to write text-shadow: red; and have nothing show up, but still show up
  205. # [18:16] <fantasai> glazou: Can do the same with border: red;
  206. # [18:17] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Would want at least one length
  207. # [18:17] * dbaron is guessing plinss wants the cab driver to use the carpool lane and the cab driver doesn't want to
  208. # [18:18] <fantasai> fantasai: I think we should defer that change to L4, to decide what the single length should mean
  209. # [18:18] * leaverou someone is typing really loudly
  210. # [18:18] <fantasai> fantasai: first length is horizontal, not that useful. Discussion on list said it's common to want only one offset, but want it vertical
  211. # [18:18] <fantasai> smfr: Would make sense for it to be just the blur radius
  212. # [18:18] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I agree w fantasai
  213. # [18:18] <ChrisL> s/really/REALLY/
  214. # [18:19] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I think we should accept Lea's proposal to allow looser ordering
  215. # [18:19] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Errata L3 for that
  216. # [18:19] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Defer anything about omitting lengths for furrther discussion and possible inclusion in L4
  217. # [18:19] * plinss the carpool lanes have a toll for single occupant and the driver thinks he'll get a ticket
  218. # [18:19] <glazou> ChrisL: :-)
  219. # [18:19] <fantasai> glazou: Ok, let's edit css3-CR and call it a clarification
  220. # [18:20] <fantasai> JohnJansen: I will point out that nobody does this right now
  221. # [18:20] <fantasai> JohnJansen: It's strictly a superset, so I think it's ok, but we need to add testcases for it
  222. # [18:20] <fantasai> Florian: [...]
  223. # [18:20] <fantasai> ChrisL: Another LC wouldn't slow us down, b/c things we're held back by are testcases and implementation reports
  224. # [18:20] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Unless someone pulls out a full complete test report next week :)
  225. # [18:20] <fantasai> glazou: Hearing consensus here, declaring resolution
  226. # [18:21] <florian> s/[...]/I am not interested in a lot of process for that, since it is a simple change, and it seems to me we are bending the rules, but if the rule keepers are fine, then fine/
  227. # [18:21] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Oct/0398.html
  228. # [18:21] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Allow flexibility in ordering for box-shadow / text-shadow. Same requirements on what's required in the declaration (at least 2 lengths)
  229. # [18:21] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
  230. # [18:21] * fantasai topic?
  231. # [18:22] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou (38%), SimonSapin (58%), florian (37%), plinss (4%), TabAtkins_ (1%)
  232. # [18:22] * ChrisL wow wow wow
  233. # [18:22] * florian is muted, this is noot me
  234. # [18:22] <glazou> not hearing A SINGLE WORD
  235. # [18:22] <JohnJansen> Actually, if Test The Web Forward goes as planned, we will be close to having a suite for BnB next week. I'm working on pulling the incoming tests together now.
  236. # [18:22] <glazou> Zakim, mute florian
  237. # [18:22] <Zakim> florian should now be muted
  238. # [18:22] <glazou> aaah
  239. # [18:22] <fantasai> TabAtkins: There's an issue on viewport length units in @page
  240. # [18:22] * leaverou fantasai: ordering isn't an issue for text-shadow, as it has no inset
  241. # [18:22] * florian I was muted already!
  242. # [18:22] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Since it references the viewport size, but it's defined to set the width of the first page
  243. # [18:22] <glazou> florian: was not enough, still echos ; you muted the phone, I muted the line
  244. # [18:22] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Should just disallow viewport-relative units in @page sizing properties
  245. # [18:23] <fantasai> This should include margin/border/padding/width/height/size
  246. # [18:24] <fantasai> SimonSapin: Values module says that ? changes if the size of pages change, but ?? is supposed to be absolute
  247. # [18:24] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Make sure to clarify that viewport-relative units are relative to ICB, not current page size
  248. # [18:24] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Need to be a bit more careful here
  249. # [18:24] <SimonSapin> "Note that Paged Media defines how the initial containing block transforms across varying page widths. This also affects these units. "
  250. # [18:24] <fantasai> TabAtkins: If ppl want things relative to the page they're on, viewport-relative units would have to become a used-value time tihng
  251. # [18:25] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Won't be super-useful for documents of varying page sizes
  252. # [18:25] <fantasai> TabAtkins: But if that's ok with WG, relatively easy thing to write up.
  253. # [18:27] * Disconnected
  254. # [18:28] * Attempting to rejoin channel #css
  255. # [18:28] * Rejoined channel #css
  256. # [18:28] * Topic is 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Oct/0680.html'
  257. # [18:28] * Set by smfr on Wed Oct 24 18:06:16
  258. # [18:28] <fantasai> Topic: CSS3 Positioning
  259. # [18:28] <fantasai> s/Positioning/Conditional Rules/
  260. # [18:28] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I asked for more time to review fantasai's suggestion, and after talking with her last week agree with her position
  261. # [18:28] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Not sure how to write it out, but just have to figure out how to express elegantly
  262. # [18:29] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Idea was that parenthesized groups have same error-handling as an anonymous function; i.e. if you don't recognize the grammar, treat it as fals
  263. # [18:29] <fantasai> TabAtkins: dbaron brought up problem that this might hide syntax errors
  264. # [18:30] <fantasai> TabAtkins: But I don't think that's a huge issue, and that's kindof the point too, for future syntax we add it's good
  265. # [18:30] <fantasai> dbaron: I also think it's not a huge issue. @supports is just not very typo-resilient
  266. # [18:30] <florian> Zakim, unmute me
  267. # [18:30] <Zakim> florian should no longer be muted
  268. # [18:30] <fantasai> TabAtkins: We can make the reasonable edits this week or reasonably soon, and that was last remaining issue.
  269. # [18:31] <fantasai> Florian: I'd like to make this change fast, b/c have implementations rolling out
  270. # [18:31] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Absolutely.
  271. # [18:31] <fantasai> fantasai: Suggest we make the edits, and just have a 3-minute conversation about publishing LC at TPAC (next week)
  272. # [18:32] <fantasai> Leif: Haven't looked into this, but sounds fine from first look.
  273. # [18:32] <fantasai> Topic: ????
  274. # [18:32] <dbaron> s/????/Anything remaining for Item 4?/
  275. # [18:33] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Oct/0513.html
  276. # [18:33] <fantasai> krit: raised an issue with transforms that we have ?
  277. # [18:33] <glazou> Topic: decompos 2D matrices
  278. # [18:33] * dbaron was that "dirk: can you hear me now? / glazou: not really. / dirk: ok, great"
  279. # [18:33] <fantasai> krit: How to decompose 3D matrices
  280. # [18:33] <fantasai> krit: how to decompose 2D matrices
  281. # [18:33] * florian can't hear
  282. # [18:33] <fantasai> krit: [breaking up]
  283. # [18:33] <fantasai> krit: [something about computed value]
  284. # [18:34] <glazou> krit: _extremely_ hard to unddrstand what you say
  285. # [18:34] <fantasai> krit: Interpolation algorithm
  286. # [18:34] <krit> ok, agree
  287. # [18:34] <fantasai> glazou: We cannot hear you, suggest to defer to TPAC
  288. # [18:34] <fantasai> Topic: display spec
  289. # [18:35] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I've been complaining about the way the dsiplay property work since I joined the WG
  290. # [18:35] <dbaron> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Oct/0552.html
  291. # [18:35] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Conflates internal/external display modes
  292. # [18:35] <fantasai> TabAtkins: And display none toggling
  293. # [18:35] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Went ahead to draw up first draft of new display spec
  294. # [18:35] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Four properties: display-inside/display-outside
  295. # [18:35] * plinss has to get felt up by the TSA now, see you all at TTWF/TPAC
  296. # [18:35] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Two other properties, bad names, 'display-box' for none behavior
  297. # [18:36] <Zakim> -plinss
  298. # [18:36] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Added value for displaying the contents in place of the box itself, i.e. as if the element wasn't there but its contents were
  299. # [18:36] * dbaron too bad we can't use 'display?' as the name for the property whose values are 'none' and 'normal'
  300. # [18:36] <fantasai> TabAtkins: And one for marker-box
  301. # [18:36] <fantasai> TabAtkins: There's only one extra functionality, and some extra complexity from splitting things up
  302. # [18:36] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Hope it will make things easier to talk about
  303. # [18:37] <fantasai> TabAtkins: [gives example]
  304. # [18:37] <fantasai> TabAtkins: yay/nay? Take on as official work item?
  305. # [18:37] <fantasai> florian: I agree with split into at least 3, a bit more discussion if we need list-item behavior as a fourth item
  306. # [18:37] <fantasai> florian: Other than that, think it's a good idea
  307. # [18:37] * leaverou plinss safe travels!
  308. # [18:38] <fantasai> Bert: This is something that we tried years ago, and I wrote it up, but it failed to become intuitive
  309. # [18:38] <fantasai> Bert: It's much easier to talk about an inline or a block in a stylesheet than to talk about inside and outside independently
  310. # [18:38] <fantasai> Bert: For cases where you say, sometimes you have to talk about things that are a block inside, we can solve with terminology in the spec
  311. # [18:39] <fantasai> Bert: Think need to talk to authors about their perceptions
  312. # [18:39] <fantasai> Bert: In my experience, it doesn't really work
  313. # [18:39] <fantasai> Bert: It was easier to not talk about it
  314. # [18:39] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Cited your work as prior art
  315. # [18:39] <fantasai> TabAtkins: For me, I just found the names confusing, display-model/display-role
  316. # [18:39] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Didn't make sense
  317. # [18:39] <fantasai> TabAtkins: But I think the names might be part of the intuition problem
  318. # [18:40] <fantasai> Bert: It was originally -inside/-outside, we changed it later
  319. # [18:40] <fantasai> dbaron: I always liked -inside/-outside better. But not sure we ever published with them
  320. # [18:40] <fantasai> dbaron: we definitely discussed them
  321. # [18:40] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Also think I came up with a slightly more intuitive combination of values
  322. # [18:40] <fantasai> TabAtkins: With fantasai's help, realized I only needed three display-inside values: block | table | auto
  323. # [18:41] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Ended up being a really simple way to do it
  324. # [18:41] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Can still use shorthand
  325. # [18:41] * Zakim fantasai, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
  326. # [18:41] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Think it works pretty reasonably
  327. # [18:41] <fantasai> antonp: I really like the approach
  328. # [18:41] <fantasai> antonp: Thought about it independently, and came up with a model similar to Tab's
  329. # [18:41] <fantasai> antonp: I think it is a useful way forward
  330. # [18:42] <fantasai> antonp: My concern, from discussing with Bert, is that he has a very different model
  331. # [18:42] <ChrisL> Inside and outside seem very clear to me
  332. # [18:42] <fantasai> antonp: He felt that grid wasn't a display model, liked the multi-column model
  333. # [18:42] <fantasai> antonp: where the layout changes as reflection of other properties
  334. # [18:42] <fantasai> antonp: Think need to think about that different way of thinking about things
  335. # [18:43] <fantasai> glazou: Your draft contains all the shorthand values and all the extensions
  336. # [18:43] <fantasai> glazou: I think authors are mostly going to use shorthands
  337. # [18:43] * Zakim fantasai, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
  338. # [18:43] <fantasai> glazou: Seems the split is mostly theoretical
  339. # [18:43] <fantasai> glazou: Not convinced we actually need the separate properties
  340. # [18:44] <fantasai> TabAtkins: It's not just theoretical, for instance, we can't have a display: table-cell that has a different internal model than display: block
  341. # [18:44] <fantasai> glazou: It's just a matter of new keywords for display
  342. # [18:45] <fantasai> TabAtkins: New outside displays won't be possible to combine with existing internal displays unless we creat combinatorial keywords
  343. # [18:45] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Yes, it's mostly about clearing up tehoretical underpinnings
  344. # [18:45] <fantasai> TabAtkins: But leaves better extension story
  345. # [18:45] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Also, pulling out display: none into separate property is useful
  346. # [18:46] <fantasai> antonp: I would really like to understand Bert's model first before adopting this.
  347. # [18:46] <fantasai> antonp: Otherwise, I'm happy to fly down this route.
  348. # [18:46] <dbaron> I think this is a good face-to-face topic.
  349. # [18:46] <fantasai> Florian: Seems good thing to discuss at TPAC
  350. # [18:46] <fantasai> Florian: At Opera, this matches well with how our code is structured
  351. # [18:47] <fantasai> glazou: What about other browsers?
  352. # [18:47] <fantasai> arronei: I think IE has some of this separation internally, but not quite to the extent we're talking about here
  353. # [18:48] * Quits: drublic (~drublic@public.irc.w3.org) (Client closed connection)
  354. # [18:48] <fantasai> dbaron: We don't really have a separation in terms of display concepts, but there are things that share the same code, e.g. blocks and inline-block both block-inside. But don't quite track the separation
  355. # [18:48] <fantasai> glazou: Let's add this to list of topics for TPAC, but give it a time limit
  356. # [18:49] <fantasai> Florian: I think discussion should start with Bert explaining how he thinks about it, b/c other than that I think everyone seems to align with this.
  357. # [18:49] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Oct/0516.html
  358. # [18:49] <fantasai> Topic: BOM precedence
  359. # [18:49] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Nobody disagrees, so I will go make that change.
  360. # [18:49] <fantasai> glazou: You saying nobody disagrees is not enough for me, Tab.
  361. # [18:50] <florian> I agree
  362. # [18:50] <fantasai> dbaron: Henri's proposing this, and I'm in no position to disagree with him
  363. # [18:50] <dbaron> q+ fantasai
  364. # [18:50] * Zakim sees fantasai on the speaker queue
  365. # [18:50] <fantasai> Leif: It would be nice to have some good tests for this.
  366. # [18:50] <SimonSapin> BOM precedence sounds good to me, though I don’t have much experience with web compat
  367. # [18:50] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Hoping Anne can help out with that.
  368. # [18:51] <dbaron> ack fantasai
  369. # [18:51] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  370. # [18:51] <dbaron> fantasai: if we're currently defining things one way, then we need to errata CSS 2.1
  371. # [18:51] <fantasai> glazou: Seems we all agree on this, let's move on
  372. # [18:52] <dbaron> Tab: OK, I'll investigate CSS 2.1 errata
  373. # [18:52] <fantasai> RESOLVED: BOM takes precedence over HTTP. Errata CSS2.1, edit css3-syntax to fix this.
  374. # [18:53] <fantasai> ChrisL: This affects UTF-16, and, if present, UTF-8
  375. # [18:53] <fantasai> ChrisL: This is more in line with XML ??? [?]
  376. # [18:53] <fantasai> ChrisL: Also gives same behavior from filesystem vs web
  377. # [18:53] <fantasai> ChrisL: Also some parsers don't have access to HTTP headers
  378. # [18:53] <fantasai> Koji: ... i18nwg?
  379. # [18:54] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I didn't hear from i18nwg on this
  380. # [18:54] <dbaron> [multiple people talking at once]
  381. # [18:54] <fantasai> antonp: Got how far in spreadsheet of testing...?
  382. # [18:54] <smfr> antonp: you're on the call!
  383. # [18:54] <dbaron> Zakim, mute anton
  384. # [18:54] <Zakim> antonp should now be muted
  385. # [18:55] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Even if i18nwg hasn't, I trust work that Henri and Anne have been doing, they've been extremely thorough
  386. # [18:55] <florian> also, if the BOM and http headers are in conflict, BOM is more likely to reflect author's intentions, as ability to modify the file is more common than ability to modify http headers.
  387. # [18:56] * antonp sorry guys, seriously embarrassed :-O My mute didn't mute
  388. # [18:56] <fantasai> glazou: Anything else on this topic?
  389. # [18:56] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Oct/0563.html
  390. # [18:56] <fantasai> Topic: breaking inline-block
  391. # [18:56] <ChrisL> s/XML ???/XML charset handling in draft-lilley-xml-mediatypes/
  392. # [18:56] <fantasai> glazou: Seems to need clarification
  393. # [18:57] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
  394. # [18:57] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: koji (42%), glazou (14%), SimonSapin (42%), TabAtkins_ (5%)
  395. # [18:57] * florian was not me, I am muted
  396. # [18:58] <fantasai> koji: Nested line boxes. Spec is not clear where it actually should page-break
  397. # [18:58] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
  398. # [18:58] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou (21%), SimonSapin (3%), [Mozilla-Paris] (60%), TabAtkins_ (8%)
  399. # [18:58] * krit needs to prepare for flight. See you in Lyon (or Paris)!
  400. # [18:58] <Zakim> -ChrisL
  401. # [18:58] <Zakim> -krit
  402. # [18:58] <ChrisL> zakim, who is playing really annoying video games?
  403. # [18:58] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, ChrisL.
  404. # [18:58] <glazou> bye krit
  405. # [18:58] * antonp glazou, sorry, nope, I'm well and truly muted
  406. # [18:58] * Quits: krit (~krit@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  407. # [18:58] * ChrisL sigh. free.fr timeout now 50 minutes
  408. # [18:58] <SimonSapin> keep this undefined?
  409. # [18:59] <fantasai> fantasai: I would leave it undefined, b/c I don't have a good answer
  410. # [18:59] * leaverou I have to go early, sorry! See you all at TPAC and/or TTWF!
  411. # [18:59] <Zakim> -Lea
  412. # [18:59] <fantasai> Rossen: Consideration we had wrt fragment breaks, predictable approach is you start laying out your line box in current fragment. I fyou happen to overflow the fragment, and this is not the first line, then you push to the next one to make sure that this is the very first line
  413. # [18:59] * Quits: ChrisL (clilley@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
  414. # [19:00] <fantasai> Rossen: At that point your inline content should simply break as any other regular container would break, ensure you'd give the line as much space as you can
  415. # [19:00] <fantasai> Rossen: This is the only kind of predictable behavior that we thought of, not sure that it's optmila
  416. # [19:01] <fantasai> fantasai: The issue is happening when you're already at the top of the page
  417. # [19:01] <fantasai> Rossen: It's the same as for a very large font
  418. # [19:02] <fantasai> fantasai: No, it's different. With a big glyph, the size of the glyph does not change it when you slice it across pages.
  419. # [19:02] <fantasai> fantasai: with an inline block, you have the option to slice it; or you can fragment it
  420. # [19:02] <fantasai> fantasai: if you fragment it, the height of the inline-block changes due to the fragmentation
  421. # [19:03] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
  422. # [19:03] <fantasai> koji: Second behavior seems clearly better
  423. # [19:04] * Bert wonders why you can't use a float if you want the box to be able to break?
  424. # [19:04] <fantasai> fantasai: Yes, but it's complicated because of interdependencies between alignment and size of box and point of fragmentation
  425. # [19:04] <Bert> Train strike on Thursday/Friday
  426. # [19:04] <Zakim> -hober
  427. # [19:04] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  428. # [19:04] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
  429. # [19:04] * Quits: JohnJansen (~JohnJansen@public.irc.w3.org) ("Page closed")
  430. # [19:04] <Zakim> - +1.253.307.aagg
  431. # [19:04] <fantasai> Meeting closed.
  432. # [19:04] <Zakim> -glazou
  433. # [19:04] <Zakim> -Stearns
  434. # [19:05] * Quits: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak) (glazou)
  435. # [19:05] <Zakim> -florian
  436. # [19:05] <Zakim> -TabAtkins_
  437. # [19:05] <Zakim> -antonp
  438. # [19:05] <Zakim> -smfr
  439. # [19:05] <Zakim> -Bert
  440. # [19:05] <dbaron> www.airfrance.us does have a "Strike action on 26 October" warning on it
  441. # [19:05] <Zakim> -[Mozilla-Paris]
  442. # [19:05] <Zakim> -lstorset
  443. # [19:05] * Quits: Rossen (~Rossen@public.cloak) ("")
  444. # [19:05] <dbaron> https://www.airfrance.us/US/en/local/information/news/news-air-traffic-air-france.htm
  445. # [19:06] <Zakim> -koji
  446. # [19:06] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  447. # [19:06] <Zakim> Attendees were glazou, florian, +47.23.69.aabb, lstorset, +1.858.354.aacc, plinss, SimonSapin, Stearns, +1.415.308.aadd, krit, +1.619.846.aaee, Lea, hober, +33.1.44.79.aaff,
  448. # [19:06] <Zakim> ... +1.253.307.aagg, dbaron, fantasai, JohnJansen, koji, +1.408.636.aahh, smfr, ChrisL, +1.281.305.aaii, TabAtkins_, antonp, [Microsoft], Bert
  449. # [19:06] * Quits: lstorset (~lastorset@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  450. # [19:06] * Quits: SimonSapin (~simon@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  451. # [19:06] * Joins: SimonSapin (~simon@public.cloak)
  452. # [19:06] <Bert> One trade union announced striked on Friday for Air France, indeed. There may be delays but Air France expects to transport everybody.
  453. # [19:10] * Parts: antonp (~Bombadil@public.cloak) (antonp)
  454. # [19:12] * Quits: koji (~koji@public.cloak) ("Leaving...")
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  458. # [19:16] * Quits: TabAtkins_ (~TabAtkins@public.irc.w3.org) ("Page closed")
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  471. # [21:01] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  472. # [21:01] * Parts: Zakim (zakim@public.irc.w3.org) (Zakim)
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  477. # [22:27] * Disconnected
  478. # [22:28] * Attempting to rejoin channel #css
  479. # [22:28] * Rejoined channel #css
  480. # [22:28] * Topic is 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Oct/0680.html'
  481. # [22:28] * Set by smfr on Wed Oct 24 18:06:16
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  487. # Session Close: Thu Oct 25 00:00:00 2012

The end :)